646:, which was recently deleted. Not a notable enough office, and too redundant a category, to justify a category. The people in this category meet the GNG for things other than being an LDS bishop, either by rising to higher office in the LDS Church, or by being notable in some aspect other than religion. Since nearly all of the people in this category are in another LDS category, there is no loss of WP:DEFINING by removing it. Any people who aren't in any other LDS categories can be recategorized in
782:. I generally agree with the nominator's rationale that in most cases being an LDS bishop will not be defining, largely because bishop is a non-full-time position held by a lay leader. There are a few from the early days of the church where it might be, when it was more common for bishops to serve in the twenty to thirty year range. It's probably more towards being defining than being a stake president is, but those for whom being a bishop is defining are generally those in
1222:- the comment was not meant to be taken personally - it was made in a more generic sense - and I would have thought the perennial habituees here have at least accepted the fact that for over the last x years they have been the main inhabitants. The strictures/dark hole is in the nature of the beast - there is no obligation within the process to ever alert anyone as to what is going on here - unless there is a new reporting device that I am unware of, as to
1196:- one thing for CFD tragics to pass their judgement, another for where WikiTowns, and more recent variations of GLAM projects have to meet such responses. Whether OC/Trivial needs to be re-written is not even entertained. There might be situations where the CFD frame of mind needs to stretch beyond the easy 'delete' button and have to think out of the usual strictures, god forbid we have to go to Wikimedia's Category review person and say
799:
up the LDS hierarchy tend to have held these relatively low positions as well. In addition there are large numbers who are prominent people who happen to be
Mormons. What I'm not finding is people who are notable for being LDS bishops. The comparison with Protestant pastors or Catholic priests isn't accurate because there are lots of people who become notable as these types of ministers, and the few who are prominent for other reasons (e.g.
1126:
relation to this practically useless. I make comment here with reservations about the mushroom territory nature of this section of category decision making - as there is never any onus on the discussors for or against to actually go to the places where others may see - many of these discussions remain undiscovered until after the fact.
736:. Being a protestant pastor is generally a job that is held FULL-TIME for TWENTY TO THIRTY YEARS. Being an LDS bishop is a job that is held PART TIME for a FEW YEARS. So they're hardly analogous, and even if they were, since there are so many other LDS-related categories out there, this particular one isn't needed.
714:
baptist and other protestant pastors especially at certain times, have also held other jobs, but as long as the person was for a time a pastor we will categorize them as such. Bishops may not be paid for their work, but they commit a large amount of their time to serving as such, and it is worth categorizing by.
798:
It should be pointed out that talk about lay positions etc. is problematic given how different LDS polity and ordination are from those in episcopal or
Protestant churches. Nonetheless, a review of the membership of the category shows the same issue as with stake presidency in many cases: people high
1226:
from someone well versed in the process of legalities, I would have thought a small broadside generic comment about this process would have been taken with at least a sense of resigned humour, as it apparently hasnt, I unreservedly apologise to
Olfcatory if he has taken the point as a personal jibe,
1209:
I have just as much right to comment as anyone other user. I don't appreciate the implied characterization of me as (1) a "CFD tragic", (2) exercising an "easy 'delete button", or (3) thinking within certain strictures or a dark hole. Please play nice or don't play at all. I have at least provided a
1284:
The street is part of a building's address/location, which I believe is a defining characteristic. One could reasonably "define" a building by its street address of "123 Something St". In most cases it would be reasonable for the lead sentence to say something like "Xxxxx is a building on
Something
1448:
No they are in the category because of their association to the road. The arguments above seek to use the address to establish their association. In the end this is nothing more then a collection of building associated the road by having an address there. That is not defining. What is is the
1125:
evad's proposal - as to whether the category is not needed - there are in various parts of recent wikipedia glam projects where a specific locality and its features do indeed see a tie-in between roads and structures as being of vital use and need. 'Streets' or 'Roads; in a whole nation are in
713:
The bishop is a pastor. As a matter of course, we have categories for people who serve as pastors in other religions. There is no good policy reason to not do so for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, just because its pastors are also expected to hold other jobs. In reality, many
698:
The decision on the stake presidents category was not done in line with good policy. It ignored the issue of whether things are defining to the people involved. For people holding these positions, holding them is defining. It has a deep significant to their outlook and who they
1210:
guideline-based reason for my opinion; I can't see that a guideline-based reason for keeping this structure has been presented yet. If any user wants to open up OC/Trivial for discussion, I would welcome it—but for now, it is the guideline supported by most recent consensus.
934:. The category is "intended to be more of a metacategory, breaking down buildings and structures by the road they are on, rather than by type (airport, hospital, etc) or location (city/suburb/town/locality/region)". For earlier discussions that lead to this proposal, see
1236:
Well, when a comment is indented beneath another's comments, it generally looks like a direct reply to the other's comment. But I accept your apology and understand that you didn't intend the comments to be taken how I took them.
347:
you might well be willing to check 'Easter gospel episodes' too. While you wouldn't check 'Resurrection of Jesus'. Frankly, if you have have a better name that covers both aspects of the category, I'll be happy to support that.
