854:. Delete / merge for the rest of the articles. Davy's grey: notability not established, though I'd did find some sources when searching going as far back as quoting something from 1896. Arsenic: not notable. Charcoal: color is not notable, though use of charcoals in art is but covered in the main article. Zinnwaldite: I've not been able to find any non-wikipedia sources for this name as a color, though I'm sure I've heard a similar color name before. Xanadu: see my comments above. As for variations of pink, similar to
1032:." In at least a few of them the color is specified as being of significance in some manner. "charcoal-colored" gave 9 in GN, and an additional 225 in Google Scholar, 638 in Google Books, for a wide variety of types of objects. There are dozens of similar phrases to check for additional hits. As for the other colors, I suspect they might find at least a few such references. I don't see that anyone above even looked at all, and are just arguing about what ought to be included without actually checking for sources.
1628:) 07:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC) To keep a sense of humor about this discussion, I'm sure if the research were continued, the color beige would be about 500 on the list and the color zinnwaldite would be about number 2,000 on the list! Just think how far we have advanced in color terminology in the English language by this date that we can even be talking about this!
1057:
relevant question in an AfD is, I believe, is to replace suspicion one way or another with verification. Is zinnwaldite, in any notable sense, a color, and if so, then as a color, is there anything notable about it—is there anything worth observing about it—and can it legitimately be defined as narrowly as has been done? —
1001:
shades, and the association of each of them with a single set of color coordinates is a completely subjective and arbitrary assignment with no basis in actual usage. Both of these points boil down to the same thing: Knowledge articles aren't supposed to declare terms to have meanings that they don't have. —
1399:
that people call phones beige instead of zinnwaldite indicates the level of subjectivity in your evaluation of this matter. To put it straight: no matter what other color term might be found from any of the numerous naming systems to describe the shade of the traditional light-colored phone, the fact
1386:
one color list that could possibly be used as a source for notable names at the level of specificity you are aiming for, it would be something like
Pantone. It certainly wouldn't be xona.com. (I had my house painted a Sherwin Williams color called "Innocence". In the end I chose it over "Demure" and
1355:, unfortunately both charts are after the color that is claimed to be "zinnwaldite" was discontinued. Looks like a chart from 1954-1957 might be best. Again haven't found anything that ties this to the name zinnwaldite. And the name does not appear in one of the larger color dictionaries that I have.
570:
I can't for the life of me see how the name associated with some shade on some color chart is more notable than the name associated with some other shade just because it's the name of a real-life object while the other is completely made up. Besides that, more of the text of this article is about the
132:
that I suspect is not notable belonging to a website that I suspect is not notable, xona.com. Is it even clear that the whole list would merit an article on
Knowledge, let alone squandering a whole page on every color on the chart? How does one submit a whole batch of pages for deletion discussion at
898:
Pardon, but how doesn't this pass notability guidelines? For Xanadu and
Charcoal (I didn't check the others), we have two good-looking sources each for the colour itself. If we want to argue that individual colour shades aren't significant enough for their own articles, we shouldn't seek to delete
1000:
At least that, yes, but that wouldn't eliminate a couple of the problems—(1) the issue of color terms that are pure inventions and as such only mean what some self-designated person or small group says they mean, and (2) color names in popular use such as "charcoal" and "baby blue" cover a range of
410:
the "real" name for this color, and people say the phones are "beige" only because AT&T flouted the "real" term and used "beige" instead—as though otherwise people would naturally have called the color "zinnwaldite". In general, these articles represent an attempt to create specific definitions
1056:
of these terms don't exist or aren't used. Even with respect to them, one of the issues I've brought forward is whether any of them merits an article in
Knowledge as opposed to, at most, a dictionary. As for the ones like zinnwaldite and Xanadu: instead of suspecting that they might be used, the
1466:
Bondi blue is blue just like a Red-tailed
Sportive Lemur is an animal. Color names for the most part are descriptive not prescriptive. Furthermore wikipedia needs to be verifiable. Just saying that that telephone was zinnwaldite doesn't make it true and without good external sources it really
1511:
but it is not blue." If that's what you say, then it is clear that you are attempting to change the language to suit your purposes. You are doing exactly what I claimed: assigning all color names to a single point each in color space and declaring that to be
401:
In the 1960s the
American Telephone & Telegraph Company (AT&T) marketed zinnwaldite colored telephones for offices and homes. However, they described the color as "beige." It is therefore common for many people to refer to the color zinnwaldite as
493:
do not deserve to have their own articles because they are purely arbitrary names and none of them in fact so far have their own article, contrary to what you have stated. Only those colors on the list that are based on specific physical objects suchs as
921:
sources? With authority to dictate names for colors, to say "This is what this color name refers to, and it doesn't refer to any other shade"? In the case of charcoal, the notion is preposterous. Charcoal—both natural charcoal and charcoal used in
1100:. As for relative notability, is something called "Davy's gray" really as notable as "red"? The same question could be asked about integers. Is 31,472 as notable as 7? Should there be an article about 31,472 just because it's a genuine integer? —
1472:
CMYK conversion, especially since it doesn't seem to take color space into account. The second is about the mineral. The third is about the mineral. The phrase "Zinnwaldite color" occurs because that is the raw source of an HTML document. See
381:
Some of them are arbitrary names. Others are commonly used names, but they have been assigned to a point on the color wheel as though they have an exact definition that they don't possess, outside of an arbitrary (and
1482:
makes no mention for
Zinnwaldite besides in the filename of the picture, and the post it self lists them as "sun tan". Even the picture of the telephone shown does not seem to match the color shown in the infobox.
