239:(immediately before deletion at CFD); any admin who G4 deletes a page in that situation either needs to be warned for carelessness or needs to be sanctioned for intentional abuse of the tools. For another thing, DRV is for when there's some problem with the relevant XFD; there was no problem with the relevant CFD, as far as I could tell. Thirdly, you dismiss the primary concern with no good reason; with no evidence, there's no reason to listen to your 1) argument. Bots tend to be programmed to pay attention to categories, rather than to templates. Consider the bot's workflow if it's trained to pay attention to en-0: if it's looking for categories, it will load the category first and strikes all the members from its list of folks to visit, while if it's looking for the template, it will to go WhatLinksHere and find the template, which quite plausibly might be on more than one page in someone's userspace (lots of users put userboxes on a subpage that's then transcluded on the main userpage) and thus confuse the bot if the writer hasn't given it additional training. Maybe someone can find me an example, but I can't remember ever seeing an example of a bot doing anything with templates in userspace, aside from removing them when they've been deleted or otherwise doing work on the template itself — using a template as guidance (aside from
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relevant. Also many entries are to be found in that category. It may be that users only appeared because they used the template. But they could also use the category directly. However if users think it is important enough to state incompetence in
English in a template, then it is also fair enough to appear as a category. There is quite a big difference between stating the absence of English ability, and the absence of a statement on English ability. It is the latter that we do not need a category for. The fact that bots or message delivery agents could use it is not the only reason to have it, as after all humans can also make use of the category unassisted. Other languages -0 are not nearly so useful on en.wikipedia, because here the preferred communication language is English. I would suggest a modification to Category:User_en-0, that it is no categorised in Category:User_en which suggest that users can speak English. Some other intesting uses are people like User:Jj98 who use Category:User_en-0 and Category:User_en-1, which by the strict wording means that cannot read English but they can write it a bit.
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if such a system were used, and 3) Was actually discussed prior as a possible use and dismissed (I cannot currently locate this discussion, although I remember a discussion on that or a similar hypothetical use previously and remember concluding that the userbox template would be sufficient. It may have been in one of the other 0-level category discussions or perhaps a talk page discussion). Ultimately in the proposed hypothetical usage of this category were to come to fruition that bots performed some sort of check to see if the user was a non-English speaker or not, that bot could look for the userbox template. The userbox template is much more likely to be used for non-English speakers anyway due to the ease of using the template system on a userpage.
1888:(If it is "online reliable sources", we are saying they are reliable sources which are online. If it is "reliable online sources", we are saying they are online sources which are reliable. As far as Knowledge (XXG)'s needs are concerned, I don't think either is preferable over the other, but this rename is without prejudice to a rename proposal if someone feels that the other name is better.)
313:"However if users think it is important enough to state incompetence in English in a template, then it is also fair enough to appear as a category" - This has to be some of the worst logic I've heard cited for keeping a category in my 11 years on Knowledge (XXG). Using this logic, no user category that had an associated template would ever be deleted. That flies in the face of
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a closure and re-created a category (or any page really, although particularly true for categories where it's hard to imagine the content in said category substantially changing the nature of the category itself) that had different content that didn't actually affect the underlying reasons for deletion.
