Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2015 August 3

201:].) I agree with you however, that it needs a clean up. I am by no means an expert at the creation of category pages however that's what the community is here for in my opinion -- To help improve content. As a quick secondary note: Homosexuality and Sexual Orientation are different. Homosexuality is a specific reference to those who have a sexual preference towards the same sex whereas sexual orientation is a umbrella term. The whole point in having subcategories is so that something can be further categorized. From a readers POV it could be said they'd prefer to be able to look at articles specifically about societies views towards homosexuals rather than being slapped with a massive list covering all orientations. I'd encourage you to remove the request for deletion and I will work to improve the article by removing the article read-a-like sections ect. Thanks for your input :) 3613:

or Italy? Or only those from the territory that later became the Slovenian republic of Yugoslavia and later Slovenia? This is the whole point of categorising people of WWII by nationality ie Yugoslav, it makes people easier to categorise because the places they were from are easily defined. If you want to make the point that someone was a Slovene, then you also use the category "Slovenian people", which should probably be renamed "Slovene people" to avoid this sort of confusion. If someone was an ethnic Italian but lived in what later became Slovenia, are you saying they should be in Slovenian people of WWII, or Italian people of WWII? Or perhaps you are saying both?

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as distinct from Zagreb. During WWII there was no Slovenia except in the minds of Slovene Partisans, until 1943 when a republic was created within a federative Yugoslavia. It didn't really exist as a formed polity until the end of the war, but Yugoslavia existed de jure throughout the war. It isn't useful to have a child category that says something about itself that isn't grounded in reality, and that is that Slovenia was a nation-state during WWII and had people in it that were Slovenian citizens. They weren't, they were Yugoslav citizens, and nationality in a citizenship sense is what the parent category is about. That can clearly be seen by the schema used.

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ambiguous terminology by itself and it could refer to any representation of human sexual desire for something then that thing could be named their orientation. Due to the ambiguity of the parent topic and its broad application I think it's fair to say that a subcategory wouldn't be so bad. I have edited out the article-read-alike sections, I invite you to read it if you will and provide me feedback. If you still feel like the category should be up for deletion then we will see how this discussion goes, otherwise I look forward to working with you in improving the category or relevant edits. Thanks friend :)

4403:. Both fit into our current category structure. While the execution and rationale by the creator leave to be desired, these categories are justified by the extensive coverage and many incidents of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism in the United States. As pointed out above, many articles should not migrate to either but (unfortunately) there is enough potential for both cats. 3718:

exist as a nation, and there was a nation-state called Montenegro or Bosnia and Herzegovina during WWII. There wasn't. This strange categorisation seems to only affect Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia in this category. There is no "Flemish people of WWII" because the Flemish are an ethnic group. Perhaps it is because both were divided up by the Germans.

2723:(disfunctional, limited in scope, and not mutually exclusive with this one) is currently a candidate for removal. If we remove fascists rulers as well we may create a huge void in our categorization structure. I would consider proposals that would take us forward from the current situation, preferably taking a more comprehensive approach. 3496:. It is self-evident that the nation-state of Yugoslavia existed, and people who were citizens of that nation-state were Yugoslav people. This is demonstrated by the fact that, between 1920 or so and 1990, people's passports weren't issued by Slovenia etc, they were issued by Yugoslavia. If you look at how the parent category ( 4645:. Also we do not use the term "America" in the United States category tree. Also advocastion of "sharia law in America" seems to fit more with fundamendalists than terrorists. Category:Islamic terrorist incidents currentlt has no subcategories by country anyway. What makes the United States special in this case? 3539:

It isn't about being "helpful" or "unhelpful". That is exactly how this category tree is composed, by nation-state. Many nation-states have multiple "nations" or ethnicities", like Hutu's and Tutsi's in Rwanda. The current Yugoslav people in WWII sub tree just doesn't follow the schema for its parent

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While I share some of the concerns of those who wish to delete, I am not overly concerned categorizing someone as a fascist if he meets the criteria. Deleting this category right now could do more damage than good since the category dictators has been removed time and again and totalitarian dictators

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points that they were both a nationality and an ethnicity but still a "supra-ethnic" group. The smaller groups like Serbs and Croats never ceased existing. Regarding World War II, I suggest that they be treated as subcategories of the larger whole. For the same reason that British people categories

