Knowledge (XXG):Categories for deletion/Log/2006 March 20

2088:-- alternative occasionally has pejorative implications when used as an adjective, in the sense of a minority preference (such as alternative music, medicine) but that hardly applies here (though makes a case against the above suggested Alternative Main Pages) and I would contend that any use as a noun is neutral, if not complimentary in this age of cynicism. It's easy for you to say there's nothing wrong with the use of "alternate", but over here in the UK it really jars in this context and I'd be interested to hear that coming from any non-american. The usage of "alternate" in place of alternative probably derived from misuse, and Wiktionary marks it as a US usage. As for "Other Main Pages", where has it been used now? I disagree with that one because they can't all really be main pages. They are, rather, alternatives 821:

their response - the information is pretty much on their website though not in a clear form. What was said - and this is why I maintain that the name United Kingdom is completely inaccurate in this context - is broadly the points I raised above: - the team generally styles itself Great Britain or "Team GB"; the team is made up of sportsmen and sportswomen who compete under the auspices of their individual sports' national governing bodies which are affiliated to the BOA; in some sports the local governing body for that sport has responsibility for territories that do not form part of the United Kingdom (e.g the Channel Islands); in a minority of sports (hockey is one example) the Great Britain team does not include Northern Irish players as these sports are organised on an all-Ireland basis

1111:

other sports, there are separate bodies in the Republic and in Northern Ireland and/or the UK as a whole. Dependent on the sport, a person from Northern Ireland might compete for "Great Britain" or they might compete for "Ireland". The term United Kingdom is never used in relation to the team that the BOA sends to the Olympics and it would be incorrect politically to do so; that is why it is an incorrect name for this category. The term "Great Britain" is regularly used by the organisation that sends the team and by the IOC; that is why it is the correct name for this cat, even if it is geographically inaccurate (which I happily concede).

1300:. The country that the BOA has registered itself to represent is the United Kingdom, and the name that it uses is 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Under the Olympic Charter and its own, it does not represent the Crown Dependencies; Jersey, Guernsey, and Manx athletes only qualify for 'Team GB' by virtue of being treated as though they were British citizens (a long-held principle, legally enshrined by the British Nationality Act 1981). Furthermore, the BOA does not use the name 'Great Britain', but 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. That has been conclusively proven in this discussion and several others. 1222:(see the links to Hansard that I provided above), not as the representation of all of the British Islands. That 'Team GB' includes (or can include) athletes from the other British Islands is immaterial to which country that it represents (after all, only ten of the world's 59 dependencies have their own Olympic teams). Similarly, the Olympic Council of Ireland represents the Republic of Ireland, despite their past protestations to the contrary; that they have come to an agreement with the BOA and IOC under which the BOA and OCI share athletes from Northern Ireland is irrelevant. 1278:

not aware that term has any legal validity and the geographical term is normally British Isles which would include the whole of the island of Ireland). Whilst I of course am assuming your good faith in this rename proposal, I have noticed that you identify yourself on your user page as a "British Imperialist" and regret the "missing 26 counties" that are now the Republic of Ireland; perhaps your stated POV is inadvertently colouring your approach to this matter? In any case, the BOA, which you are now putting great store by, uses the name "Great Britain". QED.

