759:. Given the common meaning of "landmark," any subjectivity involved in determining whether a place/fixed location/monument etc. is "significant" in some way completely overlaps with the determination of whether it is notable—a "landmark" then is just a specific place/site/location for which Knowledge (XXG) has an article. In practice then, the landmark category structure simply serves an article sorting function within country, state, county, or city categories: to segregate out places/sites/locations within, from the articles about people, companies, government agencies, history, etc. I don't believe that anyone will confuse this structure as meaning that all of the entries have been officially designated in some way as landmarks, which is the only possible harm this structure could cause; there's no other way it could be inaccurate unless articles that aren't really about places are included. I also think it's incorrect to say (as the category descriptions currently do) that "landmark" is American equivalent of the UK "visitor attractions"; that would instead be
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statues are with statues, monuments, cemeteries, whatever, all categorized together with specificity rather than as the vague and incredibly overly broad "landmarks". Given the, to be blunt, mania that editors have for breaking down categories by geographical regions, it is doubtful that anything that might be included in a "landmarks" category would not be included in a more specific geographical category. If a city only has one outdoor sculpture or notable church or whatever, then simply categorize it at the next level up (Sculptures in
Illinois instead of Sculptures in Peoria). Someone looking for sculptures in Peoria, upon not finding
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the category itself and the description that is there is tagged as needing a citation) is "anything that is easily recognizable, such as a monument, building, or other structure" or possibly "places that might be of interest to tourists due to notable physical features or historical significance." What is "easily recognizable" to one person may be unrecognizable to the next and such a broad range of things "might" be of interest to tourists that as inclusion criteria it's worthless. The previous CFD does not show that "complete subjectivity is acceptable" and your claims that it does are nothing more than your attempting to make a
1046:? From there all of the various subcats for things in Illinois will be available and say that person then wants to look at, for instance, what other states have notable buildings and structures, they would get to that by accessing the Illinois buildings and structures cat and then going to the parent B&S in the US, then to B&S by country and from there has access to all of the B&S categories for the world. This just seems like having a category structure for the sake of having it regardless of its functionality.
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balance is for an article to be defined by its location with a category that is more general as to type of feature ("landmark"), and to be defined by the type of feature with a category that covers a larger geographic region. And for those localities that do have more specific subcategories, this can function as a parent within that locality's category to group them. As I've said before, if you have a better name than "landmark," I'm open to suggestions. I think we agree though that "visitor attractions" is not it.
660:. The definition offred here provides rather clear inclusion criteria. Perhaps they can be expanded, but they are clearly adequate to describe what is included. Readers looking for such landmarks are well-served by the category structure, and deleting this parent category accomplishes nothing other than to leave the national category structures unconnected.
855:. It would not also need to be in a landmarks category and my feeling is that anyone who is using the category system to find a sculpture article is going to start with the sculpture category, not a landmarks category. This is not necessary as a parent category, as its contemplated contents are already appropriately parented.
1011:: I think Postdlf has presented a very sound and persuasive analysis & argument on behalf of some sort of grouping-category for significant sites/features by location. There is, however, a major issue that needs to be addressed: as has been pointed out, the current name is problematic in a number of respects.
398:. I looked at the members, and the fact that they are trios is not defining. They were mainly know as musical groups and not as trios for the most part. While there maybe a few exceptions, that would mean another category that needs policing. Maybe we need a list of musical families to include all of these?
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The difference of course is that there is verifiable and significant LGBT content in each episode in the category and no reasonable person can deny it. A reasonable person could deny that an object meets the inclusion criteria set forth in this category, which I assume (since it is not spelled out in
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I agree that it would be more consistent with the listings for most other genres; besides which, some LGBT hip hop artists may not identify with the term "homo hop." The term is pretty widely used, though - for instance, try search on it at books.google.com. (Sometimes it is rendered as homo-hop.) I
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In
Knowledge (XXG), "subjectivity" and "objectivity" are rather fluid terms, that seem to vary depending on what article is up for discussion, especially at CfD. There are landmarks in countries around the world. If the demand is to provide a universally-agreed upon definition, we have none, neither
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This deletion listing is stillborn, considering that none of the subcategories have been tagged; you can't delete an entire category structure without giving proper notice of everything that it will effect. Notwithstanding that this CFD then can't accomplish anything but to place all its dozens of
773:"Visitor/tourist attraction" necessarily invokes some claim about the site's popularity and the corresponding behavior of visitors/tourists, while "landmark" is indifferent to that aspect, so that would not be an inappropriate merge target (though by all means, merge the visitor attractions scheme
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The landmarks category is to link it to where it is located, not to keep it from being uncategorized. Most localities are not going to have enough of any specific type of landmark to merit specific subcategories for all of them, nor is it desirable to subdivide categories in that way. So a good
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That is the entire problem with this category structure. What's "clearly" a landmark to one editor is just as clearly not a landmark to another, so whose judgment do we accept and how is it not OR either way? I find it difficult to believe that there is absolutely no body within any country other
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Not redundant, but a good parent to group those specific subcategories together. Further, this provides a home at the level of subdivisions for which there are insufficient articles to merit type-based subcategories. What else do you do with an article for the only public sculpture in a city?