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Nationality is usually not a choice, I am Australian because I was born here. People that come here and become citizens have chosen to become Australian, though in limited cases they may remain dual nationals. A Slovene born in Bad Radkersburg is Austrian by nationality. If they moved to Slovenia, I

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Nationality is a choice. So of course, if someone was ethnic Italian (as demonstrated by good sources) living in what later became Slovenia, they would be put in the Italian category tree. Likewise, members of Slovene minorities in Austria/Italy would be considered Slovene for this purpose. Very few

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Of course. Third Reich people of World War II, for those people from areas within the territory of the Third Reich. But tell me, by your preferred definition of the category "Slovenian people of World War II", does it include people from Slovene minorities that were from the nation-states of Austria

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If you think 1922-90 is fleeting, that's your call. I doubt anyone will agree with you. But WWII is the only period under discussion, and certainly not post-war republics or the passports issued then. Passports issued by KSCS and Yugoslav governments pre-war weren't different if you lived in Maribor

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do not merge. This highlights the oft-misunderstood point that nationality ≠ citizenship in all cases. Citizenship always corresponds to a nationality of the same name, but nationality does not always correspond to a citizenship of the same name, and a person may have multiple nationalities but only

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Okay, so Radical Islam goes to "Islamic fundamentalism". At the start of that article we get "Definitions of Islamic fundamentalism vary." That is a red flag that categories will not work. We need categories where we can have a consensus on the contents. The problem here is that while there seems a

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No-one is arguing that they weren't/aren't different ethnicities, but these categories are outliers from a scheme that is firmly rooted in nationality, not ethnicity. Essentially, in my view, they are ahistorical, as they support a false POV based on the current arrangements, that Yugoslavia didn't

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fleeting by any historical definition. As said, "nationality" and "citizenship" are not (always) synonymous and there is no harm in respecting this local peculiarity. The existence of the category simply says that "Slovene" was a nation back then (which it was, with own culture, educational system

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Yes to dispersing the Middle East! In reality, however, you would look at upmerging to Western Asia and considering it also for North Africa (unless a tree is specific to Egypt). The Middle East is an intercontinental region, much like Latin America. It's ill-suited for systemic organization under

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specifically refers to the two people attracted to their own gender. Whereas orientation could refer to a number of different variants including bisexuality, a-sexuality ect. I think it's fair to say that "sexual orientation" is a much broader term than homosexuality. Sexual orientation is such an

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If we are to create such a category it should be because it improves the categorization structure, not because of a wish to "salvage" a bad category. On a practical level it's probably simpler to separate deletion of the bad category (an admin action) from creation of a good category (which would

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I don't quite see the point, because these four countries did not cease to exist during the existence of Yugoslavia, they exist these days so they can fit nicely into the modern-day per-country/state categorization, and such categorization is found in sources, both because the groups of Partisans

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Yes, there's much work to be done here. I'm just getting rid of wrestling first. I think it's better to only have those listed by league (if it's within reason) under each sports category. Then when a WWE situation comes around, it can be considered separate from say Olympic wrestling venues. --

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by school and each contain 1 or 2 articles. Since most modern professional American football players already have Knowledge (XXG) articles, these categories are unlikely to grow until new notable athletes emerge. No objection to recreating these later if more content appears. (Background: In my

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If people want to track groups of Radical Islamists, they can create their own detabase with links to Knowledge (XXG) articles, that is not a proper use of Knowledge (XXG). Knowledge (XXG) categories need to be NPOV, to be defining to the articles, to have clear yes or no definitions and to use

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I think using the Canadian spelling in the category does lead to editors who probably don't know any better switching the spelling in the rest of the article. I recently went through this entire category and there were approximately 200-250 out of 600 with the Canadian spelling. When searching

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calling someone facists is a long standing insult. This category should be limited to people who self-described as such. Is there any source anywhere where Amin said he was a fascist? However that would narrow it to be less than useful. Fascism was a political movement in Italy connected with

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Yugoslav clearly was a nationality. Lots of people identified with it to one degree or another. There were even a few people who identified with it so much they stopped identifying with any specific ethnicity. However the tearing apart of Yugoslavia during World War II makes the whole issue

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by school and each contain 1 or 2 articles. Since a university only has one overall leader at a time, these categories are inherently small and a Google search didn't make growth seem likely, at least with English sources. No objection to recreating these later if more content appears.

