723:"they have significant independent coverage in reliable sources", as I pointed out and as you have now clarified was your actual meaning. There is a difference, though, between a demo, per se, and a release of a demo. Pretty moot point, however, if neither demo nor release are actually given "significant independent coverage in reliable sources". BTW, I tried to source this album further but failed. Your modified rationale (i.e. including the point you made about SIGCOV) probably does give us pause for thought here. Hence my !vote --
1006:) and is now calling 'The Roxx Regime Demos' a "demo album". There is no such thing as a demo album. Recording companies and labels do not release demos. What they release is albums and singles. The band Stryper released 'The Roxx Regime Demos' officially as an album. In Europe this album is sold officially with an official LC (label code) number. Each country in the EU has its own version of the LC number. Demos do not receive LC numbers. Albums do. Stryper calls 'The Roxx Regime Demos' an album.
1098:. That's the difference. What Springsteen did in 1982 with 'Nebraska' is the exact same thing that Stryper did with 'The Roxx Regime Demos' in 2007: taking previously recorded demo-songs to the studio, audio-mastering the demo-songs, and then officially releasing these demo-songs as an official album, with CD/album cover, LC number etc. One wonders why you decided to take Stryper's version to Afd while leaving Bruce Springsteens' Nebraska?
830:- If the nominator is now contexualising his rationale, that can only be a good thing. Better still, if this debate has moved you to prove that the album has received significant coverage from independent reliable sources then that's fantastic. Indeed: "however, they may be notable if they have significant independent coverage in reliable sources" (
1086:. In the music business, there is no such thing as a "demo album". It's either a demo recording or an officially released album. Please try to understand the difference. Bruce Springsteens album Nebraska is exactly that: an album consisting of demo-songs which Springsteen wrote and recorded himself. According to the Knowledge (XXG) entry on
696:. The controversy is not whether or not this exist, but whether or not there is enough significant coverage for this self-released demo album to have an article here and it seems clear to me that the answer is no. Almost all of these sources simply list this as existing rather than providing substantial coverage or critical commentary. —
634:
1498:- There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. Demos in their original form are generally non-notable. However if a band or record company takes the demo recording(s) and packages and releases them as an actual album then at that point it IS an album and should be judged by the same criteria as any other album.
1365:
sources call 'Roxx Regime Demos' a compilation or an album, this nominator is unimpressed by the facts. By bringing this notable article to AfD, ignoring the provided reliable verifiable sources, and by lying about & misquoting reliable sources, the nominator thus is again acting in a disruptive
552:
Neither, because I don't see this as a strict black-and-white issue. I was referencing your unnecessarily inflexible take on the term "demo" which is not even defined in the WP guideline that is the basis for many of your recent AfDs on articles that use the term "demo" in many different ways. See
490:
per Amsaim above. The nominator is hunting down articles with "demo" in the title or text and proposing deletion without further investigation. Or if he is investigating, he isn't saying any more than "assumed non notable..." The guideline on demos exists and should be observed, but the fact that
1318:
you will see 'The Roxx Regime Demos' listed under compilations. RollingStones.com listed 'The Roxx Regime Demos' as part of
Stryper's discography, however since April 2010 RollingStones.com has changed their website and thus Stryper's discography is no longer viewable. There is a huge difference
1026:
calls it an album. Numerous other reliable sources call 'TheRoxx Regime Demos' either an album or a compilation. Only the nominator of this AfD keeps on insisting that this is a demo. The closing admin of this AfD is called upon to decide whether she/he wants to go against the judgement of music
969:
source that is clearly reliable and provides critical commentary and virtually all of the sources are repetitions of the press release or simply discographies that mention the album exists. None of this amounts to the significant coverage required to make an article for a demo album. This fails
658:(and note the disclaimer at the head of that document: "Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; conversely, meeting any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept. These are merely rules of thumb...") --
834:) which you are going a long way to prove. Whether its a "demo album" (whatever that means) or an official album is a moot point, therefore, if it passes SIGCOV. Also, I am not sure the point you are trying to make by constantly linking to the nom's block history. Cheers --
632:
be deleted because that album consists of "demos" and previously unreleased out-takes? There can be no doubt that this present article needs a lot of work but I do have a strong feeling that this album is truly notable going by the sources I have so far read, as snipets like
1425:
however. I would prefer to AFG here, therefore, rather than throw accusations of POV pushing and personal agenda around. My recent change in vote take no account whatever of your personal reflections above: I recast my vote because you (just marginally) proved SIGCOV.
744:
Now he tries to find fault in the independent coverage of 'The Roxx Regime Demos'. "The Roxx Regime Demos" album has received significant coverage by numerous sources. Here is a small list of additional sources which address the subject directly in detail.
