1543:. That last part is, for me, very important. Above, I mentioned that the lasting impact of this plot will likely hinge on whether it was opportunistic or strategic. Expanding on that we might see lasting impact if it changes government policies towards Islamic schools beyond the immediate rhetorical cries for 'something to be done'. We could also see lasting impact if this is the genesis of similar attacks or for calls by AQ et.al. or ISIS et.al. to target children in a similar manner.
1706:
1083:- we are unable at this time to assess future coverage to assess historicity. We do however have wide, international, multi-lingual coverage of this crime - and no reason to assume such coverage will cease, therefore we should err on the side of retaining the article (on the assumption coverage will continue).
607:
at best. Terrorist plots are a dime a dozen. This one was unique and sensational in that it targeted young children in a very direct way but I do not see it, based on current reporting, as 'one for the textbooks'. If there is reporting beyond the initial sensationalism or if later investigation shows
548:
You don't know what my view is. You may have missed the part where I didn't actually say "delete", for instance: you think this is all black and white? We can't think and discuss? I'm not talking about a "logic"--I'm talking about an attitude. And pardon me if I don't have all that much faith in your
1597:
and is not an argument for keeping an article in and of itself. Even with the dozens of articles published we have, really, only a few bare facts about him and the crime. Once the
Charity Commission's report comes out there likely be more information. In any case, I could support an article/stub on
691:
to young children. That has not, to my knowledge, been seen in the West. If the case is going to be studied for anything it will be that but until more information comes out we will not know. Maybe they will find ISIS documents suggesting this - like the call to use cars. Then again it might simply
326:
case do you think is not noteworthy? It's not a run-of-the-mill crime. Its hard to believe that convictions for terrorism in the Old Bailey are so commonplace that they are now not notable? On top of that, does not his role in training jihadi children make his case very unique. If you can to so
1099:
The motivation for the crime or the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy—such that it is a well-documented historic event. Generally, historic significance is indicated by sustained coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources which persists beyond
1053:
I've just looked at NCRIME and it says we need a 'historic' crime with enduring coverage (notnews), so he fails NCRIME in my opinion. He could still be included according to GNG but the whole article is about his crime from what I can tell so there are no sources to support GNG. You've linked to
1102:. I think that is a definite fail there. I think you want to keep on the basis of WP:RAPID that more information may come to light. It isn't impossible there are more crimes from him to come that may tip this into 'Historic' event crime, but I'm doubtful. (I will update my usage of notnews).
1410:
That can hardly be termed 'continuing coverage' it is a brief mention with no new information or analysis. It is, literally, three sentences which, along with three sentences about the prior terrorist-of-the-month, serves as an intro to a story which goes on to discuss neither.
740:
given the level of coverage. A rename is perhaps possible, though in this case the name of the perp is the most likely search term (unless this is a wider ring in the schools - in which case a case name would be more appropriate for the
1535:. Then I read the articles and saw they were just one line mentions. What I, personally, would like to see to show this has 'continuing coverage' is at least one source from outside the 'flash converge' time that would be considered
458:
That is a good option. See, what happens is someone writes something up too soon, and then they say "ah well it may become more widely covered and it would be a shame to delete it." It makes sense, of course, from their perspective.
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There is plenty of coverage but so far nothing to prove that NOTNEWS doesn't apply. That's the problem with people reading the newspaper and writing something up immediately. NOTNEWS should be an attitude shared by all writers.
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As to 'one-unique thing' most of these self-radicalized plots follow a similar trajectory and from my reading this one was no different until you get to the kids. There was a long term attempt to spread the radicalization
767:(some of the content should be moved). If there is support for a rename - I'll switch my keep/rename to rename/keep. I am not averse to keeping the current article, but I think a plot-focused article is more appropriate.
415:
So it seems ill advised to delete a page so early - sure if in 6 months there is only tumble-weed here - then delete it. But until then, doesn't hurt Wiki to not come up empty if people reading about Haque want to
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All you did in your !vote was list three guidelines without explaining how they are relevant to this subject. But yeah, the arguments for deletion are somehow "weaker" because you, an editor who is correct just
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165:
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be a lesson to both article creator and Nom, taking time to create a better article would have saved time and effort for editors at this AfD, and AfD during which the arguments for delete have rapidly become
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yeah, I do that a lot, too. People make persuasive arguments. Or something happens to suddenly make a non-notable topic notable. Or someone figures out the right keywords, or the accurate name to search,
952:
Meanwhile, a Fagin-like ISIS operative who planned a bloody blitz targeting gay nightclubs in London has a secret. Terror teacher Umar Haque, 25, was a frequent flier looking for transgender prostitutes...