436:. However, what that means is: A specific color was selected for a specific purpose, and it has been given, or has acquired, a name associated with that selection. It doesn't mean that that name is in any sense an
1477:
for the link to the pdf version, which clearly shows that that phrase is from a table and two different columns. The forth source is the only thing that is close, but the page that the picture comes from
1265:
because of that A.T.&T. telephone. I would have no problem with merging
Zinnwaldite with Beige, but I would prefer to keep them separate. I have sources for most of the unsourced colors in
1030:
802:. Non-notable regional color. Even if it is to be kept it should be on some sort of shades / variations of grey page and combined with some of the other stubbed / small grey articles (such as
1479:
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article. I found that
Zinnwaldite has been in use as a color name since 1953. It is very important that Zinnwaldite be kept in because so many people confuse the color Zinnwaldite with
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on which you can move a cursor around, get a slice of the color wheel at that point, and find out which of the codes on of the colors on the list is to the color you have chosen.
121:
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That's one of the problems with providing coordinates for colors that are not part of some standard is that it strongly implies that their is one particular color for any name.
1391:
violation, in my opinion. As far as zinnwaldite and beige are concerned, the two can't be "confused" because beige, like many color names, is a loose term that applies to a
1026:. The color designation is very widely used for garments and other objects. A search for charcoal clothing on Google news gives 392 items, about half of which are relevant.
148:
I am also nominating the following articles for the same reason. There are many more; at the moment, this is as far as I've gotten with tagging them with the afd1 template:
506:, etc. and that match the colors of these objects as identified from other sources should have their own articles. This article on the colour Xanadu meets that criterion.
1395:
of shades—and therein lies the fallacy in your arguments: the idea that every color name applies to one specific point in color space. Even the fact that you think it's a
1257:
after sourcing them to a widely used color list. Obviously, since charcoal has been in use as a color name since 1606, it should be kept! I added more references to the
1096:
Is Xanadu a color? Is zinnwaldite a color? As I noted, someone just made them up. As for the others, as I noted, someone made up the precise definitions given for them.
489:: The colour Xanadu is named after a specific identifiable physical object, the leaves of the Xanadu plant. Obviously the vast majority of the colors on the
658:
I wrote most of the original color article on Kelly Green as a separate article, but another editor merged it and a lot of the other articles about the minor
1480:
http://www.zerosightaccessories.com/our_forum/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=116&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=eb809f53d00151bbfcaf41108a524e72
1335:- I've started trying to do more digging into what I can find out about telephones of that era. I believe the phone pictured on the Zinnwaldite page is a
414:
Unfortunately, there are also many color articles that began with and/or now contain material that is actually notable information about the color (see
753:
is the French word for cherry). Therefore it is perfectly normal and standard to base the name of a color on a physical object as is the case in the
393:
Here's an example of the attitude that has gone into the use of
Knowledge to imply that these color names are somehow official: in the article on
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1140:. Walk into the paint section of any hardware store and you'll see hundreds of poetic names on color chips, that doesn't make them notable.
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It doesn't seem like an encyclopedia article type topic to me. I would have never thought that WP would have an article on any color.
930:) 13:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)comes in a variety of shades. There is no non-POV basis for declaring it to refer to a single shade. —
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92:
1343:
for WE 500 series. Note the -55 Rose Beige, -59 Rose Pink. Those might be the colors used. No mention of Zinnwaldite. There is also
1314:
beige but in actual fact it was colored zinnwaldite and thus many people mistakenly identify the color zinnwaldite as being beige.
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Do you have a source for the "zinnwaldite" telephone? If so that's pretty interesting and should be added to the article.