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The existing category structures for anything that might be termed a "landmark" are already categorized by where the structures are located. Geographical features are categorized with other like geographical features, buildings and structures are categorized with other buildings and structures,
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If the sole function of this category structure is sorting, then it is redundant to the many existing category structures that we already have for buildings, natural features, monuments and so on. If we accept that "significance" equals "notability" then literally every article we have on every
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There is certainly an issue with the definition of landmark, although I suspect that this status could be fairly easily sourced to the relatively small number of items in the categories, but I would not be happy to go to the position we did with historic houses, where none outside the US can be
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keep, mainly for reasons of standardisation across categories, though perhaps a deletion/renaming nomination could be had for all of these landmark categories on subjectivity grounds or for the
British ones alone if it's thought that the phrasing here is out of whack with UK
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serve to group the significant sites and features of
Illinois by location? Isn't it likely that someone interested in using the category system to find things located in Illinois, assuming they don't already know even a single thing that's in the state, is going to start at
320:- I think there's a difference between a group of X number of members, two of whom happen to be siblings, and a musical trio composed of three siblings exactly. I don't really care that much one way or the other but I can see encyclopedic interest in this topic.
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should go into a "Prisons in
Illinois" category and so on. The various subcats all appear to have at least one and in most cases multiple parents other than this one placing them in Illinois that are more specific than the vague "landmarks".
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I agree that whether something is or is not a landmark involves POV issues, but some things clearly are landmarks. I therefore see this as a harmless category. In any event (if not kept), it should not be deleted but merged, but to what?
554:- I agree whole-heartedly with the nomination and believe it should be extended to the subcats. If the cat and its subcats are repurposed so that they are for things that have been officially designated as landmarks then I would change to
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should be sub categorized. With that we would have better definitions and would be able to start cleaning up the various categories. I suspect that most will be #2 masquerading as #5. But I say this not doing any research.
963:(outdent) Having lived in Peopria, I can assure you that it has no notable features. But for those interested in finding Peoria-related articles through the category system, they are likely to start either with the article
905:. I again have no suggestion for renaming these categories because I do not believe that these categories are useful regardless of the name because they are so vague and broad. These are the functional equivalent of
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building, natural feature, monument etc. is an article about a "landmark". This is not only inaccurate but if implemented to any degree would swell these categories beyond any hope of utility.
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in it so there's no reason why the others historical sites categories can't go there as well. The sculpture and zoo category would fit nicely with the other cultural topics covered in
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But if someone wants to see what articles we have on notable features in Peoria? You're also overlooking the problem of what to do with all the current subcategory contents of
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of the category should be. For instance, would "buildings and structures" be an automatic sub-category -- or do only certain buildings and structures belong? etc. etc.
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than the US that officially designates things to be landmarks that allows us to set an inclusion standard that's a little tighter than "a thing that people recognize."
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would be landmarks (#6). Clearly #1 would not be encyclopedic in and of itself. So maybe the approach to take is to use the above items to start a discussion on how
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includes multiple entries, and could be a source for future articles, but isn't yet. If there are more articles in the future, the category can be reconsidered.
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A subcategory could be created for the artists, while keeping the general genre category in place as a parent container for that, the head article on the genre,
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Unpopulated; articles in this category have been merged due to insufficient content and lack of notability to one article, which is now in the parent category.
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Unpopulated; articles in this category have been merged due to insufficient content and lack of notability to one article, which is now in the parent category.
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1759:. Only on request, and only if they remain empty for 5 days (and only if they are not emptied as part of a deletion discussion, but for separate reasons). —
1104:. I do have a problem with including all those categories in the state's base category, as none of these individually are primary topics on an order with
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As things currently stand, I'm not entirely certain what sorts of sites & features would/should be included, so we will need to decide what the
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article may be a stub, but the reliable sources provided establish the use of the term. As such, the category should match the parent article.
