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:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 15 - Knowledge

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October 15

Category:Architectural glossary

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:08, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Architectural glossary to Category:Architecture terms

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Category:Glossaries

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 16:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Glossaries to Category:Knowledge glossaries Category:Glossary articles

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Category:Livingston dynasty in New York

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The result of the debate was rename. David Kernow (talk) 06:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Livingston dynasty in New York to Category:Livingston family

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Category:Chief executive officers

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 16:06, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Chief executive officers into Category:Chief executives

  • Merge, into the much larger Category:Chief executives. It is possible to argue that there is a difference, and that chief executive officers are specific to companies/corporations (that position is hinted at by the inclusion of this category in Category:Corporate executives, but I don't think that distinction is generally understood or agree upon. Certainly up to this point Category:Chief executives has been a more popular choice for corporate CEOs with users. The merge category should be retained as a redirect as it will be a prime candidate for inadvertent recreation if it is simply deleted. Greg Grahame 19:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per above. >Radiant< 22:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - There is a difference between a COO and a CEO, though both are chief executives. I also think that this category needs to be pared. There is a difference between the chief exectutive of a nation, and the chief executive of a corporation. I am rather leaning towards delete. - jc37 09:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per nom. In everyday English chief executive refers to a business role. The other uses are obscure and incorporating them into the category system will only confuse matters. Piccadilly 14:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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Delete because Category:Suburbs of Akron, Ohio was deleted. --DangApricot 21:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

We've deleted several suburbs categories in the past, so I guess these need to go, too. Delete and do not merge, because the articles are already in other subcategories of Category:Greater Cleveland. - EurekaLott 19:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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Category:New York School artists