405:
On that basis the Wiki article on Anders
Behring Breivik would have been deleted -but that article in fact has evolved over time and is still being edited in the last month: and spun off other pages like
1843:
improvement over a poorly-written article on a living person. Cannot say notability has been established either way, but that seems to be a secondary issue for these types of subjects -- unfortunately.
549:
knowledge of
Knowledge (XXG)'s guidelines, given your proclivity to basing content on primary sources and opinion pieces. So "don't personalise this"--I'm going by what I know of your edits.
624:
Delete as a BLP on this article's subject but support a redirect of the article to a stub about the event ie not focusing exclusively or primarily on the biography of a single person.
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In the case of focusing on the event rather than the person there is not really any meat to the coverage and, in my opinion, it would be most appropriate for it to be a simple stub.
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falls, it is routine to KEEP NOTABLE events quickly, sometimes even the day they occur. Editors routinely start articles on notable crimes soon after they happen, take a look at
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enough when you delve into AFDs on recent events and deserve an actual review of relevant policies. And, on a side note, the article is terribly organized and written. Sure,
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Please don't personalise this. Reading 'Knowledge (XXG):News coverage does not decrease notability' suggests that your black-white view of NOTNEWS is not the only view here?
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The problem with this is that many many crimes get coverage at trial time but few are notable. I've never looked closely at NCRIME so what criteria do you think applies?
56:. Redirect to article about the crime that should be created from scratch. I left the history under the redirect to save time but this shouldn't be a cut and past job./
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And again you manage to totally miss the point. It is more important that we do things correctly than that we jump on every court case, every criminal, every event.
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due to the depth, breadth and ongoing nature of the remarkable nature of the crime of which he has been convicted. Coverage is far from routine, see, for example:
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burst of press coverage. I can see how this could come to justify an article, more on the plot than the person, but the coverage is just not there right now.
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In addition - it seems highly likely that there is more news if nothing else then about what happened in the schools and Mosque where he taught children
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576:. there are investigations by the Charity Commission and Ofsted in progress: so there will be more to add in coming weeks as those are made public.
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I think you should keep a draft of the article and return it to mainspace at a later time when the enduring nature of the subject has been proven.
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Of course that can hurt--frequently initial coverage is wrong, incomplete, misguided. Correctness may not be your concern, but it is our concern.
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To satisfy notnews coverage needs to be ongoing, with crime that typically means coverage outside the usual reporting times of arrest and trial.
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to avoid the deletion debate dealing with a moving target and to allow time for a clearer picture of the notability of the event to emerge"
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Every major UK newspaper and the BBC have covered him today! the
Guardian gave a full page coverage. How much more notable do you need?
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On top of what Jbh already said, the source is an opinion piece--not the kind of thing we are looking for in an encyclopedic article.
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is not appropriate although I have no objection to is being saved as a draft which is a recommended alternative to deletion.
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Umar Haque, teacher who groomed boys for Isis-inspired terror, searched for transgender prostitutes, The Times (5 March 2018)
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I have similarly changed my iVote above. (Golly, a discussion were we are actually working things out, How'd you like that.)
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663:, two books filled with people convicted and suspected of terrorism - and that just goes up to 2008. The revised version is
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is for really routine stuff (sports announcement and the weather) - not attempting to raise an army of children in London.
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he had access ie it was opportunistic rather than strategic. If it was strategic then the case will be covered beyond the
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it to be a new ISIS strategy, then it would merit an article. As it stands it is a horrific story but not of encyclopedic
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Anyway, as I already said: it seems clear that the view of all the main media in the UK is that this case is noteworthy.
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1608:(The requirement for sustained coverage in CRIME is baked in but NCRIME allows for 'media frenzy' to confer notability
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will be met but, even a mere couple of weeks on, it is apparent that it has not. Therefore keeping the article under
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wp:diverse and wp:indepth which are in the 'Notability Events' guidelines so i'm not sure how they are connected?
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That can be called continued coverage. Because it is continued coverage. Even if that might not suit your agenda.