364:, whereby the category is left erroneously named, but including a solitary sentence of ‘explanation’ that only confuses further, is unsuitable. The new name ('United Kingdom at the Olympics') would still accommodate for the articles on UK team that took part in 1924 (and perhaps later, but I am not entirely sure when the BOA changed the name) under the new ‘Great Britain’, and for the subsequent teams that have competed as ‘Great Britain and Northern Ireland’. 556:. If "Great Britain" is precise enough for the IOC public medal records, it is appropriate for this category name at Knowledge (XXG), which after all reflects the name in official/public/widespread use. The proposed renaming to "United Kingdom" would, if anything, only serve to confuse and misplace this category alphabetically. Please remember that we are concerned here with the name of the team, even if it is a political or geographic misnomer. -- 1102: 824:, so, for example, Northern Irish hockey players would compete for Ireland at the Olympics (though an individual NI player who was a member of an English, Scottish, or Welsh club could play for GB on that basis!). I think we have to be clear that national Olympic teams are not representatives of a state, they are representatives of a National Olympic Committee (NOC) which may or may not correspond to a state (so for example 1131:, which is misleading and completely omits Northern Ireland. It also will lead ill-informed people to believe that people from Northern Ireland compete for the Republic of Ireland. This is true in a few isolated cases, but not on the whole. Say what you want about what the media or even the BOA (whose answer was completely inconclusive) calling it GB, Knowledge (XXG) should be about representing the facts accurately. 960:), and that the name "Team GB" is actually from time to time debated as being nonsensical even here in England. Furtheremore, this move seems to be supported most strongly by people from Northern Ireland who feel that the current category names denies their country/province's contribution to Team GB, and who a I t argue against that. I'm seeing good arguments from both sides, however, e.g. the nominator and 2130:. In this context, the word "alternates" is less correct than "alternatives." When these pages were created, I considered renaming them (or proposing such a change), but I was worried that I might have been taking my pedantry too far. I'm comforted to know that someone else cared about this, and I see no reason not to rename the category accordingly. (Incidentally, I'm from the United States.) — 3370:. If someone takes their lobster for walks, the article on them should include "(s)he often took his/her lobster for a walk." There is no need to lump them together with flat earthers, political/religious extreminsts, diet cranks, etc. Not a useful category, no possibility of precise inclusion criteria ('social norms' ?! Whose? When?) -- 419:. despite the BOC's use of "GB" (for their reasons to keep the name more understandable to a non-British audience or whatever, where in fact they add confusion). Northern Ireland residents have represented and continue to be present on the team and its naming here should reflect this as other naming of pages on UK content do 2072:-- Why does this come up so often? Alternative is a perjorative in many places. BigBlueFish just moved all the articles in this category to his preferred name, and then asks here to rename the category?!?! This is taking "be bold" way over the top. We've been using "Other" instead for awhile now. So, make it 3552:(these 2 have been already renamed), with non-hyphenated versions featured as redirects for obvious reasons. This category which I listed for speedy renaming as a typo is the only Knowledge (XXG) category beginning with "cross country" (no hyphen) -- see the index of categories starting with "cross country": 2680:. Never heard of such a thing, in addition to my understanding that Kabbalah must be studied only once certain qualifications are achieved, and is only run by institutions when this is done. Knowledge (XXG) is not a phone and address book (although WikiPhoneBook will probably exist in about two years or so). 2717:

for reasons above, but this is likely to come up again and become a controversial issue. As much as I scoff at the Madonnas and Britney Spearses of the world who pick this up as a fad, there are a growing number of people who have adopted Kabbalah as something distinct and separate from Judaism. As a

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represent the United Kingdom. In compliance with the IOC charter (Chapter 4;3, 4;5, and 4;31), the BOA has registered itself as IOC-recognised national representation of the United Kingdom under the name 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland', and is under parliamentary scrutiny as that representation

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What happens if someone who played for the Hamilton Steelhawks is noteworthy for some reason other than going on to play in the NHL. It seems to me that the "alumni" categories are more useless than the "player" categories and could be thrown out instead, being more restrictive and being based on a

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If you want to represent the facts accurately then using the term United Kingdom in the name of this category is clearly not correct. The only fact that I can see here is that the team that competes at the Olympics calls itself "Great Britain". You may not like the fact that this name omits Northern

1110:

And I will again draw your attention to my comments re: the representation of people from Northern Ireland at the Olympics. In some sports - hockey is an example - the national organising body in the island of Ireland is a 32-county wide body and is affiliated to the Olympic Committee of Ireland; in

