Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 July 30

2279:

but this is a red herring. If it were notable the categories would be something like 'Old Brightonians rugby team players', 'Old Brightonians cricket team players'. No-one is trying to rename 'X university alumni' on the grounds that X University also has sports teams, as far as I know.) The 'Old Brightonians Association' will be a formal association with a committee, president, secretary, written constitution, which Old Brightonians can join on the payment of a fee (maybe one-off, perhaps annual). A member of this will be a 'Member of the Old Brightonians Association'. In the highly unlikely event of this being a 'defining characteristic', the creation of the subcat 'Members of the Old Brightonians Association' would be in order. The rugby players would be a subcat of this. (There is no chance of any of these ever having articles on Knowledge, or being mentioned at all except in tedious cfds such as this one, a simple request for an obvious merge of a 1-article misnomer.)

1354:

suggests persons who not only oppose the practice, but who challenge it in an outspoken manner. "Activists" seems to me to suggest political and social involvement more than intellectual efforts. If it is deemed necessary to change the categorization, "opponents" is probably preferable, but again it suggests more a taking of sides than the reasoned challenge which is offered by a critic. Whatever the heading, it should serve to direct students of the subject to thinkers in a variety of fields and coming from various social and religious backgrounds who challenge the prevalent thinking in this area.

2594:

work. So, maybe the broader question should be asked and that is what is the common name we should use in categories to indicate that the student graduated from a specific school? And there may even be a different question that may need answering first. Does notability become established only on graduation or is attending sufficient? And before you jump at answering the latter question, if you say attending then for how long? I'm sure that most would agree that a single day is not sufficient, but then any other choice is arbitrary. So graduating is the notable action.

3790:

you see the point - any categorization of 330 million or so Hindu gods is futile. I would suggest just one and only one category of "Hindu Gods". Along with this a separate category for "Hindu Gurus" and "Hindu Guru-Gods" seems appropriate. Also one would need to clarify that people listed under the "Hindu Guru-God" category are not necessarily regarded as Gods by most of the Hindus. Hope this helps.

2472:). Also that it is WP policy to use British-English terms with British-English subjects. I feel if people want to start renaming these Old Fooians categories then a new discussion should be started, if a consensus can be reached over some of the bigger categories e.g Old Etonians or Old Harrovians, then that is fine. This category should not be the place to make such a radical change. 443:-- The professionals are actuaries (not consultants, which covers a multitude of occupations). They may be employed by insurance companies or be partners in or employees of a firm of actuary, in other words an Actualrial firm. The firm may describe itself as "consulting actuaries" (but not - I think - actuarial consultants) to distinguish themselves from employed actuaries. 2725:. I think the only thing that should be done at this point is to do what the nominator requested and delete this category. If people want to change all "Old Fooians" to "Alumni of Foo College" then another discussion should be started. I would however point out that the discussion mentioned by the nominator above that was closed with no consensus was about changes such as " 4594:, it was decided to change "collaborationists" to "collaborators" and the practice has developed of using "Nazi collaborators" when we are specifically referring to those who collaborated with the German Third Reich, not just "collaborators" or "collaborationists", since the terms by themselves are ambiguous ("collaborated with whom?"). Most of the subcategories of 2497:) use "Old Fooians" when that is the proper term for someone who attended the school. As BDuke says, the "Old Fooian" format is very common. The category name is not unclear - if anyone sees "Old Fooians" at the bottom of the article, all they have to do is click on it and it will say "This is a category for people who attended Foo School". 3873:-- Not being a Hindi speaker, I know exactly what the present category means, but the suggested name means nothing. WP is a worldwide encyclopaedia and needs as far as possible to use internatioanlly understood terminology. If there are problems of definition that are not merely POV, there can be subcategories. 2660:

is an 'Old Cholmeleian', pronounced Chumleian, for obscure reasons) and is entitled to apply to join the association (if there is one). This is all immaterial as there will be no mention of Foo in the article of someone who attended for 1 day. Also in the UK people do not 'graduate' from school; they