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I think that's a much better idea than a biography. I wish we would be doing this for a lot more of em. Thanks,
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Umar Haque, teacher who groomed boys for Isis-inspired terror, searched for transgender prostitutes
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as per my proposal below.(changing iVote) an article about a conspicuously notable criminal, meets
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and unless we see some significant coverage outside those time frames it fails that criteria.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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willing to change my !vote even when I have argued strongly for my initial position. Cheers!
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's
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Note that press continues to be all over this story, which looks worse as reporters dig:
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Isis follower tried to create jihadist child army in east London (Guardian, 2 March 2018)
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be a case of child abuse ie he had access to the kids and roped them into his perversion
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contemporaneous news coverage and devotes significant attention to the individual's role
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single crime such as this will receive brief bursts of reports in the media, but we are
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See as above -that logic would have applied, and been wrong, for Anders
Behring Breivik.
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Not sure he is really all that notable, in essence he is known for the one thing.
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not an issue as PERP was convicted. The crimes themselves are clearly notable per
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645:, suggests by it's shortness that dime a dozen is not accurate, wouldn't you say?
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Comment - Of course the article covers WP:RAPID as well. Clearly should be kept.
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1290:. That is pretty much the typical "relatively short news cycle" referred to by
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many similar cases on Wiki that 'yet one more' has no value - please feel free.
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I know I am at the stricter end of the notability/inclusion spectrum but I am
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1390:, Britain's Lead Commissioner For Countering Extremism, discussing the case
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Several of the Delete rationales are quite weak so Keep is the better option.
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Generally it needs to be for more then one incident (or in this case crime)
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It has been proposed that this article be redirected to an article on the
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We are outside of the time frame where RAPID would apply. RAPID envisions
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The coverage is following a typical 'flash' cycle - some initial coverage
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actually does not state "historic" crime with enduring coverage - however
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is typical of the round of coverage that ran at the time of the trial .
820:, but, when crap is the standard for inclusion, crap is all we will get.
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Continuing to expand article, as coverage continues and impact emerges.
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a huge burst of coverage right around March 3 when the verdict come out
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Says who? You, who are using pointy I don't like it rationale. Please.
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Help me find the antidote to fight extremists in our own communities
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ER.... no. Knowledge (XXG) routinely creates and keeps articles on
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Religious teacher at London mosque 'lured boys to join death squad'
643:
List of people convicted under
Terrorism Acts in the United Kingdom
1602:, easier than I could support an article on the individual, under
641:'Dime a dozen' you say? 'One unique thing' you say? Looking at
1919:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1839:- Changed per above. A poorly-written article on the event is a
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Isis follower tried to create jihadist child army in east London
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When I first saw your changes this morning, particularly the
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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and providing analysis and/or contextualization of the plot
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I prefer delete of Umar Haque at a second afd. But anyway,
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per GNG ie several paragraphs addressing him and the plot
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when the case was heard, followed by lots of coverage
800:. Coverage on charges and convictions are not unique;
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quote. I thought to myself 'OK, now I can change to
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I can support that and have changed my !vote above.
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The
Terrorist List (Praeger Security International)
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Sure 'generally' that is true. But what about this
1498:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
1249:Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,
186:
1191:doesn't apply as there nothing routine in that.--
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1933:). No further edits should be made to this page.
917:Note: This discussion has been included in the
252:Note: This discussion has been included in the
232:Note: This discussion has been included in the
212:Note: This discussion has been included in the
234:list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions
8:
1130:. It is only necessary that the crime pass
896:. Article certainly needs improvement, but
254:list of England-related deletion discussions
214:list of People-related deletion discussions
919:list of Crime-related deletion discussions
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1862:- I could support that move, absolutely.
1472:Comment on content, and not users please.
1612:. This would also be a textbook case of
898:Knowledge (XXG):Deletion is not cleanup
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1079:(which NCRIME is part of) - does. Per
18:Knowledge (XXG):Articles for deletion
7:
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1805:2018 London "army of children" plot
1651:2018 London "army of children" plot
1120:Knowledge (XXG):Notability (events)
765:2018 London "army of children" plot
54:2018 London "army of children" plot
24:
1883:go for it, it might turn out ok.
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406:Trial_of_Anders_Behring_Breivik.
955:an avalanche of coverage. Let
659:Maybe I am just jaded. I have,
1702:Amazing... Utterly amazing...
1593:not weeks. It also applied to
1:
1598:the plot/crime itself, under
1128:Category:2018 crimes by month
689:(and possibly the conspiracy)
1284:"Umar%20haque" around Jan 17
1902:- I agree with that rename.