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I don't know how to explain this any clearer: the body represents the interests of British citizens and of the four national regions of the United Kingdom: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. This is mentioned on the website. Everyone, except a few people adding comments and votes here it

430:'Team GB' is a marketing name (the reason that they keep that name: financing). The current official team name is 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland', and the name has been that since 1948 at the latest (and possibly as early as 1928, after the country was renamed from UK of GB&I in 1927); see 1253:

Not only did I not claim that the BOA is part of the British government (a laughable inference), but the salient point in the sentence, that it cannot represent both the UK and the Crown Dependencies, was not addressed; I've corresponded with the IOC and BOA extensively on this issue, and they have

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I don't know how to explain this any more clearly than I already have done. The team that is sent to the Olympics under the auspices of the British Olympic Committee is composed primarily of people who are citizens of the United Kingdom, but it can also include those who are citizens of territories

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You did say that you find this sentence confusing the issue further, but it does admirably succeed in providing an exposition of the current official name and the past official name, and it does name the United Kingdom as the corresponding country. Categories are there to help navigation, and this

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with a big notice that this category should be empty? Or don't we do that with category pages, or would it simply result in too-frequent additions that don't belong here, so it would be better leaving it as a redlink? Even if that's the case, could a talk page be retained, containing those links

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as stated above "disregard for society's norms" should be a strong indicator, Calvin Klein clearly has this pointed out in his article, to begin with his advertising campaigns have certainly bucked 'norms' not to mention his lifestyle, but your point is well taken that articles should if necessary

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compete for the Great Britain team and are not citizens of the UK, then clearly, the BOA does not "represent" only the UK. I have never stated that the BOA represents "all of the British Islands as a singular entity" (and I am not clear what you mean by the term "British Islands" in any case. I am

623:

The use of "United Kingdom" as a shortened version to refer to UK of GB&NI is a neologism, something that has cropped up mostly in the last half-century. Your claim that "United Kingdom" should also be used standing alone to refer to the former "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" is

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Furthermore, unlike 'Rhode Island', 'Great Britain' is not the only name that is in common informal use. Even when referring to the Olympics, 'United Kingdom' is used by many millions of Britons; 'Team GB' is used by the BOA; 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland' is used by the BBC for TV captions

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hopelessly POV and liable to be used to denigrate any person with views that an editor opposes or wants to rubbish i.e. religious people considering atheists eccentric or vice versa, hetero people considering all non hetero people to be eccentric, right wingers claiming left wingers are eccentric

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It should be about the country which competes not just the main Island. If you want to use a name which most people think of when they see the Union Flag why not just use England at the Olympics? Knowledge (XXG) should report the reality of the make-up of the team, although I recognise that there

820:

I was just coming here to add some content regarding this. I emailed the BOA via their website and received a response but when I emailed back asking if I could have their permission to quote directly from the email I got no further response. However, I think it's appropriate for me to paraphrase

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represent all of the British Islands as a singular entity, because they do not form a single country. To represent more than one country would require special dispensation from the IOC Executive Board (as the Unified Team received in 1992, for example), and the BOA has never sought to represent

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The reports you refer to from Hansard prove nothing useful. Any organisation that operates in the UK may come under the scrutiny of the UK parliament, but that does not make the BOA a body of the United Kingdom government in any way! In fact to quote from information in the very sources you have

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along an all(island of) Great Britain and and all (island of) Ireland line; others are organised on a UK line and a Republic of Ireland line. The result of this is that a Northern Irish competitor in one sport may compete for Ireland at the Olympics, in a different sport he may compete for Great

2142:- Another 'west ponder' here and 'alternatives' seems more natural than 'alternates' to me. I think we all agree the category, page name, and 'options' themselves should be consistent... and to me 'alternatives' seems a better choice than 'alternate' or 'other' (or 'options' for that matter). -- 590:

per nom. Knowledge (XXG) should report reality, not the "official" marketing guff which all organisations are guaranteed to push out. The fact is that this is, and was, a UK team. I find the removal of Northern Ireland from the name to be particularly misleading, and somewhat insulting. When/if

