Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 March 8

4304:

Dali's Last Supper and measured with a ruler - 6 1/2 inches by 4 1/4 inches for a ratio of 1.529. About the closest he comes is Noah's ark, which my King James Bible says was 300 cubits by 50 cubits by 30 cubits. The last two dimensions have a ratio of 1.667, but that's basically equal to 5/3. The formula in the golden ratio article is a lot more complicated than that. So far as the Venus de Milo and David are concerned, those are human figure sculptures, not rectangles, and it's impossible to know what dimensions are being used. You can pretty much pick your measurement and try to make it fit. Likewise, the UN headquarters is a complex of buildings with a lot of straight lines, curves, triangles, and probably some rectangles that are somewhere in the ball park. By the way, my new widescreen TV has a ratio of 16:9 which comes out to 1.778. Is that going to end up in the list, too? It looks like he wants to include any rectangle that has a ratio between 1.4 and 2.0, basically most of the rectangles a person is likely to see in everyday life, not very close to square, but not really long and skinny either (my dresser? my bed? most of the books on my shelf?) Not only is this original research, it's not very good original research. Count my vote as

1123:- There should be no objection to the use of "doctor", because Ph.D.s do not have patients. Arguably it might exclude surgeons (who in Britain have traditionally reverted to Mr on qualifying). Nurses who kill patients (of whom there are examples) deserve a seaparate category. However, this category or soemthing like it should certainly be retained as this is a particularly heinous variety of murder, involving a betrayal of trust. Unfortunately murder of chilresn by their parents (often accompanied by suicide or the murder of an ex-spouse or ex-partner) as too common to be notoriously notable; it is thus a poor analogy. 1206:

certificates - so whether this is enough to warrant the separation of the two groups should be born in mind. I would say that lumping them together is more beneficial than this minor distinction (since not all killer doctors will be the one who writes the certificate anyway: if the death is in a hospital any doctor could theoretically sign it - the article therefore needs to specify whether the killer signed or not). Also, I wouldn't like having 'Physician' in the title, since this does not reflect actual use of English by English speakers world wide (ever popped round to see your

4539:), erase all the category links ("wikis"), indicate sources for each, move the sandbox into a list article, write the sourced information that explain their geometric properties, copy/move the sourced info to the articles of each item, categorize them as "Artistic works designed with golden ratio" (ideas for a possible sharper name will be beforehand requested in the talk page of the list) and that's it. Do I need to repead we are talking about a very sourced, published, limited group of artistic items or did you got already from the previous hundred times I've said it.-- 4362:(several books from 1927 to 1952), which is my main guide, but since you seem to know more than him, then be my guest, lests forget this silly idea and go ahead with the infinite pokemon categories and articles. I was amazed by the amount of works of art that doesn't even have an article. But somebody is trying to make a list that has been published over and over again and a minutes (minutes!!) later wikipedians are campaigning to delete it. Have you even bothered to go ask any architect you know about the matter. God!! 3483:. If you're not going to check out wikiprojects and policy pages to bring point out don waste time with all the unwikipedic "keeps" and "deletes". As far as my opinion go it might be interesting to have a list of historic famous figures that have twins. If not in a category perhaps in a list (lists and articles can really get silly and are still in order with wikipedia's policies) Somebody shold bring up the policy that makes this category worth keeping (or not worth keeping, whatever)-- 3982:(except Italian popes) - There have been so few non-Italian popes that the category can only be a small one, and does not need further division. There has been one English Pope; one Polish; etc. The present pope and his predecessor are the first for nearly 500 years. I suppose there were French popes during the Avigon exile, and perhaps they should be a subcategory. Since the rest were Italian, it is probably not worth having a category for them. 4493:

that's about it. Those are the specific samples exposed in the Golden Ratio publications over and over. (read the items listed, don't you think it's a very specific list? why would anyone specifically choose these items among the infinite work of human pruduction?) People thinking any item can be listed there implicitly expose his lack of familiarity with the topic. I'm an architect, in my formation I heard the words golden ratio as often as I heard

4389:

Anderson about the content of the listed articles not including its auric ratio properties. Good observation. But you have also to take in consideration that we have a chicken and egg situation here: the list of the one by one elaborations. I think I can do all of them, but again don't expect me to have it finished already from the first edit. This thing take time, and wikipedia is for me just a hobby at best.--

4225:"Auric section" is apparently not defined anywhere on Knowledge, and is, as far as I can see, not mentioned in any of those articles. A quick Google seem to indicate this has to do with paranormal something. That's all I managed to find out. Furthermore, the definition "proportions equivalent or close to Phy (φ) in their design" could include virtually everything out there. Lastly, 2462:- another case of American imperialism. No one except in America plays American football. For the rest of the world "football" means Association Football. Related sports, such as Rugby football, Rugby League football, Australian rules football, are generally so described, so that no difficulty arises. It would be better for 1484:. Attacks is simply not defining and too ambiguous. That would allow all of the verbal attacks that are notable to have a category. Is that what we want? If the articles in there are not correctly categorized, then remove them. You don't need a rename. If there is an appropriates new category, then create it. 4509:(and those are the popular ones)... It would be absurd to go and object to a category talking about types of cardiac arrest or russian law. There is a saying: Shue maker go to your shoes (implying that, say, he shouln't try to built his store or make his clothes or car, , if he wants to have them right). 4476:

I'd lean towards deleting the category altogether, on the grounds that the whole idea is absurdly imprecise, as well argued above by Steven. There is no clear way to delimit whether a building should or shouldn't be included. However, if the category is kept, it should definitely use the term "golden

4303:

article says that the ratio is approximately 1.618. The dimensions or the Mona Lisa are 77 x 53 cm. for a ratio of 1.453. According to its article the Pyramid of Giza as originally constructed was 280 cubits tall with a width at the base of 440 cubits, for a ratio of 1.571. I found an image online of

3626:

through this category. (especially since "twin people" is a particularly absurd name). This is pure trivia. Now I know that many users love those trivia categories so as a compromise, we could create articles for pairs of twins who both have articles on Knowledge, so that they may appear in the twins

3427:. I took the time to look at a few of these. While many do list being a twin, they do not indicate that being a twin was in any way defining. If it was, then keeping would need to be considered. Without that link, there is no reason to keep. Also, the result here should probably match the one for 4515:

And again, although you wisely didn't state your opinion as a vote but rather a respectful leaing, I have to remind to everybody in this entire page, nobodies vote matter, this is not a voting, voting isn't aloud in wikipedia, if you do so you show your own lack of either respect for its policies or

4438:

Check out the secondary sources I put above your comment, there are some sketches that analize them in the internet pages. All the examples are there over and over. My tone is bitchier, hahaha, I'm sorry, my underpants are too tight. Nevermind my comments above, I forgot categories can't be moved in

3120:

should remain separate, saying players should not be categorized under teams they didn't play for. Everybody seems to buy that, but we're not using that logic here. It is reasonable to open up the discussion as to whether we should subcategorize all these articles by exact name, and if people end up

4159:

The creator has populated the cat a little, but what he's doing seems to be original research. I don't think any of the articles should be in the cat unless the article mentions something about the golden ratio or auric section without the cat creator bootstrapping. If the cat does survive, I think

3616:

I strongly disagree with the idea that having a twin is a defining characteristic. Note the ambiguity of the term "defining": there's a marked difference between something defining in the sense that is an integral part of how one perceives his own life (and surely, having a twin would fall in that

4357:

However I see the points. I went with auric section, but it has many names: phy, divine proportion, golden ratio, golden number, and many more. There is no original research, it's common for people to be ignorant about the topic, but there are many books on the topic, from luca pacioli-da vinci's

3500:

as having a twin doesn't usually have any bearing on their notability. Sure the Olsen Twins are notable because they grew up in the entertainment industry together. If there is a list, than just use that instead even though a category does require less upkeep. When it comes to the name, if the

1820:

There are no objective criteria to determine whether or not an event is a massacre, so I wouldn't consider the status quo to be acceptable. However others have highlighted the inherent vagueness of using the "attacks". Were firearms used in all of these attacks, and if so, would a straightforward

