Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2009 August 14

2678:- This page certainly has me intrigued. (Intrigued enough that I added Owen Hart to it. I was shocked that he wasn't first person on the list, as he's the only person to actually die on the WWE clock.) I can see some good reasons why this list should exist, and some good reasons why it shouldn't. The most notable reason I can think of that it shouldn't is that I can't come up with a "point" of the page. If it is to point out people working for the WWE who died "at young age" (however that is defined) or people whose life in the business "contributed to their death" (very subjective...the only two that you could say for sure are Owen Hart and Joey Marella), you run into problems of subjectivity and hearsay. Either way, Gorilla Monsoon almost certainly does not belong on this list. He was an older gentlemen who lived a normal-length life who died of long-term medical complications unrelated to wrestling who happened to still be employed by the WWE when he died. So, while he was a WWE employee at the time of his death, it's in no way notable. So, let's say this is changed to "WWE Active Wrestlers Who Died", you leave out Joey Marella, who is one of only two people off the top of my head where it is definite that the cause of his death is related to the wrestling business. If you change it to "Active WWE Employees Who Died Of Something Other Than Natural Causes", you immediately go down a slippery slope of what are natural causes and what are not. In short, I really don't think there's a way to make this page actually 1856:-- categories are primarily a navigation tool. They are most useful when the category contains a relatively limited number of subjects. If we allow 21st century people, we will have to have 20th century people, but that will be too heavily populated to be useful. We might have both as parent categories, but they would need to be split into manageably small groups; but how? We cannot do it by decade, becasue those notable in the 1960s are likely also to be notable in 1970s. We might do it by occupation (and often do). My preference would be to allow it as a parent category, but to forbid direct contents. 3410:. As discussed before, this particular category is vaguely-defined and non-defining, has inclusion standards that are completely and entirely subjective, is not based on any source using the term for categorization purposes, does not have sources in the articles showing that each episode is "LGBT-related" and the episodes are unrelated and have no cohesive connection whatsoever to each other. The term "LGBT-related television episode" suffers from a fundamental defect - it is not capable of any objective definition. As such the category constitutes a subjective criterion, a clear violation of 3574:- There is no discernible means to determine which episodes are in and which are out (pun originally was unintended). Thus the dreaded slippery slope argument, "but what will prevent someone from adding a possible borderline case" has no validity. There is no standard here whatsoever -- amount of LGBT-related content, number of words spoken by LGBT-related characters, use of LGBT-related keywords, etc. -- objective or subjective, that could possibly tell us which should be included and which should not. 2476:. The nominated category is very similar to this, though the "premature" is changed to "active WWE employees". Both of these categories seem to be trying to categorize the same thing—pro wrestlers who died "young" in usually controversial circumstances. Categories very similar to the nominated one have been discussed and deleted a number of times in the past, though often the categories were straight up "wrestlers who are dead"-type categories; this one is a little different: 3445:- this is Alansohn's pet "go-to" category. When someone suggests that a category is vague or ill-defined, Alansohn references this category. Alansohn clearly has no good-faith belief that this category should be deleted and is obviously using this nomination in an attempt to further his own personal agenda regarding the CFD process in general and the fad categories specifically. Given that this nomination is a clear-cut violation of 3584:- Categories should co-exist with lists as a default and one should not be deleted simply because the other exists and deletion of one will result in "no net loss of data". As noted previously by the nominator of the current CfD, "The category can be linked as easily as the list can be, so that's no argument in favor of deletion. No one appears to be suggesting that the category is superior to the list, rather, per 3878:

for several other New Zealand regions which would optherwise need disambiguation (e.g., the aforementioned Gisborne Region). It's also worth noting that you had no complaints about the similar recent renaming of categories relating to Northland, New Zealand to Northland Region, despite the fact that it also had a plain name linked to disambiguation pages.