1323:
involved, and a fully mastered album such as
Stryper's 2007 release "The Roxx Regime Demos". Nowhere does allmusic.com write that 'The Roxx Regime Demos' is only for die-hard fans, the way the nominator claims. This is what allmusic.com writes:
718:
That's exactly the point I was making. I think all of us were confused by your blunt statement "Demos are assumed non-notable" which is true (per "Demos, mixtapes, bootlegs, promo-only, and unreleased albums are in general not notable")
1027:
professionals from MSN.com, RollingStones.com, Allmusic.com, MTV.com and vh1.com who call 'TheRoxx Regime Demos' an album, or whether she/he wants to follow the personal opinion of the nominator in calling 'TheRoxx Regime Demos' a demo.
1144:- I can't see you convincing each other of your respective positions in this matter, so I suggest you end this discussion now (or, better still, take it to your talk pages). I will collapse this section if you continue. Thanks --
1347:
In summary, the nominator is ignoring these facts, and is openly lying by misquoting a reliable source, claiming that
Allmusic.com calls 'Roxx Regime Demos' a demo, claiming that Allmusic.com declares 'The Roxx Regime Demos' to be
637:
seem to suggest. It is hard to source this album beyond passing mentions, however, (and the webmasters at the
Rolling Stone site seem to have deleted or moved their reviews pages). So, ignoring the nom's rationale and looking at
164:
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has gone a long way to provide proof of significant coverage from independent reliable sources. However, most are either track listings or previews and the
Rolling Stones link breaks my end (in UK), unfortunately:
231:"In general, if the musician or ensemble that recorded an album is considered notable, then officially released albums may have sufficient notability to have individual articles on Knowledge (XXG)."
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explicitly states that it's a demo (in addition to the name of the album, of course), and notes that it's only for die-hard fans. Since it's a self-released demo, it is assumed non-notable by
1014:
calls it an album as well. (The link to the
RollingStones.com entry on 'The Roxx Regime Demos' mysteriously disappeared a few days after I added the rollingstones.com link to the article.)
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I'm not lying. There is nothing about a compilation that makes it mutually-exclusive of being a demo. And if this is indeed composed of demos, I fail to see how this is not a demo album. —
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contradicts that. I have no idea where you get the idea that a demo album can't have an LC number, but that doesn't change the fact that this album is made up of demos and according to
1284:
of an album which was officially released by
Stryper in 2007 by their record company "Fifty-Three Five Records". Stryper lists this album as part of their official album discography
813:. These sources prove that 'The Roxx Regime Demos' album did receive significant coverage from reliable and verifiable sources which are independent from the subject of the article.
616:
of the songs was a demo: "except for the track "Honestly" which is taken from a later demo". Indeed, it states that the album "is an album by
Stryper consisting of songs originally
1094:. The very moment the recording company officially released these demo songs on an album, with professional audio mastering, with an album cover, with the vinyl and the LC number,
1469:
while perhaps this album started as demos, it didn't end up as demos so the naming is perhaps confusing. So I've removed the demo category from the article accordingly. Regards,
1192:. If notability cannot be verified, the article becomes unviable (irrespective of the notability or otherwise of the subject of any related article, in this case the band) --
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The nominator has hardened himself in his belief, that an officially released album by a notable band is a demo. Again he deviates from his original nomination rationale (
1358:
about this article, and in the face of prevailing evidence decides to ignore the given facts. While
Stryper themselves, music professionals from allmusic.com and from
1044:
Whether or not something is a demo and whether or not it is a compilation album are not mutually exclusive. You claim that there is no such thing as a demo album, but
690:. The distinction that you are making between the tracks being demos and demo albums being sold commercially is a false one, as you yourself point out by referring to
1256:. That said, there does appear to be enough independent coverage out there for the album to pass SIGCOV and I suspect there will be more where they came from --
124:
858:
demos are assumed non-notable, there must be extra coverage to assert its notability, unlike a standard studio album. Let's take a look at these sources:
1481:- Once the demos were compiled and officially released, they are no longer demos, no matter under what name the band (or label) chooses to market them.
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1056:, it should be assumed non-notable until there is enough significant thrid-party coverage. There is not, so the article should be deleted. —
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be deleted because that album consists of "demos" and previously unreleased out-takes?" No, because there is significant coverage, per
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instead, is this album discussed in reliable independent sources beyond passing mentions? I have no idea... The
Verifiability
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None of those sources establish notability, simply the existence of the demo, which was never in doubt. In point of fact,
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and the article itself which show that "The Roxx Regime Demos" is not a demo, but is an album released in 2007 by
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has significant coverage. I don't see what is confusing about this. Jubileeclipman, feel free to collapse this. —
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does indeed state that the album "is comprised of -- you guessed it! -- demos". But that's a moot point because
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
1288:. Nowhere does Allmusic.com call 'The Roxx Regime Demos' a Demo. This is what Allmusic.com explicitly writes:
1225:- The information could be merged into the band's article however, if it is deemed a useful addition to it --
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under the band's previous name" . If the songs were released, then they were no longer demos, QED. However,
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guideline does not define what a demo IS should allow for some flexibility in special cases like one.
