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thats how we deal with things of borderline or a little less than really adequate notability. If they were notable, we;'d need separate articles, and nobody is saying that (I hope), Nominating combination articles for a deletion will subvert all possible compromise on fiction. I have tried to argue that combining most individual character articles into articles like these preserve the necessary content in compact form. Some people have said this might not be enough, because then the combination articles will be deleted--and then the articles about the characters as a group, and all reduced to bare lists of names. This nomination and the support for it justifies their doubts. To justify the deletion, one would have to say the entire group of them are of no significance to the fiction as a whole, which is a little disproportionate an over-reaction. I cannot tell if this string of nominations against characters and character groups in this fiction is a statement that the fiction as a whole in not important enough for detailed coverage (about which I have no real opinion), or whether no fiction at all should get detailed coverage. If the latter, its the attempt of a small group to wear down the opposition. They may be strong enough to succeed in their ambitious program to destroy popular culture coverage--one of the two great high points of
Knowledge (XXG) coverage (computer technology is the other). Incidentally, NOT PLOT only applies to the coverage of the fiction as a whole in Knowledge (XXG), not individual articles. That was the basic compromise to save the entire clause from deletion. ~~
1807:- Another editor beat me to making the same point at another AfD; I'll make it here: despite the ARS tags and several days at AfD, I don't see that anyone has offered up any sort of sourcing to establish notability for this topic. The closest would be the links above -- but, not really, since they just offer blurb summaries of various Honorverse books. Can anyone point toward a source that asserts just that understanding treecats is important to understanding Honorverse? Or a source that might actually meet the threshold of
1766:. Describes an important concept and important characters in a particularly notable series of books. It would be impossible to gain an adequate understanding of the series without this content existing, so at most it should be merged somewhere, but I really don't think that's appropriate: here is the best location for it. Here are sources that show it is considered an important aspect of the series by reviewers:
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Those 150K google hits quickly degenerate into cat scratching trees and other things unrelated to this topic -- that's why I pointed toward the same search in my deletion rationale. Beyond that, the ones that actually relate to this H'verse topic are flickr pictures, Knowledge (XXG) mirrors, and fan
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article s split out of the treecat article some time ago. Various proposasl to reinclude it have not gotten very far. The urge to delete can be taken too far as in this case. Merge of the list into
Honorverse characters is also proposed (and re proposed) -- see the talk page fo rthe list of treecats
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All of those sources discuss treecats in passing reference; there's nothing at any of them that suggests overarching importance within the series, let alone to the real world. The nature of treecats/their role in the series is already covered in sufficient detail at individuals' entries at List of
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Changed my vote, because, re-examining, I see they have already been merged as far as useful--except for possibly combining the two articles. No more of the plot is used than needed to give context. The notability of the individual items of merged content does not have to be demonstrated, because
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about notability guidelines for fiction: "However, note that strict application of these guidelines to fictional subjects is controversial, and does not enjoy a clear consensus". I'd like to as for a keep for this article on this ground also. Especially since the recently proposed guideline there
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a small amount of this somewhere in the
Honorverse, There is no need for something too have separate notability to be merged as part of an article. None of the delete arguments given here apply as against a merge. The list is not indiscriminate, for it contains only the items in this particular
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We have here an excess of exclusionism, and without a real need to conserve disk storage, the bits saved are not sufficient to justify deletion. And, lack of notablility can't be justified in comparison to the multitude sof articles about records issued by obscure band.s Indeed, of article about
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both articles. The series as a whole is important in the sense that a best seller (or in this case multiple bestsellers) is important. It is also the subject of an active forum discussion (at the publisher's site), and has attracted several other writers who have published stories in the series
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We don't have to, since those are just guidelines/suggestions, not policy, and can be ignored. They are just suggestions on how to determine if something should remain, not binding laws. Does this article hurt wikipedia in any possible way? If someone wasn't interested in the topic, are they
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For reasons mentioned above. Its perfectly legitimate encyclopedic content, with enough information to fill its own page. I'm against any attempt to merge it, and certainly would object to someone trying to delete it simply because they don't like it, believe they are helping the wikipedia by
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But it's not in any way a significant part of the work in the universe that we live in. You don't need to know much more than that they're sapient tree-dwelling cats that rarely develop an empathic bond with humans to understand the
Honorverse novels or understand our articles on the Honorverse
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Important to the real world? What are you talking about? 99% of the stuff on the wikipedia isn't important, its just interesting entertainment. 99% of the articles on insects are about useless ones you couldn't possibly have any reason to need to know anything about. But some people enjoy
1050:. If this would ever be appropriate for an encyclopedia it would have to be covered from an out-of-universe perspective looking in at the topic and analyizing its significance in the real world. If this is impossible, which I highly suspect it is, the article doesn't belong here.