3669:, and we are discussing a category using the same model you used to discuss the issue previously, your bleating nonsense about making a "disruptive bad-faith nomination" amounts to nothing. Please reread your nomination of the previous CfD for this category before making further attacks. Do your own rules apply to you or do they only apply when you like? 3606:- As discussed at the previous CfD should be used in all cases, keeping all categories that meet the three criteria A) is it possible to write a few paragraphs or more on the topic of the category? B) is it obvious why any given article would be in the category? C) does the category fit into the overall categorization system? 2700:

category for the same reason as Monsoon. The "active employees" certainly cuts down on a large number of premature deaths by restricting them to only those under the employ of the company at the time -- therefore people such as Davey Boy Smith, Chris Candito, Rodney Anoa'i, Michael Lockwood and so on would

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While I would not necessarily add a conclusion on the question whether to keep or delete this category, I do tend to think this is a category "usefull for collaboration", so to say. It may be used to send a message like "Hey. We noticed you haven't edited on Knowledge (XXG) for a while. Are you still

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already exists at a name standardised for New Zealand regions. As to "who's to know that?", all but two of the listed Marlboroughs are towns or townships, and the other one of those is a defunct micronation - as such calling them "regions" seems highly unlikely. The same naming scheme already exists

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I'll agree that Gorilla Monsoon is a bit borderline -- he was of (somewhat) advanced aged when he died, although he was one of the people who had "guaranteed lifetime employment" under Vincent K. McMahon. I'll remove it, as I realized that "Classy" Freddie Blassie would probably also fall under this

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PS - as far as not updating the dab page, some of us have limited time on Knowledge (XXG), and it made more sense to concentrate my energies first on changing the links to templates which affect large numbers of pages than articles which would still be effectively linked by redirects. It is changed

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There is no other Marlborough Region in the world, and the page was moved after discussion at WP:WPNZ about standardising the names of New Zealand's regions, all of which are similarly unique. As such, further disambiguation is unnecessary. Changing Gisborne to Gisborne, New Zealand is because it's

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Yes, it is clearly equivalent. I don't think we have in general categories for 'celebrities who died taking up the media spotlight for weeks on end'. (There was a fish, Benson, previously active, in England which died last week, and a koala bear in Australia, both events commanding national media

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I went specific with it and others forseeing amazingly long lists - there were in the 20th-century at least 1400 male ice hockey defencemen who can meet WP:Notability (for which there already are articles) and were, it is safe to say, hundreds more (ones for players in Europe). Then again, as has

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Most (if not all, I haven't checked every single one) already ARE in at least 2 categories (the most common are "Category:19XX births" and one specifying their nationality like "Category:American professional wrestlers"). There is no need to categorize people by century, that is just an excuse to

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be included in this category. However, this category, as I mentioned earlier, outlines a number of deaths that generally had a profound impact on the company and its subsequent programming, along with garnering it (mostly very negative) manistream media attention (e.g. Eddie Guerrero, Owen Hart,

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but that category is specifically for people who died in the course of an actual match. I did not check every article currently in this category, but a more-or-less random sampling of about 20% indicates that this category is not so restricted. If there are ball players who died in the course of

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Not really sure the point of this very specific category. Is it for any American who has lived since January 1, 2001? There is already a topic for American people and categories for people by professional and other specific ones that make this superfluous. I suggest all of the categories in

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not at all the same, as shown by the WP articles involved. Electricity is about power we get from the wall when we plug something in to a outlet, coming from a power generator somewhere; electronics is about what vacuum tubes and semi-conductors do inside radios, TVs, computers, etc.

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I noticed a similar category for Baseball players -- "Deaths among active Major League Baseball Players". Many of the deaths among current WWF/WWE employees (e.g. Owen Hart, Chris Benoit) created a firestorm of controversy for the company and garnered them mainstream media attention.

