Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2008 September 29

696::"BBC Worldwide has also sealed its first format deal in Malaysia, where the satellite channel Astro is to produce its own version of the Great Britons format to mark the country's 50th year of independence. Work on Great Malaysians will begin in June for broadcast later this year. The format has now been sold into 14 countries including Spain (TVE), Holland (KRO), the US (Discovery), Germany (ZDF) and France (France 2)...." From over a year ago. 537:. Absent such sourcing this is overcategorization by shared/similar name that basically amounts to "TV show ideas which were ripped off from other TV shows" which is a road down which I would hope we would not choose to travel. There is a list (also unsourced) and a template, so the articles are more than adequately connected if an actual connection between them is ever established. (oops forgot to sign) 475: 2580:" perhaps). As for Vegaswikian's concerns if we want to make a category like this explicitly include people from the surrounding area, we would remove the city name, not the state name. In any case this has nothing to do with whether the abbreviation should be spelled out. This probably would have qualified for speedy renaming—if not, something around here is broken. — 1120:

the most neglected, possibly because it is all somewhat subjective. I think I nail my flag most to the postmodern mast, which puts me at odds with the many structuralists here. There's a paper on Structuralism and postmodernism as they apply to and influence Knowledge (XXG) to be written somewhere. There needs to be a far wider review of the categories in

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Well the City of Blue Mountains is an local government area (lga) which includes Towns and villages in that area. City of Wagga Wagga is a local government area but unlike City of Blue Mountains, Wagga Wagga itself is a City with the lga covering other towns and villages in the area. I hope I haven't

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I get your points. My point is whether this category is wrong or if everything around it is wrong. I'd rather do an in depth review of the whole chain and make nominations on that basis. How does this category fit in, what is it doing, what else can it do? We can't know that until we know what else

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So you're suggesting that the dozens of for instance home improvement shows with near-identical formats that have sprung up everywhere all trace back to one common licensed show? You have a cite for that rather extraordinary claim? It may very well be common knowledge that similar shows are sometimes

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no consensus. The discussion and the relisting didn't accomplish a whole lot. Overall, it looks like there may be a desire to either find a new name or to otherwise rejigger the category contents within the category tree. Perhaps a subsequent proposal with a more definite proposal would be in order.

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certainly applies to categories as well as articles. Regardless, that a particular television program has been licensed from another similar program is hardly common knowledge. Indeed, you've acknowledged that it is an assumption on your part. You're the one arguing in favor of the category. It's up

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An additional sub-level to go through where? And narrative structure can encompass genre. I'm not sure what in that article leads you to believe otherwise, but don't rely on Knowledge (XXG) for anything. There's a whopping big disclaimer around here somewhere. Our articles on the arts really are

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The delineation from the article "The Blue Mountains area includes the local government areas of the City of Blue Mountains, the City of Hawkesbury, the City of Lithgow and Oberon." is unsourced and likely OR. Having said that, I am not opposed to retaining cats for people from specific regions of

775:

Calm down - have you overdone the pills? I gave you exactly what you asked for & you go into hyperdrive. Do you really believe the blog - of a firm with a reputation to uphold in the business - is wrong, or that 10 mins research would fail to confirm it from what WP laughably regards as a more

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No. It is only the category note that claims that & that does not affect the utility of the category imo. The common knowledge is that very similar formats need to be licenced from the originator. The similarities were very apparent from the articles I saw. I'd point out the nom is to rename -

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as superfluous, as it duplicates another cat within an existing stucuture.. (The Burials categories are getting out of hand, by the way. There's a growing number of "Burials at.." categories where the location is a building, eg, "Burials at X cathedral", and these really have to be "Burials in..";

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per nom. The abbreviation looks a bit unprofessional, so I think expanding it is entirely reasonable. I don't think, however, that it should be deleted - the Blue Mountains is collectively a distinct area, although should be limited to the City of Blue Mountains. It's not really a "region" in the

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are but two examples. Dupas is currently appealing one life sentence before the courts, but will effectively remain behind bars on his other murder convictions even if recent appeal succeeds. If the courts find it appropriate to hand out multiple life-sentences to offenders, then we should aim to