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Rhode Island's constitutional name is rarely used. It's because it's prohibitively long, which is exactly why I'm not proposing 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'. I'm proposing 'United Kingdom', which, last time that I

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The name should definately be UK as that implies GB (England, Scotland, Wales) and NI. GB simply misses out Northern Ireland. The fact the team is often styled teamGB in real life is misleading but most people involved know the difference. On wikipedia I believe there is always a strive for

450:. Since three different names have been used for the team, one can use either three separate categories or one category named after the country, i.e. United Kingdom. Since nobody's suggesting the former, the latter is the only sensible option. That is also in line with the practice for 3477:

Initially this was listed at Speedy as a simple typo fix: substitute a hyphen for a space in "cross country", but it was contested and was subsequently delisted. See below for the objection, my rebuttal, and another editor's seconding of my nomination as copied from Speedy history page.

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result, there will be people here who claim that a list of kabbalah practitioners is noteworthy, phrased one way or another. My feeling is that we work on a temperate, firm, and persuasive response to all this rather than just rejecting what appears - like it or not - to be reality. --

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that are not part of the United Kingdom. The team that competes at the Olympics under the name Great Britain does not represent any specific nation state; it represents a group of national sporting bodies. As for the issue of the island of Ireland, some sports are organised in the

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The current Knowledge (XXG) usage is favoring in this instance the so-called common name vs. the theoretically complete/official name. Your nomination does neither, inventing a name for the team that is simply never used. The situation is analogous with the naming of the article

3016: 454:, for example. Currently, the name is just nonsensical, since the team name 'Great Britain' was used only for a short period between the World Wars, and, as Scranchuse unwittingly points out, the 'Great Britain' group will tend towards insignificance as time goes on. 1272:

I cannot see any other inference that can be drawn from your comments about parliamentary scrutiny. If this was not what you were implying then I am not sure what you were attempting to prove with this comment. As competitors from the Channel Islands, Isle of Man etc

3234:. Fiddle with the name by all means, fame is ephemeral but eccentricity is encyclopaedic. The writer who took his pet lobster for a walk - eccentric yes, POV? The French savant whose dinners proceeded from coffee to soup - his eccentricity was part of the story. 3286:. It will always be a value judgement as to whether a person is eccentric. Categories should not be named on the basis of a value judgement. I agree that "eccentric" is not necessarily a pejorative description, but whether it is pejorative or not is irrelevant. 2385:. I then found "People from Tokyo" and switched the categories of these two new additions, thus bringing the population back down to two. I then looked at the existing two. One was of somebody who came from Tokyo but does not live or work in Japan; thus "People 1033:

You are factually correct in this; however the term "United Kingdom law" is often used to refer to those laws that are made by the United Kingdom parliament that apply across the whole of the state. It is also used officially in Acts of Parliament, for example

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for the inclusion of a reference to NI is quite clearly not a fact and the possible confusion of the ill-informed is also not a reason to use the inaccurate title "United Kingdom". BTW, other Olympic sports that organise on an all-Ireland basis are badminton

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The team does represent a country. The Olympics represents countries from all over the world - that's what its about: countries competing against eachother in sporting events. The country that is represented by the team is explained in the official website.

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See my comments below. The name Republic of Ireland is questionable when referring to the team that is sent by the Olympic Committee of Ireland for the reasons I outline below about the effect of some sports being organised on an all-Ireland level. Also,

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Eccentricity is not a pejorative description, nor is it wholly POV-linked. I agree that a reasonable NPOV description of an eccentric is one who chooses not to live according to the expectations of the greater society of which he or she is a part.