3418:'s admonition that we are not allowed to "create categories based on incidental or subjective features". I have supported the category and previously defended it vigorously at CFD. While the category has been nominated twice and kept with resounding, near-unanimous consensus -- on 3426:-- I am bringing it back to CFD to see if consensus about it has changed regarding the issue of subjectivity and to see if there is some principle and guideline that differentiates the subjective categories we keep and the ones we delete that can be used as a standard. Discuss... 3533:– not only because this meets all of my standards for retention, but for the staggering number of precedents that it sets, all the more so because of the clear consensus it set previously, and the nature of the category and comments used to support its retention. 3594:- again, as stated at the original CfD "the first guideline for category usage is that the category groups similar articles together". The oft-repeated argument that there must be some inherent connection between each of the articles in a category is eliminated. 3848:

for why. Maybe none of these have an official "region", but who's to know that? It seems perverse to be adding "New Zealand" to Gisborne (yesterday), & removing it here. Otherwise, ok, let the project decide. The main article has just been moved to

1839:. It is less defining for recent centuries, true, because so many of our bios are of people from the last two centuries, but I am in favour of having these if we are going to have ones for the 19th century and prior, so as to have complete schema 2202:

limited to those who died during a game or as a result of injuries sustained in a game. I think dying while employed and type of employment is a trivial intersection, per my nomination below for WWE employees who died while being employed.

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I have been processing one category that has settlement names. Boy, what an education. You could not figure out what the country was from the article text in some cases. It makes you appreciate having the country name in the page name.

2563:. I also recall that death of a Colombian footballer who was shot on his return to Colombia having scored an own-goal in the World Cup against the US: difficult to argue that this was not a defining moment in his career. But then we have 1955:

and should have them. 21st century American people are not to be denigrated, even if the century is only starting (well, 9 plus years ago starting, at least). Categories are used for navigation and these categories serve that purpose.

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by the nom (without updating the disam page btw). I'm actually less bothered by that, as there is a big NZ map at the top etc, but the category needs to keep the NZ, & if consistency requires adding one to the article, so be it.

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Never mind, this is something that should be discussed somewhere else. I don't know why Knowledge (XXG) has image categories if we already have Commons, which can barely handle categorization itself. But this isn't a small issue so

3262:. They are two separate topics - the first is about collecting information, the second about the processing/anaysis/use of that information. However, the only article in the first is about aanysis which belongs in the second. 1214:

per Hmains. The category contains both Arab-language media from eg London, and English-language media from eg Saudi, which seems a valid combination to me (most articles are of course about arabic media in arab countries).

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Looking at other related categories, this is the only one to use "world" in the title, and I don't see that it serves any purpose other than to confuse the reader that this category might be limited to "global" media only.

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who suffered an on-field heart attack. Otherwise I believe all the other players listed died outside of baseball activities. (No !vote from me, I'm fairly ambivalent about whether this is a trivial intersection or not.)

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using a CFD nomination for a category for which you have no good-faith belief in deletion to try to establish the above as guidelines, why not withdraw this disruptive bad-faith nomination and open a discussion at

453:- per ip contrib and also for food products images included in English WP under U.S. "Fair Use" doctrine, which doesn't apply to Commons images. The category just needs to be populated. (Yet another project...) 4032:. People form neighbouring villages may think they come from the Marlborough region (as they do), though they do not come from Marlborough Region. This distinction is too fine and will cause confusion. 4534: 3539:- There is no definition whatsoever of what "LGBT-related" means, nor is there any way to determine if any episodes "substantially cover such issues". As stated in the Keep vote from the earlier CfD by 1453:. Not science fiction, which is what the bulk of books about extra terrestrials are. Right now, they need to read the description to find out -- and not everyone does, especially when using HotCat. 3608:

Rather than arbitrary personal preferences, we can finally implement a set of guidelines that will end most of the drama here at CfD. I again suggest that these guidelines should be recorded at

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You should be sanctioned for your willful intention to disrupt the CFD process to make a point in furtherance of your personal crusade, to which "you only add more evidence with your response".