4517:. If there are or will be more articles about fundamentalist activities or organizations that are not clearly terror incidents, they should also be included in the category you ask about. We need it, however, first and foremost for efficient navigation through the category structure. 2544:

tree which at least on a cursory examination consists of people who were/are members of technically fascist organizations. Thus I'm not seeing a problem with that, but rather with the poor population of this smallish subcat. That said, category doesn't fit all that well into the

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and the Salafi movement and Islamic Terrorism, one is not the other, not all Wahhabist support suicide bombings, and we will be grouping many unlike things. Plus whether an individual or institution is or is not Wahhabist/Salafi is often a major point of

2602:-- I have a problem with this. Most of the people listed were obnoxious dictators, but deciding who among them can be correctly classified as fascist involves a POV decision. We might possibly rename it to right-wing totalitarian dictators. 3871:

What about a combination of the two things you've suggested? Rename them unambiguously for the ethnic group (that Yerpo refers to as nationality) rather than the citizenship (ie Serb, Montenegrin, Slovene, Serb, Bosniak), and remove them from

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I appreciate your comments. The category Sexual orientation and society is a parent category whereas this is a subcategory. Clearly it's a separate and notable issue given the fact it has it's own article on Knowledge (XXG) (see

2683:"Right Wing" is difficult considering he at times was closely aligned with the Soviet Union. I think we need to be much more cautious in creating categories that attempt to link people by philosophy than we have been to date. 3508:, "nationality" is almost exclusively used in its nation-state sense, and there are no ethnic groups except Jews, or any subsets of nation-states that existed during WWII. I'm keen to understand your opposition in terms of 3482:

itself says "The policy focused on a strong central government under the control of the Communist Party, and on recognition of the multiple nationalities". Those nationalities didn't spring up from nowhere after the war. —

3378:(the one that is missing) was a puppet country of the Axis which included modern Croatia, modern Bosnia and Herzegovina and some other additions and subtractions, and due to the complexities I believe a separate discussion 713:

There's a longstanding CFD consensus that because plant and animal species are not confined by national borders, they should generally be categorized broadly by region or continent rather than by every individual country

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people declared themselves primarily "Yugoslavian", as opposed to, say, today's Americans of different ethnic backgrounds. Ease of categorization shouldn't obscure cultural realities. As for Slovenian vs. Slovene, see

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That's exactly what I'm trying to achieve here. My view is that ethnicity should be categorised from the people by ethnicity tree, not the people of WWII by nationality tree. So, an article might be placed in

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been changed. I must oppose the concept of "West Asia", as that ought to include Siberia. Southwest Asia might be acceptable. If WGSRPD is using such a stupid term, it does not mean that WP should do so.

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Imho this is not so much a concern. This is why. So far we discussed the items that are in the cat, of which some need to be removed. We never discussed those who should be added to proper categories.

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I don't think treating "nationality" and "citizenship" as synonyms is useful here. Yes, there are differing viewpoints about that, but what harm would be to recognize the local habit (as explained in

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by year, by state and by type (IED, car bomb etc) so I'm not quite convinced that also subcategorizing by motive (e.g. Islamism) is necessary (otherwise I would have created that category myself).

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page anyway?) So even if this were to be kept, it would still need to be cleaned up for misplaced content — but I still don't see why it's needed as a category of its own, as a separate thing from

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I think we just disagree about whether a sub-categorization scheme with this many small categories is "accepted" to aid navigation. (You may also want to weigh in on the Rector nomination, above.)

3691:. While these weren't nationalities in the modern sense of the word, they were known as different peoples / ethnicities at that time and long before. I wouldn't oppose renaming the categories to 5309: 4256:

shouldn't be in a Radical Islam category. If not deleted this should be renamed to something like "Islamic terrorist incidents in the United States" (for consistency with categories such as

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Thank you for your excellent question that allows me to clarify the need. When looking at the CfDd category, your concern that we have no articles for this category is real. However,

2517:, furthermore several biographies which contain that category, are dubious: Félix Houphouët-Boigny, Augusto Pinochet, Idi Amin, José Félix Uriburu... etc. This is also a duplicate of 6056: 6052: 5624: 3660:

The reason for this disagreement is that you treat the nationality as synonymous to citizenship and me as closer to ethnicity (as in "nation is a strongly established ethnic group,

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I removed 17 of the 35 articles because they were at first glance original research. Those 17 articles never in the text called the subject a Fascist. For what it is worth, calling

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Definitely not. Western Asia and the Arabian Peninsula are different level 2 regions, and the Middle East category would be dispersed, not just upmerged into the official regions.

