Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 21

858:- per Johnbod and Roundhouse0. The school attended is an important biographical detail and is eminently suitable for categorisation. The advantage over a list here is that one can easily navigate between different schools using the parent category. Once we have an article about the school and a sufficient number of verified names to make the category viable, I have no problem with having a category for those who attended. Drawing the line between schools would be an invidious process, prone to acrimony even if the "distinct and unique cultural topic" test was appropriate and workable (and I do not think that it is). Plus, as already noted, to use this discussion as a precedent for equivalent categories worldwide is not going to work. As for the merits of this particular school category, well, it's nicely populated and has some particularly notable names therein. And, yes, don't rename per 573:(I know we usually presume notability for schools, so I'm not planning an AfD!). I take your point about the likelihood of endless battles, which are probably best avoided, but nonetheless it seems to me that these alumni-by-school categories are hard to justify as defining characteristics — a school rarely gets more attention in a biographical article than a mention of its name — and most of them would make neatly compact lists. I take your point about the possibility of endless battles, but that seems to me to be about the only persuasive reason to keep. It seems perverse that we that we categorise people by the school they attended, when we don't (rightly, IMO) categorise PhD holders. -- 4608:. So, for example, different people may identify as members of a single religion, but have widely varying ideas of what the religion means or their identification means; and people may even be formally members of particular religions even if they have disavowed it in many other ways. People can also be members of multiple faith groups at the same time. And yet, religion, like political belief, can be an incredibly defining identity for some people; both by their own internal sense of identity, and in how they are treated or identified socially. 1408:"refuses to invest in companies involved in the arms trade, global climate change, genetic engineering, animal testing and use of sweated labour as stated in its ethical policy", and also regularly surveys the ethical priorities of its customers. Whether any of us agrees with the priorities is a separate matter, but it's clear that these banks are distinguished by applying an ethical screening process to their customers. The use of the word "ethical" in the category may be problematic, but is the term they use themselves. -- 3991:: Politicians act in the name of the people according to their own personal characters. In democratic countries, they are elected based upon these characteristics. In some places (Nigeria, southern Thailand, Northern Ireland, etc), these characteristics are almost as important as the person's political views. Hence, such personal characteristics as religion, ethnicity, and sexual orientation are inherently of notability to the role that politicians play, in being actors in the name, and representatives of, the people. 779:: that this sort of category "should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. If a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) cannot be written for such a category, then the category should not be created". No problem writing such an article on "Old Etonians", but even if "Old Leightonians" could ever be more than a list, I think it would be a million miles from being "a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right". -- 5510:. The present name of the category takes appropriate consideration to the political geography of Norway where many communities are not cities and several companies do not belong to a city or town. However, the main problem is that this change would completely ruin the category's existing sub-structure, which has also been implemented throughout the Norway category hierarchy, of categories by county and then subdividing these when need be. __ 4525:, a strongly anti-abortion social conservative whose favours withdrawal from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the United Nations (UN). Both are accurately categorised, but their example clearly illustrates yet again how the bare use of a label of religious denomination is not a defining attribute of a politician, because the same religious faith can underly utterly contrasting political paths. 4068:) where religion may be as important as political party, or even more important. However, it seems to me that the majority of the people in these categories are not "religious politicians", but rather people of a particular religion who also happen to be politicians, and (as Domer48 wisely notes) were not notable for heir religious views. I think that the solution is to create lists along the lines of 1449:

unethical by most western standards. Which only serves to underline why "ethical banking" is a purely POV call and a category based on POV is problematic. Like "fair trade" or "green" it's purely a tag line used by businesses to obtain an advantage. If we have this category, will we have one that highlights the faux pas of the movement

4507:, an Ulster Unionist heavily influenced by American evangelical christianity. These people are definitely notable for their Methodism, but it was of such a different sort that categorising them together is simply misleading. Contrast those two with one of the UK's most noted recent Methodist politicians, 741:

I have been trying to think of a formalised way of doing this, and I hope you'll forgive me for thinking out loud here. Myfirst idea was to try a ranking of defining characteristics, by asking whether the school (or award, because the same approach could be used there) is likely to be near the top of

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is probably a fine establishment, but it doesn't seem particularly noteworthy, and I see no evidence so far that an education there is a defining characteristic of any of the people in the category (and certainly not relate to their notability). I can see a case for retaining categories such as this

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there is simply no way to categorically identify all these different components. So I have to conclude that religion is not a good category to generally intersect with occupations, nationalities, or other basic biographical categories. Obviously, where religious identity (or beliefs about religion,

4488:, for example, is a devout Catholic who could quote papal encyclicals from an early age, and who was heavily influenced by Catholic social teaching, and it is perfectly reasonable to categorise him as a Roman Catholic politician, albeit a critical one ... but when compared with his party colleague 811:

etc for England, would I think qualify - so why not sub-cat them by school? Every school is distinct and unique - Leighton Park probably more than most, as a small Quaker public school with a definite left-wing flavour, observable in the careers of the alumni - rather like Dartington or the Mount

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1833-1962", "Father was a civil servant", "mother was a web designer", "Fined 2 groats in 1901 for breach of the Street Credibility Act 1798", and "enjoyed horse-racing", we could say that "winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature" would float near the top but that "winner of the South Borsetshire

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Because Judaism was originally the national religion of the Hebrews/Israelites/Jewish nation, and continues to define itself in terms of heredity. Also, I haven't said anything at all about Muslim or Christian politicians. There may be room for them as well, but I am not as familiar with their

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Bencherlite rightly points out why the nomination is wrong. One could of course double upmerge (in fact both models begin with "Porsche" so are not hard to find), but what is gained by that? Lose one category, add two category lines. And what happens when other manufacturers do get their own

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Reply: yes, some banks try to say they have higher "ethical" standards but fundamentally it's propaganda and POV without tying to anything concrete. Do the banks charge or pay interest? Not "ethical" under Shariah principals. Do they take depositor's money without paying interest on it? Sounds

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I still think these should be left as they are. I'm concerned at the low number of editors !voting here, when we know other similar debates have attracted large numbers of people. Presumably the test is to be applied globally, not just to England. I really don't think thousands of categorised

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categories. Because of the mix of counties and cities, the only correct way to name this is by calling it locations. If not, 18 of the 21 subcategories will be incorrectly labeled. This is not very encyclopedic. If someone feels that the norm to name categories means changing the category to

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Seriously, for a moment, I think that the one intersection which may make sense is religion/nationality. A Nigerian Anglican is in general a very difft species to a Canadian Anglican, and an Irish Catholicism has historically had a very different hue to, for example, Dutch Catholicism. Those

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and other distinguished figures - there seem to be even more listed in the article. I really don't relish seeing c on where to draw the line on these, which I suspect are capable of displaying some of the worst aspects of the English character. We have these categories for a large number of

4040:, though only because I think it is the least-worst solution, and I may be persuaded otherwise. If these categories were used properly, and were applied only to those politicians who political stance openly espoused the values of their particular religion, they would be great. People like 600:. I think the existence of the category is fine, but I do think that category names should tell you what the category contains, not be in a code only understood by those familiar with the subject. I'll save folks the trouble of calling me anti-British by saying that I'd feel this way if 3921:: This is a case were a categorization works well in some countries, but not in other. In some countries the political life is divided along religious community lines, but that is far from all cases. Religious identity is not always clearcut, and may be very ambivalent in many cases. -- 5750:

and restore original categorization scheme, as nominator. Note that not everything currently in this category is actually based in Portland. Hillsboro !=Portland, Vancouver, Washington !=Portland, and these and other cities in this category currently have their own subcategories of