2593:

I will grant you that alumni is ambiguous as is the form being suggested for rename here. In the US alumni generally means a graduate. In the UK I believe that it generally means attended the school. So we likely have two different naming conventions that have different problems and simply may not

2386:

Alumnus is a Latin word, and was not used at all in this context in the UK until recently (10 years? 20 years?). If you search the Eton College website for 'alumni' you will get 2 pages, neither of which contains the word. The general term used to be 'Old Boy/Girl of Foo'. 'Alumni' of UK universities

1905:

per CharlotteWebb, by analogy with other categories. An argument could be made that a writer for a video game magazine is a "video game journalist," not a "critic," but I can't find analogous categories for other writers for special-interest magazines (e.g., cars, bodybuilding, firearms). "Critic" it

1103:

for Durham and York, which are cities in England. Candian places of these names have borrowed their names and therefore require a natioonal or provincial suffix. Accordingly the term "York region" might be taken to refer to the area around that city. I am not sure about the other places. However,

4120:

celebrities (and even non-celebrities like athletes and politicians) in the Philippines have endorsed a product or service either through blatant advertising or through exchange deals. You will always hear celebrities in the Philippines greet on television like this: "I would like to thank Basement

3789:

It will be easier if you give me a category and I will give you a god for that category rather than other way around: Male god, female god, half-male-half-female god (not to be confused with modern concept of 'sexual orientation'), or half-human-half-animal-who-is-neither-male-nor-female-god. I hope

3109:

assessments, since it is entirely depending on what specific tradition of Hinduism you belong to or represent; however the bulk of Hindu gods are always called devas by all traditions, thus we will resolve POV problem and still keep subcategories for special cases, that are not representative of the

1376:

in behalf of a given issue, whether by speaking or writing or organizing or committing civil disobediance, etc. etc. We generally eschew categories for mere "critics". Writing a single article that proves to be influential probably doesn't qualify as activism in and of itself. But if they've devoted

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and move . No need for these to be combined since they are very different occupations. While a part of a librarians job may be education related it is much more. Likewise the museum occupations will be moved out after this nomination since it is really neither of these. Some museum occupations, for

2655:

It doesn't mean this at all. Some one from Liverpool is a Liverpudlian (there is no Association); schools without an association may well still have a collective term for their former pupils. It will be in general be impossible to discover whether someone is a member of the Old Fooians Association;

2308:

per nom. I strongly disagree with the reverse merge suggestion. The term alumni is rarely used in the UK, although perhaps it has started to have a little use recently. The terms like 'Old Brightonians' are very common. Take a look at the parent category. At the very least, the reverse merge should

2259:

That is why it is ambiguous. The term is used to describe multiple things be it the rugby team or the association. I will concede that in context the use could be completely clear, but as a category name it is not. Clearly you are building the case that the current name is used in many cases, and

2424:

I wasn't searching for the optimal way of conveying the information to a British person, I was just trying to find out if they would understand me if I said I was an alumnus or the member of the alumni of a certain place. If it is well understood there, and it is well understood in the rest of the

2278:

These are not graduates either. It's a school. In the UK people do not graduate from a (high) school. An Old Brightonian is a person who attended Brighton College. Someone who didn't is not an Old Brightonian. (Such a person may play rugby or cricket for the completely non-notable 'Old Boys' teams

2405:

And if this were Britipedia then the "Old Fooians" designations would be fine. It's not and when most people who use the encyclopeia don't understand what a category name means then there's a problem with the category name. Who outside of the UK is going to have any idea that "Old Paludian" means

2575:

and do not assail the Old Fooians cat format, at least not from this starting point. Strong cases have been made on each side, but the assumption that "alumni" is well understood, and used in the same sense, throughout the English-speaking word is just that, an assumption. Next time this subject

2665:

where the language of tuition is English, further millions in all the ex-British African colonies. India, Pakistan - I don't know but the people in the call centres there speak English, and tell me the times of trains from London. Nearly all UK schools do not have an association (it is a public

