Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2009 April 25

4061:. The main keep logic seems to be that the category offers a way to determine which articles have not been identified for a particular sub category or that we need a category with all arch bridges. The introduction states 'This category directly includes all articles on arch bridges, regardless of their placement in any other sub-category of Category:Arch bridges', not quite the same as the first reason for keeping. I think a case could be made for the first point and a category could be created as a hidden, maintenance category with a name like 3816:. Both arguments cannot be correct. This is my point when I say that the distinguishment theory is not understood in practice, not used in practice (other than a few simple examples that are always trotted out) and most certainly not documented in practice (every category should clearly state what articles it should or should not directly contain) so few editors know what categories should be used for what articles. Look at practice, not theory. The current practice is a chaos. 3676:. That this is a category that encompasses all arch bridges is clearly understood. I disagree that the distinguishment theory is either "obscure" or "virtually unused" as a cursory wander through many different category structures demonstrates that categories are regularly diffused down to appropriate subcategories as the need arises without employing a separate "(all)" category and the articles do not (or at least should not) remain in the parent category. 2128:

number of sub-categories down to 2. Second: From a BLP standpoint, I am only using people already in the current 20+ categories; in the process, I am trying to check the sources, adding them where I haven't found any and deleting people form the category where I cannot. If you are suggesting the adoptee label implies a stigma that needs to be considered in BLP, please be careful as this is certainly a POV and potential an objectionable one at that.

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3611:(using the virtually unused and certainly obscure 'distinguished' theory) creates a different problem. Each editor/user cannot then determine which articles have not been placed in the subcats and thus which articles remain which, perhaps, should be placed in the existing subcats or new ones that may need to be defined. An 'ALL' category thus solves multiple problems without taking away anything that editors/users want from the WP category system 4878:-- In several countries "Green" refers to a politcal party, but members of mainstream political parties may take a view on enviromental issues. However we do not have Home Affairs politicians or Health politicians. Furthermore, a good politician will have views on many subjects, meaning that this will not be a category with sharp boundaries, making it close to a POV category. 2502:- The entire "drug lord" category set should be upmerged to the corresponding traffickers category as there is no objective definition as to what distinguishes a drug "trafficker" from a drug "lord" (or a drug "kingpin" or a "major player in the drug trade" or any of the other words and phrases that are used in the popular press). "Drug lord" is overly sensationalistic. 2148:

you don't tend to toss categories onto articles haphazardly, and I have not implied such a thing, but it is done daily on thousands of articles by thousands of editors. That is why I have brought this issue to this page, since you contested the speedy delete on one of the two categories I nominated here. As was noted on one of the talk pages, it can't be easily fixed.

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3982:. Far too many useful categories are getting diffused into their subcategories. Creating these "all" categories would be a good way to deal with this problem. If not, we should have more category duplication. Some people are just looking for bridge types, some are looking for subtypes. Both sets of users should be accomodated. -- 931:- overcategorization by trivial intersection, also part of the mania to categorize every possible aspect of race/ethnicity/religion. There are likely a significant number of people from any number of professions who have left them to pursue a life of spiritual fulfillment. I see no need to categorize those people either. 874:-- Porn is generally considered to be contrary to Christian values, since it is designed to encourage immorality (or is that POV?). It therefore follows that committed Christians are unlikely to be Porn actors. Appearance in this category will thus require an act of repentance. This would need to be based on an explicit 2127:

I agree that the criteria for speedy deletion, notably the incorrect capitalization is warranted. Nevertheless, your opinions concerning BLP and over-categorization are misplaced. First: the Adoptee category is currently over-categorized with 20+ categories based around nationality; I am taking the

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concerns are not in relationship to anything beyond whether or not an article supports the inclusion of the category based on very reliable sources and how validly one might overcategorize someone into related vs. non-related adoptions. I believe that takes it a step too far in categorizing. Perhaps

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I am not implying anything. The categories are not properly named, and there is no issue with categories based around nationality. The Adoptee category is perfectly fine as a main category with as many sub-categories as are necessary to populate it. I do not take kindly to what you are suggesting is