1701:
again that male category which, in fact, in any case will be deleted ... imho extremely 'de-motivating' for any
Wikignome to support further categoration of overwhelming main categories. Hoping your edits will taking care of these related engineers- and other male-related subcategories, good riddance
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The link to the conversation prior to restore is in fact the trigger for the earlier restore. It would have just as easily been recreated. The reason I think we should keep this, is first of all it is a user category. So the idea that articles should not be classified as to what they are not is not
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if you think the deleting admin should be scolded for their deletion. The two diffs you provide almost certainly qualify as substantially similar - the underlying content being slightly different would be a huge way to game the system to avoid any deletion discussion if someone simply disagreed with
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I believe the concerns brought up in the
Village Pump post reflect a hypothetical use that 1) Has not and will not actually occur, 2) Can be achieved just as easily by the bot searching for the userbox template indicating a user does not speak English without weakening the user category system even
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and basically allows re-creation of every user category ever deleted so long as someone associates it with a template. This would be one of the worst policies we could possibly implement when it comes to user categories. "The fact that bots or message delivery agents could use it is not the only
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was brought up at the village pump, requesting reversal of the old CfD (I would submit that this is an inappropriate venue, and this matter should have been brought to DRV so that more pairs of eyes could have commented). With minimal participation, another administrator (whom I asked to reverse
170:
do. This CfD was unanimous & well-participated, and the rationale behind deletion has not changed in the 9 years since then - user categories that categorize people by something they do not do are still useless and help encourage a culture of useless, encyclopedic categories that dilute the
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Closing, now as a personal comment not accepting that any
Wikimedian may 'treated' in that way again: In fact, being a long-year Wikignome, and from time to time author but not a Wikibuerocat, above mentioned re-categorization, for me is actually a tiny task to categorize these about :
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of such users via the category system is not useful, as it would never be needed to specifically seek out users who do not speak
English for an encyclopedia-improving purpose. What is typically done in this scenario is to leave the userbox alone, but simply remove the category from the
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Do you have any actual evidence that this category has been used for a bot for such a purpose, or is this still merely a hypothetical? It's been over a year since your argument for it to be restored. Furthermore I think you have a misunderstanding of
1020:
a sub-category of your new category, even though you have just agreed above that some members don't belong in your new category. Please stop acting unilaterally and get a consensus first. Otherwise, what was the point of opening a discussion?
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All was well until
February 2015, at which point a user re-created the category without any discussion or new arguments as to why the old CfD was not still valid. Shortly thereafter, another user tagged the category for speedy deletion per
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Signal estimation is a part of statistical signal processing, but is not synonymous with it. Signal estimation is a notable topic, despite not having an article written about it yet. So I'd be inclined to keep the category as it is.
163:
1651:, by the most time-saving way, i.e. by using mass-move with hotcat, was restarted immediately by wiki-individual categorization following that action. Hence, in fact, I categorized within a handful minutes
249:) for editing that doesn't modify the use of that template is something I've never heard of, and even if it does happen, it's much less common (and thus much less likely to be depended on) by bot-writers.
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At this point, I no longer know what I agree or disagree with in this confusion. You made a request, pre-emptively actioned it while the request was still being discussed, withdrew the request in the
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of deleting this category is that it violates multiple long standing, sound precedents, and ultimately is not a category that can be used for improvement of the encyclopedia in any way, violating
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reason to have it, as after all humans can also make use of the category unassisted" - What reason would humans be using this category to specifically seek out non-English speakers?
593:
There are a few people in this category referred to as pioneers (though most are plainly businessmen), but I doubt if these so-called pioneers are suitable to merge to
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for a listing of nominations that have followed similar logic of deleting categories based on categorizing users based on them not doing something (also unanimous).
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usefulness of the category system to actually be used to foster collaboration on improving articles or otherwise providing some benefit to the enyclopedia.
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necessarily need to be balanced by a corresponding male category. In this case, engineering is a historically-male-dominated occupation, so there is a
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to merge them to. So opportunities for merging seem to be limited. Agree that it is subjective and we may well have a further look at the entire tree.
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so the name of this subcategory should include "reliable" to reflect that. Its present name does not reflect exclusion of unreliable online sources.
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in 2007 after the community decided that 0-level categories were not useful to the encyclopedia - it isn't useful to group people by something they
1344:... but I am aware of no suggestion that "male engineers in India" are either a rarity or an encyclopedic topic distinct from "engineers in India".
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delete. It was too long, but I did read it. The guidelines support deletion, and the arguments for overriding these by retaining it are not strong
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a subcategory", which would have implied I created the category, but that's not what you wrote. I made it a subcat per earlier comments of
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argument makes sense. I shouldn't have been impatient, but still in the new situation I do think that nothing further needs to happen.
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per nom. In a male-dominated profession being a female member is notable, but we do not need to split out then men too.
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The original nomination above follows a large nomination that effectively put an end to 0-level categories, see here:
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for a more comprehensive list of discussions that have unanimously resulted in deleting other 0-level categories, and
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hmmm, back to the facts and no further interpretations of that what another
Wikipedian in fact really did by her/his
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If there is consensus to merge this category, I propose to do a group nomination for all the others listed above. --
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Nor is engineering an intrinsically gendered profession, such as acting or most sports, which is why there is no
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The longer version for deleting this category is as follows: First, a brief history. This category was
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their decision and refused, resulting in me bringing this here) decided to restore the category.