1353:

Let's stick with "contraception". NFP involves periodic abstinence, and does not involve contraception at all. A category reserved for those who oppose "artificial" contraception but support "natural" contraception would be so small as to include no one notable. The original category "critics"

3807:

Upon further thought, I realise changing god to deva doesn't solve any problem. Introducing Sanskrit/Indian terminology just confuses things. The main issue that needs to be discussed is if and how a new category should be created for gurus whose followers see them as gods. Even thought

4029:: Admittedly, this would appear to be a pretty silly topic for a category. But to be absolutely fair I have to ask: is there something dramatically different about Celebrity endorsers in the Philippines? I mean, have they somehow attained a stunningly high level of social status there? 4598:

follow this pattern, but not these ones, most of which have been created since the discussion. I'm also proposing that "Executed Hungarian Nazis" should be an executed Nazi collaborators category, since most of them were Nazi collaborators, and not true members of the Nazi party.

2691:'. He has been placed in 'Alumni of Quarry Bank High School' and could equally be in 'Alumni of Liverpool College of Art' but not 'Graduates of LCA' as he didn't graduate. If 'Alumnus' implies academic success at some level then we had better change all the UK alumni categories. ( 1377:

substantial effort to promoting their arguments such that they're understood to be advancing whatever cause it may be, then they are rightly considered to be activists. I haven't looked at all of the articles in this category, but the ones I sampled looked like activists to me.

4121:

Salon for my hair and make-up, Doctora Vicky Belo for my skin care, Doctor Brandon Vinoya for my dental care, Bench for my clothes, Alberto shoes, Watch Republic, Met Gluthathione for my skin whitening, and I would also appear on the following events..." You get the drift.

3535:

This is getting a little bit off-topic but just to let you know, there are lots of women who claim to be avatars of Radha, Lakshmi, Durga/Mother Goddess and Saraswati. I'm not sure how many of them are notable and how many of them have Knowledge articles but they do exist.

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and a proper discussion under that specific heading. I sort of recall that the idea of changing all the 'Old Fooians' categories was discussed previously and was not accepted. I think the British should be allowed to decide what they call their old boys' associations.

2372:

Are you suggesting that if I told someone in the UK I was an "alumnus" or a "member of the alumni" of Brighton College most people would have no idea what I was talking about? I find that difficult to believe, but maybe I'm give the British people too much credit?

2459:

As the nominator I never expected this discussion to quite take this form. I would disagree with the proposals for reverse merging the category. I have tracked down a previous discussion on a similar topic which suggested renaming several of these categories, see

1402:, thanks to Cgingold for explaining the use of "activist" in Knowledge category names. As Rabbet indicated, these people generally consider NFP to be "family planning" or "birth control" (since it results in planned or controlled timing of births) but 2608:

Most of these Schools, if not all, will have an old boys association, probably with a title like "Old Fooians Association". If they allow someone who was there for one day to be a member of that association, then so should we. We should not make up

4382:. The purpose of this category is to identify video games that have not been released outside of the United States or Canada, but the name of the category itself does not give that impression. Hence, my cfr proposal to eliminate any confusion. 390:

The phrase "actuarial firm" is vague and imprecise. The members of the category are all actuarial consulting firms, their employees are consultants, and virtually every one of the articles begin "XYZ is a ... consulting firm". —

3195:-- Not being a Hindi speaker, I know exactly what the present category means, but the suggested name means nothing. WP is a worldwide encyclopaedia and needs as far as possible to use internatioanlly understood terminology. 2527: 2464:. The result was no consensus. I would agree with several of the arguments presented there, principally that 'Alumni' is not used in conjunction with British schools although it is with British universities (compare 2531: 2502: 3750:

because this move would imply a need to translate the names of deities in (all?) other polytheistic traditions covered by Knowledge. This is an English encyclopedia for general use, not website for specialists. --