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think that Otto's question about categorizing items which are not individual artists is well-taken - see also
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971:. Of the articles currently in the Illinois landmarks category I would put the two on state historic sites in
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1088:(not really a building or a structure), and four separate categories for officially designated "landmarks":
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What's needed is a name that is readily understood and lends itself to easily applied inclusion criteria.
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issue here. Repeated arbitrary nominations of categories to be deleted is the worst kind of disruption.
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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_November_18#Category:LGBT-related_television_episodes
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A building with unique design elements or of a notable design or representative of a type of design
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1871:- capitalization fixes can be listed for speedy renaming; they don't have to undergo review here.
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consensus is not to break down hip hop albums by year so this container category is unnecessary.
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a landmark? That would surely depend on size and/or perceptions of its significance.
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For now, the category has two entries, which doesn't make a category very useful.
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was deleted back in July as 'patent nonsense', this is a real genre: see e.g. the
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656:, which set a precedent showing that complete subjectivity is acceptable, per
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which of these would cover that? I'd say not one. Are visitor attractions (
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rather than reliable sources. This is a follow-up to the prior discussion of
1913:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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Insert "-related" in the title. That solves all problems. There is a clear
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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as pointless, but are not empty categories deleted as a matter of course?
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as pointless, but are not empty categories deleted as a matter of course?
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for landmarks nor for any other category in
Knowledge (XXG), including
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An object used as a reference point to locate other objects or places
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Alansohn, if you recall, the outcome of the previous discussion was
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pending a decision on how to deal with the POV and related issues.
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as pointless, as the amin article will provide an adequate list.
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already has two more specific categories placing it in
Illinois,
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An event like the invention of the car or telephone or brass -
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Non-notable intersection. Yes, I realize this started out as
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Albums should be categorized by year and genre, but not both.
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categorised because there are no official lists called this.
381:- I'm with Otto on this one. This is a notable intersection.
2001:
per nom - no need for this category with so few articles.
179:, agree with nom. Soon to be an empty category anyway. --
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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Category:National
Register of Historic Places in Illinois
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all of these are different. If you were to include say,
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Category:National
Register of Historic Places in Illinois
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Category:National
Register of Historic Places in Illinois
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Even presuming liberal merging of its subcategories into
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The sculpture would be in an appropriate subcategory of
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1413:which contains individuals, zines, venues, etc.--
1094:Category:National Historic Landmarks in Illinois
1037:Sticking with our Illinois example, why doesn't
1098:Category:National Natural Landmarks in Illinois
1210:) landmarks? Maybe some but not all. Clearly
1204:Category:Buildings and structures in Illinois
1066:Category:Buildings and structures in Illinois
8:
1842:Category:Portland, Oregon city commissioners
1838:Category:Portland, Oregon City Commissioners
1794:Category:Portland, Oregon City Commissioners
462:. Confusion about what a landmark actually
1173:Landmark has many generally accepted uses:
1076:would at a minimum dump the categories for
654:Category:LGBT-related television episodes
18:Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion
751:sub- and sub-sub-categories directly in
1687:Category:Sword of Truth fictional items
1645:Category:Sword of Truth fictional items
1078:Category:Outdoor sculptures in Illinois
899:Category:Outdoor sculptures in Illinois
590:None of the subcategories are tagged.
1464:, but move the artists into a subcat.
1090:Category:Illinois State Historic Sites
973:Category:Illinois State Historic Sites
901:and they are very unlikely to look in
1145:. Cemeteries is already subcatted in
895:Category:Outdoor sculptures in Peoria
301:Category:Musical groups with siblings
7:
1360:- where do you propose categorizing
931:, for example—dump them directly in
1195:A building designated as a landmark
1114:Category:Transportation in Illinois
1333:Apparently, despite the fact that
627:some things clearly are landmarks.
472:Category talk:Landmarks by country
28:
1930:The result of the discussion was:
1818:The result of the discussion was:
1669:The result of the discussion was:
1541:Category:Sword of Truth creatures
1523:The result of the discussion was:
1499:Category:Sword of Truth creatures
1299:The result of the discussion was:
457:The result of the discussion was:
358:Because no one's created it yet.