4072:, etc ... but so far we don't have such lists. Keeping these flawed categories seems to me to be better than having no groupings of politicians-by-religion, but I would support deletion of any categories where a reasonable list (or even a reasonable start at a list) is in place. -- 5369:. There is only one major city in the world with the name. Other places on the disambiguation page are no doubt named after it. If other places warrant their own category, they can have it with the appropriate regional suffix, no doubt with an appropriate disambiguation link. 803:

articles should be turned loose without a wide debate. The intention above seems to be that only a very small number of mostly very expensive private schools would qualify in each country, which I don't think is desirable. Although even on the very strict interpretation above

994:. This isn't just a neologism, it's an oxymoronic neologism. The word appears to refer to sex toys with some degree of artificial intelligence, and so far as I can see the one thing they all have in common is that they are electro-mechanical objects rather than biological. -- 4528:

In summary it is simply not possible to use these categories without arbitrary and subjective inclusion criteria, and even that leads to such a diverse collection of people that they are utterly useless as a device to "to browse through similar articles" (per item#1 of

4430:-- the point of Knowledge (XXG) is to collect and organize knowledge, not to collect it over a long period of time only to delete it all later. The mass nomination of all of these categories was a major blunder. All of these categories are valid and should be kept. -- 755:

junior gardeners prize" would be near the bottom; and that "Old Etonian" would also get a fairly high priority, but "educated at Ambridge compehensive" wouldn't. If the attribute seems to get high ranking on most of those who could be categorised, then keep it.

1671:. Despite the neologism which makes this appear like a new idea, it's just a technogeek's term for a form of giving which existed for decades, if not for centuries. "peer to peer charity" is a term which could be applied equally well to organisations such as 4284:. There are some countries where religion is a particularly important characteristic for a politician, and others where it isn't. Because these are categories of people, including living people, we should err on the side of leaving these categories out. -- 2215:. Most categories used for software have either "software" or "(software)" as part of the name. Thus quickly identified in lists of subcategories and supporting "Category:software" searches. While not a main article for a category, the relevant article is 1329:

is more precise because the issue is the efforts by some banks to address ethical issues and/or to use their ethical code in marketing. Your revised suggestion also seems to happily covered both the banks themselves and discursive articles on the topic.

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Despite the good efforts of some diligent editors in pruning these categories, the category names will continue to encourage their use for any politician of X religion, so they will require constant ongoing maintenance with plenty of opportunities for

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which probably needs work as well but might be Otto4711's suggested "Internet-only" category. As for this one, "P2P Charities" basically includes 3 articles about organizations which list a variety of charities to which one can donate. This is the

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if it's relevant to the bio, it's in the bio - here we're lumping people together: Bill Clinton is a baptist politician so he has what in common with the folks from the other party trying to impeach them? Christian charity and forgiveness. Hardly.

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as in atheism) is a defining identity, then a category is appropriate for that; but it is rare to make it work as a category intersection. I'm leaning towards delete, for what it's worth, but still not committed enough to bold it. <g: -->

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All of these categories suffer from the limitation as all categories, of being a binary choice, which doesn't allow for any distinction in significance of religion in that person's political career. The example has been cited of above of

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and I agree about making exceptions for truly noteworthy schools on a case by case basis, much as we do for awards and honors. If kept, I strongly agree with Mike Selinker about standardizing these cats to "XXX-school alumni" -- with

1144:- The definition of "ethical" appears to be subjective from the discussion below. As such, this should be a list of banks, if anything, so that references/clarifications can be noted. There is already a small list at the article 4935:

is wholly irrelevant, since that category has its own sources (or lack thereof). So it's not what WP "thinks" but what scholarly consensus and academic publishers and so on have deemed useful and interesting topics of study.

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Please can you explain what you mean by that comment? I'm only a humble bogtrotter from the lands of the bogs and the mist and the little people, but I don't see where the atheist communist propaganda comes tag comes from.