417:. Many of Honorverse concpets are not notable and should be merged or transwikified, granted. This one is, undoubtedly, one of the biggest exceptions. PS. One thing that we could consider is to merge the list of treecats into treecat article, or the
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learning about bugs, so its there, it entertainment for them. Do you think learning about every Roman
Emperor, or ancient civilization, is important to the real world in any possible way? Knowledge (XXG) is mostly entertainment, that's it.
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Other than that, you used a lot of words to say "This subject is important to the Honor
Harrington universe, and must therefore be kept." Unfortunately, its significance in the universe where I keep my shirts hasn't been shown, and
234:? The articles on this particular fantasy series aren't very well structured, but I'm not familiar with the books (and, on reading the Treecat article, I don't think I want to be) so can't really suggest how to improve this issue.
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Knowledge (XXG) isn't a fansite. It isn't a meta-fansite. Knowledge (XXG) is in all respects a discriminate encyclopedia, we don't let just anything on. We have rigourous guidelines of inclusion which work off of a definition of
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is redundant with the main Honor
Harrington character list, except that it's also crammed with tons and tons of incidental and sometimes even nameless characters. Posit that this is true, and disposing of it subverts no
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wikipedia is not a fan site (there are many many places on the internet for this kind of stuff) and there are no sources independent of the subject that establish this as a notable subject on its own -- it's a plot
1409:. The first is a cluttered, in-universe mess of unreferenced plotcrap, excessive detail, and original research. The second is crufty list of non-notable characters and plot details, trivia, and original research.
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subject, count. Did you find anything to support the vast gobbets of unsourced analysis and factual claims in this article, from statememts about the sizes of these things to analysis of their sense of humour?
1092:. The topic of "treecat" has not received significant coverage in reliable, third-party sources and despite what some would like us to believe, Knowledge (XXG) IS still an encyclopedia, and NOT a fansite. --
1537:. This is not an issue, however, if the merged content is not merely copied and pasted, but instead completely rewritten so that only uncopyrightable facts are transferred, not copyrightable expression.
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Honorverse characters. Were treecats so important to the series, I suspect both our and the
Honorversepedia's entries on the overall franchise would actually make more than passing mention, too. --
913:- It is to your benefit you find much of it interesting entertainment. But if that is the limit of your perspective on the project, I don't see much use for (engaging with) you. Happy editing. --
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Entirely unreferenced in-universe trivia and plot summary. No assertion of notability. Google/Google Books searches yield only primary sources, wiki(a) and fan sites. Article and list fail
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And my example of Asimov was more relevant than you make it seem. Because we are building an encyclopedia here, and if something needs to be here, because it has potential, than we should
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See!? I found a real world influence of treecats (apart from the forum username), and added it to the article. And I am sure this is only the beginning: Asimov also became famous slowly.
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sub-fiction. I notice that Jack has chosen to comment on an article after A nobody placed a rescue tag on it, although he has been asked at AN/I to stay away from situations like this.
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Can you tell us why we should follow the suggested guidelines, and how they help us in this case? They are just suggestions on how to improve the wikipedia, but you are suppose to use
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obscure bands. Or the vast number of geographical stubs about nations with good geodetic surveys. Personal distaste is insufficient, and deletion for such reasons is a discredit to WP.
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likely to ever find it? Is it potentially interesting or useful to some people? Is there enough information here to warrant its own article, and not be merged with other things?
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has a bit of material (other than the story) but I agree, WP:N looks hard to meet. There are many reviews that mention treecats, but none go into great detail that I can find.
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deleting every fiction article they can get away with, or because of their interpretation of a suggested guideline, which aren't bonding anyway, they guidelines not policy.
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but the community ultimately decides to delete the content, all your mergers must be undone. (This is necessary in order to remain compliant with the requirements of
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this article should be deleted because it doesn't meet the relevant notability guideline, and because the content is just not suitable for an encyclopedia as it fails
207:- I think the nominator's hit the nail on the head. You can't justify articles like these with only primary sources, and I can't find any proper ones either.