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:New York School artists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete. Categorizing artists by exhibition, no matter how significant, is not a good idea. If replicated, it would quickly lead to category clutter on artist articles. I'm not opposed to a list, though. - EurekaLott 19:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Greg Grahame 19:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and optionally Listify as this is inherently POV. There isn't any membership list. Surely somebody has classified somebody as "New York School" without their being shown at that exhibition. --Dhartung | Talk 20:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete "New York School" actually doesn't refer to a single exhibition, it refers to an art movement/style which arose in 1950s New York. However, this group is better known as "Abstract expressionists" and we've already got a populated category for that at Category:Abstract_expressionist_artists. Should probably make sure that these are all included in that category before deleting this one. --Bookgrrl 21:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please consider Abstract Expressionism is a collective terminology for an art movement. There are subcategories that define the movement. For example: there is literature on "The San Francisco School of Abstract Expressionism" which is a different style of abstract expressionism then the one known as "New York School Abstract Expressionism." Both are represented by different artists. Their style of work was different. Since there is literature for both and Knowledge aspires to be encyclopedic the definition in my opinion Category:New_York_School_artists is appropriate. The New York School artists should not be identified merely with an exhibition. Although the New York School artists of the 1950s defined themselves broadly within a series of self juried exhibitions that included 257 artists in total there were also others that clearly belonged to this category. I would like to emphasize that what ever applies to this group of artists should apply to the entire "List of New York School artists of the 1950s" that are listed from A to Z under the article: New York School. Although most of them are listed with dates of birth and death they have no articles in Knowledge. Therefore they did not get into the list of Category:New_York_School_artists as of yet. Thank you for your consideration. Salmon1 02:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please Consider Information for the question posed by Dhartung "Surely somebody has classified somebody as "New York School" without their being shown at that exhibition." "The Anxious Object Art Today and Its Audience" by Harold Rosenberg, Horizon Press, New York 1964 p.:206 quote: "The term "New York School" raised the implication that a successor to the School of Paris, or an equivalent to it, had been formed on this side of the Atlantic." further discussion In Chapter 21 p.:237 "When, in modern art, a place label is still applied, as in "School of Paris" or, latterly, "New York School," it signifies not so much a home-grown way of painting as a cluster of styles either newly initiated in that locality or given a special inflection there-works in the same mode are also being produced elswhere. Thus "New York School comprises Abstract Expressionists, Geometrical Abstractionists, Neo-Dadaists, Post-Surrealists, all with collaborators throughout the world." Thank you for your consideration Salmon1 15:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think "New York School" is not completely interchangeable with Abstract Expressionism. Certainly there were non-NY abstract expressionists. I'm not sure the term "New York School" was widely applied to anyone who was not an abstract expressionist. I think a list might be better; I also think we need to clarify the criteria for inclusion, because something like this is useless to the reader if criteria are not clear. - Jmabel | Talk 03:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated (see NYS poets discussion below) --Kbdank71 16:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Leave both the "New York State writers" and "New York State poets" categories. The proposed merge to "New York writers" is not a remedy. First, the latter catgory is ambiguous since it could refer to "New York City" writers. More importantly, whether any or all of the current listees are also "American poets" is beside the point. The issue is the ability to quickly find items organized in a certain way. If one is looking for "New York State poets" or "New York State novelists", one should be able to get a list of such people without having to scroll through a massive list of "American writers" or even "American novelists". Categories like this are useful tools for the user. I favor creating more such discreet categories, not merging them into the equally useful broader ones. User:Cyberbot 17:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 16:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Weak delete, could become very large. -- ProveIt 18:42, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete - illegal where? When? According to whom? >Radiant< 22:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per >Radiant< Olborne 00:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this vague category that will largely be unconfirmable and potentially includes every food on earth. Doczilla 01:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (+ with rename), why not? Please reconsider — did you folks actually read the articles? I read all four currently listed, and they include fascinating food info, most of which I would never have heard of without a category. (Ok, reviewers may want to avoid the jumping larva infested cheese.) "Unconfirmable"? They were seriously referenced as I recall. "Vague"? There could be more articles including endangered species, elephant and tiger poaching for examples; cannabis brownies; Somali khat tea (bogus prohibition, Dr. Andrew Weil says it's like strong coffee); and maybe urban drug-laced foods like pre-1903 original cocaine receipe Coca-Cola, and Vin Mariani coca wine (photo endorsed by Pope Leo XIII). Also certain health foods like Stevia herb sweetener in the USA (partly suppressed because it safely competes with patented synthetic sweetners), L-Arginine in Canada (a major amino acid of meat, suppressed because it seriously competes with pharmaceuticals for dieting), and potent vitamins in Europe where big pharma controls several governments, and may globally control more due to the WTO's Codex Alimentarius. Since eating is not optional, I'd say folks even need to know how food laws are being used and misused. Yet this category couldn't be an unlimited list since most of the world's foods are uncontroversial. Milo 03:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. The first article does not even mention illegal in the article. Bottom line this is an ill defined cat. Vegaswikian 07:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Oh? The first article is Casu marzu (with the jumping larva). Quote: "...casu marzu cheese cannot be legally sold in Italy." • Rome wasn't built in a day, and I'd say rather than ill-defined, the cat is just not yet developed. Milo 10:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The category is ill defined. The items listed are not illegal. They may be controlled for sale in some places as your reply above indicates. However that does not mean the item is illegal. It is possible that it is illegal in that one country but again is that only for sale or does it include possesing it? They may be illegal in a specific area, but that is not the same as saying illegal implying everywhere. However in the rest of the work they are legal. Yes, a category for each country that the food is illegal in could be created, but I don't see a need for that currently. Vegaswikian 19:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment Ok, to include your points, a rename for this cat would cover subcats like alcoholic foods/beverages that are locally prohibited, or sold with conditions. How about: Category:Foods selectively or conditionally prohibited for sale. "Selectively" covers world governments (including local) that do or don't prohibit. "Conditionally" covers high potency vitamin prohibition (Spain, Germany, etc.), and Stevia which can be USA sold in bulk but not added to commercial recipies like soft drinks. Possession doesn't need to be separately considered because a possession ban always includes a retail sales ban. Milo 01:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