3765:. Whatever the semantic distinctions between 'Marlborough' and 'Marlborough Region', consensus seems to be clear that limiting the potential for confusion should be the paramount factor. -- 3423: 2485: 4258: 4186: 2497: 42: 37: 3658: 3464: 3419: 390:

Again, a redundant category that listed images only from Commons (5 imgs at the time). Those files are now under CSD F8 and we do not need Commons-image categories on Knowledge (XXG).

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want them to? It's the utter lack of guiding principles as to what makes a category defining that creates the problems at CfD, and you only add more evidence with your response.

2489: 4427: 2493: 3547:'s argument that this category is an "example par excellence when trying to keep other valuable categories with or without subjective and/or convoluted inclusion criteria" 2130:

between "active MLB player" and "dead"; dead players are inactive. The current name implies it contains articles about the deaths, rather than articles about the players.

2472:, which is for "people who died during or as a result of a professional wrestling match". This name was selected for the category in a CfD, which was originally named 2445: 4419: 3564:

stated at the previous CfD "Keep - as you know one when you see one, & certainly of encyclopedic interest. On the wild frontier of subjective criteria though" (

3082:. This category appears intended for books devoted to study of specific religions (as opposed to faith in general). They do need their own category, as the broader 1588:- How many non-fiction books about extraterrestrial life are there? How do we know this is not an over-small category? If this is a good category, then creating a 3371: 3344: 4556:. I thought the oppsosite to Vegadark, that this title means established users who have gone AWOL, not new users. Delete as unclear either way, and not useful. 4410: 2437: 1672:, it is clear that this scheme of categorisation has deep roots. I'd suggest wider discussion on this topic rather than sporadic, piecemeal nomination. -- 470:

Like I said, fair use images aren't supposed to be categorized (and no need as people won't find them useful) but again, maybe this belongs somewhere else.

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also not defining? How long do we wait until does become defining? Why does it becomes defining then? Should all these categories be recreated then?

4267: 4195: 3362: 3117:. This will leave the category with also political science and cultural studies, but these are disparate subject and do not form a useful category. 3795: 2046: 603:

Only one image left, which is now moved to Commons and soon will be deleted. Commons has its own categories for images so we don't need one for WP.

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for a significant amount of time. If your interpretation of the category is correct, then it could probably be speedy deleted as recreation, see

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so that we can short circuit so many of the pushes for deletion of categories that almost always ignore or directly contradict these guidelines.

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they complement each other. There are several hundred episodes on that list, most of which would not be notable enough for individual articles."

2560: 2037: 3228: 3197: 2723: 2469: 2078: 3666: 17: 4071:) - they've been doing so for some time without any apparent confusion from editors or readers, I hasten to add - so it will mean more work. 3665:, using this category as a model of one that fails the supposed hard-and-fast "rule" but has been retained overwhelmingly before. If this is 2839: 2148: 1952: 1948: 1772: 1693: 1668:. Some persuasive points made against, but this raises wider questions than the simple disposal of one category. Per the cited example of 1438: 4067:

That would be a reasonable compromise, though all articles and other categories relating to the area simply use Marlborough Region] (e.g.,

2542:- redundant to the pro wrestling deaths category, and community consensus is clearly against additional categorization of dead wrestlers. 1827:(and not just merely alive in this century). (I ve just now put a note on the page stating this.) It fits into a larger scheme for both 1828: 627: 414: 242: 171: 2743:

as a trivial intersection.Their career and being dead are both worth categorising, but no need to make a small intersection category.

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or similar and prune, Danish or otherwise. If the cause of death is unrelated to the sport then there is no case for categorisation.

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an image into the category or not. Or are you saying you are not allowed to categorize files? Since this is definitely not the case.

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The are all known to their locals simply as Marlborough, as is the one in New Zealand. If anything, the English one needs renaming.

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defining for the 21st century. Furthermore, all articles should be placed in at least two categories, hence I have placed people in

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and serves no purpose other than to disrupt the CFD process, this nomination should be closed and Alansohn should be sanctioned.

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These two underpopulated categories, I should think. Based on the sparse content, they appear to me to be about the same thing.