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than merely deleting this one, which possibly isn't the problem. I'm still not sure what the problem is. What is a genre if not a part of the structure of a narrative, part of the tool box a writer uses? Of course, narrative structures no doubt have genres too, but that's what makes the use of

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Thanks for making things personal ("someone doesn't think consistency is important"). I didn't say consistency wasn't important, quite the opposite in fact, "Consistency is indeed a benefit ...", but hey, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I guess this is another lesson in what is accepted

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serving life sentences. Thus, it excludes those who were sentenced to life sentences in the past and have died and those who were sentenced to life but released before death for whatever reason. The rename will bring this category into line with all the other subcategories of

1703:), this is simply a case of excessively narrow categorization. However, this category has been around for nearly three years, so let's just say I'm doubtful. (I must admit, I'm amused by the TOC that's been added, well in advance of the anticipated avalanche of articles! :) 562:

in this category, & generally the article establishes a useful grouping imo. Otto may be right about the category note/description, but that is just an argument for changing that. However the name gave me no idea what to expect from the category (horse-racing maybe?) so

1143:, how clear are the "top-level" subcats in indicating what would be found if the subcat's branch were to be guessed than if it were followed? This cat has 2 members, both of which could easily be upmerged to "fictional characters", making them both "easier" to find. Should 293:

the person and the place. However this CfD is only about a single "burials at cemeteries" category. As nominator, I recommend deletion of this one category as it would confusingly run in near parallel with the existing forms, which have worked well for the last year or so.

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Seems to me to be a change merely for consistency's sake with no actual benefit. The existing names are clear, unambiguous and simpler than the new names proposed. Different names for categories in different place in the category hierarchy are entirely appropriate. --

2188:

You don't have to agree with my statement "blindly". As I also noted immediately afterwards, in some cases consistency is not the best solution, "as when usage differs from place to place". This is simply not the case here; thus, consistency is a benefit.

2156:". Consistency is indeed a benefit, but I am not convinced consistency trumps clarity and simplicity when naming categories. Perhaps there is some guideline or essay on considerations when naming categories that someone could point me to? -- 2724:

includes several people for example. Its just that the idea of regions in Australia is very messy and complicated as other than WA and QLD, the regions are entirely unofficial and this level just doesn't seem necessary. Stepping down from

2232:— such as differences in standard English usage from one country to another — for categories to be named inconsistently with their international siblings, and even then we still strive for as much consistency as possible (i.e. word order). 742:

And excuse me, but you've been here more than long enough to know that once something is brought to CFD all options are on the table, so spare me this eyelash-batting disingenuous "this was supposed to be about renaming!" nonsense.

2455:-- per nominator's rationale. Totally agree with the reasoning presented. The sub-category is useful in the sense that there are a number of prisoners who have not received one life sentence, but multiple, for various offences. 2254:

practise here. What I did say is that I did not think consistency is the be and end all of category names especially when the proposed name is more complex and adds no more clarity than the name that currently exists. If we

2138:. In some cases, yes, as when usage differs from place to place. In this instance, there is no good reason to keep the Australian ones and Canadian ones different, especially when they don't conform with their own parents. 2624:, per nominator's rationale, although I am unconvinced that the category is a necessary or well-delineated category; Blue Mountains being a rather amorphous region rather than a locality per se. No doubt others at 316:

and a further and growing number of permanently minute cats for smallish churches, dissolved monasteries, etc, which can only ever have 2-3 burials - all this for later, but the whole lot needs a good clearout).

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be consistent I would rename the other categories in this class to bring them into line with the two listed here. I'm under no illusions that this is likely to happen, nevertheless that is my preference. --

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Thanks for the link. Having looked at a few (Argentina, Sth Africa, Russia etc) the format would seem to be sufficiently similar to suggest licenses were involved. If one could be bothered to register at

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meaningful difference between the two is that one isn't consistent with the naming conventions and the other is, isn't really a valid reason to ignore consistency. There generally has to be an actual

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Is that a case then of people placing the articles in the wrong cats, rather than the need for the former to be deleted? Can the latter be created, and populated with some of the mis-cat'd articles?

