1231:(in the modern sense) is someone who pursues some activity, but not professionally. A child practicing arithmetic cannot be called an amateur mathematician unless she is pursuing it voluntarily. A grocery store cashier cannot be called an amateur mathematician unless he pursues mathematics outside the scope of his job. Vi Hart, on the other hand, has been paid by Khan in part for her expertise in mathematics (do you think she would be able to make those videos if she were clueless about math?) and so she is (or has been) a professional mathematician. It might be appropriate to distinguish her from research mathematicians, since she doesn't seem to have done much research in the past and does not seem to be currently engaged in it. But "mathematician" does not mean "research mathematician" (no matter what some of my colleagues think).
1508:, not all people who have added a few numbers get to be called mathematicians. The existing recreational category should be used for Vi Hart as she's described by a number of reliable sources in that way, or sometimes they cite her self-description and don't bother to quibble with it (meaning they more or less agree). Vi Hart certainly is a professional, for one having published cited papers, but two even ignoring khan academy her YouTube videos have garnered millions of views which translates into significant ad revenue for her - she is exploring mathematics and educating the next generation and being paid for it so it's silly to try to exclude her as a mathematician, I sense a distinct tinge of jealousy in all this.--
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amateur? I doubt we could get agreement on that. We usually think of L'Hopital as an amateur, but he got paid royalties for his
Calculus book, so would that make him a professional? Most of George Boole's important research work was done as an amateur, but he was then appointed to a professor of mathematics at Queen's College, Cork (Ireland), and published more, so was he an amateur or a professional? And look at the fight here as to whether working at Khan Academy "counts". Creating such a category would do little to help inform readers, and would lead to too many edit wars.
1595:-- Maths is an unusual discipline, in that in the past those pursuing other professions were able to make significant contributions to the subject. I would want to exclude actuaries, statisticians and mathematics teachers from the cateogry, because they are in mathematical professions. I believe it is known for Ph.D.s in Mathematics to be awarded on the basis of a dissertion of a few pages, rather than the typcial 40,000 words in sciences and 80,000 in the arts.
1359:. It's often easy to determine whether someone is *not* an amateur (i.e. they have done something that would almost certainly have caused them to be paid for their mathematical work, such as being a teacher of mathematics, a professional researcher, or an author of mathematics books). It is much harder to prove a negative: how do you show that someone has not been paid for their work? A case in point:
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amateur and pro is too fuzzy and should be left to a list, we have oodles of things that are appropriate for a list but completely not for a category. Mathematics is not a field with licensing requirements or under the oversight of professional bodies or government agencies, it's wonderful because anyone can do mathematics. However, in the same way that all actors who once waited tables are not
1447:. It is absolutely clear to me that an "amateur" can be an "expert" in their field. I'd also like to point out the temporal nature of the amateur status. Whatever the criteria are, an amateur one day could pass some threshold and lose that status the next day. It is only the lack of notability which keeps us from having to categorize all graduate math students as amateurs.
1363:(primarily a dentist) was until recently listed in this category. He was also for many years an editor for a mathematics journal. Some journal editors are paid for their work, others do it on a volunteer basis. How do we know whether he was a paid or unpaid editor? And how much pay would be needed to push him from the amateur to non-amateur class? For another example,
1391:, a famous composer of music. He was always a professional in just one field — insurance — and many other professionals in his field had no clue that he was at all musical. This category can embrace mathematicians comparable to Ives (Bankoff sounds rather comparable), as well as gentleman mathematicians such as l'Hopital.
925:. I agree with the nominator's statement and would add that, despite the apparent purpose of the new category being to hide Vi Hart somewhere away from the other mathematicians, it does not fit her. She is not an amateur as she has earned a living (paid by the Khan Academy among others) for her mathematical work. —
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paid for his work? Maybe his main job was scribe, and he did his math at night on sheets of papyrus. A list is a much better solution here, where we can source and detail the extent of their work and have some more specific criteria for inclusion (and even say "Yes, Joe was paid once for a paper, but
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any women find it difficult to be accepted by the mathematics community if they are not seen as professional. While the label "amateur" mathematician may have been an honorable one when women were not expected to do anything other than domestic work, it is no longer a label that would meet with such
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I am merely sorting out the categories so as to address your complaints. I do not nominate new content for deletion, nor do I ask other users to stop editing, simply because I am unhappy with the wording. No damage is being done; if anything, I am improving the articles so as to make the terminology
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we don't feel a need to create 'amateur' chefs or 'amateur' biologists, and I don't see a need to try to create a new subcategory here - if the reliable sources regularly describe the person as a mathematician they are in, no need to pass go no need to collect 200. As JPL states the border between
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not only does it violate last rung rule (and parent cat too small to be worth splitting by nationality) developmental biology specifically is a field that has had significant participation by women since the early days and much successful research, the only article I found on this subject outlined
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people like Martin
Gardner (who was what might be called a "professional recreational mathematician"). But an any rate, the lack of agreement among editors here certainly suggests that this material is best handled in list form, rather than category form, where the dubbing of a mathematician as
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be somewhat woolly, most cases should be clear-cut, and even those that aren't can be properly discussed and referenced on the corresponding articles. Failing this, the wording of the definition could be tightened or loosened as necessary to better reflect usage in reliable sources. Unless and
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gives a fairly clear description of what they mean by that term; we cannot. For example, if someone's career was in a field of math other than research mathematics (e.g. actuary, statistician, or community college teacher), but they proved an important theorem, would they be a professional or
951:. Mathematicians are by definition experts in their field, and NOT amateurs. Furthermore, Vi Hart is not professional mathematician. She is a professional entertainer (via YouTube) and arguably a professional educator (via Khan Academy) but absolutely NOT a professional mathematician.
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characteristic: "one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having". I'm not sure about the commonly as until today I did not know several of those mentioned were amateurs. Outside of sports and ham radio I've found only one equivalent category
1199:. Something that seems to be unclear to me from the above discussion is the exact meaning of "amateur". I would think this means someone who is not a professional: that is, someone who is not compensated monetarily for their mathematical work. Presumably this would
1124:. And leave as a subcategory of mathematicians. Amateur does not mean they are not mathematicians. They can be very good ones just that it isn't a major job they do. There are a lot of mathematicians and they need subcategorization, I think this is a good subcategory.
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did much of his academic work unpaid, but eventually became a professor: do we define an amateur to be someone who once did unpaid mathematics (in which case, does everyone who published research as an undergraduate qualify?) or someone who has never been paid as a
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Your proposed definition doesn't match how the term "amateur" is used in reliable sources. If you want to come up with your own definitions, that's fine, and there are several peer-reviewed journals that will publish your musings. But it's not appropriate here.
1694:). The "amateur" label does not appear to have been applied to mathematicians of antiquity, and the terms seems to have fallen out of use, at least in describing 20th C. mathematicians. If this category is kept, we can populated it easily enough using
1272:. It's quite easy to ascertain whether a specific mathematician is a professional (i.e. being compensated for mathematical work) or an amateur (i.e. not being compensated for mathematical work). Let's use this category for the mathematical variants of
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or otherwise disruptive behaviour is similarly irrelevant. Disruptive editing should be dealt with by warnings and discussions in the first instances, and topic bans, blocks, or other administrative remedies in the last. Again, nothing to do with
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Good point, but the problem can be resolved by changing my criteria. We can put people here who are (1) known for mathematical work, and (2) never engaged in mathematics as a career. For a good example (not mathematics, but similar), see
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what is the meaningful distinction between whether one is formally paid for one's mathematical doings? And how does one handle the ancients? Was
Pythagoras professional or amateur? What sources show whether or not he was remunerated?
472:: the correct form is either "enclaves in KY" (for pieces of other states surrounded by KY) or "exclaves of KY" (for pieces of KY surrounded by other states). No enclaves are located in Kentucky, and the only Kentucky exclave is the
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No reason for this limited to one article category, at least unless there are major boundary changes of
Kentucky. If that happens, we can reconsider the issue, but as long as Kentucky keeps its current boundaries we should just
1084:. Catagorizing an article does not receive the same level of scrutiny as a controversial claim in the article proper, and claiming "amateur" status for contemporary women mathematicians is likely to be controversial. From
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thinks they are improving articles. The trick is convincing other people that you're correct. I'd recommend you back off a bit from editing and spend a bit more time establishing support for the changes you want to make.
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as an appropriate aid to navigation for a defining characteristic. Those individuals who are defined as mathematicians who have done their work on a non-professional basis should be categorized on that basis, as we do for
1422:— on the grounds that an amateur mathematician is a particular class of mathematician, namely one who is not paid as such. I do not support the opinion that "amateur" means "non-expert", or that it is disjoint from
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so the the category is not "virtually empty." Morever, L'Hospital is not an amateur. His work is referenced by every math teacher, student, and researcher today. Everyone considers him an expert in his theorems.
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If we can source a claim for mathematical "amateur" status then (assuming notability and other guidelines are met) we have a perfectly good list article where that can be recorded. Let's leave it at that.
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Whether or not the term "amateur" is controversial, offensive, or dismissive is irrelevant. What matters is whether the mathematicians in question are commonly described as such in reliable sources.
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There is no useful distinction between professional and amateur mathematicians, and there is no encyclopedic benefit from opening arguments concerning an inconsequential category on multiple pages.
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Mathematics is a field where someone can be recognized for contributions in the field without being compensated for it. This is true in a a way that you wouldn't find in a field like
Architecture.
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This violates the rule against creating last-rung ERGS categories, because we have no full diffusion of this category. I also doubt we could create a referenced, non-list article on
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amateur can at least be attributed to some source other than the whims of editorial discretion. Presumably there are potential BLP issues involved in this categorization as well.
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can be properly placed in this category). The proper list/category placement of any one individual is a content dispute, not an argument for keeping or deleting an entire category.
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would rather change the definition of mathematician to "anyone who does math" so that first-graders, cashiers, homeowners, and anyone with a 401K can be considered mathematicians.
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She is currently engaged in "research", to the extent that this means publications in mathematics journals. She has solo publications in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, and 2013.
1698:. The difficulty will arise (as it has arisen here) when we want to classify mathematicians who worked outside of (roughly) 1400–1900. If the category was narrowed to
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In very few cases do we distinguish if someone is "professional" or "amateur". Only when the line is very firm and very clear do we do so. This is not the case here.
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acceptance. Such a designation would now have negative connotations, and would make it difficult, for example, to receive grants, awards, jobs, and recognition.
803:"John Bernoulli's bitterness increased when a French nobleman and amateur mathematician, the Marquis de L'Hospital (1661-1704) published under his own name..."
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all of the potential causes for this. I don't think this has been a subject of significant study and I don't see value in having a genderized category here.--
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A mathematician is a person with an extensive knowledge of mathematics who uses this knowledge in their work, typically to solve mathematical problems.
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is an amateur or expert mathematician. I want to develop criteria by which we can judge someone to be an expert. But nobody has addressed this so far.
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mathematician a defining characteristic of
Gardener? As mentioned above, what reliable source will be used to determine the primary vocation of
837:"As for science, we note that we need not go very far back in history to find successful amateurs, such as L'Hospital, Schliemann, or Galois."
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from other categories as well as adding them here. Undoing this damage will require more than simply automatically upmerging this category. —
761:"Guillaume François Antoine Marquis de L'Hospital, amateur mathematician, borth in 1661 in Paris, died February 2, 1704, in Paris, France."
539:-- because there is and will only ever be one article. I might have wanted to merge to a US category, but gather that this is unnecessary.
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was presumably paid for his columns and books and no benefit will arise from deciding whether that was his "primary vocation". Was being an
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has not been "established as academically or culturally significant by external sources", at least not separate from the broader topic of
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is preferable to using "of Foo". "Of" denotes formal belonging, which is inaccurate in this case, whereas the former indicate identity (
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I don't mean it to be pejorative. I agree with you that "amateur" means unpaid and non-expert. The root cause of this issue is whether
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a useful distinction between amateur and non-amateur mathematicians in the literature (e.g., "The
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Exactly. How much payment does one have to get for mathematics before one becomes a so-called professional? For example, was
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most of his important work was done while he was waiting tables"), but a category that is binary in/out doesn't work.--
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until these options have been explored I don't see that it's necessary to leap to deleting the entire category. —
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The issue of where to categorize Vi Hart and L'Hopital is irrelevant (unless it can be shown that neither they
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That there already exists a list on this topic is not a reason to delete this category. See our guideline
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I would support keeping the category but strictly on the understanding that it is a subcategory of
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PS The category's creator, Jay Gatsby, is now removing other prominent mathematicians such as
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Whether or not a term is seen as pejorative has very little to do with your intent.
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we are closer to potential category. One question is whether this can be called a
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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and could be regarded as field in its own right, perhaps more akin to our
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I think that, though the classification of mathematicians as "amateurs"
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160:. As noted above, this category fails virtually every threshold set by
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I am in the process of categorizing the appropriate articles from
790:. Vol. 47. National Council of Teachers of Mathematics. p. 435.
1141:. To address some of the objections others have raised so far:
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for all the reasons Obi-Wan Kenobi describes. The article on
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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Category:Great
Western Amateur Mathematicians (1400-1900)
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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primary vocation did not involve mathematics (or any
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Knowledge:Categories, lists, and navigation templates
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Category:Border irregularities of the United States
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323:(Category creator not notified because: inactive)
1702:, I think membership would be uncontroversial.
164:. Most importantly, in my opinion, the topic of
301:Either of the two primary conventions found in
1165:Whether the category's creator is engaging in
1203:people like L'Hopital (who was not paid) and
505:Category:Geography of Fulton County, Kentucky
8:
1443:. Basically I am in complete agreement with
497:small category, with no potential for growth
787:The Secondary School Mathematics Curriculum
718:. Potentially awkward as many of the great
700:Talk:Vi Hart#Vi Hart is NOT a mathematician
698:category created following a discussion at
714:, virtually empty. It also mirrors a list
1338:Category:Recreational mathematics experts
708:Category:Recreational mathematics experts
507:, and so there is no need to upmerge. --
756:L'Hospital is considered to be amateur.
106:Category:Women developmental biologists
60:Category:Women developmental biologists
1704:Category:Recent Amateur Mathematicians
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186:-- another unnecessary sexual split.
1706:would have nothing but controversy.
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1303:Arrrgghhhh.... I knew that once....
1646:? Compare the unclear criterion at
18:Knowledge:Categories for discussion
303:Category:Indian musicians by state
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831:The Mathematics of Great Amateurs
623:The result of the discussion was:
408:The result of the discussion was:
270:The result of the discussion was:
88:The result of the discussion was:
996:Well, yes, a few vandals aside,
825:Collidge, Julian Lowell (1949).
1648:Category:Amateur mathematicians
1284:, yes, let's put him in here.
808:Burton's history of mathematics
712:Category:Mathematics educators‎
653:Category:Amateur mathematicians
595:Category:Amateur mathematicians
1276:. Assuming your l'HĂ´pital is
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903:List of amateur mathematicians
899:List of amateur mathematicians
740:List of amateur mathematicians
716:List of amateur mathematicians
702:. Outside of the main tree at
121:women in developmental biology
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1666:which proclaims the obvious "
784:Hirsch, Christian R. (1985).
427:Category:Exclaves in Kentucky
380:Category:Exclaves in Kentucky
292:Category:Musicians from Assam
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1484:Category:Amateur astronomers
1330:Category:Amateur astronomers
943:It is inappropriate to have
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166:women in development biology
1486:and other such structures.
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706:overlaps several sub cats
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203:unnecessary split on sex.
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1506:Category:Restaurant staff
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805:Burton, David M. (1995).
763:Paultre, Patrick (2011).
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341:. The logic seems fine.
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110:Category:Women biologists
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1727:Please do not modify it.
1332:, it has a head article
811:. Wm. C. Brown. p. 430.
605:Please do not modify it.
577:Please do not modify it.
390:Please do not modify it.
362:Please do not modify it.
252:Please do not modify it.
224:Please do not modify it.
70:Please do not modify it.
1660:Category:Mathematicians
1424:Category:Mathematicians
1420:Category:Mathematicians
704:Category:Mathematicians
1278:Guillaume de l'HĂ´pital
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949:List of mathematicians
907:List of mathematicians
766:Dynamics of Structures
689:Nominator's rationale:
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1708:Lesser Cartographies
1305:Lesser Cartographies
1274:gentleman scientists
1107:Lesser Cartographies
1063:Lesser Cartographies
1003:Lesser Cartographies
876:Lesser Cartographies
841:"Changing Attitudes"
947:to be a sublist of
905:to be a sublist of
470:Enclave and exclave
1325:Knowledge:DEFINING
846:. Springer. p. 53.
319:Musicians from Foo
311:Musicians from Foo
1548:Amateur astronomy
1466:John Pack Lambert
1365:Leopold Kronecker
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307:Fooian musicians
285:Propose renaming
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91:delete/merge
90:
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1656:discipline)
1445:Deltahedron
1428:Deltahedron
833:. OxfordUP.
343:Vegaswikian
1644:Pythagoras
1342:Salix alba
1182:Psychonaut
1050:Jay Gatsby
985:Jay Gatsby
953:Jay Gatsby
915:Jay Gatsby
745:Jay Gatsby
724:Salix alba
1732:talk page
1441:Weak keep
1167:WP:POINTy
998:everybody
852:cite book
720:L'Hopital
694:. Rather
610:talk page
582:talk page
556:per nom.
395:talk page
367:talk page
257:talk page
229:talk page
75:talk page
1734:or in a
1672:Johnuniq
1488:Alansohn
1282:LhĂ´pital
612:or in a
584:or in a
397:or in a
369:or in a
259:or in a
231:or in a
77:or in a
55:March 31
38:March 30
20: |
1685:Comment
1654:similar
1636:amateur
1553:Chaveyd
1544:Delete.
1416:Comment
1393:Nyttend
1357:Comment
1321:Comment
1286:Nyttend
1251:Chaveyd
1229:amateur
1205:exclude
1201:include
1197:Comment
1046:Vi Hart
861:|title=
666:history
522:delete.
478:Nyttend
468:. Read
440:history
339:Support
162:WP:EGRS
43:April 1
1687:There
1640:Euclid
1628:Delete
1610:Delete
1571:Euclid
1529:Naraht
1501:delete
1462:Delete
1091:p. 94:
1082:Delete
1024:Delete
923:Delete
696:pointy
692:Delete
554:Delete
537:Delete
519:Delete
493:Delete
466:Delete
411:delete
273:rename
201:Delete
184:Delete
158:Delete
140:delete
1696:WP:RS
1028:Oculi
844:(PDF)
674:watch
670:links
495:as a
448:watch
444:links
172:. --
46:: -->
16:<
1712:talk
1676:talk
1642:and
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1593:Keep
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1525:Keep
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1280:and
1270:Keep
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1233:Ozob
1225:Keep
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1170:CfD.
1139:Keep
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1126:Dmcq
1122:Keep
1111:talk
1067:talk
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1007:talk
970:talk
931:talk
895:Keep
880:talk
865:help
827:"12"
813:ISBN
792:ISBN
771:ISBN
728:talk
678:logs
662:talk
658:edit
633:talk
568:----
562:talk
545:talk
528:talk
503:and
482:talk
452:logs
436:talk
432:edit
353:----
347:talk
309:and
209:talk
192:talk
149:talk
129:talk
35:<
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1340:.--
1177:can
730:):
325:--
321:).
290:to
108:to
22:Log
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856::
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850:{{
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