960:, but it sells enough for its author to keep getting published. Treecats are, at times, very significant to the plot, hardly a mere "plot element". -
956:- True, it's not a fan site. It's a meta-fansite. Which fiction do you keep, and which do you toss? The Honorverse is popular, not on the level of
1008:? What sort of significance is needed? Are sales figures important, or just cultural references? How long do you allow for either to develop? -
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I'd await the outcome of the discussion anyway. Just meant that I'm ready to do the merge as soon as consensus would show merge (as it deserves).
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seems to suggest other criteria, e.g. inherited notability (as in this case, where notability can be inherited from the
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an article may be deleted if it doesn't meet the notability guidelines. All of the points that the nominator brings up are valid and per
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Yeah, treecats are major characters in some of the stories. If you need specific stories specified, say so. oooo, alliteration! -
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978:? Being important within fiction is not the same as being important to the real world, which is the perspective called for per
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Then can you articulate a reason to make an exception to GNG for this content, without resorting to empty assertions like, "
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the list into the list of characters article, the article into the glossary article, and transwiki to the
Honorverse wiki.
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here, just bringing together information, which is an editors job. The problem is locating the source for all the things.
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Can you point to any third-party that has recognized the importance of tree cats such that they've offered the topic
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are major characters in the series, so I fail to see why the list has been nominated for deletion. The nominator has
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Interesting thread; if they don't want this stuff, why would we? We need a new WP:SHORTCUT to the effect that
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It's a problem, no lie. Finding a significance to fictional characters is tough to show. Does
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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not to an encyclopedia. The world of imagination is an equal part.. BTW, I wonder if anyone
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article is about an important (and it seems increasingly so) species in this universe. The
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99% of the stuff on the wikipedia isn't important, its just interesting entertainment
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you cite, I don't see much use in try to engage with you any more. Happy editing. --
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Fame has nothing to do with it. Neither does Asimov, in fact. Sources, for
1179:. Complete lack of any assertion of notability whatsoever, clear failure of
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1684:, and in the real world, it's a minor part of a series of novels. So minor
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460:. Excessive in-universe detail. Apparently part of a very large Honorverse
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1492:. If any of this information is worth keeping, it is worth including in
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nb: it's never about saving space; the database only grows. Cheers,
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through significant coverage from reliable sources. Additionally,
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article (as of course they would), and they consider this content
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1320:. Much as I'd like to justify this one, I'm not sure I can.... --
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1722:. You must be joking. No real-world notability whatsoever.
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list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions
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novels. That other stuff exists doesn't change this. -
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list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions
1084:that IS a valid reason to delete it. It also fails
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The notion that notability is inherited is specious
1686:nobody has seen fit to comment in reliable sources
1549:Thanks for the tip. That's a mistake I've made. /
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1838:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1525:before merging any part of the article. If you
1385:requires significant coverage in independent
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1811:offering third-party critical commentary? --
1682:we treat it as an artefact of the real world
441:sites. This doesn't establish notability. --
1496:, regardless of the outcome of this AfD. /
1034:which hasn't been met in this article. Per
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1267:(logical transwiki target) already have a
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269:(below) because both are acceptable to me.
1429:: This debate has been included in the
1118:: This debate has been included in the
542:All of the important ones are listed at
817:Given your apparently tenuous grasp of
380:I don't think anyone's pointed toward
1474:Merge proposed and ready to execute.
1154:Knowledge (XXG) is not a plot summary
425:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
1275:. Perhaps this will only strengthen
359:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (fiction)
1318:Honorverse concepts and terminology
251:I feel this article has potential.
232:List of planets in the Honorverse#S
1459:because both are acceptable to me.
710:Question for those suggesting keep
575:it to the character list article?
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1004:herself have significance? Does
712:- Can any of you demonstrate the
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1629:that's the universe that matters
489:Thanks for that link ;) Cheers,
317:Those can be found. There is no
1337:as more excessive in-universe,
1199:per the other comments above;
865:what Knowledge (XXG) calls for
337:be bold and ignore a few rules
48:due to insufficient sourcing.