238:The result of the discussion was:
84:The result of the discussion was:
2039:List of characters in Camp Lazlo
1450:PeaceOUT World Homo Hop Festival
1362:PeaceOUT World Homo Hop Festival
1339:PeaceOUT World Homo Hop Festival
1147:Category:Human death in Illinois
1456:. That, in fact, would be even
1106:Category:Government of Illinois
1082:Category:Cemeteries in Illinois
102:Category:Hip hop albums by year
60:Category:Hip hop albums by year
1948:Category:Camp Lazlo characters
1906:Category:Camp Lazlo characters
1070:Category:Landmarks in Illinois
929:Category:Landmarks in Illinois
903:Category:Landmarks in Illinois
299:and got moved. However, since
259:Category:Sibling musical trios
214:Category:Sibling musical trios
1:
2028:17:01, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
2011:17:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1992:02:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1982:Nominator's rationale: Delete
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1862:06:50, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1830:21:32, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
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1752:16:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
1733:14:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1721:Nominator's rationale: Delete
1606:16:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
1587:14:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1575:Nominator's rationale: Delete
1423:21:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
1400:19:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1378:19:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1351:16:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
1326:Category:LGBT hip hop artists
1314:21:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
884:23:46, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
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600:06:15, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
586:20:25, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
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545:16:41, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
521:Nominator's rationale: Delete
487:Category:Landmarks by country
481:21:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
433:Category:Landmarks by country
368:14:58, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
350:00:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
340:Category:Sibling musical duos
330:19:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
311:19:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
293:Nominator's rationale: Delete
253:21:51, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
189:18:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
169:15:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
152:20:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
136:Nominator's rationale: Delete
30:
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1940:16:26, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
1679:16:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
1620:00:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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1444:18:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
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1229:20:39, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
1163:20:37, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
1135:Category:History of Illinois
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1110:Category:History of Illinois
1056:19:14, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
1029:13:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
945:03:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
919:02:56, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
408:20:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
391:02:22, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
94:16:29, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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897:, is very likely to check
1208:Category:Zoos in Illinois
1151:Category:Illinois society
1143:Category:Illinois culture
1086:Category:Zoos in Illinois
1003:) 04:17, December 1, 2008
969:Category:Peoria, Illinois
2062:Please do not modify it.
1916:Please do not modify it.
1892:Please do not modify it.
1804:Please do not modify it.
1780:Please do not modify it.
1655:Please do not modify it.
1631:Please do not modify it.
1509:Please do not modify it.
1485:Please do not modify it.
1386:I've created a stub for
1368:, which are not people?
1285:Please do not modify it.
1261:Please do not modify it.
1184:Category:Landmark events
443:Please do not modify it.
419:Please do not modify it.
224:Please do not modify it.
200:Please do not modify it.
70:Please do not modify it.
527:and based on editorial
468:Category talk:Landmarks
338:Then why don't we have
1852:. Naming conventions.
1847:Nominator's rationale:
1331:Nominator's rationale:
1189:An historical building
833:Is a public sculpture
297:Category:Musical trios
177:As creator of category
1149:which is a subcat of
1990:and his otters •
1411:Category:Queercore
1216:Category:Landmarks
977:Havana Water Tower
853:Category:Sculpture
769:visitor attraction
762:tourist attraction
753:Category:Landmarks
533:landmarks in Wales
348:and his otters •
309:and his otters •
167:and his otters •
1322:Category:Homo hop
1275:Category:Homo hop
1074:Category:Illinois
1044:Category:Illinois
1039:Category:Illinois
1005:
991:comment added by
933:Category:Illinois
51:
50:
2077:
2064:
1988:
1987:Ten Pound Hammer
1977:
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1918:
1894:
1835:Propose renaming
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1319:Propose renaming
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985:
965:Peoria, Illinois
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1653:
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1636:deletion review
1629:
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1613:as empty cat.--
1543:
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1507:
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1490:deletion review
1483:
1454:Pick Up the Mic
1366:Pick Up the Mic
1307:
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1290:deletion review
1283:
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1266:deletion review
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986:
907:Category:Things
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2020:Peterkingiron
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981:Joliet Prison
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87:delete, empty
85:
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44:
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33:
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23:
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2015:
1998:
1981:
1932:
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1761:Arthur Rubin
1756:
1739:
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1654:
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1330:
1318:
1308:Stwalkerster
1304:
1301:
1298:
1284:
1281:
1260:
1257:
1237:
1137:already has
1068:, upmerging
1016:
1012:
1008:
987:— Preceding
834:
774:
766:
760:
756:
724:
648:
626:
604:
572:
555:
551:
520:
475:
463:
459:
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442:
439:
418:
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395:
378:
318:Weakish keep
317:
292:
247:Stwalkerster
243:
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223:
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199:
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176:
173:
158:
135:
86:
83:
69:
66:
1826:Philosopher
1242:Vegaswikian
1221:Vegaswikian
835:necessarily
777:instead).
477:Philosopher
400:Vegaswikian
55:November 29
43:November 30
38:November 28
771:redirects.