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where he again failed and dropped out. In UK terms he is an 'Old Boy of Quarry Bank High School' and also of LCA. I have no idea whether Quarry Bank High School has a snappy name for its Old Boys but would suggest

2498: 3581:- you are presenting a solution from your Dictionary perspective, we are however are solving a practical situation (with clear implications of POV problems) that does not have means of being solved by subs and 2695:

did not graduate from Oxford; he would be quite correctly categorised as an 'Old Member of Hertford' or 'Former student of Hertford College, Oxford' but apparently he should not be in the egregiously renamed

993:: Please forgive me if I didn't nominate correctly, as this is my first time and this particular nomination is complex. I asked for help on the talk page, and no one replied, so this is the best I could do. 3357:

and apply it to their Guru. To the non-Hindu, this would probably be the more obvious category. We should probably consider introducing a new category for Gurus considered as God as suggested on the

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just leave, with or without qualifications. You insist on a US-centric point of view - most English speakers and schools teaching in the English language are not in the US. There are 150 million in

3449:

Doesn't making it a sub-category mean that members of the sub category belong to the category, defeating the object of the proposal? This is a question; I am unsure of how wiki categories work.--

4210:, this one's overkill. In a place where even people you've never heard of pass themselves off as a 'celebrity endorser' (such as lawyers and lawmakers), this category seems to be a bad joke. --- 1331:

I did have that in the back of my mind, but it makes the wording more cumbersome. However, I suppose you're probably right that we need to specify "artificial" in the name. In that case, I think

3589:

by all traditions, thus we will resolve POV problem and still keep subcategories for special cases, that are not representative of the whole body of Hinduism. Thus your suggestion is not valid.

2751: 4401:. Can someone explain why this is defining and not OCAT? I can order the game from a supplier and get it shipped and get it shipped, right. Players can also be gotten from other areas. 2350:

They are not unclear in the UK, but the term alumni is. We also name things as what they are called and they are not called alumni associations. I also note that out of 195 categories in

2071: 1139:. If it were 'York region' then I d share Peterkingiron's concern, but the capitalization, denoting the proper noun, assures that we are talking about Ontario's York, Durham and Peel 3630:

is jargon for a non-hindu, god, goddess or deity is NOT. Assumption should be the cat or article is for a non-expert. If a split is proposed, i think again non-jargon should be used.

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per Redtigerxyz, and also because this is an encyclopedia - we need to use the terms that are used by a majority of Reliable Sources. No splitting is necessary. for the same reason.

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may become a sub-cat of the main Hindu gods cat, that is still better because the reader will be informed that these people are considered gods almost exclusively to the one sect.

1122:"York Region" is not used at all to refer to the area around the British city, and neither is "Durham Region". These are exclusive terms to the Ontario regional municipalities. -- 4591: 2759: 2142:

category names make absolutely no sense to anyone not already familiar with the UK educational system. They are a barrier to encyclopedic utility and they should all be renamed.

1269:, rather than merely people who hold a certain view of contraception -- which would allow it to be parented in the category tree for activists. We could, I suppose, rename it to 3105:- you are presenting a solution from a Dictionary perspective, we are solving a practical situation with POV implications, that does not have means of being solved by subs and 2763: 2063: 2059: 42: 37: 2055: 141:

In digging deeper, it appears that there are are least 4 library related articles, one of which should be listed in multiple categories. So I'm amending this to also create

4911:. I'm the one who created this category, and I really don't think it can be added much beyond this. I thought about adding the Nerf games, but they're not really FPS's. 1265:. This category is intended to be used for people who are "notable for their opposition to... contraception". It should be renamed to denote the fact that these people are 293:

per nom - I came across this yesterday and thought it seemed a bit of an odd coupling. (I suspect this category may have made more sense when it was created back in 2004.)

2332:

The British are free to call their associations anything they want. That doesn't mean that those names should be used as category names if use of those names is unclear.