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Here is the beige article with the color chart of colors in the beige range which I originally included in the article:
1382:
widely used color list? Sherman Williams'? Benjamin Moore's? Behr's? Lowes'? The World Wide Web Consortium's? If there's
1339:. I've found one set that lists some colors for the phones which appears to be part of the 500, 1500, 2500 family, see
1540:
is at #0000FF. That is its definition for computer display. Of course, there are many different shades of blue. The
432:
I acknowledge that some related articles are about colors whose specific values were defined at the outset, such as
1114:
1652:
36:
983:, etc. Individual types of colors do not have the notability or references to sustain so many short articles.
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gets 12,000 hits on Google which shows that it is in fairly wide use, and most of the colors on it are from the
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a
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but it is not blue (Here is the blue article with the shades of blue color chart I originally included in it:
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article, that as a language evolves, additional color terms are added to the basic three basic color terms
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correct meaning, and using this counterfactual notion as the basis for your argument here. This is a gross
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they are all physical colors of the spectrum. How are they any more notable then say blue or purple?
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As for the cool things that can be done on the website: they aren't pertinent to the issue at hand. —
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below.
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London:1980--Marshall Editions, Ltd. ISBN 0-89535-037-8 "The Vocabulary of Color" Pages 50-51
1556:. There are also specific points for each of the web colors and each of the Crayola colors.
1352:
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418:, for example) but that have been adulterated with these subjective color name assignments. —
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are abstract names. Most color names are based on physical objects. Examples include
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This is only one of a large number of articles, each devoted to a single color on a
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1387:"Romance". Should there be articles for those?) As it is, your source is a
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because it looks like a longstanding recipe for a pigment. Weak keep for
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plant than about the color that's supposed to be the article's topic!
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all on a single list of more than 1500 colors. There is also an
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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By the way, as an aside, did you know, as I pointed out in the
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1052:"Knowledge is not a dictionary." There is no argument that
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shouldn't be presented as true. For the sources listed in
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http://www.porticus.org/bell/telephones-colorcharts-2.html
1349:
http://www.porticus.org/bell/telephones-colorcharts-1.html
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is a pale cream/ivory color, not a pale brown color like
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The instructions on nominating a bunch of articles is at
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properly-sourced ones — that's the purpose of merging.
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to cover only the major, not the minor shades of green.
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colors into an article I had previously created called
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Tonight I changed the color codes for the articles on
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because of the wide use of charcoal pencils in art.
810:, etc...) similar to what was done with the greens.
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It is pertinent because the Name That Color website
386:) color naming system that may assign them as such.
1536:Each color IS at a specific point in color space.
671:Original Kelly Green article when it was separate:
411:that don't already, objectively speaking, exist.
1475:http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/5455
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1655:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1176:cultivar it's named after. And everybody knows
1424:. Obviously, zinnwaldite can be regarded as a
1588:in a fixed order as a language evolves: first
833:, I'll update my comment later on the others.
729:(originally from the secretion of a mollusk),
1471:. The first is just an approximate RGB =: -->
8:
1098:Knowledge is not for things made up one day
1341:http://www.paul-f.com/we500typ.htm#Colors
542:Xona.com Color List(Resene Paint Colors):
528:is very popular and includes most of the
406:The implication is that "zinnwaldite" is
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1428:of beige, but it is not beige, just as
1199:- A separate article for every item in
1029:. "Charcoal suit" as a phrase gave 10.
1596:(first one, and then the other); then
1345:http://www.paul-f.com/color.htm#WE500
689:Only the most basic color names like
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1310:The point is that the telephone was
1469:Zinnwaldite (color) oldid=240199563
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779:Nobody here has said otherwise. —
1544:are based on the definitions of
18:Knowledge:Articles for deletion
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1:
1269:which I'll insert tomorrow.
1347:on the same site. Also see
534:Knowledge color list colors
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829:- The above delete is for
634:. Well-known colors (e.g.
1182:is really a discotheque.
975:Merge all gray shades to
1648:Please do not modify it.
1172:should be merged to the
1020:Strong keep for Charcoal
32:Please do not modify it.
1144:is already merged into
1115:All numbers are notable
1668:Varley, Helen, editor
524:This color name site,
440:name for that color. —
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1503:can be regarded as a
1432:can be regarded as a
1337:Western Electric 2500
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538:Crayola crayon colors
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1160:as neologism. Keep
1152:should be merged to
408:objectively speaking
390:seems to apply too.