319:(removed by Marcocapelle). Also, while resurrection episodes can be called "Easter gospel episodes", no one would normally call them that. Choosing a strange name for a category makes it harder to find.
921:
1495:
1009:
There's not much point in deleting this category without also deleting the subcategories; if you want to discuss that then those categories should be tagged for CFD and their creators notified. -
1227:
and I also feel sorry if he has in any ways been harmed by the imputations made. As to the general argument - I see that Ames and others are providing their element of the points of argument.
1305:
No, it is not defining. While the location could be defining in a small number of cases, that makes the inclusion criteria ambiguous and again not something we keep. Clearly an article like
403:
336:
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292:. Small issue here, I noticed that the main parent categories are 'Gospel episodes' and 'Easter'. So it makes sense to name this category 'Easter gospel episodes' for reason of consistency.
783:
1184:. I don't think Knowledge is meant to be a directory of what streets particular buildings are on. Probable deletion of most of the subcategories is a logical follow-up to my opinion.
1385:
visible in the text, rather than hiding it behind the name of something that is not a specific building and which we are not suggesting should be under the category being discussed.
1499:
1069:
When making one category a subcategory of another, ensure that the members of the subcategory really can be expected (with possibly a few exceptions) to belong to the parent also
1269:
as to why the category exists at all: We did raise that question in the original discussions (linked in my original rationale). Specifically, "is the street a building is on a
42:
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as being " and buildings, structures, and other features on it". In most cases, it is likely to be fairly clear decision as to whether an article is in the category or not.
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1143:(with an explicit link from there to here) because it is a West Australian category. Feel free to mention and link here from anywhere else that may be appropriate.
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1353:
Not misleading in any way shape or form since it is in fact in the category. This is a normal way of linking buildings when we are talking about a specific one!
1285:
St in Perth". It's not so obvious whether this applies to other structures, which typically would not have a street number or "street address" in the usual sense.
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643:
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I'm not sure that this category has an exclusive parent. It probably has multiple parents so I wouldn't sweat the parentage thing. For example, I've just added
1375:
that is under that category and clearly belongs there. The reader might be led to believe that we are categorising such institutions by road, when we are not.
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1335:- if such an article existed - would not be categorised by road, because it probably had more than one branch. However the specific building that is the
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The bishop is the pastor. That is a doctrinal view and position. The amount of time in the position is on both sides more variable than you suggest.
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are organized. The is in effect a shared attribute for the structures which may or may not be defined by this fact. This probably fails as
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Actually the category structure is not 'owned' or controlled by any
Wikiproject. As a result, each WP does not dictate category policy.
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980:. This is an unnecessary level of categorization. I did not see any similar categories and in general this is not how structures in
981:
474:—shoving the key doctrine of Christianity into a vague category that appears to be dealing with pericopae doesn't make sense to me.
728:
The consensus was I believe 5-1 in favor of deleting the stake president article; only you opposed it. Also, LDS bishops are more
1535:
per nom, then try to sort out (e.g. by putting inclusion criteria on categories) this categorization which puts articles like
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to be synonymous category names. While under it, there should be various aspects of Easter / the
Resurrection of Jesus, e.g.
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the CFD territory has not only a monopolistic concern about cats, but they cannot see outta the dark hole they inhabit.
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more homogeneously in its content. The point is, when you're interested in the explanation of bible texts and found the
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311:: Some elements of the resurrection of Jesus are not about one particular resurrection gospel episodes, for example
1480:(leaving aside that buildings aren't people... perhaps some of the WP:OC sections should be written more generally)
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are we categorizing buildings and structures into categories named after the roads they are on?
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I agree entirely that
Resurrection of Jesus is the common name. However, the parent category is
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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1339:(the target of your piped link) can be defined as the building at 108 Stirling Tce, Toodyay.
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
825:, but even then being a bishop was somewhat ancillary to leading a settlement effort, so ...
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
158:. No need for an eponymous category to hold the main article and a single subcat. Delete per
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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1482:. An address is not a loosely defined association, and the inclusion criteria is neither
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was a reason for deletion, that would apply to any grouping of buildings by location:
1378:"This is a normal way of linking buildings when we are talking about a specific one!"
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1180:. I agree that this is an unnecessary level of categorization and probably invokes
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1071:. For each category, only one single entry, the road itself, would fit under
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Category:Stake presidents of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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Believe it or don't believe it, but in any case this is what it's called.
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When we are talking about a specific building, we make the name of that
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Category:Bishops of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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Category:Bishops of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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Category:Buildings and structures on roads in
Western Australia
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Category:Buildings and structures on roads in
Western Australia
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Category:Buildings and structures in
Western Australia by road
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as a parent - who's to say that this is not a natural parent?
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Category:Buildings and structures in Perth, Western Australia
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characteristic?" or "is categorising buildings by roads ...
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Actually, no that is not true. All of the streets go into
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Category:Film portrayals of Jesus' death and resurrection‎
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Category:Film portrayals of Jesus' death and resurrection‎
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Category:Film portrayals of Jesus' death and resurrection‎
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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Category:Members of the Presiding Bishopric (LDS Church)‎
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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This was my final attempt and then I'll close the issue.
