Knowledge

:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 June 7 - Knowledge

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646:, which was recently deleted. Not a notable enough office, and too redundant a category, to justify a category. The people in this category meet the GNG for things other than being an LDS bishop, either by rising to higher office in the LDS Church, or by being notable in some aspect other than religion. Since nearly all of the people in this category are in another LDS category, there is no loss of WP:DEFINING by removing it. Any people who aren't in any other LDS categories can be recategorized in 782:. I generally agree with the nominator's rationale that in most cases being an LDS bishop will not be defining, largely because bishop is a non-full-time position held by a lay leader. There are a few from the early days of the church where it might be, when it was more common for bishops to serve in the twenty to thirty year range. It's probably more towards being defining than being a stake president is, but those for whom being a bishop is defining are generally those in 1222:- the comment was not meant to be taken personally - it was made in a more generic sense - and I would have thought the perennial habituees here have at least accepted the fact that for over the last x years they have been the main inhabitants. The strictures/dark hole is in the nature of the beast - there is no obligation within the process to ever alert anyone as to what is going on here - unless there is a new reporting device that I am unware of, as to 1196:- one thing for CFD tragics to pass their judgement, another for where WikiTowns, and more recent variations of GLAM projects have to meet such responses. Whether OC/Trivial needs to be re-written is not even entertained. There might be situations where the CFD frame of mind needs to stretch beyond the easy 'delete' button and have to think out of the usual strictures, god forbid we have to go to Wikimedia's Category review person and say 799:
up the LDS hierarchy tend to have held these relatively low positions as well. In addition there are large numbers who are prominent people who happen to be Mormons. What I'm not finding is people who are notable for being LDS bishops. The comparison with Protestant pastors or Catholic priests isn't accurate because there are lots of people who become notable as these types of ministers, and the few who are prominent for other reasons (e.g.
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relation to this practically useless. I make comment here with reservations about the mushroom territory nature of this section of category decision making - as there is never any onus on the discussors for or against to actually go to the places where others may see - many of these discussions remain undiscovered until after the fact.
736:. Being a protestant pastor is generally a job that is held FULL-TIME for TWENTY TO THIRTY YEARS. Being an LDS bishop is a job that is held PART TIME for a FEW YEARS. So they're hardly analogous, and even if they were, since there are so many other LDS-related categories out there, this particular one isn't needed. 714:
baptist and other protestant pastors especially at certain times, have also held other jobs, but as long as the person was for a time a pastor we will categorize them as such. Bishops may not be paid for their work, but they commit a large amount of their time to serving as such, and it is worth categorizing by.
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It should be pointed out that talk about lay positions etc. is problematic given how different LDS polity and ordination are from those in episcopal or Protestant churches. Nonetheless, a review of the membership of the category shows the same issue as with stake presidency in many cases: people high
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from someone well versed in the process of legalities, I would have thought a small broadside generic comment about this process would have been taken with at least a sense of resigned humour, as it apparently hasnt, I unreservedly apologise to Olfcatory if he has taken the point as a personal jibe,
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I have just as much right to comment as anyone other user. I don't appreciate the implied characterization of me as (1) a "CFD tragic", (2) exercising an "easy 'delete button", or (3) thinking within certain strictures or a dark hole. Please play nice or don't play at all. I have at least provided a
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The street is part of a building's address/location, which I believe is a defining characteristic. One could reasonably "define" a building by its street address of "123 Something St". In most cases it would be reasonable for the lead sentence to say something like "Xxxxx is a building on Something
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No they are in the category because of their association to the road. The arguments above seek to use the address to establish their association. In the end this is nothing more then a collection of building associated the road by having an address there. That is not defining. What is is the
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evad's proposal - as to whether the category is not needed - there are in various parts of recent wikipedia glam projects where a specific locality and its features do indeed see a tie-in between roads and structures as being of vital use and need. 'Streets' or 'Roads; in a whole nation are in
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The bishop is a pastor. As a matter of course, we have categories for people who serve as pastors in other religions. There is no good policy reason to not do so for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, just because its pastors are also expected to hold other jobs. In reality, many
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The decision on the stake presidents category was not done in line with good policy. It ignored the issue of whether things are defining to the people involved. For people holding these positions, holding them is defining. It has a deep significant to their outlook and who they
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guideline-based reason for my opinion; I can't see that a guideline-based reason for keeping this structure has been presented yet. If any user wants to open up OC/Trivial for discussion, I would welcome it—but for now, it is the guideline supported by most recent consensus.
934:. The category is "intended to be more of a metacategory, breaking down buildings and structures by the road they are on, rather than by type (airport, hospital, etc) or location (city/suburb/town/locality/region)". For earlier discussions that lead to this proposal, see 1236:
Well, when a comment is indented beneath another's comments, it generally looks like a direct reply to the other's comment. But I accept your apology and understand that you didn't intend the comments to be taken how I took them.
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you might well be willing to check 'Easter gospel episodes' too. While you wouldn't check 'Resurrection of Jesus'. Frankly, if you have have a better name that covers both aspects of the category, I'll be happy to support that.
319:(removed by Marcocapelle). Also, while resurrection episodes can be called "Easter gospel episodes", no one would normally call them that. Choosing a strange name for a category makes it harder to find. 921: 1495: 1009:
There's not much point in deleting this category without also deleting the subcategories; if you want to discuss that then those categories should be tagged for CFD and their creators notified. -
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and I also feel sorry if he has in any ways been harmed by the imputations made. As to the general argument - I see that Ames and others are providing their element of the points of argument.
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No, it is not defining. While the location could be defining in a small number of cases, that makes the inclusion criteria ambiguous and again not something we keep. Clearly an article like
403: 336: 316: 292:. Small issue here, I noticed that the main parent categories are 'Gospel episodes' and 'Easter'. So it makes sense to name this category 'Easter gospel episodes' for reason of consistency. 783: 1184:. I don't think Knowledge is meant to be a directory of what streets particular buildings are on. Probable deletion of most of the subcategories is a logical follow-up to my opinion. 1385:
visible in the text, rather than hiding it behind the name of something that is not a specific building and which we are not suggesting should be under the category being discussed.
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When making one category a subcategory of another, ensure that the members of the subcategory really can be expected (with possibly a few exceptions) to belong to the parent also
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as to why the category exists at all: We did raise that question in the original discussions (linked in my original rationale). Specifically, "is the street a building is on a
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as being " and buildings, structures, and other features on it". In most cases, it is likely to be fairly clear decision as to whether an article is in the category or not.
620: 1143:(with an explicit link from there to here) because it is a West Australian category. Feel free to mention and link here from anywhere else that may be appropriate. 1503: 1353:
Not misleading in any way shape or form since it is in fact in the category. This is a normal way of linking buildings when we are talking about a specific one!
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St in Perth". It's not so obvious whether this applies to other structures, which typically would not have a street number or "street address" in the usual sense.
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I'm not sure that this category has an exclusive parent. It probably has multiple parents so I wouldn't sweat the parentage thing. For example, I've just added
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that is under that category and clearly belongs there. The reader might be led to believe that we are categorising such institutions by road, when we are not.
612: 1335:- if such an article existed - would not be categorised by road, because it probably had more than one branch. However the specific building that is the 603: 1336: 1306: 917: 759:
The bishop is the pastor. That is a doctrinal view and position. The amount of time in the position is on both sides more variable than you suggest.
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are organized. The is in effect a shared attribute for the structures which may or may not be defined by this fact. This probably fails as
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Actually the category structure is not 'owned' or controlled by any Wikiproject. As a result, each WP does not dictate category policy.
17: 980:. This is an unnecessary level of categorization. I did not see any similar categories and in general this is not how structures in 981: 474:—shoving the key doctrine of Christianity into a vague category that appears to be dealing with pericopae doesn't make sense to me. 728:
The consensus was I believe 5-1 in favor of deleting the stake president article; only you opposed it. Also, LDS bishops are more
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per nom, then try to sort out (e.g. by putting inclusion criteria on categories) this categorization which puts articles like
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to be synonymous category names. While under it, there should be various aspects of Easter / the Resurrection of Jesus, e.g.
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the CFD territory has not only a monopolistic concern about cats, but they cannot see outta the dark hole they inhabit.
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more homogeneously in its content. The point is, when you're interested in the explanation of bible texts and found the
1072: 1034: 407: 279: 311:: Some elements of the resurrection of Jesus are not about one particular resurrection gospel episodes, for example 1480:(leaving aside that buildings aren't people... perhaps some of the WP:OC sections should be written more generally) 1424:
with a road", it is "... by road", where subcategories are specific roads, whose contents are explicitly stated by
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determining what degree or nature of "association" is necessary to qualify a person for inclusion in the category
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category about what it contains does not change the fact that the category is itself the issue and the problem.
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of a single congregation (~400 members); we do not have a corresponding category to this in other religions.
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are also noted because the combination of minister and some other profession is unusual and remarked upon.
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are we categorizing buildings and structures into categories named after the roads they are on?
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I agree entirely that Resurrection of Jesus is the common name. However, the parent category is
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
1339:(the target of your piped link) can be defined as the building at 108 Stirling Tce, Toodyay. 874:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
825:, but even then being a bishop was somewhat ancillary to leading a settlement effort, so ... 560:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
158:. No need for an eponymous category to hold the main article and a single subcat. Delete per 73:
Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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was a reason for deletion, that would apply to any grouping of buildings by location:
1378:"This is a normal way of linking buildings when we are talking about a specific one!" 1228: 1201: 1127: 800: 1487: 1483: 1464: 1420: 1412: 1274: 1181: 1180:. I agree that this is an unnecessary level of categorization and probably invokes 985: 822: 1476: 1068: 1540: 1509: 1086: 1012: 964: 804: 509: 729: 651: 1071:. For each category, only one single entry, the road itself, would fit under 684: 644:
Category:Stake presidents of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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Believe it or don't believe it, but in any case this is what it's called.
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When we are talking about a specific building, we make the name of that
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Category:Bishops of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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Category:Bishops of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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Category:Buildings and structures on roads in Western Australia
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Category:Buildings and structures on roads in Western Australia
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Category:Buildings and structures in Western Australia by road
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as a parent - who's to say that this is not a natural parent?
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Category:Buildings and structures in Perth, Western Australia
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characteristic?" or "is categorising buildings by roads ...
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Actually, no that is not true. All of the streets go into
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Category:Film portrayals of Jesus' death and resurrection‎
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Category:Film portrayals of Jesus' death and resurrection‎
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Category:Film portrayals of Jesus' death and resurrection‎
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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Category:Members of the Presiding Bishopric (LDS Church)‎
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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This was my final attempt and then I'll close the issue.
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per my previous discussions with Mitch, linked above -
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An example of someone for whom being a bishop might be
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Category:Buildings and structures in Western Australia
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or one of its subcategories. FWIW, a bishop is the
1571:). No further edits should be made to this section. 882:). No further edits should be made to this section. 854:). No further edits should be made to this section. 568:). No further edits should be made to this section. 540:). No further edits should be made to this section. 241:). No further edits should be made to this section. 213:). No further edits should be made to this section. 81:). No further edits should be made to this section. 410:. Or maybe a better alternative for the latter is 1331:That's a very misleading example. The (unpiped) 1367:It's misleading because the visible text is an 1282: 1504:Category:Buildings and structures in Australia 1467:, an association itself isn't the issue (e.g. 1418:The category is not "Buildings and structures 1081:Category:Buildings and structures in Australia 786:and its subcategories, which should be kept. 491:Current name more clear and straight forward. 8: 936:WT:WA#Buildings and structures by road in WA 1337:Western Australian Bank, Newcastle Branch 940:User talk:Evad37#Categorization of roads 1473:Category:Obama Administration personnel 1309:is not defined by the street it is on! 1037:. This category is simply not needed. 1377: 7: 891:no consensus on deleting, therefore 335:You're right, I deliberately moved 18:Knowledge:Categories for discussion 28: 1277:(overcategorisation)?" My answer 1063:No, that goes completely against 982:Category:Buildings and structures 889:The result of the discussion was: 575:The result of the discussion was: 248:The result of the discussion was: 181:Not large enough to be justified. 88:The result of the discussion was: 642:Essentially the same reasons as 408:Category:Easter gospel episodes 280:Category:Easter gospel episodes 400:Category:Resurrection of Jesus 341:Category:Resurrection of Jesus 276:Category:Resurrection of Jesus 220:Category:Resurrection of Jesus 1: 1077:Category:Streets in Australia 1031:Category:Streets in Australia 30: 1415:. 19:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC) 412:Category:Easter in the Bible 339:up by one level, as to make 1073:Category:Roads in Australia 1035:Category:Roads in Australia 1588: 1539:under a B&S category. 1255:Rationale for not deleting 1139:This matter was raised at 821:to defining than usual is 648:Category:Latter Day Saints 1518:01:41, 18 June 2014 (UTC) 1475:are allowed), but rather 1459:16:44, 17 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consider 1411:This also violates 1373:specific building 761:John Pack Lambert 716:John Pack Lambert 701:John Pack Lambert 493:John Pack Lambert 183:John Pack Lambert 51: 50: 1579: 1562: 1537:Stirling Gardens 1484:WP:OC#SUBJECTIVE 1481: 1478: 1465:WP:OC#ASSOCIATED 1433: 1427: 1413:WP:OC#ASSOCIATED 1268: 1070: 1008: 915:Propose renaming 903: 873: 845: 753: 751: 746: 741: 671: 669: 664: 659: 633: 632: 600:Propose deleting 588: 559: 531: 273:Propose renaming 261: 232: 204: 146: 145: 117:Category:LessTif 113:Propose deleting 101: 72: 60:Category:LessTif 47: 36: 31: 1587: 1586: 1582: 1581: 1580: 1578: 1577: 1576: 1575: 1569:deletion review 1558: 1488:WP:OC#ARBITRARY 1479: 1431: 1429:Cathead on road 1425: 1258: 1239:Good Ol’factory 1212:Good Ol’factory 1186:Good Ol’factory 1105:Good Ol’factory 1002: 901: 880:deletion review 869: 863: 858: 852:deletion review 841: 827:Good Ol’factory 788:Good Ol’factory 749: 744: 739: 737: 667: 662: 657: 655: 606: 602: 586: 566:deletion review 555: 549: 544: 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1136: 1135: 1132: 1129: 1124: 1121: 1120: 1109: 1106: 1102: 1098: 1097: 1096: 1093: 1092: 1091: 1088: 1082: 1078: 1074: 1067:, which says 1066: 1062: 1061: 1060: 1059: 1058: 1057: 1056: 1055: 1048: 1044: 1040: 1036: 1032: 1028: 1027: 1026: 1025: 1022: 1019: 1018: 1017: 1014: 1006: 1001: 1000: 999: 995: 991: 987: 986:WP:OC#TRIVIAL 983: 979: 976: 974: 971: 970: 969: 966: 960: 957: 956: 953: 949: 945: 941: 937: 933: 930: 927: 923: 919: 916: 913: 912: 911: 908: 905: 904: 898: 894: 890: 887: 886: 883: 881: 877: 872: 866: 865: 860: 855: 853: 849: 844: 838: 837: 831: 828: 824: 820: 816: 815: 814: 810: 806: 802: 801:John Danforth 797: 794: 792: 789: 785: 781: 778: 770: 766: 762: 758: 757: 756: 752: 747: 742: 735: 731: 727: 726: 725: 721: 717: 712: 711: 710: 706: 702: 697: 694: 692: 689: 687: 686: 681: 678: 677: 674: 670: 665: 660: 653: 649: 645: 641: 638: 630: 626: 622: 618: 614: 610: 605: 601: 598: 597: 596: 593: 590: 589: 583: 579: 576: 573: 572: 569: 567: 563: 558: 552: 551: 546: 541: 539: 535: 530: 524: 523: 519: 515: 511: 507: 504: 502: 498: 494: 490: 487: 485: 481: 477: 476:Beeswaxcandle 473: 470: 469: 464: 460: 456: 452: 451: 450: 446: 442: 441:Laurel Lodged 438: 434: 431: 427: 423: 419: 415: 413: 409: 405: 401: 397: 393: 389: 386: 385: 384: 383: 380: 376: 372: 371:Laurel Lodged 368: 365: 364: 359: 355: 351: 346: 342: 338: 334: 331: 330: 329: 326: 324: 323: 318: 314: 310: 307: 306: 303: 299: 295: 291: 288: 285: 281: 277: 274: 271: 270: 269: 266: 263: 262: 256: 252: 249: 246: 245: 242: 240: 236: 231: 225: 224: 219: 214: 212: 208: 203: 197: 196: 192: 188: 184: 180: 177: 176: 173: 169: 165: 161: 157: 154: 151: 143: 139: 135: 131: 127: 123: 118: 114: 111: 110: 109: 106: 103: 102: 96: 92: 89: 86: 85: 82: 80: 76: 71: 65: 64: 59: 54: 44: 41: 39: 33: 32: 23: 19: 1559: 1556: 1532: 1512: 1508: 1507: 1491: 1490:. Also, if 1419: 1382: 1372: 1368: 1283: 1254: 1223: 1219: 1197: 1193: 1177: 1122: 1100: 1089: 1085: 1084: 1015: 1011: 1010: 977: 967: 963: 962: 958: 931: 928: 914: 899: 892: 888: 870: 867: 842: 839: 823:Orange Seely 818: 795: 779: 695: 688: 683: 679: 639: 599: 584: 577: 574: 556: 553: 528: 525: 505: 488: 471: 455:Marcocapelle 432: 418:Marcocapelle 387: 366: 350:Marcocapelle 332: 325: 320: 308: 294:Marcocapelle 289: 286: 272: 257: 250: 247: 229: 226: 201: 198: 178: 155: 152: 112: 97: 90: 87: 69: 66: 1463:Looking at 1451:Vegaswikian 1369:institution 1355:Vegaswikian 1311:Vegaswikian 1271:WP:DEFINING 1261:Vegaswikian 1159:Vegaswikian 1039:Vegaswikian 1005:Vegaswikian 990:Vegaswikian 730:lay leaders 160:WP:SMALLCAT 1436:Mitch Ames 1421:associated 1387:Mitch Ames 1341:Mitch Ames 1293:Mitch Ames 1145:Mitch Ames 944:Mitch Ames 652:lay leader 164:Tassedethe 1565:talk page 1065:WP:SUBCAT 897:Fayenatic 876:talk page 848:talk page 682:per nom. 582:Fayenatic 562:talk page 534:talk page 255:Fayenatic 235:talk page 207:talk page 95:Fayenatic 75:talk page 1567:or in a 1383:building 1229:satusuro 1202:satusuro 1128:satusuro 878:or in a 850:or in a 564:or in a 536:or in a 388:Comment: 333:Comment: 237:or in a 209:or in a 77:or in a 20:‎ | 1194:Comment 1123:Support 959:Support 734:pastors 680:Support 617:history 433:Comment 130:history 1541:DexDor 1533:Rename 1178:Delete 978:Delete 932:Rename 893:rename 819:closer 805:Mangoe 796:delete 780:Delete 696:Oppose 578:delete 510:Mangoe 290:Rename 179:Delete 156:Delete 91:delete 55:June 7 43:June 8 38:June 6 1281:/is: 1141:WT:WA 907:ondon 732:than 625:watch 621:links 592:ondon 315:, or 265:ondon 138:watch 134:links 105:ondon 46:: --> 16:< 1545:talk 1510:Evad 1486:nor 1471:and 1455:talk 1440:talk 1391:talk 1359:talk 1345:talk 1315:talk 1297:talk 1263:and 1224:nice 1163:talk 1149:talk 1087:Evad 1083:. - 1043:talk 1013:Evad 994:talk 965:Evad 948:talk 938:and 895:. – 809:talk 765:talk 720:talk 705:talk 699:are. 685:tahc 629:logs 613:talk 609:edit 580:. – 514:talk 506:keep 497:talk 489:Keep 480:talk 472:Keep 459:talk 445:talk 422:talk 406:and 398:and 375:talk 367:Keep 354:talk 322:tahc 309:Keep 298:talk 253:. – 251:keep 187:talk 168:talk 142:logs 126:talk 122:edit 35:< 1279:was 1198:hey 1101:why 1075:or 1033:or 920:to 278:to 22:Log 1547:) 1513:37 1502:, 1498:, 1457:) 1442:) 1432:}} 1426:{{ 1393:) 1361:) 1347:) 1317:) 1299:) 1257:– 1165:) 1151:) 1090:37 1045:) 1016:37 996:) 988:. 968:37 950:) 942:. 811:) 767:) 722:) 707:) 627:| 623:| 619:| 615:| 611:| 516:) 499:) 482:) 461:) 447:) 424:) 377:) 356:) 300:) 189:) 170:) 162:. 140:| 136:| 132:| 128:| 124:| 1543:( 1453:( 1438:( 1389:( 1357:( 1343:( 1313:( 1295:( 1267:: 1259:@ 1161:( 1147:( 1041:( 1007:: 1003:@ 992:( 946:( 902:L 807:( 763:( 750:p 745:b 740:p 718:( 703:( 668:p 663:b 658:p 631:) 607:( 587:L 512:( 495:( 478:( 457:( 443:( 420:( 373:( 352:( 296:( 260:L 185:( 166:( 144:) 120:( 100:L

Index

Knowledge:Categories for discussion
Log
June 6
June 8
talk page
deletion review
Fayenatic
L
ondon
11:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Category:LessTif
edit
talk
history
links
watch
logs
WP:SMALLCAT
Tassedethe
talk
20:14, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
John Pack Lambert
talk
03:57, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
talk page
deletion review
talk page
deletion review
Fayenatic
L

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