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546:. I know this series fine. -
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259:) 13:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
384:-- in its absence, we have
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413:. Per Debresser, and per
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1203:more appropriate for
1201:another heap of edits
1521:You should exercise
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951:
933:
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929:
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925:
847:
846:
845:
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707:
675:
658:
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647:
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597:universe. The
591:
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526:WP:IDONTKNOWIT
515:
498:
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124:
65:
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25:
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15:
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1542:Jack Merridew
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1471:
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1454:
1451:I voted both
1448:
1445:
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1439:
1438:Jack Merridew
1432:
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1422:
1417:
1412:
1408:
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1322:SarekOfVulcan
1319:
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1303:
1302:Jack Merridew
1299:
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1286:
1282:
1278:
1274:
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1247:Cameron Scott
1244:
1241:
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1234:
1230:
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1213:
1210:
1209:Jack Merridew
1206:
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1198:
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1190:
1188:
1187:sephiroth bcr
1182:
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977:
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952:
950:
946:
942:
941:Bali ultimate
937:
934:
924:
920:
916:
912:
909:
908:
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904:
903:
880:
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878:
874:
870:
866:
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861:
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856:
852:
848:
840:
836:
832:
828:
825:and even the
824:
820:
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766:
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729:
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723:
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711:
708:
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679:
676:
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659:
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651:Jack Merridew
648:
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641:
637:
632:
630:
622:
621:
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616:
612:
604:
600:
595:
592:
586:
582:
578:
577:70.29.213.241
574:
570:
569:
568:
563:
559:
554:
552:
545:
541:
540:
539:
535:
531:
530:70.29.213.241
527:
523:
519:
516:
514:
510:
506:
505:70.29.213.241
502:
499:
495:
492:
491:Jack Merridew
488:
487:
486:
481:
477:
472:
470:
463:
462:walled garden
459:
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369:
365:
360:
357:As stated in
356:
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316:
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310:
306:
301:
297:
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287:
283:
282:
281:
277:
273:
268:
264:
261:I voted both
258:
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98:
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55:
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40:
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33:
27:
26:
19:
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1657:
1635:
1588:
1522:
1520:
1488:
1456:
1455:(above) and
1452:
1446:
1426:
1411:Doctorfluffy
1406:
1374:
1355:
1334:
1313:
1276:
1242:
1226:
1221:
1220:
1217:
1214:
1196:
1186:
1176:
1148:for lacking
1145:
1132:
1125:AnmaFinotera
1115:
1102:
1095:AnmaFinotera
1073:
1051:
1026:
958:Harry Potter
953:
935:
910:
884:
791:
733:
709:
683:
677:
660:
628:
593:
572:
550:
521:
520:some of the
517:
500:
468:
457:
410:
299:
266:
262:
248:
227:
216:
210:
204:
172:
49:
45:
43:
31:
28:
1742:—Preceding
1623:compromise.
1595:—Preceding
1518:especially:
1389:sources. /
1387:third-party
1261:WP:PRESERVE
1181:WP:NOT#PLOT
765:it's useful
1748:TomCat4680
1300:, Cheers,
1263:die-hards—
1207:. Cheers,
1150:notability
1080:, and per
1032:notability
1010:Denimadept
962:Denimadept
851:Denimadept
714:notability
1690:A Man In
1633:A Man In
1568:Debresser
1476:Debresser
1462:Debresser
1449:the two.
1356:Weak keep
1279:votes. /
665:JBsupreme
626:A Man In
548:A Man In
466:A Man In
368:Debresser
341:Debresser
323:Debresser
286:Debresser
272:Debresser
253:Debresser
1756:contribs
1744:unsigned
1704:past ops
1700:conspire
1647:past ops
1643:conspire
1609:contribs
1597:unsigned
1540:Cheers,
1527:are bold
1343:Eusebeus
1136:contribs
1106:contribs
939:element.
640:past ops
636:conspire
606:article.