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to the by country parents and delete this category. If kept, it should only contain the by country categories and no articles.

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and per recent similar changes to categories relating to the Northland Region. Other categories already use the proposed form.

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We should determine what this is intended to be. If it is just about Arab nedia, then I agree with the nominator to rename to

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around?", and informs other editors of the fact that such an editor might not be available for comment in discussions, etc.

3543:, all that is necessary is to "put in inclusion criteria on the template page", regardless of inherent subjectivity or in 2933:

as a cat that encompases both the cats concerned. Population of the cats may be slow so there is a reason to keep them. --

2178: 2106: 2083: 2077:- appears to be a trivial intersection between "active MLB player" and "dead". This category has been cited as similar to 461: 440: 199: 3058: 170:

there are probably fruit images on Knowledge (XXG) that don't qualify for Commons, such as ones in corporate logos, etc.

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Another example of two sparsely populated categories that appear -- to me, a layman -- to be addressing the same topic.

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4497: 1490:, which as I understand it (I've only glanced at it), means that I'm right, and you'll retract and apologize. 575: 110: 2683: 953: 922: 353: 4313: 4037: 3555: 3122: 3062: 2955: 2938: 2891: 2348: 1861: 1325: 1309: 1278: 822: 631: 418: 413:

there are almost certainly food images that don't qualify for commons, like screenshots from cooking shows.

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is imminent. Perhaps the community should take a stance on the subcats of 'Deceased aquatic resources'.)

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which of course makes any here pale in comparison, and leaving it at full length seems to fine by most

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Sources are not needed to support a category, but existence of sources confirms retention of a category

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I gather your point is that "by nationality" is a good way to break-up each century of people. Yes.

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to give users an easy way to know, right off the bat, that this category is for non-fiction books

4542: 4505: 4484: 4309: 4305: 4284: 4243: 4077: 4049:– it is entirely clear with NZ in the name and less clear without NZ. Why not just add 'Region'? 4033: 4006: 3998: 3984: 3941: 3921: 3902: 3884: 3850: 3804: 3674: 3644: 3617: 3498: 3476: 3454: 3431: 3118: 2951: 2934: 2638: 2590: 2547: 2344: 2091: 1857: 1790: 1743: 1576: 1525: 1477: 818: 803: 783: 775: 3631: 3446: 3079: 1472:- "books" means non-fiction books in WP categories. Fiction books are categorized as "novels". 968:, has but one entry. The parent is sparsely categorized and there is no need for this subcat. 3963: 3859: 3700: 3521: 3352: 3139: 2331: 1352: 1220: 664: 610: 483: 459: 436: 397: 267: 223: 195: 154: 2139:

I believe the only players who have actually died due to injuries suffered during a game are

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Have we other categories for XXX images? It does seem that Commons fills that role. -

4110:. The New Zealand is needed to dismbiguate (and the UK one should be renamed to match) 4538: 4501: 4480: 4280: 4238: 4072: 4002: 3979: 3978:

may refer to the place in England, but, as you yourself put it "who's to know that?"

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The category is already decently populated. I wouldn't think that OC SMALL applies.

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Well, no, I don't believe you're right and I shan't retract nor apologize. We have

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as a trivial intersection between death and place of emplyment. We already have

2652: 2613: 2568: 2559:– this actually has objective criteria, unlike 'premature'. And there is indeed 2177:

as a trivial intersection between death and place of emplyment. We could make a

2161: 2144: 2110: 1957: 1893: 1178: 1154: 1126: 839: 4391: 4206: 3767: 3207: 3033: 2815: 2409: 2271: 2140: 2023: 1674: 1413: 1288: 1146: 1114: 1060: 928: 734: 547: 334: 91: 2149:

List of sports people who have died during their career#Major League Baseball

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Hmm, I was interpreting this category to mean Wikipedians who have not been

4029: 3929: 3467:, using the exact language I paraphrased above, or do rules only apply when 2082:

playing actual games then I have no objection to a rename to something like

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