General comment {Scratches head} Pardon if I'm missing something obvious, but if not, I propose this category: "Knowledge editors who somehow can't get their delete vote reasons to align with the article facts." Milo 10:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 06:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge into Category:Italian-American musicians, overcategorized. -- ProveIt 18:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was merge to Category:American classical pianists to ensure membership remains categoriz/sed. David Kernow (talk) 07:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge into Category:American classical pianists, Category:Italian-American musicians, overcategorized. -- ProveIt 18:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was merge. David Kernow (talk) 07:03, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge into Category:ZZ Top songs, convention of Category:Songs by artist. -- ProveIt 18:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was delete. David Kernow (talk) 07:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete, appearance in a single film is not a distinguishing characteristic. -- ProveIt 17:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was delete/listify. Listing begun at List of birthplaces of United States presidents . David Kernow (talk) 07:22, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete. This category would be much better suited as a list. As a list it could list the presidents that were born at each place. Many articles put in this category do not even mention that any presidents were born there (New York City for example), A list would have much more information and in a better form. -- Samuel Wantman 17:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was rename. David Kernow (talk) 07:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Rename to Category:The Wildhearts songs, convention of Category:Songs by artist. -- ProveIt 17:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was already deleted. David Kernow (talk) 00:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete, somehow I don't see this as a defining characteristic. -- 16:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was merge with Category:Nazi organizations. David Kernow (talk) 07:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge into Category:Nazi organizations, probably enough for now... -- ProveIt 16:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Actors who have played gay characters

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The result of the debate was delete. the wub "?!" 14:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Category:Actors who have played gay characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
DeleteThis is not a defining characteristic. There might be hundreds of categories for actors based on characteristics of the characters they have played (actors who have played romantic leads, actors who have played soldiers, actors who have played mothers-in-law, actors who have played French kings, actors who have played married women etc etc) but guess which one we have? Yes, the gay one. I am tired of seeing gay categories on article after article for the most marginal reasons. This systemic bias has to stop. Landolitan 16:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • If the category were "Gay characters" then that would make sense. However in most of these articles there's no indication which character that the actor played is supposed to be gay. -Will Beback 18:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, not an important characteristic. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete A trivial category that skews the category system. Nonomy 10:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. GassyGuy 10:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This could become a fine list or article. As such, it could reference the roles played, the dates, etc... All "Actors who have played..." categories should be deleted because it will add to pointless clutter. If playing a specific role or type of role is important to an actor it should be mentioned in the article about the actor. It can then be linked to an article or list. If it is not important enough to be mentioned, it is not worthy of a link. BTW, Jason Alexander played a flaming drama queen with AIDS in Love! Valour! Compassion!. His mis-casting was noted in many reviews, and soured his film career. -- Samuel Wantman 18:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep, useful category, per Will Beback; certainly more useful than Category:Lists of characters on The Simpsons to some. The nomination may or not be in bad faith; the nominator is clearly a homophobe and bigot however as s/he states: "I am tired of seeing gay categories on article after article for the most marginal reasons. This systemic bias has to stop." Substitute out "gay" for "black", "Jewish", "Irish", "Latino" etc. and you can see where it leads. Carlossuarez46 03:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Your comments are intimidatory and libellous. I would object to any attempt to use Knowledge to serve a political agenda, but the only lobby that persistent has the nerve to try to do that, and feels that it is above criticism for doing so, is the LGBT lobby. Blacks, Jews, Irish, Latinos etc all play by the rules on the whole, but you and too many of your allies don't but rather try to stuff articles with as many articles as possible to raise the profile of your cause. The point has been made that this category only exists because the LGBT lobby is hyperactive on Knowledge. Naturally Knowledge's biases are fashionable biases, and the LGBT lobby is the most assertive and self-righteous lobby there is right now. No other lobby shows such a lack of restraint or perspective, or is so ill-mannered to its opponents. Don't you think you sound a little like a medieval priest calling for the burning of someone who has dared to question to teaching of the established church? You make think you are the opposite of that sort of person, but in your shrill intolerance of dissent for the establishment orthodoxy, you are just the same. As for Category:Lists of characters on The Simpsons it categorises articles which are about list of characters on The Simpsons by their two most defining characteristics, ie. that they are lists and that the cover characters in The Simpsons. It also feeds neatly into its two parent categories. That is the function of categories; they group the articles we have in ways that make it easier for people to navigate to them, by highlighting their most essential characteristics. The category under discussion does not focus on essential characteristics, indeed being an actor who has played a gay character might not be in the top hundred defining characteristics of some of the people in the category (as has been pointed out, in some cases it is not important enough for anyone to have bothered to mention it in the article). Decisions about what topics to cover should be made at article level: if the lists of Simpsons characters are deleted as trivial, then it follows that the category should be deleted as well, but for as long as the articles exist they should be in a category that groups them in accordance with their defining characteristics. But here we are dealing with articles about actors, and the issue of the notability of the articles is not relevant. Landolitan 12:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, homosexuality may well be a defining characteristic of the character the actor played, but it does not follow that playing a character with that defining characteristic is a defining characteristic of the actor. I would equally vote delete for "Actors who have played Albert Einstein" or "Actors who have voiced Winnie-the-Pooh". --RobertG ♬ talk 08:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No one has presented an argument for the proposition that this is an essential characteristic of any actor. Hanbrook 13:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:55, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete, Very specific category; the category Hugo Award winning works already covers this, and an article exists on the Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation, Long Form which details the award winners. Also:

Comment The difference is in their length.. Long form refers unto films whereas short: television episodes. DrWho42 03:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Teen comics

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Teen comics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Is this for comics featuring teens? Comics for teenagers? The description says it's for comics about teens/young adults, but the category title is too broad. It shouldn't exist anymore, too broad of a subject. There is comics for pre-teens and adults as well, that doesn't mean categories need to be made, it's just too general. RobJ1981 15:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete Category:GA-Class Countries articles --Kbdank71 15:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge into Category:GA-Class Countries articles, or the reverse, no particular preference. -- ProveIt 15:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was rename to Fictional Bengali ("Bengali" is both singular and plural). David Kernow (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Rename to Category:Fictional Bengali, convention of Category:Fictional characters by origin. -- ProveIt 15:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Real Person Fic

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Real Person Fic (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete, Category with only one entry, and I can't imagine what else could go there. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete, or at least rename to Category:Ice hockey players forced to retire because of an irregular heartbeat. -- ProveIt 15:14, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Tamil sportspersons

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The result of the debate was rename. David Kernow (talk) 07:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Tamil sportspersons to Category:Tamil sportspeople

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Category:Tong Fuk

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:50, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Tong Fuk (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category with only one article. This category is not needed as we have the parent category: "Lantau Island". minghong 12:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Pui O

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Pui O (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category with only one article. This category is not needed as we have the parent category: "Lantau Island". minghong 12:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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Category:Roman Catholic secondary schools in Ayrshire

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Roman Catholic secondary schools in Ayrshire (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete, only two children. already categories for Schools in Ayrshire and for Roman Catholic Schools Smeddlesboy 11:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you suggesting we convert it into an article? In that case why should we rename and not delete the cat? Rama's arrow
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Category:Cape verdean-portuguese people

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The result of the debate was Rename. Nishkid64 23:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Cape verdean-portuguese people to Category:Cape Verdean-Portuguese people

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The result of the debate was rename/merge as nominated --Kbdank71 15:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Rename to a more suitable name. This lists e.g. 007, 42 and 90210 and other numbers from popular works, and the title should reflect that. It also presently contains some numbers with important mathematical properties (e.g. Pi and -1) but we have different cats for that. >Radiant< 08:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • "Famous numbers" sounds weird to me. I mean, who hasn't heard of the number 12? Also, for example, should 24 (number) be in the category or should 24 (TV series)?. You know, if we thought about it long enough, we could probably include every number in the category, if it's going to be about pop culture... loads of films, tv shows, bands, songs, etc, have numbers in them. I think it should be a delete. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 00:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename or delete - it seems to be a trivia category to me, but as it seems it will be kept at least move it to a more accurate name. Oh, and add 42 and 47 - the Ultimate Answer and the Star Trek recurring number are both omitted. KillerChihuahua 10:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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Category:Karloff-Awards

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Karloff-Awards (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
If Google is to be trusted these awards don't exist which is kind of bizzare for supposedly an "American award directed for Horror & Suspense Films since 1976.". I have left a message on the creator's talk page but got no response. IMdB does not seem to know about it either which leads me to think that the award is at best beyond obscure. Pascal.Tesson 06:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a List of groups referred to as cults with the proper disclaimers and established criteria. Categorizing a groups as an "alleged cult", does not provide readers with the context necessary to understand who and when that group was referred to as a cult, and thus violates WP:NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The closing was "nearly a consensus to keep". There was no consensus to keep. The category should have beed deleted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
We require a consensus to delete, not a consensus to keep. -Will Beback 04:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The closing admin could have ruled 'keep but he did not. He chose a pretty ambiguous statement, IMO. I have asked the closing admin for clarification. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep A key point which I agree with Jossi on is that categories don't allow for annotation so there is no way to answer the 'alleged by whom' question that WP:AWW would require. The header at Category:Alleged_cults is one imperfect solution (imperfect due to the inherent limitation of categories which don't allow for annotation). Simply labeling organizations as 'cults' is problematic since the definition is subjective in the usage the vast majority of WP readers would bring to the article--the academic literature on cults is sparse and in disagreement so Category:Cults and by extension Category:Cult leaders will be constantly in flux. List of groups referred to as cults has a codified approach to this problem and the Alleged cults category header leverages this by requiring membership there, which would apply to 'alleged cult leaders' by extension. See also deletion nomination for Category:Cult Leaders by same nominator and I'm pretty sure Category:Alleged cults also has an AfD history if someone can dig it up. Antonrojo 18:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. As Will points out, this category was created as a compromise, something I wouldn't be surprised to find out that many of those voting "Delete" knew already but neglected to mention. Here's the question I have, and that I always bring up every time someone tries to delete one of these lists, categories, or series: What do you want? In which form will you find it acceptable that the POV that there are cults out there which merit concern is represented? Per WP:NPOV it must be represented, being hardly a minority view, yet I swear I see the same names voting to delete List of groups that have been referred to as cults and then voting to delete Category:Cults because it doesn't do what a list could; voting to delete Category:Cults because it supposedly pushes the POV that the groups are cults, rather than reflecting the verifiable fact that they are often alleged to be, then voting to delete Category:Alleged cults because -- because what? Because it is somehow inherently POV-pushing to acknowledge that a great many people do in fact believe a group to be a cult, and somehow it's not POV-pushing to try and squash any mention of that POV? I'll ask again, because I ask this question every time, and strangely enough, no one ever offers an answer: If you're not happy with how Knowledge currently reflects these real-world concerns about cults, what will you be happy with? -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment Respectfully, I suggest that you present a sincerely-felt but logically-false dicotomy. My understanding is that you are saying there is only a choice between "is/are"ing particular cults (when cultic NRMs want to officially deny that label), or "alleging" particular cults (making all of them sound like criminals when only a small percentage are). The reference, aka "referred to", makes for a viable third option, and (so far) it has tested as NPOV-enough at List of groups referred to as cults. (Page find down for my answer to your question "What do you want?" in a comment below.)
Comment No one is stating that there are no such a thing as "cults". The problem is that there is no criteria for what warrants an inclusion in such category. For example, if there is only one source that asserts that groups X is a cult, would this be sufficient for generically categorizing group X as a cult? If the criteria is tightened, so that only groups about which there is wide consensus that they are a "cult", then maybe the category can stay with an appropriate disclaimer and criteria. The second problem for such categorization is that there are disputes about what a cult is annd there are conflicting definitions of the term cult. As such, this category does not specify which definition is used. The article Cult lists five competing definitions of the term. So, which one of these is used to categorize a group as an "alleged cult"? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment I think that if this "alleged" category is changed to a category of references, and remains linked to the rules at List of groups referred to as cults, no additional criteria would be needed for what warrants an inclusion in a category. I supposed folks could still complain about the rules at List of groups referred to as cults, but the "Category:Alleged cults" editors bought partly into that idea on their own. I think they need to buy in the rest of the way, and see if it works as well for the category as at the list itself. Milo 09:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment. I'm not sure about the appropriateness of rearranging other people's votes. Rearranging them like this fails to capture the direction of the discourse and could make it look like the trend over time changed from delete to keep. Doczilla 19:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Or, alternately, could over-emphasize the delete votes by presenting all those to the reader first. -- Antaeus Feldspar 20:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. The closers know how to read a discussion. This was just made into a vote count. Please refrain from doing this again. --Kbdank71 20:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

(reset tab) Comment I think categorization is helpful and more than a vote count because it points out an important split which I think contributes to this CfD repeatedly returning. By grouping the votes in categories tied to specific edits that can be made (and notifying the editors that this has been done to confirm the groupings), it will be easier to figure out what everyone is suggesting. Some delete-vote editors seem to be suggesting relying on consensus to define cults while others argue that it is an inherently subjective category...this is a fundamental difference in deciding how to categorize these groups. I agree that the order of the comments could affect voting...putting comments first is one approach and another is adding a vote count at the top. Antonrojo 21:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not appropriate for one person to decide how everyone else's comments should be arranged. For one reason (among many), some people's remarks may be in response to other people's responses. My "vote" is not yours to play with. (And adding a "vote count" at the top would fly in the face of Knowledge's overt statement that this is not a vote.) Your enthusiasm and conscientiousness are appreciated, but please leave other people's remarks alone. Wryspy 21:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Another approach is leaving the discussion as is. This is not a vote, so categorizing or adding vote counts is not appropriate. --Kbdank71 14:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep this is indeed a difficult case. I'm very impressed by Antonrojo and Feldspar's reasoning, and I'm inclined to agree with them - Clay and Webster in the offing? Rama's arrow 23:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete "alleged" version, or Keep/recreate with rename, like Category:Cult References. I think there would be nothing wrong with a "referred to" or "references" categorization — it's the "alleged" that's most unfairly POV right now. • My other comments on various issues are placed under votes above. Milo 09:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


General comment Antaeus Feldspar also asks everyone (page find his vote section above), "What do you want?" and my answer is: I want a dynamic balance (a bicycle-like analogy) between: reporting of cults using a general terminology that's benign (typically they are a new religious movement (NRM) practicing devotions in locations x and y); and, providing reporting of them that's sufficiently detailed in the current context (say, if ex-members report mind-control or other cultic abuse), while resisting a variety of unbalancing pressures from overzealous anti-cultists and harshly competitive major religions. • Yes, it can be done. Interested editors can educate themselves in both NRM religious tolerance and government/police cultwatch journalism, from the references assembled at Cult and List of groups referred to as cults. Milo 09:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - As noted above, "alleged" - citations/references, which cannot be done in the case. - jc37 09:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. "Cult" is a term used to describe a reilgious group that one doesn't like. Since every religious group has someone who doesn't like them, this category is essentially identical to Category:New religious movements. We don't have a seperate category for "allegedly false religions" – that's because it is similarly identical to Category:religions. The only reason that these inherently subjective lists and categories have lasted so long on Knowledge is that very few adherents to new religous movements happen to be Knowledge editors. What do I want? I want you to keep your religious beliefs on your own website. — goethean ॐ 15:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Just to be clear, I want to retain the category, but renamed with "reference" or "referred to" to replace the biased "alleged". I think you want to permanently delete all such categories and lists, so I'll debate against doing that. • ""Cult" is a term used to describe a religious group that one doesn't like." That is the pre-educated view from where I also began editing. Allow me to pop your stereotype: Alcoholics Anonymous is scientifically-proved to be a cult, is actively engaged in the popularly understood cultic-behavior of mind-controlling its members (Alexander & Rollins, 1984, quoted), but they are proved beneficial to members (Vaillant, 2005), and they are a religious group (the "higher power" belief requirement in Step 5 is neither optional nor trivial); yet, contrary to your definition, most people like or at least don't dislike AA. The term "cult" has several reasonably well-defined meanings, but Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance say that most people only learn one definition and need to learn more. I respectfully suggest that you take their advice — I did. • "this category is essentially identical to Category:New religious movements." They do overlap, but the critical difference is the input from the cult watch mandate via reliable source references. That unnamed mandate, which evolved from decades of fears and complaints by global citizens, was galvanized in governments by the 1978 Peoples Temple cult murder of USA Congressman Leo Ryan. The mandate is implemented by many governments, but is best documented on the national level by the 1995/2005 "French Report" . • Perhaps things have changed at Knowledge since you first heard debate on this subject. I'm not aware of the "inherently subjective lists and categories" that you mention, but I can assure you that any Knowledge category based on the rules at List of groups referred to as cults does objectively point to Reliable Sources who claimed that a group was a cult. You may claim that the Reliable Sources were being subjective, but many ex-members of cults have well-documented tales of emotional, financial, or sexual abuse to tell you about before you make that judgement. Nonetheless, it's Knowledge's categorizing and listing mission only to point to those Reliable Source reports, then yours only if you choose to do further research on whether they have merit. Please allow other researchers that same continued choice. Milo 05:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: Inherently: POV, undefined, subjective. SSS108 17:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete + Comment: Both “alleged” and “cult” are Words to Avoid under Wikipolicy. In particular, the word “alleged” is useless without identifying who is doing the alleging, and - more importantly - the word “cult” suffers from the dual problem that it is both pejorative and lacks a generally accepted definition, which makes it particularly unsuitable for category titles. The List of groups referred to as cults, which includes things as diverse as Alcoholics Anonymous, Jungian psychology, Mary Kay Cosmetics and Knowledge (!), illustrates this fundamental problem: a person’s labelling of a group as a “cult” usually tells us more about his opinion of the group than about the group itself.
In response to Antaeus Feldspar’s plea above “I ask this question every time, and strangely enough, no one ever offers an answer: If you're not happy with how Knowledge currently reflects real-world concerns about cults, what will you be happy with?”:
Here is an answer. Although of course I cannot speak for everyone.
Knowledge editors should adhere to Wikipolicy, and in particular WP:WTA as noted above, and refrain from category titles containing controversial labels such as “cult” or “sect” and from otherwise using such terms to describe groups generally, because they express negative and controversial value judgments that are inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Having said that, the views of anti-cult groups and others concerned about so-called “cults” DO have a place on Knowledge and I have absolutely NO problem with Knowledge acknowledging that such views exist and are in fact widespread. Use of the words “cult”, “sect” etc. are entirely appropriate in that context. The proper form for this would be in the main text of an article, where the reader can be informed that a certain person, group or government considers the group to be a cult or sect and explaining what they mean by the label and why they hold that view. One useful example of this approach can be seen in the article on the Objectivist Movement. — Really Spooky 23:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The difference, Anton, is that in an article you can write and present some context. Catgeories that use two words that are Knowledge:Words to avoid ("alleged" and "cult") are a POV magnet that can be exploited for reasons unrelated to "nagigational aid" as argued above. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:WTA provides stronger support for 'alleged cult' than a 'cult' category when it states "In general it should be avoided--don't say "X is a cult", say "so and so has called X a 'cult' because..."" and elsewhere the same section states that a scientific or sociological definition of cult would be acceptable. In my mind, deleting the article is a stop-gap solution unless there is either a suitable replacement category or a ban on reforming the same category in a different guise. So what I take from WP:WTA is that the best option is to provide a precise, and ideally academic, definition of cult and then provide authorities that state that the group meets this definition. The current 'alleged cults' approach is an attempt to do both, and I think it should be improved rather than scrapped. Antonrojo 04:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:WTA does not provide any support for either “alleged cult” or “cult” as a category. Rather (as you note), it recommends: “don't say “X is a cult”, say “so and so has called X a ‘cult’ because...”. And whilst acknowledging there is a neutral sociological definition, WP:WTA points out that “…the author shouldn't use the term in that sense without explaining exactly what he/she is doing, since that meaning is unfamiliar to most people.” Neither of these aims can be accomplished practically or effectively in a category title; they require further discussion and explanation.
A question to those who want to keep the “Cults” category and others like it: What is it you wish to accomplish? If Antaeus Feldspar’s comment above is any indication, it is to ‘represent the POV that there are cults out there which merit concern’. This is contrary to the letter and the spirit of the categorization guidelines at WP:CG: “Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category.” — Really Spooky 07:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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Yu-Gi-Oh GX categories

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:Obelisk Blue Duelists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Slifer Red Duelists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Delete. Yugicruft, plain and simple. Danny Lilithborne 02:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

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Category:African Female rappers

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The result of the debate was rename/merge to Category:Female rappers --Kbdank71 15:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Category:African Female rappers to Category:African American female rappers

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