573:redirect
562:past ops
558:conspire
522:treecats
480:past ops
476:conspire
187:WP:IINFO
121:View log
1490:Be bold
1269:Treecat
1168:contrib
1122:. — --
1086:WP:PLOT
1044:WP:PLOT
763:" and "
599:treecat
518:Comment
382:WP:FICT
305:Uncle G
236:Tevildo
183:WP:PLOT
145:protect
140:history
88:protect
83:history
71:Treecat
63:Treecat
52:MBisanz
1809:WP:GNG
1775:JulesH
1724:Stifle
1720:Delete
1407:Delete
1383:WP:GNG
1375:Delete
1339:WP:NOT
1335:Delete
1243:Delete
1197:Delete
1177:Delete
1146:Delete
1090:WP:WAF
1082:WP:DEL
1074:Delete
1048:WP:WAF
1046:, and
1027:Delete
984:WP:WAF
980:WP:GNG
936:Delete
827:WP:IAR
823:WP:NOT
819:WP:ENC
661:Delete
458:Delete
386:WP:GNG
205:Delete
175:WP:GNG
149:delete
116:delete
92:delete
46:delete
1813:EEMIV
1790:EEMIV
1693:Bl♟ck
1636:Bl♟ck
1514:See:
1457:merge
1447:Merge
1362:Hobit
1316:into
1314:Merge
1222:Merge
1205:Wikia
1064:Space
988:EEMIV
915:EEMIV
901:Focus
869:EEMIV
831:EEMIV
808:Focus
769:EEMIV
767:"? --
750:Focus
718:EEMIV
700:Focus
629:Bl♟ck
551:Bl♟ck
501:Merge
469:Bl♟ck
443:EEMIV
430:talk
394:EEMIV
267:merge
228:Merge
191:EEMIV
179:WP:RS
166:views
158:watch
154:links
119:) – (
109:views
101:watch
97:links
16:<
1817:talk
1794:talk
1779:talk
1764:Keep
1752:talk
1728:talk
1688:. -
1678:this
1668:talk
1631:. -
1605:talk
1589:Keep
1572:talk
1531:GFDL
1480:talk
1466:talk
1453:keep
1427:Note
1366:talk
1347:talk
1326:talk
1277:Keep
1251:talk
1233:talk
1183:. —
1164:talk
1159:Erik
1130:talk
1116:Note
1100:talk
1088:and
1078:WP:N
1059:From
1054:Them
1014:talk
992:talk
986:. --
966:talk
954:Keep
945:talk
919:talk
873:talk
867:. --
855:talk
835:talk
785:and
773:talk
722:talk
678:Keep
669:talk
615:talk
594:Keep
581:talk
534:talk
509:talk
447:talk
411:Keep
398:talk
392:. --
372:talk
345:talk
327:talk
309:talk
300:this
290:talk
276:talk
265:and
263:keep
257:talk
249:Keep
240:talk
211:Reyk
195:talk
189:. --
162:logs
136:talk
132:edit
105:logs
79:talk
75:edit
1676:To
1663:DGG
1658:has
1601:DGG
1551:edg
1498:edg
1436:--
1391:edg
1281:edg
1228:DGG
528:.
421:.--
218:YO!
1819:)
1796:)
1781:)
1773:.
1758:)
1754:•
1730:)
1702:-
1670:)
1645:-
1611:)
1607:•
1574:)
1482:)
1468:)
1433:.
1381:,
1368:)
1349:)
1328:)
1253:)
1235:)
1170:)
1166:•
1138:)
1108:)
1016:)
994:)
982:,
968:)
947:)
921:)
875:)
857:)
837:)
821:,
775:)
724:)
671:)
638:-
617:)
611:ww
583:)
560:-
536:)
511:)
478:-
449:)
400:)
388:.
374:)
347:)
339:.
329:)
311:)
292:)
278:)
242:)
197:)
185:,
181:,
177:,
164:|
160:|
156:|
152:|
147:|
143:|
138:|
134:|
107:|
103:|
99:|
95:|
90:|
86:|
81:|
77:|
1815:(
1792:(
1777:(
1750:(
1726:(
1706:)
1698:(
1666:(
1649:)
1641:(
1603:(
1570:(
1558:☭
1555:☺
1505:☭
1502:☺
1478:(
1464:(
1418:)
1414:(
1398:☭
1395:☺
1364:(
1345:(
1324:(
1288:☭
1285:☺
1249:(
1231:(
1162:(
1133:·
1128:(
1103:·
1098:(
1012:(
990:(
964:(
943:(
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898:m
895:a
892:e
889:r
886:D
871:(
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833:(
805:m
802:a
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796:r
793:D
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747:m
744:a
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735:D
720:(
697:m
694:a
691:e
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685:D
667:(
642:)
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579:(
564:)
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532:(
507:(
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427:|
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370:(
343:(
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288:(
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168:)
130:(
123:)
113:(
111:)
73:(
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