525:subjective
767:to which
2043:Alansohn
2003:Terraxos
1937:Kbdank71
1873:Otto4711
1676:Kbdank71
1616:Lenticel
1530:Kbdank71
1436:Alansohn
1432:Homo hop
1415:Larrybob
1392:Otto4711
1388:Homo hop
1370:Otto4711
1358:Question
1343:Terraxos
1335:Homo hop
1155:Otto4711
1048:Otto4711
1021:Cgingold
1001:contribs
993:Otto4711
989:unsigned
967:or with
911:Otto4711
857:Otto4711
798:Otto4711
707:Alansohn
703:WP:POINT
685:Otto4711
662:Alansohn
632:Otto4711
560:Otto4711
383:Cgingold
360:Otto4711
322:Otto4711
181:Wolfer68
144:Otto4711
140:this CFD
91:Kbdank71
20: |
1961:history
1757:Comment
1700:history
1554:history
1466:Bearcat
1118:Postdlf
1009:Comment
937:Postdlf
876:Postdlf
817:Postdlf
779:Postdlf
726:English
592:Postdlf
578:Johnbod
573:Comment
529:opinion
500:history
272:history
115:history
2035:Delete
2016:Delete
1999:Delete
1933:delete
1854:Katr67
1850:Rename
1821:Rename
1764:(talk)
1740:Delete
1725:Ladida
1611:Delete
1594:Delete
1579:Ladida
1428:Oppose
1100:, and
839:Pondle
730:Pondle
552:Delete
537:Pondle
396:Delete
174:Delete
159:Delete
138:- per
1969:watch
1965:links
1708:watch
1704:links
1562:watch
1558:links
1112:, or
1072:into
1017:scope
681:point
508:watch
504:links
342:too?
280:watch
276:links
123:watch
119:links
46:: -->
16:<
2047:talk
2024:talk
2007:talk
1973:logs
1957:talk
1953:edit
1877:talk
1858:talk
1748:talk
1729:talk
1712:logs
1696:talk
1692:edit
1602:talk
1583:talk
1566:logs
1550:talk
1546:edit
1470:talk
1462:Keep
1458:more
1452:and
1440:talk
1430:The
1419:talk
1396:talk
1374:talk
1364:and
1347:talk
1302:Keep
1246:talk
1238:Keep
1225:talk
1159:talk
1122:talk
1052:talk
1025:talk
997:talk
941:talk
915:talk
880:talk
861:talk
843:talk
821:talk
802:talk
783:talk
775:here
757:keep
734:talk
711:talk
689:talk
666:talk
649:Keep
636:talk
614:talk
605:Keep
596:talk
582:talk
564:talk
556:keep
541:talk
512:logs
496:talk
492:edit
474:. --
460:Keep
404:talk
387:talk
379:Keep
364:talk
326:talk
284:logs
268:talk
264:edit
241:Keep
185:talk
148:talk
127:logs
111:talk
107:edit
35:<
1840:to
1324:to
1116:.
935:?
470:or
22:Log
2049:)
2026:)
2009:)
1971:|
1967:|
1963:|
1959:|
1955:|
1935:.
1879:)
1860:)
1823:--
1750:)
1731:)
1710:|
1706:|
1702:|
1698:|
1694:|
1674:.
1604:)
1585:)
1564:|
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1548:|
1528:.
1472:)
1442:)
1421:)
1398:)
1376:)
1349:)
1248:)
1227:)
1161:)
1153:.
1124:)
1108:,
1096:,
1092:,
1084:,
1080:,
1054:)
1027:)
999:•
975:.
943:)
917:)
909:.
882:)
863:)
845:)
823:)
804:)
785:)
765:,
755:,
736:)
713:)
691:)
683:.
668:)
638:)
616:)
598:)
584:)
566:)
558:.
543:)
535:.
510:|
506:|
502:|
498:|
494:|
464:is
406:)
389:)
366:)
328:)
282:|
278:|
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270:|
266:|
187:)
150:)
125:|
121:|
117:|
113:|
109:|
89:.
2045:(
2022:(
2005:(
1975:)
1951:(
1875:(
1856:(
1746:(
1727:(
1714:)
1690:(
1600:(
1581:(
1568:)
1544:(
1468:(
1438:(
1417:(
1394:(
1372:(
1345:(
1244:(
1223:(
1186:?
1157:(
1120:(
1050:(
1023:(
995:(
939:(
913:(
878:(
859:(
841:(
819:(
800:(
781:(
732:(
709:(
687:(
664:(
634:(
612:(
594:(
580:(
562:(
539:(
514:)
490:(
402:(
385:(
362:(
324:(
286:)
262:(
183:(
146:(
129:)
105:(
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