1679:). If someone can demonstrate that an encyclopedic article can be written on the subject of "peer-to-peer charity", I might change my mind, bur fot now it loooks like this has "short-lived neologism" written all over it. -- 5816:- Merging puts things in the wrong cities (trying to avoid the lumping into one large cat), the sub cats need to go back to their former structure, then merge any items listed in the main cat in the Portland only cat. 1507:

Setting aside the question of whether these banks are, or are not, "ethical"; if that's the name of the movement, then shouldn't we use that name? If not, then what is Carlossuarez46's proposed name for the movement?

1871:- I agree that by trainer would be too much. But Ash is the main character, maybe not cats for Misty or the other trainers (I haven't seen pokemon in years, only remember misty). So, I guess this cat could stay. 3891:. (This categorization scheme could be useful if it was reserved for politicians that were members of parties or movements that were overtly religious. However, this is not how it is applied at all. For example, 2279:(just a random article I took from the cat), are refering to to software that run on servers. "Free application server" would imply the actual hardware. This, since the articles are software, support as per nom. 2018: 742:

a potted bio consisting of prioritised bullet points. So in a list of "born 1808", "died 1967", "Minster for silly walks 1891-1933", "father of 4 children", "amateur orchid grower", "native of Borsetshire", "

4931:, which fully expects some intersections to need to exist and others to not. If there are sources to justify an article about Jewish academics then a category is justified. Otherwise, not. Reference to 4299:, per BHG. But as BHG and Domer state, these categories should only be used where their religion is a defining characteristic or related their notability. I've been reviewing and partially depopulating 2734:- Several of the suggestions for "Keep"-ing apply more to whether such information is relevant/"notable" for inclusion in each politician's article, than whether such a grouping system should exist. - 4905:

but Jews and Mormons aren't. Guess WP just thinks that African Americans academe differently than their non-AA counterparts, but Jews and Mormons have mainstreamed. Sad, that, but WP acknowledges its

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I agree, the category does need to be pruned -- having eight individually named institutions in it is what caught my eye. But, there appears to be a real movement that calls itself "ethical banking"

841:- school attended is an essential biographical detail like place and date of birth/death, college attended etc, and arguably more formative than anything else. And keep the name too. Alumni indeed. 1702:

While the concept may be old the collection method is new. I don't have strong feelings but it seems like charities for whom the Internet is its only means of fundraising might warrant a category.

2392:- both as a small category with little probable growth potential and as non-defining. Very few people are defined by the high school from which they graduated. If retained it should be renamed to 3907:

was a Congregationalist politician is defining for him? If anyone thinks these aggregations are interesting enough to keep, I don't see why lists shouldn't be produced instead of categories.

2755: 2253: 2031: 42: 37: 2513:, Contains only 2 articles and is an unnecessary subcategorisation since a tractor is a vehicle. Other (more major) tractor manufacturers don't yet have their own subcategories for models. 859: 640:

I agree with Johnbod here, albeit a little reluctantly. If we are going to keep, precedent is to use the school's own terminology but clarify it where misleading, which is why we have

5015: 1265:(changing my mind), unless the category is restricted only only for articles discussing the subject of ethics in banking, rather than being attached to banks themselves. A rename to 757:

That's maybe a long way round to suggesting that only the most notable schools should have an "old fooians" category. I know that Ghits are a crude and often misleading measure, but

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might help if kept, but I remain concerned that even that category name attached to an article on an individual bank implies a value-judgement on the ethical stance of the bank. --

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While this is a defining characteristic of Ash Ketchum, it's not a defining characteristic of these Pokémon species. There are thousands of Pikachus, but only one owned by Ash.--

4452:. Restrict your comments to the merits of the nomination and please avoid criticising/praising my decision to nominate. That's not what this is about and is totally irrelevant. 4149:

since Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion. This is reflected in 3 of its subcategories, which are for Jews who governed in a specifically Jewish manner/location. --