1247:STRONG KEEP FOR ALL
1142:Zinnwaldite (color)
1024:Keep for the others
856:Variations of green
664:Variations of green
610:Xona.com Color List
491:Xona.com Color List
395:Zinnwaldite (color)
337:Zinnwaldite (color)
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27:
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1396:
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1174:Philodendron
1137:
1075:
1053:
1033:
1023:
1019:
972:
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876:
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826:
799:
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644:Clarityfiend
631:
486:
472:Clarityfiend
459:
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431:
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334:
288:
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196:
150:
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127:
46:no consensus
45:
43:
31:
28:
1554:color wheel
1522:Largo Plazo
1449:zinnwaldite
1406:Largo Plazo
1393:whole range
1259:zinnwaldite
1255:Davy's grey
1162:Davy's grey
1102:Largo Plazo
1059:Largo Plazo
1003:Largo Plazo
932:Largo Plazo
924:Largo Plazo
781:Largo Plazo
636:Kelly green
586:Largo Plazo
540:, and the
442:Largo Plazo
420:Largo Plazo
153:Davy's grey
135:Largo Plazo
130:color chart
1574:Color name
1542:web colors
1520:problem. —
1501:Bondi blue
1430:Bondi blue
1224:- FYI The
1156:. Delete
757:article.
530:Web colors
397:, it says
384:subjective
1205:Ningauble
1119:Ningauble
919:objective
466:(also at
464:WP:BUNDLE
416:Baby blue
1630:Keraunos
1622:Keraunos
1558:Keraunos
1485:PaleAqua
1453:Keraunos
1357:PaleAqua
1316:Keraunos
1271:Keraunos
1251:charcoal
1230:PaleAqua
986:Reywas92
954:PaleAqua
922:drawing—
860:PaleAqua
835:PaleAqua
812:PaleAqua
759:Keraunos
674:Keraunos
640:Xona.com
617:Keraunos
550:Keraunos
508:Keraunos
504:minerals
438:official
402:"beige."
122:View log
1616:and/or
1600:; then
1592:and/or
1518:WP:NPOV
1397:problem
1389:WP:NPOV
1333:Comment
1290:Comment
1222:Comment
1117:. ;) ~
1022:, and
901:Nyttend
827:Comment
741:), and
707:magenta
532:, some
500:flowers
460:Comment
354:protect
349:history
308:protect
303:history
262:protect
257:history
216:protect
211:history
170:protect
165:history
89:protect
84:history
1614:purple
1606:orange
1594:yellow
1584:, and
1312:called
1179:Xanadu
877:Delete
800:Delete
751:cerise
747:cherry
743:cerise
731:Indigo
727:Purple
723:violet
719:violet
715:orange
711:orange
705:, and
695:yellow
632:Delete
536:, the
496:plants
468:WP:Afd
388:WP:NOR
358:delete
312:delete
266:delete
220:delete
174:delete
133:once?
117:delete
93:delete
50:Stifle
1670:Color
1602:brown
1590:green
1582:white
1578:black
1550:Green
1505:shade
1445:Beige
1434:shade
1426:shade
1263:beige
1146:Beige
1138:Merge
1080:Tavix
917:What
699:green
660:green
375:views
367:watch
363:links
329:views
321:watch
317:links
283:views
275:watch
271:links
237:views
229:watch
225:links
191:views
183:watch
179:links
120:) – (
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1634:talk
1626:talk
1618:gray
1610:pink
1598:blue
1562:talk
1538:Blue
1526:talk
1509:blue
1489:talk
1457:talk
1438:blue
1410:talk
1402:were
1380:What
1361:talk
1351:and
1320:talk
1298:talk
1275:talk
1253:and
1234:talk
1209:talk
1188:talk
1154:pink
1123:talk
1106:talk
1084:talk
1076:Keep
1063:talk
1054:some
1040:talk
1007:talk
958:talk
936:talk
928:talk
905:talk
896:Keep
885:talk
864:talk
850:for
848:Keep
839:talk
816:talk
785:talk
763:talk
739:rose
735:rose
703:blue
678:talk
648:talk
621:talk
590:talk
554:talk
512:talk
487:Keep
476:talk
446:talk
424:talk
371:logs
345:talk
341:edit
325:logs
299:talk
295:edit
279:logs
253:talk
249:edit
233:logs
207:talk
203:edit
187:logs
161:talk
157:edit
139:talk
106:logs
80:talk
76:edit
54:talk
1586:red
1546:Red
1514:the
1507:of
1436:of
1384:any
1197:OMG
1035:DGG
725:),
717:),
691:red
470:).
1636:)
1612:,
1608:,
1580:,
1564:)
1548:,
1528:)
1491:)
1459:)
1451:.
1412:)
1363:)
1322:)
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1277:)
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1042:)
1009:)
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938:)
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887:)
866:)
841:)
818:)
806:,
787:)
765:)
749:--
733:,
701:,
697:,
693:,
680:)
650:)
623:)
615:.
612:.
592:)
556:)
514:)
502:,
498:,
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1632:(
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