1606:

states: "A broad definition of the word attacks is used for this list so as to include public attacks on one's self (suicide)." Some "school attacks" have resulted in only the suicide of the attacker, but few such attacks have their own articles (typically they are blended into articles about the

4492:

That's wrong. As as any documental investigator can tell you, the way to delimit a list of the sort is by published material. People that is just learning about the topic might think it is infinite. It is not. Actually, take the listed items, the items I listed in the talk page, add 10 or so and

4382:) Kim Williams Books • De la Divina Proporción. Luca Pacioli, Luca Paganinem de Paganinus de Brescia (Antonio Capella) 1509, Venice • The High Reinassance and Mannerism. Linda Murray. Thames and Huson, 1967 • Historia de la Construcción Arquitectónica. Antonio Castro Villalba. Edicions UPC, 1995 4388:

Every single edit has had these sources as references, but I'm not a damn machine, I can't possibly indicate all my sources from second one, creating an article takes time. Probabbly the best outcome of this nonsense (besides the fact that we inally have the sources) is the comment by Steven J.

1205:

In practice there is very little difference between the way nurses kill and the way doctors do: both use powerful drugs and pick on weak patients whose death will not surprise people. Putting them together is useful. The only real difference between the two groups is that doctors can sign death

3097:

IMHO, the fact that someone was a college athlete is more defining than the era in which he or she played. I think it's better to use modern names and nicknames for all the categories and note changes in nickname or school name in the introductory text. Of course, your mileage may vary. —

3267:. Being a twin person is undoubtedly less defining than being a pod person, but probably more rather defining than the school or university where one studied. Your mileage may vary. The name is simply not English, but the proposals to rename came too late in the day to get much scrutiny. 3055:

In fact, many of the categories where name changes have occurred have notes indicating changes in name and/or nickname, such as OK State, Louisiana-Lafayette (newly added) and St. John's. Point being that this suggestion would actually affect MANY more categories than Arkansas State's. —

829:

website says in the opening sentence - "medicine has arguably thrown up more serial killers than all the other professions put together, with nursing a close second." Covering both doctors and nurses IMHO is therefore justified and will help researches find such cases more easily.

1082:

per the nom. Of course we shouldn't categorize all murderers by occupation, but this is unique in that (A) in the case the occupation is heavily tied to the homicide(s), and (B) this particular category represents a notable topic in literature, news, regulatory politics, etc. —

1647:

Almost none of the attacks in the category were carried out by soldiers or more than one person. I'm hard pressed to find the more generic meaning of the word "massacre" to just mean a "random killing of more than one person" in any article prior to the mid- to late 90s. --

4346:-- Read the policies. Before you start the prepotent nonsense. Besides, I think nobody with no experience on the matter should have a say (let's be practical, what's the opinion of the unfamiliarized people worth anyway?) The practical thing is to ask the experts from the 2487:

not a meaningful grouping, does a Ivorian playing in Malaysia have anything really in common with a Finn playing in Sweden, or someone from Dublin playing in Belfast, or all the non-Monaco people playing for their French league team (probably the whole squad)? No.

2961:

the people who played prior to the name change in no way played for the Red Wolves, any more than teams competed in the Fedex Orange Bowl in the 1950s, etc. Let's be accurate and not anachronistic here. There can be two categories, or just drop the nickname.

4182:. If a reasonable criterion for inclusion can be provided (e.g., that reliable sources attest that the particular work involves the golden mean; see below) then I would also support renaming the category. However "Works" doesn't work for me. How about 1137:

Certain psycologists & family therapists having Ph.D.s have "patients" in US English. I also seem to recall that dentists in Britain are Mr rather than Dr. and some have killed their patients - although molestation is more notable in the literature.

4439:

order to be renamed, so I guess we would eventually have to erase this one, especially since we all agree its name sucks big time (I admitted its since the begining hehe). Just help me decide a better name and give me some time to fill the new category.