496:, does the job, as long as most every sports announcer and newspaper in the world refer to the team as "Great Britain"; this is the name that Knowledge (XXG) users will most likely search under when looking up the sports results at the Olympics -- 1291:

That the BOA fields athletes from the Crown Dependencies does not mean that it represents the Crown Dependencies at the Olympics. Under the Olympic Charter (did you look it up? I doubt it), NOCs can represent only one country, and must register

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will be called "doctors" or be regarded as "practitioners" of anything? Also, only lunatics can claim that Kabbalah can be split-off from Judaism, as it would be like saying that a group of lay-people have paid to hear some lectures about

1123:. Yes hockey is organised on an all-Ireland basis, but how many other sports are? None that I know of, but I admit I may be wrong. SO that's one sport out of dozens. But the basic point here is that as things stand, the two categories are 2393:

starlet whose biography (which I presume would anyway be fictitious) is sketchy. I moved them both to "People from Tokyo" (thus perhaps breaking a rule, sorry). Now, there could be a case for "People associated with Tokyo" or similar

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Wow. If you've read my Knowledge (XXG) userpage, you must know me better than I know myself! I'm also really impressed that you feel yourself capable of ending your posts with the Latin term 'QED'. Can you also use the term 'ad

2039:

The use of "alternate" is awkward if not incorrect when used as a noun in this context, in particular to British readers, whereas "alternative" is more natural. Page should be capitalised as we are referring to alternatives to

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Ireland, and you may be correct that ill-informed people may consequently believe that Northern Ireland sportsmen compete for the Irish team (in fact, some Northern Ireland sportsmen do compete for the Irish team!), but your

552:

Sometimes taxonomic arguments are simply irrelevant, as is the case here. "Great Britain" is the clearly uniquely used name by the International Olympic Committee. It is the name used in medal tables on the IOC's web site:

532:, not to repeat that mistake to comfort the ignorant by pretending that they're right. Thus, if one types in the wrong name, it redirects to the correct one, but if one navigates through categories, one will understand the 607:(post-1927), therefore it is the most sensible title for the parent category; however, the categories and articles about each separate games should keep the long form, to make explicit the constitution of each team. -- 910:

seems, understands what the team represents. Thus, my assertion that the name should be changed has become even stronger: the article needs to be renamed so as to avoid any confusion from, for example, yourself. --

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This would be less accurate with regard to more recent games, which are more numerous and will continue to increase while the other group will not. The early articles can be places in the Irish category too.

3107:- a loon, according to the article, but that's not the same as eccentric. And so on. At the very least, people should not be categorized in here without demonstration of "eccentricity" within the article. -- 527:

If the only argument for 'Great Britain' is the frequency of the mistake, that is no argument at all. I'm sure that you know that, in cases of a mistake being common, it is Knowledge (XXG) policy to have a

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per Scranchuse. Worldwide English-language recognition of the team is as "Great Britain", not "United Kingdom". On British Olympic Committee's own website, the reference is to "Team GB":

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educated, so know the difference between the two terms, will choose not to go to the category simply because you insist that it must have am imprecise name. How's that for encyclopaedic?

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who had a movement of millions of followers that went down the tubes of history. But we should most certainly strive with utmost accuracy to describe them objectively but not by adopting

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wasn't categorised as Polish at all, which shows how bad the previous system is. The English category isn't tagged so this vote is currently invalid, but that hardly seems to matter now.

981: 361: 640:, per nom and nom's subsequent comments. A UKoGB&NI topic and should be named accordingly. What the IOC or advertising and PR drones might think is a matter of total irrelevance. 101: 42: 37: 3547: 64: 2843: 2672: 996:

I've just browsed through the BOC's last annual report and the only place where the phrase "United Kingdom" is used is a reference to "United Kingdom law" in the audit report.