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without bias against any recreation if more articles come to exist. Such small categories do not help navigation. They needlessly split both the alum cats and the football cats.

157:, making this effectively a duplicate of another category that already exists. And the second is that the category page appears to be functioning at least partly as a misplaced 4638: 4523: 4514: 4494: 4469: 4396: 4191: 4740:

I think this is part of an attempt to ascribe all species of bacteria on Knowledge (XXG) to a source textbook. This is not a defining characteristic of a bacterial species.

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The category structure for US college athletics is definitely part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme, and, as these are all active programs (unlike the

3554:"Helpful" or "unhelpful" should be top priority, if we're trying to create a useful structure. Fleeting 20-th century states aren't. Or do you think we should also upmerge 842:

It is a misunderstanding that Western Asia (as defined by WGSRDPD) also includes Siberia. Western Asia contains countries from Turkey until Afghanistan, so including Iran.

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category. If you have evidence that KSCS/Yugoslav passports issued between 1922 and 1941 were different if they were issued to a resident of Maribor, I'd like to see it.

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We only partially agree since I'm still not convinced of the need of a merger as nominated, I'm only proposing to edit the category pages by removing one of the parents.

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with political sovereignity"). We will not come together like this, continuing to poke at the other person's viewpoint from own viewpoint. We need other opinions. As for

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A total ban on categories for articles, of which the definitions are somewhat disputed, creates huge gaps in our category structure and does not serve WP readers well.

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This category is rather a mess - e.g. it has no parent categories so (despite its text) it's hard to work out exactly what its inclusion criteria are. Articles like

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which it could then be placed under) and purged of many/most of the current articles, but IMO it would be much better to create any such category from scratch.

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I was talking about the period 1929-1946, the only period in which this political formation was truly homogeneous on the outside, as a kingdom. And that

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You have much too high a regard for facts. Until you can write a clear dissertation on the facts that make someone a fascist, I will dispute such claims.

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imagine they would need to apply to become a Slovenian citizen. And if it is as you say, why is the main article for the category "Slovenian people" at

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were not countries from shortly after WWI until 1990s. The Yugoslav Communist Party would say that from 1943, they individually became republics of a

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etc.). I repeat, will you also propose abolishing the Austrian categorization for this period? If not, please explain why that case is different. —

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Only the article with this name clearly belongs in this category, the other subcats include LGBT which include topics not related to homosexuality.

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As long as the facts regarding fascism and ruler are found in the underlying articles, then the category is legitimate. Facts do not fail NPOV.

5776:, which was a for a long-defunct program), the potential for future growth in these categories is certainly there. Again, quoting directly from 3815:

Hang on, if you saying that they shouldn't be parented by Yugoslav people of WWII, then where do you think they should be parented? There is no

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These "People by nationality and war" categories should be based on nationality, not ethnicity, which should be dealt with by adding a separate

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you propose to divide the remaining content over two categories, I wonder if sufficient content will be left in each of the two categories.

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Certainly, but other than the Independent State of Croatia, there were no puppet states in Yugoslavia, and this relates only to Yugoslavia.

120: 5206: 5143: 4885: 4866: 4257: 3026: 3022: 6021: 6013: 5147: 5248: 5214: 3850: 2619:, remove people who weren't a fascist ruler from this category. There is no point deleting the category (unless perhaps in the end per 111: 5293: 4881: 4862: 2828: 4535: 6004: 5264: 654: 5223: 3014: 4575: 3816: 5975: 5151: 3118: 3077: 2518: 5231: 4531: 6117: 5983: 5579: 4995: 4774: 4755: 4721: 2334: 169:, reffed to the Oxford Dictionary entries for "society", "societal" and "attitude". (And since when do we cite references on a 5377: 6139: 5878: 5240: 3692: 2836: 2374: 921: 910: 894: 877: 772: 690: 614: 497: 406: 216: 174: 154: 5966: 5669: 5189: 5172: 4218: 3876:, leaving them under the other parents? An explanatory sentence could be added to each category to clarify who is included. 5373: 5256: 4084: 3696: 2326: 5285: 5197: 5180: 2540:

The real problem here isn't the "fascist" label; it whether this ought to exist as a subset of "rulers". There is a huge

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per nom. In previous discussions that I've seen about a "large overall sub-categorization scheme" there was always a

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That isn't really the same thing, they are two completely different words as opposed to just a spelling difference. -

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Yes, I know that sexual orientation is technically an umbrella term for both homosexuality and heterosexuality — but

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nationalities of the world). That is not the case here, so I don't think that the smallcat exception applies here.

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typically involve using catscan to identify articles at the relevant intersection). Note: we already categorize

3374:(regions). Either way, the above listed categories do not correspond to countries that existed during WWII. The 864: 680: 4088: 2740:

A valid subcategory of fascists that can be populated. That a category needs cleanup is no reason for deletion.

4570:, this category will not work. Also, this category should if it ever was kept be part of a larger scheme with 153:. There are two main problems here: the first is that there's not really a clear distinction between this and 4991: 3772: 2503: 872: 743: 630: 602: 6100: 5715: 5385: 5050: 3335: 2607: 2361: 890: 885: 829: 768: 642: 610: 3955:

often did organize along these country lines and because it is fairly natural to speak of them that way. --

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The speedy nomination passed and the proposal above has been updated with the new target category name.

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it to something more LGBT-specific if you feel strongly about that, but since all of its contents are

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Good point! In the defunct category if closed. BTW did you see its subcategories? Many of these fail

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per Gidonb's suggestion. We do not have an article on Radical Islam, this is used as a synonym for

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that region or continent — categorizing by every individual country just leads to category bloat.

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about. So no matter what you may think about how the categories aren't duplicating each other in

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is definitely not a "junior college," it's a prestigious 4-year institution, and a full-fledged

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I'm not against this alternative per se, but as you agree that the category needs to be purged

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

5507:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

5097:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4959:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4817:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4697:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4172:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4047:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3247:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2949:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2792:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1021:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

583:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

456:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

73:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

6165: 6125: 5823: 5770:"unless such categories are part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme". . . 4913: 4897: 4621: 4543: 4448: 4408: 4126: 3150: 2728: 2571: 2554: 2421: 2338: 2330: 968: 950: 516: 2875: 6176: 6143: 6060: 5010: 2546: 2522: 2407: 2390: 410: 3342:. The nationality/country of all the people currently in these categories was Yugoslav. 2701:

After this purging, has the category become in better shape to keep, what do you think?

317:

Again, you're missing my point: no matter what broader application the term may have in

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and purge. I don't quite see the added value of recreating this category from scratch.

3404: 3158: 2322: 693:(we have been phasing out the Euro-centric "Middle East" in favour of WGSRPD regions). 6200:

That some professional wrestling occured at these venues is not defining to the venue.

3175:

through the edit histories a spelling change listed under "clean-up" is pretty common.

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would say Yugoslavia was still organised as it was prior to the 1941 invasion, in

959:

The Arabian Peninsula could be kept as it is a level 2 region. The Middle East is

3500:

is composed, you will see that despite one or two ahistorical subcategories like

6161: 6121: 5819: 4909: 4893: 4617: 4539: 4463: 4444: 4404: 4309: 4266: 4122: 4104: 3527: 3366:(similar to the SSRs/republics of the USSR), but the government-in-exile of the 2724: 2567: 2550: 964: 946: 799: 703: 695: 512: 4194:. I will change the category definition as it is currently quite loaded and POV 4980: 4718: 3669: 3633: 3604: 3563: 3531: 3484: 3479: 3448: 3343: 3049: 2813: 2403: 2386: 1042: 5877:

Just to give one example, it does not make sense to have any subdivisions of

3668:, I don't know, I wasn't involved in naming the article. Check talk pages. — 3460:

Yugoslav was a nationality in WWII, which is what we are talking about here.

5744:

I corrected the current category on the article and updated the nomination.

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Mussolini. Its application to anyone else is highly dubious and contentious.

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