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100 wikis, interrupted just for a short while to take dinner, reading that, but in your's sense
575:. I find this whole tree subjective but some of these may take a more careful selective merge.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Apologies for the confusion, I misread your initial comment as "I also see that you have made
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's
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Just posted a notification about this discussion at WikiProject
Statistics and Engineering.
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does this. Grammatically I'm not sure if "reliable online" or "online reliable" is right.
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says, why would anyone want to use this category to see a list of non-English speakers?
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1601:. Since creating this nomination, the category has been depopulated out-of-process (in
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The category summary "online sources deemed to be reliable" and has been included in
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Roland zh to repopulate pending the outcome of this consensus-forming discussion. -
516:-- I would be open to having a split by period, but "pioneers" is too subjective.
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1452:, and for which there is no corresponding "Male fooers" parent category. See e.g.
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per earlier discussion and arguments for keeping the category are not convincing.
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etc (but these categories do not require seperate categories for men and women).
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more clearly and broadly describes the scope of the category, while an article
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I'm really sorry for this, I got too impatient when realizing that the above
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in 2010 and that is exactly the category that I nominated here for renaming.
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per nom. No reason to merge, all articles are somewhere else in the tree of
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
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The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
419:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
67:
The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.
1808:(non-diffusing subcategory) with the women engineers also categorised as
337:. The template is clearly useful, but I see no reason the caategory is.
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of the thread, and then still expect people to follow what is going on.
200:, which was rightly deleted as such. Approximately eight months later,
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Some of these engineers may already be in the by-speciality subcats of
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necessarily need to be balanced by a corresponding male category. --
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Anime and manga/Online reliable sources
1804:: For this and similar largely male occupations, have one category
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I did not create this at all, this is clearly a misunderstanding.
597:(because that's an entirely different topic) and we do not have a
1408:. This nomination arises out of a discussion on my talk page at
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merging all as per the arguments put forward by the nominator.
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User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Category:Indian_women_by_occupation
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has been stable for a decade: that a category of women does
1330:, but the guideline is clear that a category of women does
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Exactly what I said you did, and now you agree you did it.
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are good targets for the single article in the category. --
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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Further investigation shows a raft of similar subcats of
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.
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Category:WikiProject lists of online reliable sources
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by nominator per comments below. (resulting in keep)
1448:, which also appear not to meet the requirements of
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instead, so that this nomination can be regarded as
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Largely pov category, pioneer is a subjective term.
1954:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1876:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1848:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1279:). No further edits should be made to this section.
1251:). No further edits should be made to this section.
909:You're actually right. I created a parent category
803:). No further edits should be made to this section.
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663:). No further edits should be made to this section.
635:). No further edits should be made to this section.
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1646:population of the related sub-categories, mainly
1461:9 categories which appear not to meet WP:CATENDER
235:(at recreation) is significantly different from
950:for instance still fit the renamed category?
8:
1901:Category:WikiProject lists of online sources
1855:Category:WikiProject lists of online sources
352:. I can't see any use for this category; as
1557:Category:Indian male television presenters
1490:Category:Indian male educational theorists
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1548:Category:Indian male television producers
1539:Category:Indian male television directors
688:Category:Uncertainty propagation software
642:Category:Uncertainty propagation software
18:Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion
1419:, which led me to find this category. --
1719:Treat like the women engineers category
1814:Category:19th-century Indian engineers
1155:. If you disagree, I can revert this.
1104:Category:Statistical signal processing
1080:Category:Statistical signal processing
998:Category:Statistical signal processing
911:Category:Statistical signal processing
837:Category:Statistical signal processing
7:
1648:Category:Indian engineers by century
1916:Category:Wikipedia_reliable_sources
1561:Category:Male television presenters
1512:Category:Indian male film directors
1494:Category:Male educational theorists
1472:Category:Indian male choreographers
459:Category:American business pioneers
412:Category:American business pioneers
1552:Category:Male television producers
1543:Category:Male television directors
972:Category:Digital signal processing
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1883:The result of the discussion was:
1640:Knowledge (XXG):Assume good faith
1530:Category:Indian male philosophers
1446:Category:Indian men by occupation
1286:The result of the discussion was:
810:The result of the discussion was:
670:The result of the discussion was:
440:The result of the discussion was:
88:The result of the discussion was:
535:Category:American businesspeople
1806:Category:Indian women engineers
1342:Category:Indian women engineers
1328:Category:Indian women engineers
737:Category:Uncertainty of numbers
692:Category:Uncertainty of numbers
1503:Category:Indian male educators
1481:Category:Indian male designers
1304:Category:Indian male engineers
1258:Category:Indian male engineers
1016:I also see that you have made
712:, currently only one article.
1:
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1498:Category:Male educationists
741:Category:Numerical software
696:Category:Numerical software
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1534:Category:Male philosophers
1146:Category:Signal estimation
1050:Category:Signal estimation
1018:Category:Signal estimation
996:, but not in the proposed
994:Category:Signal estimation
833:Category:Signal estimation
782:Category:Signal estimation
599:Category:Business pioneers
595:Category:American pioneers
573:Category:Pioneers by field
569:Comment/Related Categories
1810:Category:Indian engineers
1377:Category:Indian engineers
1323:This category was created
1308:Category:Indian engineers
946:. Would articles such as
708:to parent categories per
1943:Please do not modify it.
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1837:Please do not modify it.
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792:Please do not modify it.
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652:Please do not modify it.
624:Please do not modify it.
571:We have a whole tree of
422:Please do not modify it.
394:Please do not modify it.
70:Please do not modify it.
1525:Category:Male hoteliers
1507:Category:Male educators
1485:Category:Male designers
1348:Category:Male engineers
1912:Nominator's rationale:
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735:and I agree that both
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495:Nominator's rationale:
164:nominated for deletion
143:Nominator's rationale:
1052:has been created by
514:Merge back to parent
1644:In fact, I started
1078:edit which created
1642:contributions :-(
1340:case for creating
554:Per Marcocapelle.
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1301:Propose merging
1293:Good Ol’factory
1277:deletion review
1266:
1260:
1255:
1249:deletion review
1238:
1041:
948:Window function
857:doesn't exist.
801:deletion review
790:
784:
779:
773:deletion review
762:
685:Propose merging
677:Good Ol’factory
661:deletion review
650:
644:
639:
633:deletion review
622:
461:
457:
447:Good Ol’factory
431:deletion review
420:
414:
409:
403:deletion review
392:
297:Graeme Bartlett
246:
240:
202:this discussion
109:
105:
95:Good Ol’factory
79:deletion review
68:
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15:
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1789:Peterkingiron
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1054:User:Melcombe
1051:
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1044:Spinningspark
1040:
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949:
945:
944:Probably keep
942:
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518:Peterkingiron
515:
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358:Peter coxhead
355:
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82:
80:
76:
71:
65:
64:
59:
54:
44:
41:
39:
33:
32:
23:
19:
1942:
1939:
1911:
1897:
1885:
1882:
1864:
1861:
1836:
1833:
1801:
1784:
1767:
1740:
1737:WP:CATGENDER
1718:
1698:
1645:
1599:Depopulation
1598:
1450:WP:CATGENDER
1441:
1405:
1372:
1335:
1331:
1319:WP:CATGENDER
1314:
1300:
1288:
1285:
1267:
1264:
1239:
1236:
1203:Marcocapelle
1198:
1184:
1179:
1174:
1157:Marcocapelle
1148:
1131:
1126:
1108:Marcocapelle
1089:
1084:
1058:Marcocapelle
1028:
1023:
1007:
1002:
976:Marcocapelle
957:
952:
943:
925:Marcocapelle
919:— Preceding
914:
887:
875:Marcocapelle
859:Marcocapelle
846:
843:
829:
812:
809:
791:
788:
763:
760:
728:
714:Marcocapelle
705:
702:
684:
672:
669:
651:
648:
623:
620:
603:Marcocapelle
568:
551:
539:Marcocapelle
530:
513:
494:
454:
442:
439:
421:
418:
393:
390:
375:Marcocapelle
370:
349:
334:
291:
237:this content
233:this content
228:
224:
207:
194:
173:
167:
161:
154:
146:
142:
102:
90:
87:
69:
66:
1772:Shyamsunder
1603:these edits
1559:... but no
1550:... but no
1541:... but no
1532:... but no
1523:... but no
1514:... but no
1505:... but no
1492:... but no
1483:... but no
1474:... but no
1337:prima facie
893:Mark viking
745:Mark viking
733:WP:SMALLCAT
710:WP:SMALLCAT
55:November 18
43:November 19
38:November 17
1748:HairedGirl
1617:HairedGirl
1579:HairedGirl
1424:HairedGirl
1384:HairedGirl
1355:HairedGirl
342:Od Mishehu
315:WP:USERCAT
151:WP:USERCAT
1948:talk page
1870:talk page
1842:talk page
1704:Roland zh
1699:populated
1415:permalink
1326:to match
1273:talk page
1245:talk page
915:withdrawn
813:Withdrawn
797:talk page
769:talk page
657:talk page
629:talk page
537:already.
427:talk page
399:talk page
339:עוד מישהו
270:WP:CSD#G4
198:WP:CSD#G4
183:See also
75:talk page
1950:or in a
1872:or in a
1844:or in a
1756:contribs
1625:contribs
1587:contribs
1432:contribs
1392:contribs
1363:contribs
1275:or in a
1247:or in a
1180:Spinning
1127:Spinning
1085:Spinning
1024:Spinning
1003:Spinning
953:Spinning
933:contribs
921:unsigned
817:VegaDark
799:or in a
771:or in a
659:or in a
631:or in a
499:Idenitor
429:or in a
401:or in a
354:VegaDark
320:VegaDark
275:VegaDark
211:VegaDark
158:userbox.
155:grouping
77:or in a
20: |
1886:rename.
1818:Hugo999
1768:Support
1723:Nyttend
729:Support
706:upmerge
472:history
251:Nyttend
229:reposts
120:history
1752:(talk)
1621:(talk)
1583:(talk)
1428:(talk)
1388:(talk)
1359:(talk)
1175:middle
847:rename
552:Delete
531:Delete
443:delete
371:Delete
350:Delete
335:Delete
244:nobots
231:, and
168:do not
1924:Ranze
1785:Merge
1746:Brown
1693:etc.
1615:Brown
1577:Brown
1442:Note2
1422:Brown
1382:Brown
1353:Brown
1289:merge
1185:Spark
1132:Spark
1090:Spark
1029:Spark
1008:Spark
958:Spark
673:merge
480:watch
476:links
147:tl;dr
128:watch
124:links
46:: -->
16:<
1928:talk
1822:talk
1812:and
1793:talk
1776:talk
1727:talk
1708:talk
1406:Note
1317:per
1207:talk
1199:keep
1161:talk
1112:talk
1076:this
1062:talk
980:talk
929:talk
897:talk
888:Keep
879:talk
863:talk
821:talk
749:talk
739:and
731:per
718:talk
694:and
607:talk
581:talk
560:talk
543:talk
522:talk
503:talk
484:logs
468:talk
464:edit
379:talk
362:talk
324:talk
301:talk
292:Keep
279:talk
255:talk
225:Keep
215:talk
189:here
185:here
145:The
132:logs
116:talk
112:edit
35:<
1903:to
1754:• (
1741:not
1696:-->
1623:• (
1585:• (
1496:or
1430:• (
1390:• (
1361:• (
1332:not
1306:to
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690:to
22:Log
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1690:,
1687:,
1684:,
1681:,
1678:,
1675:,
1672:,
1669:,
1666:,
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1660:,
1657:,
1654:,
1373:PS
1350:.
1291:.
1209:)
1163:)
1149:as
1114:)
1106:.
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982:)
935:)
931:•
917:.
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891:--
881:)
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823:)
751:)
720:)
675:.
609:)
583:)
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545:)
524:)
505:)
482:|
478:|
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445:.
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257:)
247:}}
241:{{
217:)
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126:|
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Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.