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Britain - the deciding factor is whether his sport is organised on an all-Ireland basis or whether it is organised separately in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

843:. I think Great Britain might be described as a geographical area in this context. I agree the name is contentious, but it is the name used within the Olympic movement. 2619:"). Traditionally Kabbalah was an extension of Judaism's varied forms of in-depth religious studies. (c) The confusion arises mainly from those modern followers of the 1232:

provided "The BOA is one of only a handful of NOCs worldwide not to receive government or public finance". Quite clearly the BOA does represent the UK, but it does not

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term United Kingdom does exclude people from the Chanel Islands, IOM (as does Great Britain). I would prefer the term used by the BBC, but that was dismissed before. -

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which I have linked to the category page states "Eccentric personalities are marked by ... disregard for society's norms." This should be able to be judged by NPOV.

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either way on this is probably missing the point that neither "UK" or "Great Britain" is completely correct in terms of the geopolitical origins of competitors (the

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anyone except, or in addition to, the UK (they're be no point; due to British nationality law, any British Islands citizen can be fielded in a UK Olympic team).

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Just a few dozen more instances of the term "United Kingdom law" being used within Acts of Parliament and other publications of the UK Parliament can be seen at

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for deletion/Log/2006 January 16#Category:Great Britain at the Olympics to Category:Great Britain and Northern Ireland at the Olympics

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per nom. I'd like to add an opinion, however, that this should eventually become a root category with separate subcats for winners of each individual Grammy. —

840:'s own site states "Although most NOCs are from nations, the IOC also recognises independent territories, commonwealths, protectorates and geographical areas." 475:

is The State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. Your concern has already been addressed by the informational sentence included on the category page:

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also includes material relating to the period before Ireland became a republic (i.e before 1949) so the name would be questionable on this ground too.

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therefore his agreement to delete it is important. Evidently his intent was well-meant: to create a new category for the Kabbalah Centre people which

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and reverse merge. the other name is tidier and the vagueness allows the cat to be for those either raised or long-time resident, as is the case for

2893:, Rabbi Kadouri, Rabbi Eliyashiv, the Chofetz Chaim, etc. But, this catagory, in contrast, would include people like Ashton Kutcher and Madonna... 2863: 21: 1872:

I think the two categories are about the same subject (lists of magazines). I suggest merging "Magazine lists" into "Lists of magazines" because

3525:

I'm not sure this is the appropriate place for a rebuttal, but Torino Olympics 2006's own page referes to "Cross-Country Skiing" with a hyphen:

3493: 3440: 1042:(where it is in fact defined as "any enactment or rule of law applying in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland"). So perhaps the BO 493: 323: 3327: 2889:" and genuine Kabbalists that are recognized within Judaism. I would not be opposed to a catagory that lists prominent Kabbalists such as the 407:. But I have figured out a good solution to all this whining for my own editing—I simply don't add any British categories, under any name. 2170: 17: 655:. For the simple and undeniable fact that currently Northern Ireland is specifically being left out by calling it Great Britain. This is 1060: 3821: 604: 3864: 2256: 437: 3868: 1892: 1633: 431: 680: 451: 143: 1629: 2006: 837: 60: 2727:

Leifern: Do not worry, no normal person who is knowledgeable about Judaism is going to equate Britney or Madonna with genuine

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inner ear), and manifestly unpopular as a category. Thus I suggest deletion. Incidentally, "Tokyoites" is the only content of

859:. The term "Great Britain", in this context, is misleading. The team represents a country, not an island. That country is the 3905: 1551: 327: 3271: 1584:

Near-complete content overlap here. Most fictional automobiles are custom, since otherwise they wouldn't be interesting. So

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Are you accusing the BOC of writing their own audit report? That would be punishable with serious jail time I should think.

2504: 1418:, the only English pope to date. Recommend the article be merged back into the parent category, and the category deleted. 3576: 1736: 789: 524:

and the like; and I'm sure that 'Britain' and 'England' are used casually by millions of gormless morons around the world.

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and all of their subcats. Note that this would impact more than a hundred categories, but it should still be done. --

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Comment: I just realised the nomination. I don't know if that's allowed but I'd renominate it if it wasn't so it stays.

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