2656:

about 1 in 10 Old Fooians will join the association. Someone who has been a pupil at Foo is an 'Old Booian' (where Boo has some loose connection to Foo - an Old boy of

2159:

per Otto. I think it's sensible to change the Old Fooians to something that will be universally understood and is in conformity with the other alumni categories on WP.

2183:

hints there might be. Like many of the names in this form, they can be ambiguous and unless it can be show that they are not, the the name should not be used.

484:

By the way, what do insurance companies have to do with this? They're insurance companies, not actuarial consulting firms (or actuarial firms, if you prefer). —

1406:

contraception (since no action is taken to render intercourse infertile). With this definition, there is no need to specify "artificial" in the category name.

2429:

who speaks English, regardless of where that person lives? As a Brit famously said, "you can't always get what you want", and even though it would be no doubt

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is not just your ordinary, everday Celebrity Endorser -- she has the distinction of having been named "Celebrity Endorser of the Year" in 2003. (Who knew?)

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with the appropriate articles. If the rename receives consensus the closing admin can drop a note on my talk page and I'll move out the required articles.

3672:

This is neither a Hindu nor Swaminarayan encyclopedia. We just know NPOV. We can discuss and sort the issue out, maybe by a vote or a list of references.--

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at this point. But, I do think these categorizations are problematic, and should be used in a limited extent (only in clearcut, uncontroversial cases). --

3585:

assessments; It is entirely depending on what specific tradition of Hinduism you belong to or represent. However the bulk of Hindu gods are always called

1083:

are, and these are used in the category names. Their articles have dropped the "Ontario", and many categories have as well. These are the "leftovers". --

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were notably Old Etonians ('former pupils of Eton College'); I would be astonished if Orwell joined the Association and surprised if Cameron didn't.

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The only reason for SN to get into this cat was because it was Hindu Deities before. You say:" The Swaminarayans may well reintroduce the category

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NOTE: Can anyone find a link to the last time this exact issue was discussed (at even greater length) here, and the "Old Fooians" form retained?

2131: 866: 713: 623: 2101:, and nearly all the English schools alumni categories use the proper term 'Old Fooians' rather than the US-centric 'alumni' formulation (see 4008: 2778:. New Zealand doesn't seem to have any school alumni groups, but I would be surprised if the term 'Old Fooians' is not found anywhere in NZ. 1490: 1434: 1274: 1261: 1202: 920: 686: 2534:

gets 8 hits, including a Brighton College in Ohio and one in New South Wales. So the alumni formulation is certainly not without ambiguity.

2135: 3981: 848: 700: 632: 103: 3973: 898: 754: 2733:". It as not about introducing the term "alumni", and I suggest that would not even be a no consensus close, but a clear "Keep as is". -- 1302: 835: 610: 4897: 3560:

you should split and subcategorize instead, with descriptions in the subcategories, on how "godlike" the populants of the category are.

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per nom -- I agree with Vegaswikian's assessment. (I suspect this category may have made more sense when it was created back in 2004.)

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Come on now, do we really need this? How about Celebrity endorsers in Botswana? P.S.: If this can be speedily deleted be my guest. --

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to a British person to use the "Old Fooian" designations, they aren't helpful to the vast majority of English speakers in the world.

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Given that, then we are saying that notability is based on membership in the association and the categories should be renamed to

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and the like. While in this case it's fairly obvious that "Old Brightonians" refers to alumni of Brighton College, many of these

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are generally called graduates. 'I went to Brighton College' would be the optimal way of conveying the information to a Brit.

1421: 1399: 803: 718: 4884:, trivial category relating to a largely subjective video game theme that is unlikely ever to be expanded. Also contradicts 4367: 2767: 2494: 2180: 1226: 996:

These cities'/regions' categories should be renamed to correspond to the names of their articles (without the "Ontario"). --

871: 668: 641: 4348: 3353:: I support this, though it only goes half way to resolving the issue. The Swaminarayans may well reintroduce the category 1990: 1711: 1613: 1561: 740: 727: 4437:

That reply does not appear to answer my question. Adding more articles does not negate the over categorization concern.