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the template (Template:GFDL-presumed). Although not used on any image pages any more, there are still hundreds of talk pages that reference this template. For understanding the history we need to keep something on the template to explain what it meant and why not to use it. I would suggest however

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there were license tags. (Sources weren't required either -- ah, such an innocent time!) I was part of the team that went through all of these old images, asking the uploaders for details and applying the first tags. When the uploader was missing, but we thought the image was self-created, we tagged

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awards ceremony. It ran for only three years, and seems to have been cancelled permanently, so there is no scope for expansion. It isn't a particularly important award, despite its name there is no physical "hall of fame" associated with it (just a TV show), and the whole thing has been pretty much

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Let me tell you a little story. I created this template and category way back in 2005; that's forty years ago in internet-time. Back then, there was a notice on the upload page that stated that by uploading an image you created, you agreed to license it under the GFDL. Many user-created images were

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includes not only articles in the subcats but also articles not in the subcats. This ALL category is designed to meet the problem that there is no category that includes 'all' of the articles of a subject. Without an 'all' category, each editor/user must wade through multiple subcats to gather

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Woh, uploading an image to Knowledge (XXG) does not automatically make it GFDL. We have a few choices for licenses when it comes to images. If someone does not give a license we ask them for one and if we don't get it we delete the image, we don't assume that the user picked on of the several

4929:. This is at best a categorisation of politicians by opinion, and as such it is so subjective that it's useless, just as the similar categories we deleted in the past for liberal and conservative politicians. At worse, this is a nonsense category, per Carlossuarez46. -- 4272:

for a list of redirects that might uncover merges. The reason for the original creation was to split these articles off from the other ones in the parent categories, as these stood out like a sore thumb and were clearly different to other "children and death" articles.

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The point of having subcategories to to provent the main one becoming overloaded. Arch bridges are a common variety, so that the population of it is potentially enormous. It needs to be split, and so this category is the very reverse of a good category system.

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would pass muster. Of course, I don't even know of any Barack Obama impersonators who actually pass muster as impersonators... So it's possible that my views have been influenced by that fact. :) All the same, I think this one is a good candidate for adding to

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seem to not draw many participants lately. Not sure why. The discussion you raised is one that does not have an easy answer so maybe that explains the lack of participation. Maybe another post in that discussion to ask why there is no participation?

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Also keep in mind that any visit to the deleted template will show a link to this discussion (for those concerned about history), and even disallowing the tag didn't stop new uploaders from using it. For this, and other reasons, I would heavily support

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is so concerned about these categories then why were the categories not being maintained in the way you describe before I came to find these categories in the poor condition they are still in. In any case, project pages do not control our editing.

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and upmerge the lone article as needed. There's nothing wrong with this category in principle, but it's not really needed for a single article. I don't expect any additional articles to be written -- and I certainly hope there won't be reason to.

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Improperly named category. This could be a very problematic category even if properly named without the potential for violating WP:BLP and for the availability of reliable sourcing. I think this might venture into over-categorization as well.

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Including this one there are 18 drug lord by nationality categories, most of which have one or two entries at most. Total in the tree is around 100 articles. This is a categorization scheme but it isn't particularly wide-spread (compare to

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Again, this is based on a theory of how articles 'should be' categorized, ignoring how editors, in the main, actually do categorize them. No one was doing this 'should be' thing with these bridges before I looked and no one still is.

5096:. Nigerian political boundaries didn't exist in the Mesozoic, and the WikiProject's long-standing consensus has been to base categories on time, taxonomic position, and continent (or landmass). There was an earlier CFD discussion on 4087:, but that got nowhere so far. Where would be the best forum for a discussion of interested parties who might want to help with ideas and solutions? Just keeping the existing situation is no solution--it solves nothing. 4007:

based on Hmains's assertion that deletion of the category would leave some bridges uncategorized. Manual recategorization will then be in order, to deal with article needlessly categorized at different levels of detail.