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per my previous discussions with Mitch, linked above -
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An example of someone for whom being a bishop might be
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93:. I have added a link in the article to the sub-cat. –
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Category:Buildings and structures in Western Australia
1079:, while everything except that one entry fits within
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or one of its subcategories. FWIW, a bishop is the
1571:). No further edits should be made to this section.
882:). No further edits should be made to this section.
854:). No further edits should be made to this section.
568:). No further edits should be made to this section.
540:). No further edits should be made to this section.
241:). No further edits should be made to this section.
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410:. Or maybe a better alternative for the latter is
1331:That's a very misleading example. The (unpiped)
1367:It's misleading because the visible text is an
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1504:Category:Buildings and structures in Australia
1467:, an association itself isn't the issue (e.g.
1418:The category is not "Buildings and structures
1081:Category:Buildings and structures in Australia
786:and its subcategories, which should be kept.
491:Current name more clear and straight forward.
8:
936:WT:WA#Buildings and structures by road in WA
1337:Western Australian Bank, Newcastle Branch
940:User talk:Evad37#Categorization of roads
1473:Category:Obama Administration personnel
1309:is not defined by the street it is on!
1037:. This category is simply not needed.
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891:no consensus on deleting, therefore
335:You're right, I deliberately moved
18:Knowledge:Categories for discussion
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1277:(overcategorisation)?" My answer
1063:No, that goes completely against
982:Category:Buildings and structures
889:The result of the discussion was:
575:The result of the discussion was:
248:The result of the discussion was:
181:Not large enough to be justified.
88:The result of the discussion was:
642:Essentially the same reasons as
408:Category:Easter gospel episodes
280:Category:Easter gospel episodes
400:Category:Resurrection of Jesus
341:Category:Resurrection of Jesus
276:Category:Resurrection of Jesus
220:Category:Resurrection of Jesus
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1031:Category:Streets in Australia
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1415:. 19:19, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
412:Category:Easter in the Bible
339:up by one level, as to make
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1035:Category:Roads in Australia
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1539:under a B&S category.
1255:Rationale for not deleting
1139:This matter was raised at
821:to defining than usual is
648:Category:Latter Day Saints
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1475:are allowed), but rather
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1560:Please do not modify it.
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1275:Intersection by location
1099:The larger question is:
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871:Please do not modify it.
843:Please do not modify it.
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557:Please do not modify it.
529:Please do not modify it.
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345:Category:Gospel episodes
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230:Please do not modify it.
202:Please do not modify it.
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1182:WP:OC#TRIVIAL
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1490:. Also, if
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823:Orange Seely
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455:Marcocapelle
432:
418:Marcocapelle
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294:Marcocapelle
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1463:Looking at
1451:Vegaswikian
1369:institution
1355:Vegaswikian
1311:Vegaswikian
1271:WP:DEFINING
1261:Vegaswikian
1159:Vegaswikian
1039:Vegaswikian
1005:Vegaswikian
990:Vegaswikian
730:lay leaders
160:WP:SMALLCAT
1436:Mitch Ames
1421:associated
1387:Mitch Ames
1341:Mitch Ames
1293:Mitch Ames
1145:Mitch Ames
944:Mitch Ames
652:lay leader
164:Tassedethe
1565:talk page
1065:WP:SUBCAT
897:Fayenatic
876:talk page
848:talk page
682:per nom.
582:Fayenatic
562:talk page
534:talk page
255:Fayenatic
235:talk page
207:talk page
95:Fayenatic
75:talk page
1567:or in a
1383:building
1229:satusuro
1202:satusuro
1128:satusuro
878:or in a
850:or in a
564:or in a
536:or in a
388:Comment:
333:Comment:
237:or in a
209:or in a
77:or in a
20: |
1194:Comment
1123:Support
959:Support
734:pastors
680:Support
617:history
433:Comment
130:history
1541:DexDor
1533:Rename
1178:Delete
978:Delete
932:Rename
893:rename
819:closer
805:Mangoe
796:delete
780:Delete
696:Oppose
578:delete
510:Mangoe
290:Rename
179:Delete
156:Delete
91:delete
55:June 7
43:June 8
38:June 6
1281:/is:
1141:WT:WA
907:ondon
732:than
625:watch
621:links
592:ondon
315:, or
265:ondon
138:watch
134:links
105:ondon
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1297:talk
1263:and
1224:nice
1163:talk
1149:talk
1087:Evad
1083:. -
1043:talk
1013:Evad
994:talk
965:Evad
948:talk
938:and
895:. –
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699:are.
685:tahc
629:logs
613:talk
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506:keep
497:talk
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480:talk
472:Keep
459:talk
445:talk
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406:and
398:and
375:talk
367:Keep
354:talk
322:tahc
309:Keep
298:talk
253:. –
251:keep
187:talk
168:talk
142:logs
126:talk
122:edit
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1279:was
1198:hey
1101:why
1075:or
1033:or
920:to
278:to
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