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gets 3 Google hits, the first of which is for 'Alumni of Brighton College of Technology', a different place altogether.

1277:, but I'm not sure that either of those is entirely satisfactory. Feel free to improve on these, or offer alternatives. 1234: 970: 952: 731: 142: 4575: 4539: 1998: 1584: 1217: 979: 3850:, where it would belong. I would oppose the creation of any 'Guru-deva' category as too confusing. For example, would 3604:

and apply it to their Guru." I agree that new category for people considered gods in Hinduism is a good idea as well.

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in an "Alumni of Foo" format is most unlikely. So, where as here there is an "Old Fooian" format, it should be used.

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So the name is ambiguous since it describes more then the students. This supports the need for a reverse merge.

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would be correctly classified in an education and a museum occupation category. The only other change is to drop

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Thanks for the detailed explanation -- do they really go on and on like that, naming one product after another?

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category and merely distinguishes male forms from female forms, thus it should probably be considered to be

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not only to describe graduates. Would we also apply that name to a business that only hired Old Brightonians?

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The rugby/football/cricket clubs are part of the 'Old Brightonians Association' for alumni of the school - see

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Especially if he/she's making it big time, as in a mother lode of companies cash in on the celebrity, ala-

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is so large at this point that we need to start grouping these in smaller weakly related sub categories.

266:. The one subcat was basically about math related professions and not really computers. I moved it up to 4072:

It is actually a really really really minor award given by a really really really minor modeling agency.

3647: 2910:, a well used category with many sub-categories that was discussed and agreed by the milhistory project. 2627:. Still leaves unanswered what to do with the groups that don't have an association, but are there any? 4442: 4406: 4174: 4160: 4126: 4100: 4077: 3713: 3677: 3635: 3183: 2632: 2599: 2513: 2265: 2228: 2188: 2176: 1840: 1796: 1640: 1626: 521: 485: 419: 392: 279: 150: 132: 4680: 4003: 3847: 3470: 2477: 2079: 2027: 812: 596: 271: 267: 4455:

So it should be deleted? (Not that I care; I don't know what needs to be cleaned up category-wise.)

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something are referred to as "Anti-Xyz activists". So between the two, my preference would be for

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English-speaking world, then how is it not the clearest means of conveying the information to

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Probable alternative is to merge both Goddesses and Gods into one Deities. As it was before.

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The category exists solely for the benefit of a single user and is therefore unencyclopedic.

270:. All of the articles here are computer related so a rename makes sense. I don't think that 4697: 4438: 4402: 4156: 4122: 4073: 3756: 3709: 3673: 3631: 3179: 3150: 2783: 2705: 2628: 2595: 2585: 2539: 2510: 2392: 2284: 2261: 2246: 2224: 2210: 2184: 2110: 1911: 1622: 1359: 1059: 517: 275: 146: 128: 2175:

and the fact that this may also be ambiguous. In searching around I could not tell if the

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school, ie private school, tradition) and the associations that do exist are not notable.

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and it's unclear what distinction there is between a journalist and critic in this field.

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delete:Brighton College (a British public school) alumni are correctly categorised under

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and I'm very surprised that Ontario is not included (there being other Yorks, some New).

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It is currently incomplete. More articles are planning to be added to this category.

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I can see your point. I think the problem would be persuading the Swaminarayans that

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per nom, following precedent of the last timer this exact issue was discussed here.

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was for the school or a military unit. Is there an 'Old Brightonians Rugby Club' as

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The rugby players are all alumni, that is Old Brightonians; there is no ambiguity.

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for the same reason as outlined in the discussion of "Hindu Gods" category below

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.

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Seriously now, is this category even necessary? Endorsers and endorsements are

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_July_30#Category:Hindu_goddesses

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as overly specialized, non-English term, as detailed in nomination below. --

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I can find 5 previous debates which seem relevant to this issue, by date see

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is really suitable as a Category name. There's not a single other sub-cat of

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