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698:'Oh my God! The children!'
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1764:Pinging all participants
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1922:Please do not modify it.
1386:Coverage continues with
1097:NCRIME says and I quote
808:, and nothing points to
32:Please do not modify it.
818:deletion is not cleanup
810:historical significance
763:or rename+repurpose to
1118:Szzuk, with regard to
842:is far from ROUTINE.
677:Abc-clio, 2011, ISBN
1537:significant coverage
725:WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE
673:, Susan L. Simmons:
1134:. Guidelines like
812:. Counting refs is
789:- Say it after me:
388:See comment below.
1138:are subsidiary to
791:continued coverage
671:Edward F. Mickolus
598:'s proposal below.
591:Delete or Redirect
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1776:Slatersteven
1772:CanterburyUK
1711:
1646:
1631:Last edited:
1630:
1610:on the event
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1474:Slatersteven
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1251:TonyBallioni
1238:
1222:covers this.
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1077:WP:EVENTCRIT
951:
941:
890:The Guardian
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834:Thankfully,
813:
806:not the news
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628:Last edited:
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536:CanterburyUK
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418:CanterburyUK
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1690:E.M.Gregory
1663:E.M.Gregory
1569:E.M.Gregory
1529:Independent
1515:E.M.Gregory
1398:E.M.Gregory
1300:PERSISTENCE
1292:PERSISTENCE
1144:E.M.Gregory
1041:E.M.Gregory
1002:E.M.Gregory
962:E.M.Gregory
947:Toronto Sun
923:E.M.Gregory
902:E.M.Gregory
734:WP:BLPCRIME
596:E.M.Gregory
160:free images
1645:Proposing
1614:NEVENT#3.4
1589:a few days
1346:, said so.
1189:WP:NOTNEWS
1185:WP:DIVERSE
1069:WP:NOTNEWS
1037:WP:INDEPTH
1033:WP:DIVERSE
994:WP:NCRIMEs
610:notability
601:WP:TOOSOON
75:Umar haque
67:Umar haque
1927:talk page
1659:The Times
1388:Sara Kahn
1220:WP:SIGCOV
1212:WP:NCRIME
1136:WP:NCRIME
1124:WP:NCRIME
1073:WP:NCRIME
960:obsolete.
938:The Times
882:The Times
878:WP:SIGCOV
870:WP:NCRIME
738:WP:NCRIME
667:volumes.
661:literally
37:talk page
1929:or in a
1837:Redirect
1647:Redirect
1567:applies.
1565:WP:RAPID
1490:Relisted
1241:Relisted
1216:WP:BASIC
1181:WP:RAPID
1081:WP:RAPID
957:WP:RAPID
874:WP:BASIC
863:Redirect
844:WP:RAPID
761:Redirect
324:specific
291:WP:CRIME
119:View log
50:redirect
39:or in a
1900:Comment
1877:Comment
1860:Comment
1794:, and
1784:Icewhiz
1502:Lourdes
1280:Comment
1183:.Meets
1085:Icewhiz
848:Icewhiz
769:Icewhiz
743:Icewhiz
741:group).
694:because
166:WP refs
154:scholar
92:protect
87:history
58:Spartaz
1864:BabbaQ
1841:slight
1822:Drmies
1792:BabbaQ
1788:Shrike
1780:Drmies
1741:or....
1712:always
1600:NCRIME
1434:BabbaQ
1366:BabbaQ
1325:BabbaQ
1267:BabbaQ
1224:BabbaQ
1193:Shrike
1140:WP:GNG
1132:WP:GNG
1035:&
998:WP:GNG
787:Delete
669:(See:
551:Drmies
532:Drmies
519:Drmies
501:Drmies
484:Drmies
461:Drmies
432:Drmies
368:Delete
138:Google
96:delete
1885:Szzuk
1802:event
1768:Szzuk
1604:CRIME
1533:Keep'
1304:RAPID
1296:RAPID
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980:Szzuk
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416:look.
403:Szzuk
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373:Szzuk
256:. —
236:. —
216:. —
181:JSTOR
142:books
126:Stats
113:views
105:watch
101:links
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679:ISBN
665:five
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594:per
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299:talk
281:talk
202:talk
174:FENS
148:news
109:logs
83:talk
79:edit
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1678:Jbh
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262:Rdl
259:Frc
242:Rdl
239:Frc
222:Rdl
219:Frc
188:TWL
117:– (
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