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and move articles around. That would probably require going through the songs in this category to figure out if they're actually electronica or if they fit in the broader electronic category. But

2370: 42: 37: 2177:- this project by its diverse nature requires continued diversity rather than consistency in many cases - however for this CfD I do not see problems with moving to a consistent set of naming.-- 483: 2836:? In other words, are people from that area generally though of as being from the city even if they are not? This is the case for some of the metropolitan areas for cities in the US. 1359: 1179:

I think the cartegory might be usefully renamed, but to what? fictional characters by nature of the narrative? I do not think this very lear, but am not sure i can find a clearer.

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it would probable say which markets have had licenses granted. I still think the category worth maintaining. The grouping here is more interesting than in most licensed tv shows.

2426:

Yes I concur with the logic contained in the nominator's rationale, and agree with Matt's view on the sub-cat for multiple life sentences but am happy to let it stand also.--

724:

If you're now saying that these shows should be lumped together whether there's any relationship between them or not, then that's clearly overcategorization by shared name.

2681:. Segregating people who are from this area into a people from category seems perfectly reasonable. Renaming for consistency with the parent category makes complete sense. 1699:

and upmerge the lone article to both of the parent cats. Unless there are a bunch of other such webcomics that are just waiting for articles to be written (and that meet

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per nominator's rationale. I'm not personally convinced that the sub-category for multiple life sentences is useful but have no objections to letting it stand. --

412:. I'm not entirely sure this category is even necessary or helpful, but in any case, there are lots of places called Salem and this needs to be disambiguated. 2730: 2698: 2071: 2697:

Disagee about keeping the region. I rather keep it as the birth place or the location that they lived in then having the area/region. Albury has it's own (

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same sense some of the other places are, in that it's a collection of about 10 towns, some of them quite large ones, mostly on a single highway/rallway.

2641:, I also agree with what Matt has said and I would rather see the notable people be categorized to a category of their birth place rather then a region. 2062: 1269:

For one thing, the convention would seem to be "Fictional characters...". But, I'm not sure if perhaps this should merely be UpMerged/Deleted. (See also

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cat be kept for future development? Or should it be deleted as it is currently creating an "extra step" for navigation in order to find specific cats? -

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I don't think these lists are sufficiently neutral and reliable. By adding them to our category structure we give them credibility they don't deserve. __

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I'm guessing that I'm not being clear in what I'm attempting to convey. I'm looking at the navigation aspect of the cat primarily. If someone comes to

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Minded to say keep. I'm not sure I understand why it is difficult to find the members? How are we imagining people happen upon this category?

1384: 1270: 2597: 17: 2278: 1538: 1125:"Literary characters by genre of work" such a good title. Context. If you want to delete it, delete it. It would save a pointless argument. 2833: 2794: 2726: 2274: 2366: 1038: 568: 1044:

I think that this cat makes it more difficult to find the member cats, not easier. If kept, this should be renamed, at the very least. -

2702: 533:- I checked almost all of the articles and none of them contain sourcing for the assertion that any of these shows bear any relation to 514:. Capitalization (It is not a title of something by ityself, and in wikipedia tiltes (articles, sections, etc.) are non-capitalized). 776:"reliable" source, like a newspaper? Try Googling BBC Worldwide & other relevant terms, or register on their site like I said. 1258: 2829: 2593: 1402: 247: 2678: 1949: 1859: 146: 2067: 2845: 2823: 2806: 2781: 2768: 2755: 2738: 2714: 2690: 2663: 2650: 2633: 2615: 2584: 2521: 2496: 2478: 2474:

Isn't "sentenced to multiple life sentences" a little bit redundant? Hopefully we can find some better way to say this. —

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until there is a proposal for how to rework the entire chain. Personally, i don't think its all that bad as it is.

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will be a large category if fully populated; it would then be sensible to subcat by country and we would then have

150: 1646:. Adjusted categories in the lone article. There were several for webcominics already so I did not add one more. 1296: 1945: 1937: 1933: 1929: 1911: 1903: 1899: 1855: 1834: 1671: 1304: 933: 890: 874: 503: 2862:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

2797:? So is the city different then the area? If so, then this probably needs to be split along with the rename. 2536:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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