Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 August 10

3412:

Wiki; lists of restaurants; how are emergency departments any different that they should be excluded and this information not readily available? Most ER's in New York City are seeing 50,000-120,000 patients a year each x 50. This is a category about an entity that affects millions of people annually just in the New York Area and deserves its own space. Historically there is significant force as well with stories to be told from the experiences at St. Vincents ER after Sept 11th, to John Lennon's death in the Roosevelt ER, etc... There is a culture and history here, as well as useful information that is unique to emergency rooms and not represented adequately on the hospitals in New York category.

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no background that gives one any idea of where they should go for what problem. So it's not a pointless category when you want this info; and this is the biggest healthcare market in the world. As far as the article being dubious: if you are so unfortunate as to have a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm in midtown, a difference of one block can mean you are taken to a hospital with no on call vascular surgery; that hospital would have to transfer you to another hospital nearby, taking up the two hours that could have saved your life. This is potentially very useful info to get out to people. If there are suggestions on setting up the category more appropriately, please add.

2525:. The Holocaust was an event that marked nearly every European country; are we to have categories created for all of them? I see no potential for growth of this category, unless free reign is given to particular editors who have a habit of editing articles merely to push anti-Estonian POV. The creation of this category seems to me to be another blatant, anti-Estonian POV created to paint Estonia and Estonian people in the worst light possible. Several editors seem intent on habitual bashing and revising to push anti-Estonian propaganda. I would also like to add that I am by no means a "one purpose account", as my edit history will clearly show. 2369:. The keep voters accusations of denial show clearly how POV this category really is. It is also UNDUE, because holocaust in Estonia was not a phenomena on its own, but only a small part of The Holocaust. Estonian Jewish population was small to begin with, a lot of them fled, so holocaust among Jews in Estonia, tho even one death is a tragedy, with it's below 1000 dead does not measure in any way up to the three million deaths(3,000,000) attributed to holocaust. Even if we include those who Germans brought here to be killed from elsewhere, this number stays so small that making a separate category for it is a overkill by any measure. -- 2457:

side, I know that ppl can get pretty upset about misspelling, so I apologize (On the side note, what's the point of using non-English letters for nicks on English Knowledge? It is almost as inconvenient for fellow wikipedians to use as Cyrillic or Tamil scripts). Now to the substance of your explanations and accusations. 1st, WP is not known as gathering of mind-readers. So you should not hope that your hidden thoughts will be read by other participants. As it reads, you accused group of wikipedians with long and diverse histories of being single-purpose accounts. That is distortion of the truth.

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law, so we have BLP, V, OR, RS issues. I don't like "accused" categories because they are too apt to be general and subjective and hence fall into the various policy problems. For example, we have whole slews of journalists working in totalitarian societies who could all be accused of fabrication at some level or another. I think that the cats may be valuable in keeping, but their maintenance and likelihood of BLP (and other) problems probably outweighs keeping them, so count me

2445:), what don't you like about it? I am perfectly willing to have my edit history reviewed - in fact, I've already asked an administrator to do it some time ago. He saw nothing wrong with it. Also, Petri Krohn asked others to "dig up skeletons" from my edit history - and came up with nil as well. Either tell me what you mean or stop personal attacks and apologize. In any case, CfD is not a place for those discussions. 2513:(to name a few off the top of my head) had been much bigger both in terms of victims and (in many cases) in terms of involvement of local non-Jewish population. Either WP should have sub-categories for almost all European countries plus Nazi-occupied areas in the North Africa (idea worth looking into), or shouldn't have country-related (sub-)categories at all. Let's use consistent approach. 998:

Brit. English between 'Historic' (=connected to a significant event in the past) and 'Historical' (=old) which can trap the unwary. In American English both words just mean 'old'. From the number of these historic categories that have cropped up in the recent past, the setting of clear criteria to separate historic, historical & other entries appears to cause problems for many editors.)

886:. "Scandals" is the title of the main article so we should be consistent, and it avoids the question of whether anyone needs to be "convicted" of anything. Also, it's broad enough to cover virtually all breaches of journalistic ethics. Plagiarism and fabrication might be the 2 worst sins, but there are others (payments to sources, conflicts of interest, etc.) 2441:) or trying to bash Estonian users - badmouthing and name-calling. When asked for a proof for his blatant lies, he replies that "don't feed the trolls" and refuses to reply. I think his actions speak for themselves clearly enough. Now, as for my edit history (please learn to copy-paste my name correctly, same goes for "Ulo Ogi", I presume you mean 2946:- There is unquestionably a need for an umbrella category to cover all of the varied forms of cultural depictions of the Holocaust. I will come back later and spell this out in greater detail as I do not have time to elaborate on it right now. In the meantime, I would like for people to focus on coming up with a better name for the category. 2868:- leaving aside for the moment the visceral disgust I feel at the notion of linking "The Holocaust" and "popular culture," the category is small and the likelihood of expansion isn't terribly great, and everything in it can be housed in the parent cat (and some of it already is). The extra layer of categorization is unnecessary. 3394:

Imagine you are one of the 8M people in New York City, or one of the millions of tourists who visits every year, you become ill, and you have no idea where to go. Yes, all of the hospitals are listed under Hospitals In New York, but that would take time and a concerted effort to search; and there is

148:. Most of the content isn't specific to the person but is instead related to her involvement with Hannah Montana. The album and song subcats for Cyrus herself are in the appropriate "...by artist" category structures and the contents are all extensively interlinked through her article and each other. 2046:

I suppose I should clarify something. The category title and description, as it stands, implies that it should contain all dead artists and be sorted by their cause of death. I understandably don't like the idea of the category being used to sort artists by all causes of death that have nothing to

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although certain professions may get one killed: journalists, priests are a couple that we have either kept or will likely be kept in some fashion. However, unless I've missed something, artists aren't among them. If more an a random few artists can be shown to have been killed because of their art,

1435:

there comes a point where there are the character articles that stand by themselves. If the articles are so small that they should either be folded back into the comic book character article or "Characters of...", either for the show as a whole or for each season, then the cat cannot be justified. -

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the category and season-based subcategories as non-defining to almost all of these characters. It is impractical to categorize Superman by every single program or film in which he has appeared. Likewise for Lois Lane, Green Arrow, etc. Green Arrow's appearance on Smallville is not a defining quality

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had no secific origin, & are still celebrated/recognised today to a lesser or greater extent. Additionally their historic significance is sometimes not well explained in the article. (Note that categories that use the term 'historic' seem to cause a lot of probles in WP: there is a difference in

685:

this is a tough one which surprisingly hasn't generated the amount of debate that the murdering doctors did. It is the breach of trust that is paramount here like doctors who kill patients (rather than kill strangers) but unlike a murders, plagiarism and fabrication are rarely tried in the courts of

2465:

is pretty tall too. Wealth of sources say that town's name was initially recorded as Kolyvan and it had been done based on the Russian sources, so Ghirla's crime may be wrong wording at most. Calling it "falsehoods" smacks of smear campaign. 3rd, history of your encounters with Ghirla confirms that

1676:

In reading the category description I think the category is probably misnamed. It's really supposed to be something like "Causes of death specific to women", not biographies of women who died. However, I don't know that this is an invalid category idea since it is taking causes of death that only

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There are many people who like to look these things up in advance to know what is available; also, travelers sometimes want to know what is around and available, or people that have newly migrated to The City. It is not about providing medical or emergency advice. There are lists of hospitals on

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television information and categories from the original DC Comics articles being transferred into the new Smallville TV articles, before taking that final step of removing Smallville info or cats from the already existing, crowded articles. Also place a note at the top of every article, explaining

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by Bertold Brecht. And on the basis of a quick look through newspaper/magazine articles I've saved over the last decade, there have been exhibits of Holocaust-related works of art as well as a number of additional theater pieces — in other words, real potential for more articles to be written on

2456:

Wow, that was pretty self-incriminating message. Before continuing about it, I'd like to apologize for misspelling. I've used scripts (Cyrillic and "English" Latin) with minimum number of tildas, umlauts and such for my whole life and concept of four "a"s may be hard to grasp for me. On the flip

3085:

per nom. There are already categories for films & music depicting/interpreting the holocaust - by adding an extra layer between these categories and the top one I don't see that it adds any value. However there may be worth in adding a few extra categories below the top one, for plays &

2470:

edit history here, so offering it for check and bragging that it had been checked before is pretty pointless. 5th, you resorted to personal attack in edit summary, calling me an "Estophobe". So, you've made 2 attempts to smear and tried to switch topics twice in a single comment on behaviour of

2413:

Would be sad indeed. Any xenophobia is shameful, but going as far as being in the member of the "group of one-purpose accounts tries to blame all Holocaust crimes on Estonians" is disgraceful, at least as much as to be a member of the "group of one-purpose accounts who denies the Holocaust in

843:

Basically, the average editor, as well as those who are pushing a political POV, doesn't know enough about journalism to understand the distinction between "fraud" and "controversy". They have no awareness of the notion of "journalistic judgement", much less how it works in practice. Thus,

2414:

Estonia." Could you identify the members of this one purpose anti-Estonian group among those who voted keep here? Or you meant in general? Because if DGG, Petri, Ghirla and myself are indeed "one-purpose anti-Estonian accounts" this needs to be exposed conclusively to a wider audience. --

1712:

in the category. But the category description says that this is not the case, and the category is instead supposed to be only for "categories of death which are applicable only to women, such as death in childbirth or death from uterine cancer." So my suggestion would be to rename it to

2631:- this was considered for deletion previously but it's not linked on the talk page. I don't recall why this was kept when every other supervillain team was deleted. Given that all of the other supervillain teams have been deleted and since there's a comprehensive list in the article 2437:

Actually I was thinking mostly of you, as I don't think that you have even ten mainspace contributions that are not bashing of Estonia or Estonians. But as for Ghirla, all my "meetings" with him have been either promoting Russia (to the point of inserting falsehood to the articles,

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plagiarism or fabrication. I don't see any real problem with lumping them together in one category, since they are the two most egregious breaches of journalistic ethics. But I haven't yet come up with an elegant name for the category. There's got to be something better than

3440:. But a category is unlikely to be needed until Knowledge articles actually exist on the individual ERs (and not the hospitals that they are part of). I woudn't oppose a Move to an article on the topic, provided that the creator pledges to source it and clean it up. 3100:- I honestly don't understand the concern about "adding an extra layer". Not only does this category (properly renamed) serve the useful function of grouping together clearly-related sub-cats and articles, it also has the virtue of reducing subcategory clutter in 827:

In any event, as it stands, this category is far too broadly named, and invites all sorts of inappropriate and/or POV listings. I've just spent more than half an hour looking through the articles in this category, along with the "main article" for the category,

288:, "Many lakes are artificial and are constructed for hydro-electric power supply, recreational purposes, industrial use, agricultural use, or domestic water supply." All artificial lakes are not reservoirs. "Man-made" is not gender-neutral and "artificial" is. 531:- fabrication and plagiarism are very different issues so I question the utility of lumping them together for categorization purposes. It also seems contrary to standard practice to categorize on the basis of allegations for BLP concerns. If retained, perhaps 2047:

do with being an artist (eg. "Artists who died of cancer"). It's possible there might be justification for some of all of the three particular subcategories that currently exist, but I'm not yet convinced this parent category is needed to house them.

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Now as far as whether to delete or keep the category, I'm still up in the air. The main reason I'd lean against deletion is that it the category is well defined and the intersection isn't random. Either way, if it's kept I'd recommend the new name.

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contribution here is completely out of scope of your little chat with Ghirla and Irpen, as I chimed in this vote after you wrote your original message and you could not be responding to me. 2nd, acccusing Ghirla of "inserting falsehoods" based on

1135:

per nom. Its best application is as an in-universe relationship, and even there the inter-linking of the "lineage" articles better serves the purpose than a cat collecting unrelated articles that happen to be "legacies" in unrelated "lineages". -

2020:. Keep as a container category, unless and until the subcats are deleted. Otto is wrong to say that "everything in the category is already appropriately categorized elsewhere", because the sub-cats of this category ought to be subcats of 844:

journalists are easily accused of fraud or even "fabrication", when the issue is really something rather different. As a result, I found all sorts of examples which don't properly belong under this heading, but which certainly qualify as

2381:. It is sad that a group of one-purpose accounts denies the Holocaust crimes of Estonians. As could have been expected, they proceeded to the heroization of fascism in a number of articles which have nothing to do with Estonia (e.g., 2471:

editors you're in "conflict resolution" with. Sounds like an honest attempt of conflict resolution, doesn't it? Would I be Irpen, I would probably add your statement to a list of evidence of disruptive behaviour by "Tartu accounts"

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applies in this case: it doesn't, because these causes of death are notably gendered, and are a distinct topic in their own right. A better title is needed, to clarify that this is not a category for all women who die: I suggest

1932:

Death-by-occupation categories are largely random intersections unless you're looking specifically at something like deaths-by-occupational-hazard. Everybody dies, and most deaths aren't related to your occupation in life.

3066:

is probably the right name for the category. My only concern is the word "depictions", which might possibly appear to suggest "visual arts". So I want to throw this open for comment and suggestions for other possible names.

1557:

Category is redundant, the only article in it is the main article of the same name, there are no other articles relevant to the topic which would not be better suited in another category. No reason for this to be here.

2423:

I have to agree with you in your expression of disgust regarding calling you, Petri, Ghirla one-purpose accounts. On the flip side, this accusation (together with your edit histories) can be good addition to your

3401:

If you are in New York City and are suddenly taken ill or injured, you should most likely be calling 911 instead of browsing Knowledge. Knowledge is not in the business of providing emergency medical assistance.

1104:

undefined category. Even if defined, inclusion criteria would be either ambiguous or arbitrary. Also, a category is not a list. More importantly, a previous article about legacy characters got deleted as

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per Wryspy. Restricting it is impractical to the way Knowledge works; enthusiastic but ignorant editors will try to populate it with every character that has appeared. Same reasoning as behind deleting

1748:(not perfect, but I'm seatching for something shorter than "Deaths by causes of death specific to women". Dugwiki's suggested renaming seems to me to be appropriate for a category of articles such as 2898:

the 2 subcats are already there, the 3 articles can be merged there. This category does demonstrate how useless a moniker "popular culture" is, what's pop culture in Iran isn't necessarily elsewhere.

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Right but are no-name hacks writing the party line in a totalitarian country notable enough for an article? Doubt it. And as I said before, if there are V/RS's then it's not OR and no BLP problem.

3011:) that can be added as subcats to the two subcats already in the category — there should also be subcats for other genres, such as theater, visual arts, classical music, etc. as the need arises. 2259:

was a pan-European crime and was not restricted to any particular country under Nazi control. Categorising on the basis of country could be seen as an attempt to mitigate and minimise the

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your interests are different. It isn't a crime. Calling him "one-purpose account" on the ground of having different interests smacks of smear campaign too. 4th, nobody questioned

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by the same rationale as all other team categories, several of which qualify as "occupations" as much as this does. Also, there have been multiple simultaneous Heralds before. -

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Like I said, under the proper name, this category will serve a very useful function by grouping together all of the subcategories and miscellaneous articles pertaining to

1777:

Point taken on the difference of the names. I'm ok with any new name that makes clearer what the category is actually for. The current name unfortunately is ambiguous.

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Here's why: It's not a team, it's an occupation. In fact, only one being can hold this occupation at a time. So it doesn't fit the definitions used in the team debate.--

1959:

It's not clear, Otto, whether you are suggesting the deletion the cat's three subcategories or not. Dugwiki and Carlos seem to think so. Note that one of the children,

631:

Mere accusation does not justify encyclopedic categorization. Furthermore, "accused" is excessively broad. Who had to make the accusation, how loudly, and how formally?

2398:

If you would actually read the discussion(s), instead of racist bashing, you would notice that no one tries to deny anything. Also, your comment very clearly violates

1419:

and then transfer category from the DC Comics articles to new and defined Smallville character counterpart articles, disambiguation notices placed at the top of each.

1120: 1735:(but rename) as a useful container category for female-only causes of death. I would not support a general division by sex, but the nominator is wrong to claim that 3234:, Alternative schools is the more neutral term. It includes alternative schools at the elementary school level. Alternative high schools is only for high schools. 320:

Man-made is clear about how it was made. Artificial implies that it is not real. In this case, man-made seems to be the more accurate name that is not ambiguous.

595:

Journalists always get away with calling people not yet convicted of crimes "alleged" this or "accused" that to avoid defamation charges. Turnabout is fair play.

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As above, this category is impractical. Unless there are certain ways of death specific to artists (as there are for women, in the previous nom) I'd suggest

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sources about the accusation, that will do. It's the same standard applied to any other BLP information. And I don't think we're not talking about

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by obsfucating the true scope, extent and massive industrial scale organisation required to perpetrate this most heinous of crimes. The category

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as Otto describes. If the list of characters borrowed from the comic books is not too large, perhaps they could be listed in the cat's preamble.

516: 2033: 1765: 380: 2235:- Not small, category now contains eight articles and two redirects with possibilities. In fact, the Holocaust is an important part of the 1677:

apply to women and grouping them together, making it something that isn't a random intersection. I'd recommend renaming the category to

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I see it as objective. There was such a thing, and I see removing it as a sort of denial. There is, unfortunately, room for expansion.

3437: 3049: 1529: 3433: 3307: 3104:. Not to mention properly grouping 7 or 8 articles that are currently scattered among the 169 in the main category. What a bargain! 1537: 3315: 3122: 3063: 819:. Unfortunately (for us), we don't get to use the term "convicted of", which sure make things simpler. Here's another possibility: 3127: 1947: 569:- plagiarism and fabrication are not the only kinds of journalistic fraud but we also don't want to overcategorize too narrowly. 544: 536: 1520: 548: 540: 3298: 3004: 1350:

There are at least a dozen articles here that are series-specific. This show has been on long enough that it probably deserves

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and for man-made ': manufactured, created, or constructed by human beings; specifically : SYNTHETIC <man-made fibers: -->

3429: 2853: 1918:- everything in the category is already appropriately categorized elsewhere. This category offers no navigational utility. 3000: 2268: 2146: 990: 966: 943: 2017: 1745: 994: 962: 939: 856: 716:, the accusation is insufficient. People who were actually found guilty of plagiarism, that's something we should cover. 3223: 2428:

as undeiable proof that aforementioned group is involved in the deliberate spreading of falsehoods and smear campaigns.

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We deleted all kinds of "controversies" categories because of the vague, subjective, arbitrary nature of the term.

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