4419:

As I mentioned on your talk page, 20-dude, I'm not trying to be destructive. Sometimes I'm snarky with my comments. I freely admit it. If there's something about this in secondary sources, I'm happy to hear it. I just had an opinion and I expressed it.

870:- for all the same reasons it should have been deleted the last time. Categorizing murderers by their occupation is not a useful categorization scheme. Categorizing killers by the sorts of people they killed is not a useful categorization scheme. 350:. Besides the incorrect name of the category (it should be "Games reviewed by Angry Video Game Nerd"), most of the articles populating the category make no mention of why they are in the category. Such mentions typically take up a few sentences. 3660:

I think the only possible distinction is between articles that are about two people (a pair of twins), and articles about one person, who has a twin (who may or may not have their own article). For example, the difference between the article

4403:

Another productive thing about the list is that the lack of articles on trascendental works as most of the famous examples of auric proportion tend to be will be noticed. There wasn't a holy family article, that's a big crime right there.

2586:

If this is deleted, those may go next, I don't propose that as the immediate result of this debate, nor do I want to cloud this debate with the larger issue. If this is deleted, I'll probably nominate the others, and tag them, of course.

4208:, as s/he is using the the Greek letter phi (φ) (albeit with a misdirected internal link) as his/her symbol, as with the Golden ratio. However this does nothing to recommend the category, which remains unexplained and irrelevant. -- 806: 784: 3207:

per Carlos. In this case, simply create a new category and add all current players to it. Categorize all players according to the title(s) of the team during the years they played. Repeat for all other teams. —

4516:

ignorance about them. the key is finding out the right policie addressing the issue closer or the logic that approches our policies better. In this case, the name was proven a mistake and that's it the article

3619:

significant (useful) topics to which the subject of the article most closely belongs to as a member, and where users are most likely to look if they can't remember the name of the thing they are trying to look

958:

If those words were in the name of the category, I would agree. It was simply a shorthand way of referencing what XDanielx articulates below. The point is, these particular crimes are widely considered to be

3518:, for the reasons given by Hmains and Otto. However, I am uncomfortable about the name. It is clearly useful to segregate articles about people from medical/social/cultural articles which are currently in 2299:

to match the parent article and to avoid ambiguity that these are songs somehow associated with Thursday (more Monday & Saturday & Sunday songs than Thursday I suppose, but there are no doubt some).

1765:(see edit histories, around the time this cfd was opened). (Dunblane Massacre gets 21,000 google hits and Dunblane school shooting gets 23.) Kendrick also seems to think that a single person can't commit a 185:) would be ideal; the "free" is essentially superfluous, but may add a bit of clarity for confused editors. Either way, I think the merge is a good idea; I would have suggested it earlier if I'd known that 3617:

class but so would, say, having grown up in a broken home, being married, being an only child) and something that is a "defining characteristic" in the sense implied by the categorization guideline, i.e. "

4254:

Several works might have golden section, but only the ones pointed out in publications on the matter are being listed. Again, I'm not crazy about the name of the category, in fact I'm ating it right now--

3184:. Its just false categorization to rename this. People who played for the Indians but did not play for the Red Wolves don't belong in this category and can be removed immediately as false information per 3142:

per nom. As the context is US, football means American football; and it seems to me reasonable to note name changes in the preamble (as in some alumni categories) rather than have multiple categories.

1787:

The word "massacre" seemed to have never been used to describe lone gunman attack until around the mid-90s. I think it's ambiguous for us to conflate these attacks with actual historical massacres. --

1576:. I agree that "massacre" is not accurate, since some of these incidents were not large enough to be called "massacres." I also feel that "attacks" is too vague. Another option might be to rename to 3559:

If you were an only child, wouldn't that be defining as well? or one of nine children? etc. Many of one's characteristics are defining in the eyes of the person, but not in any encyclopedic sense.

2847: 1633:

would be a member of that. Don't know it that is worth the effort. I guess the question may be, are acts of violence or attacks that are not massacres of sufficient notability for a category?

402:

for all of the reasons stated above. Seems to be a category that could have also been created to promote this particular reviewer, and, as such should be deleted as (something close to) spam.