3585:). ("On the other hand, pages are not excluded from Category:Bridges in New York City on the grounds that they also belong to Category:Toll bridges in New York City, since the latter is a distinguished subcategory.") 514:

Why should these pages all representative of a single deprecated license/policy have separate discussions? What is the benefit of that? Further, what would be the benefit of moving the discussions at this point? ▫

1998:. If there's interest in which notable people were adopted, that would make a suitable subject for a list. A category is not appropriate because adoption is not a defining characteristic for most adoptees. -- 550:

anyway, mainly because transcluding things is fun, and I'll use any excuse to type the word transclude. If anyone wants to transclude it at CfD, feel free to transclude it, but that seems a bit overkill. ▫

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Note: Since this was transcluded at CFD for seven days and there was consensus to delete at least the categories, I have done so. I'll leave someone who is well-versed at MFD's to close this discussion.

5069:, which was a distinct landmass for much of the Cretaceous). As there would only be a handful of articles this category would apply to if fully populated (on the order of ten), it is better served by its 895:

murder is contrary to a basic tenet in Christianity, but that doesn't stop many Christians to pursue murderous intents, or even as one Christian duke put it "kill them all and let God sort them out"

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to figure out what to do with them. It's been a lot of work, but we've finally cleared this one out. It's had a good run, but it's time for it to go to that great wiki in the sky. Bye old friend. –

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interesting, especially if they weren't Christians before getting into the porn industry, but there is no evidence that this is defining. Reliable sources to support the claim could sway my vote.

1650:. This discussion will help establish the naming conventions for Knowledge (XXG) book categories, so let's give this some serious thought. I think I've got the whole hierarchy tagged now. -- 107: 429:

It could be there, but on WP these templates are representative of a policy, and what with the categories, I put it here. Also, TfD isn't transcludable, in case anyone wants to do that. ▫

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Improperly named category, nominated for speedy deletion and contested by creator. This could be a very problematic category even if properly named without the potential for violating

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I actually never said that and it is not true. Deleting the 'all' category would leave the categories with exactly the same articles that existed before I added the 'all category'

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I'm not even sure where to begin with this category. We don't have any type of categories of "people who look like other people". This category serves no encyclopedic value and is

329:- and great work to those that did the work to resolve the images - I had done some work on the category a while back -- leaving message on talk pages of users and also projects.-- 547: 1049:

it can be shown to be a subject of serious study and suitably referenced, but Otto4711 is right the category system cannot accommodate every combination of human attributes. --

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be part of a wp wide category tree format on the basis of one entry - I dont necessarily even endorse the existence of category - I had simply tagged it for the WPNZ project

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The deletionists are using their separate mis-understanding of the category system to say this 'all' category should be deleted. One says delete the 'all' cat because the

3050:, but the bot didn't get around to deleting the category until shortly after this new nomination had begun. It looks like this discussion serves to confirm the result there. 3625:

I'm confused. Are you saying that this category is needed to contain all of the arch bridges because otherwise editors don't know that they are included in a subcategory?

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Again, you should look at many actual factual examples of how WP categories are used instead of theory in MOS that is not actually implemented except as prepared samples.

4065:. The second issue is a much larger one and should be discussed as it effects all other categories. If this is changed here, then are we also accepting a category like 999: 537:

I agree with the Ninja. The templates are useless without the categories, and vice versa. They should all be discussed together, and this is the best venue for that. –

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has had a long-standing policy of only using continental landmasses for categories, instead of political entities that did not exist during the Mesozoic (note that

4599: 4895:- excessively vague and ambiguous. As Peterkingiron says, most politicians have views on environmental topics - what makes one an 'environmental politician'? 250:

As Chillum said, this template pretty much goes against our current practices. At this point everything listed above is phased out and is no longer needed.

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page about creating this category. This category goes against what has been accepted for categorization on the project page. To quote the project page,

3370:. Only one entry in category and no corresponding article. As usual, anybody who can save category is fine by me. Also nominated for the same reasons :- 21: 1038: 783: 3902:

should be the main populated category of this subject and there should be duplication in a sub-category when a particular subtype can be verified. -

2558: 3672:- unnecessary duplicate category. Arch bridges that are not either deck arch bridges or through arch bridges, the current subcategories, may go in 1366: 1362: 1769: 1526: 1522: 1176: 1172: 1166: 1162: 775: 1536: 1532: 1516: 1512: 806:. This category violates the Neutral Point of View policy. It makes the explicit judgment that a pornographic actor cannot be a Christian. I've 124: 1282: 5131:-- This is a very rationale consensus. We commonly seem to get discussion of species by country category trees, and most will not work well. 2562: 1416: 1412: 1396: 1392: 1256: 1252: 1034: 17: 4941: 4376: 1678: 1576: 1572: 1446: 1442: 1286: 1061: 1016: 766: 3744:(also redundant). I made no mention of "prepared samples" and have no idea what such a sample would consist of in terms of this discussion. 1586: 1582: 1476: 1472: 1226: 1222: 3388: 1781: 1596: 1592: 1496: 1492: 1466: 1462: 1346: 1342: 1316: 1312: 1306: 1296: 1292: 1186: 1182: 1566: 1562: 1546: 1486: 1482: 1356: 1352: 490:; this isn't really the appropriate venue. If consensus is already to remove them as deprecated, then they will face the same fate there. 3101:. Only one entry in category and no corresponding article. NB There are several George Campbell's at WP. None appear to be a songwriter. 1613: 1556: 1552: 1506: 1502: 1436: 1432: 1406: 1402: 1376: 1302: 1246: 1242: 1196: 1192: 1674: 1456: 1452: 1426: 1422: 1372: 1326: 1322: 1276: 1272: 896: 1336: 1332: 1266: 1262: 1236: 1232: 2768: 1682: 1542: 1386: 1382: 1216: 1212: 1030: 4522: 3393: 3339: 2738: 4530: 3347: 3203: 2699: 3383: 3211: 2893: 2707: 1670: 1617: 829:

per above - no reason why a porn actor can't be Christian. This is also an intersection of two unrelated categories. We don't have

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would always hold everything for those editors and others who need to see 'all' the arch bridges while the articles in subcats of

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apparently, though I'm not sure what it's been renamed to). In any case, I think this discussion is now moot and can be closed.

2081: 830: 3898:. So when a reference says it is an arch bridge, but does not define it as a particular subtype, where does it go? That is why 3373: 3194: 2743: 2690: 4649:. Unencyclopaedic. sets a wrong precedent. should we then have one for people who like George W Bush or the Queen of England? 4062: 3413: 3408: 3398: 2884: 2763: 2753: 2733: 2089: 1995: 1882: 1646:

and its other subcats. Also bringing capitalization in line with Knowledge (XXG) style. Also standardize the preposition to

1606: 1150: 1146: 854: 4824: 2258: 1121:. While there was consensus to rename, there wasn't an agreed upon target name, and since these are tied to the widely used 914:-- There is a significant number of Adult film stars that have left the Adult Film Industry to pursue a life of Christianity. 466: 420: 3378: 3070: 2758: 1785: 2072: 1890: 4832: 2410: 1602: 506: 4594: 4194: 1970: 1873: 1859: 5093: 4815: 3078: 2930: 5173: 4986: 4962: 4790: 4766: 4482: 4458: 4159: 4135: 3729: 3485: 3461: 3306: 3282: 3169: 3145: 3061: 3033: 3009: 2855: 2831: 2665: 2641: 2368: 2344: 2224: 2200: 2047: 2023: 1845: 1821: 1738: 1714: 1106: 1082: 741: 717: 69: 5026: 3519: 2418: 1858:

Administrative close: speedily deleted by another editor per creator's request. Interested users may want to nominate

134: 3851:. This category should be deleted unless a different categorization is proposed and accepted on the project pages. - 2401: 373:

Delete the template. It is a good idea that this template becomes a redlink. Do not delete the template talk page (

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No need to hang on to it. Merely making a basic copy through "subst" for historical purposes would be sufficient.

5017: 4937: 4372: 4364:, but it makes no sense to apply that argument for the deletion of this sub-category while keeping its parent. -- 3891: 3640: 3603: 3510: 2249: 1057: 1012: 640: 374: 5172:

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