549: 1610:. Define? Delete? Spell out? Rename? At least let's fix the capitalization. There are three charities listed; they all seem to be Internet-based. Ideas for this category? 5628: 5287:. Manchester is ambiguous and it is not the only one with a category for companies. The other one is already disambiguated in this manner as are other British cities. 1299:. "Ethics in banking" I think is a little vague and could encompass, for instance, scandals, regulation, articles on history of usury, loan sharks, etc. Do you think 5030:

rather than in the institutions of the member states. (I am not sure that this tweak offers sufficient clarification, and would welcome any better suggestions). --

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per nom (changing my!vote). After re-reading the debate, I have changed my mind, because I don't think that these categories are salvageable, for several reasons:

4726:- Noting also to any concerns about Jewish ethnicity (see discussion directly above), that the single member of that category is already in one of its subcats. - 1450: 4504: 1400:. The notable feature of the banks categorised here is that they be the business around having much more strict ethical standards than other banks. For example 723:

on which awards and honors we deem sufficiently noteworthy to merit having a Category. Not sure if that helps -- perhaps BHG would care to take a stab at this?

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Pray tell, why aren't Muslims, Arabs or Christians part of ethnic groups too? Please, if you don't know what you're talking about, just don't say anything.

4056:, who usually keeps his religion private and whose relationship history is not what the RC church would advocate, and it all too-often includes people like 286:

This category is needless and most of the articles in it are currently up for AFD. The remaining three articles would fit fine within its parent category.

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seem to be superfluous. If this category is deleted, I suggest a series of individual nominations of the rest to allow individual assessment of them. --

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model, right? Anyway, there does seem to be some merit in collecting these distinctive umbrella organizations. But I resist "P2P" as the name for it.

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School for girls. I imagine an article could quite easily be written on the subject - from that point of view it is perhaps not the ideal test case.

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all banks consider their operations "ethical" how various third parties may judge the result of those operations is not encyclopedic, it's just POV.

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and countless other help-a-poor child-in-Africa schemes; all that's new is the use of the internet. The terms do not appear to be widely used (only

4300: 266: 1208:, and it seems like a reasonable topic. However, as "Ethical bank" it suggests a value judgment of particular banks and will be prone to misuse. 5648: 5272: 4192:

respective situations, so I can't comment. By the way, should you care to know it, condescension does not encourage constructive discussion. --

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And finally, I think I have a decent answer, by recycling a principle from elsewhere. Why not apply both to schools and to awards the test in

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references, which demonstrate how religion forms part of their notability? If this information is not there, well the cat should not be. --

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are unambiguously Roman Catholic politicians, placing great political emphasis on Catholic social values, and it's very useful having

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was once offered with "customisations such as robotic hip actuators and computer controlled speech feedback". How long before we have

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was deleted last year as being a non-notable neologism, yet a category for the subject has survived. I suggest that this be deleted.

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in the category, but people like him too often are). As Bastin notes, there are some places such as Northern Ireland (and currently

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etc, but those articles would only illustrate the diversity of the political paths followed by adherents of these denominations. --

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The category structure uses the term "amphibious warfare vessels", not "amphibious warfare ships", in order to allow it to contain

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There was another "test case" nom on this maybe 3 months ago, which after much discussion came down on the "special names" side.

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I apologize, but I felt that you were singling out Judaism and thus, for lack of a better word, discrediting other religions.

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would arguably be problematic, but a category about a movement called "ethical banking" is different in its very terms. --

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of religion and profession. From what I can tell, no other "Foo academics" categories exist for other religious groups.

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of religion and profession/activity. Most of these are simple intersections, but others are triple intersections, e.g.,

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Crumbs! I missed that - which one had the artificial intelligence? All the ones I looked at just sat there I thought.

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as per nom. There is only one person in the cat, and he should be moved to his college if that has not been done yet.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 20#Category:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 21

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should only contain companies based in the city of Portland, not any of the cities in the surrounding metro area.

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