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1314:. And a compilation is not a demo. Allmusic.com declares is to be a Compilation, and when you check
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by Fifty-Three Five Records in 2007 (catalogue number 0725) according to that same source. Should
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Are you doubting that this is a demo album or are you granting that it is, but is somehow notable? —
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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is unwilling to accept the simple given fact: 'The Roxx Regime Demos' is the
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Allmusic.com does not call 'The Roxx Regime Demos' a demo. It calls it a
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between a demo which is usually created unprofessionally without any
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Reliable?, just repeats the press release, no critical commentary
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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a demo. The album was released on 7 July 2007 by Stryper.
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You do not seem to understand the difference between a
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48:. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (
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Online retailer, unreliable and no critical commentary
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list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions
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it became an official album and ceized to be a demo
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1010:confirms this and calls the album a compilation.
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1525:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1452:, with a little bit can improve this page. --
742:"Demos are assumed non-notable per WP:MUSIC."
308:"The Roxx Regime Demos - AllMusic.com Review"
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1421:, the article wasn't much better. It is
428:Add to that: "officially released albums
330:"Stryper Discography at RollingStone.com"
286:"Stryper Discography on Official Website"
465:: This debate has been included in the
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1352:. The nominator is merely voicing his
608:- The article nowhere claims that the
374:"Stryper - Complete Album Discography"
1316:Stryper's discography at Allmusic.com
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
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965:As you can see, there is only
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376:. Spirit of Metal Webzine
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1342:END OF QUOTE
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1312:compilation
1299:compilation
1042:Demo albums
693:Anthology 3
684:Anthology 3
630:Anthology 3
223:Strong Keep
159:free images
54:Ron Ritzman
1471:SunCreator
832:WP:NALBUMS
251:The editor
247:Notability
241:. This is
1321:mastering
1190:WP:SIGCOV
946:Reliable
852:Rationale
682:"Should
644:WP:SIGCOV
566:OOMSDAYER
498:OOMSDAYER
474:• Gene93k
288:. Stryper
255:talk page
1366:manner.
1223:Addendum
1184:- Fails
1117:Nebraska
1113:Coverage
1088:Nebraska
1054:WP:MUSIC
972:WP:MUSIC
688:WP:MUSIC
680:Response
652:WP:MUSIC
618:released
578:Contribs
510:Contribs
404:WP:MUSIC
380:21 April
358:21 April
336:26 March
314:21 April
292:21 April
197:WP:MUSIC
120:View log
1500:Exxolon
1496:Comment
1467:Comment
1439:clipman
1432:Jubilee
1407:Comment
1360:various
1274:Comment
1265:clipman
1258:Jubilee
1234:clipman
1227:Jubilee
1201:clipman
1194:Jubilee
1153:clipman
1146:Jubilee
1082:and an
1024:vh1.com
1020:MTV.com
1016:MSN.com
843:clipman
836:Jubilee
732:clipman
725:Jubilee
667:clipman
660:Jubilee
606:Comment
524:Comment
449:clipman
442:Jubilee
396:Comment
259:Stryper
235:Stryper
165:WP refs
153:scholar
93:protect
88:history
1428:WP:HEY
1411:PRODed
1382:Lying?
1368:Amsaim
1250:Amsaim
1182:Delete
1100:Amsaim
1029:Amsaim
815:Amsaim
721:unless
656:advice
648:policy
263:Amsaim
137:Google
97:delete
1363:other
1328:QUOTE
1292:QUOTE
856:Since
828:Reply
610:album
180:JSTOR
141:books
114:views
106:watch
102:links
16:<
1504:talk
1487:talk
1479:Keep
1458:talk
1450:Keep
1415:WP:V
1372:talk
1286:here
1282:name
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1188:and
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1104:talk
1080:demo
1033:talk
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640:WP:V
635:this
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574:Talk
556:here
506:Talk
488:Keep
478:talk
463:Note
438:will
436:not
382:2010
360:2010
338:2010
316:2010
294:2010
267:talk
173:FENS
147:news
110:logs
84:talk
80:edit
58:talk
46:keep
1142:End
974:. —
967:one
948:and
654:'s
614:one
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434:may
430:may
406:. —
243:not
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187:TWL
122:•
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