3070:

And so what if someone is placed in 2 categories because the team changed; we do it all the time - when the Oakland Raiders moved south, then north again, people get 2 cats for their service:

354:

article already has a list of the games it reviewed. The games are notable for reasons other than it being reviewed by the Nerd, there are many other game reviewers of equal standing or more.

4325:

I won't even bother to explain to you why your first comment is so wrong in many levels and puts in evidence your lack of knowledge of the topic you pretend to have a strong opinion about --

3039: 2917:. This change will literally affect hundreds of categories for college (American) football teams. Also, all categories for U.S. college association football teams use "soccer" (example: 154: 4445:

Works featuring Golden Ratio? Artistic production with Golden Ratio? Works with Golden Proportion? You name it, because I'd like to avoid having the whole situation happening again--

1834:

Reading upward I see that there is at least one "knifing" in this category, silly me. Perhaps separate categories would be appropriate for cases involving unorthodox weaponry. —

850: 4001: 1738:

we know what we're talking about when "massacres" replaces "attacks", which could be anything from teachers on strike to rival football fans vandalizing the school afterhours.

42: 37: 3582:. I do not understand the difference between "twin people" and "twins". If the point is that the other twin is NN, I suspect the fact that a person has a twin is also NN. 887:- Of course we don't generally want to categorize murderers by their occupation. This is an exception to that "rule" because it represents such a singular betrayal, much like 2838: 2829: 3010: 3872:

The content of the two categories is virtually identical, and since both are intended to be parent categories with about a dozen subcategories, a split is not necessary.

2888:

provided the word "American" is added before football. To the rest of the world football means "soccer" and I assume that this team does not play association football.

2865:. While the change won't officially take effect until the 2008-09 academic year, I see no reason not to change now, especially since the new mascot will be unveiled on 1518:

per Vegas, and because "School massacre" has I think become an independent term in popular usage, so we do not need to bring in all the general "massacre" issues here.

4535:

For those interested in knowing the plan I figured, it will go as follows: I'll copy the list of items, put them in a sandbox somewhere related to the golden section (

4477:

ratio" or "golden section". These are the standard terms in English. I've seen them used hundreds of times and I don't recall ever having seen "auric section" before.

2834: 2825: 2240: 985:"Inherently noteworthy, IOW "notable," is not the standard used for categorization. If it were then every article on Knowledge would be eligible for its own category. 686:

This is a product catalog of a commercial service. It is equivalent to "Games available at Best Buy". A similar category (for Steam) was deleted on these grounds, see

1003:

I think Cgingold meant notability in the general sense, not in the sense of compliance with our article notability guidelines. Likewise for my own use of the word. —

2421: 1581: 4379:• Geometría del Diseño. Estudio en Proporción y Composición. Kimberly Elam. Trillas, 2003. • Nexux Network Journal – Architecture and Mathematics Online. ( 3024: 2820: 2922: 1680:. Do not remame to "attacks", which is too broad and does not indicate that multiple murder is involved. That is what makes these events so horrific. 2992: 4308:. But, let's give 20-dude a chance to defend himself. I just got a message saying it's the middle of the night where he is and he just turned in. -- 2984: 2918: 2279:

All by-artist singles categories were deleted long ago. If any of the song articles remain, the category must as well, per hundreds of precedents.--

3347:

per nom. I'm not sure there's any such thing as "twin people" anyway. People with twins, sure. (Although even that shouldn't really be a cat.) --

2906: 2676: 2425: 21: 2988: 3735:

or something similar to clear up that confusion. While being a twin is not defining for everyone, it is for some. The rest can go in a list.

2076: 3006: 2910: 1173: 121: 3078:- are they different teams? Well, opinions may differ, but at least our categories are ACCURATE. Let's not sacrifice accuracy for simplicity. 2843: 2862: 1177:- This name has the virtue of being both precise and more concise. A parent category (and a sub-cat for nurses) can be created as warranted. 113: 802: 780: 3177: 3071: 3047: 2243:. This album now only contains a handful of songs which have been released as singles and, as such, should be either renamed or deleted. 232:

has about 3000. Unless you have a good reason why the latter needs to be renamed, I don't think it's worth renaming the larger category.

3164: 3160: 487: 225: 182: 150: 104: 17: 3526:, but first make a sort key for each of the existing articles starting with a space, so that they all sort at the top. Either that, or 3113: 3043: 3035: 3744:

Okay, that makes sense; I hadn't realized the distinction before. Based on that, then, I'm going to agree with LtPowers and support

3020: 1969: 2416: 1940: 4183: 2996: 1948: 4284: 3406:

We usually avoid the term "notable" in the definitions of categories. We also avoid "non-notable". And now you want to use both?

3181: 3075: 2080: 1348: 1287: 507: 3031: 213: 3117: 1725: 1312: 888: 2816: 1931: 3779: 3708: 2914: 2672: 2330: 2296: 2209: 1854: 1603: 1093: 1060: 1013: 389: 199: 4370: 4105: 1320: 374:- I feel this just creates further category clutter. It is also a category that is unlikely to be added to in the future. 229: 186: 178: 158: 142: 3906: 3864: 1470:), but are generally isolated incidents of attacks by lone individuals on schools. The category name should reflect this. 1303: 535: 658: 319: 4425: 4313: 4169: 4113: 3952: 2463: 2436: 943: 466: 4096: 1210:?) - but that's just my personal feeling - I realise our article on the subject uses this non-representative term:)) 4296: 4161: 2470:. Unfortunately, I suspect that will cause confusion, as Americans would add Amercian-rules football players to it. 964: 687: 2509: 2412: 1850: 1467: 666: 649: 327: 310: 4588: 4585: 4567: 4548: 4529: 4486: 4471: 4454: 4429: 4413: 4398: 4334: 4317: 4263: 4246: 4217: 4195: 4173: 4150: 4090: 4031: 4010: 3991: 3974: 3960: 3935: 3918: 3897: 3878: 3852: 3785: 3749: 3739: 3732: 3714: 3652: 3608: 3591: 3568: 3554: 3537: 3534: 3510: 3492: 3469: 3440: 3415: 3394: 3377: 3356: 3337: 3274: 3212: 3197: 3171: 3151: 3130: 3107: 3087: 3065: 2971: 2953: 2934: 2897: 2878: 2803: 2741: 2724: 2712: 2693: 2664: 2596: 2577: 2559: 2542: 2521: 2497: 2479: 2452: 2399: 2337: 2323: 2309: 2288: 2271: 2252: 2219: 2150: 2136: 2124: 2105: 2068: 2004: 1985: 1925: 1861: 1838: 1829: 1812: 1791: 1778: 1747: 1730: 1706: 1689: 1652: 1642: 1616: 1593: 1562: 1540: 1527: 1506: 1493: 1474: 1439: 1377: 1358: 1355: 1297: 1219: 1200: 1186: 1166: 1147: 1132: 1115: 1098: 1066: 1018: 994: 980: 951: 918: 900: 879: 862: 839: 794: 725: 706: 643: 578: 561: 544: 519: 474: 445: 428: 411: 393: 366: 304: 238: 220: 204: 167: 98: 4369:

Rasko Jovanovic, Durmitorska] (An internet published work of an Ukranian mathematician from Belgrade University),

4604: 4071: 4047: 3829: 3805: 3289: 3252: 3228: 2858: 2781: 2757: 2640: 2616: 2377: 2353: 2190: 2166: 2044: 2020: 1901: 1877: 1857:, however this would beg the creation of sub-categories according to the particulars of the various incidents. — 1822: 1669: 1630: 1447: 1417: 1393: 1263: 1239: 765: 741: 619: 595: 351: 280: 256: 74: 4603:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

4046:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

3860: 3804:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

3364:

This provides information that the other sources of info in WP do not provide. It is in alphabetic order. The

3227:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

2756:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

2615:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

2352:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

2165:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

2019:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

1876:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

1392:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

1238:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

740:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

594:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

255:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

4134: 4070: