Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2017 February 8

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counters and self appointed guardians of a dreary the soul-less compendium that this project was never intended to be. The thing about crowd sourcing is that it gathers together people of all types and backgrounds, who seek to find within the masses shared points of reference. About six people might wish I would come back, and are not afraid of sharing that view. Probably very many more wish that Terry Pratchett would come back, and might like to add something to that effect on their userpage (remember, these categories only exist within the admin side of the space and are unlikely to be seen by users of the encyclopedia). However, such examples of humanity are anathema to the joyless minions of blandness - as exampled by the proposer and sycophants.

4840:. To argue that they do "not help foster encyclopedic collaboration" or are "not useful for fostering cooperation" misses the point completely. And if they are "joke categories", a term used as a reason to delete, what's wrong with a joke? We need humor sometimes, working on Knowledge (XXG) can be unpleasant at times. Another reason given for deletion is just plain wrong: "no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia." That's a subjective observation. Others may look at the category and say "Those editors might be interesting, I may want to work with them." 2734:. To argue that they do "not help foster encyclopedic collaboration" or are "not useful for fostering cooperation" misses the point completely. And if they are "joke categories", a term used as a reason to delete, what's wrong with a joke? We need humor sometimes, working on Knowledge (XXG) can be unpleasant at times. Another reason given for deletion is just plain wrong: "no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia." That's a subjective observation. Others may look at the category and say "Those editors might be interesting, I may want to work with them." 2295:. To argue that they do "not help foster encyclopedic collaboration" or are "not useful for fostering cooperation" misses the point completely. And if they are "joke categories", a term used as a reason to delete, what's wrong with a joke? We need humor sometimes, working on Knowledge (XXG) can be unpleasant at times. Another reason given for deletion is just plain wrong: "no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia." That's a subjective observation. Others may look at the category and say "Those editors might be interesting, I may want to work with them." 353: 865:. "Constitution of Ireland" is the common and recognised name of the constitution under consideration. Although in theory it is capable of confusion with a set of laws and principles sometimes referred to by jurists as the "constitution of Northern Ireland", in practice nobody is going to think that "Constitution of Ireland" refers to Northern Ireland. The rename proposal is a solution looking for a problem. 1116:. Since there is no substantive reason to prefer one version or the other in many (most?) countries, all we do is achieve consistency at a particular level. But how far do we take this? If we follow it through, then the categories for organiations in a particular country are sychronied with the personal choice of whoever created 401:, so that the article is correctly named, though the name might be misleading. BHG is Irish, so better qualified than me (as an Englishman) to know the sensitivities of this. I would suggest that the category should be renamed per nom, but the articles should not be. A headnote should be provided setting out this issue. 3640:

comprehensive encyclopedia. This is realised by participation in a project, which attempts to mould a disparate group with differing capabilities and personalities into a cohesive functioning editing unit. As such, the whims and fancies of any section which contributes to the greater enterprise should

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consensus, not the consensus of those who already self-selected to be in the category, which is not representative of the community as a whole. I would suggest that random CfDers who happen upon this nomination is far more representative of such consensus (not to mention those particularly interested

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and the work he did for our encyclopedia ought to be able to find editors with the same view – the potential for interaction and collaboration with empathetic colleagues is worth a lot here. Having categories such as this helps build a spirit among like-minded editors, and petty bureaucrats who can't

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It is for such pendantic arseholery that LHvU cannot gather the enthusiasm to return. People who live in the real world understand that shared foolishness fosters feelings of companionablism (damn you spellcheck) and shared experience - which is most useful when faced with the cloying baggage of bean

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in that this category does not help foster encyclopedic collaboration. In other words, there is no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia. I don't know what LHvU is, but it's completely irrelevant

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On the contrary, category names should make it abundantly clear what they are for. I was guessing this was an abbreviation for a TV show or something when I nominated it, which is a good reason for a rename at minimum. The fact that it's about a user doesn't change the rationale for deletion in the

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In that case I oppose deletion. It will achieve nothing useful if the categories stay as red links on the user pages - and the users don't even know that there is a discussion. When we discuss articles we notify those who are involved. This category may not be very helpful, but it isn't intended

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Oh I love being flattered, only two days after Valentine's Day. LHvU, your absence is indeed regretted and your presence remembered, but even more than that, the category expresses a certain regret, IMO, about the changing nature of Knowledge (XXG) and its increasingly formalist atmosphere. Nice to

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This series of retreats has all been made by LL without any acknowledgement of error, which is what would be expected from someone arguing in good faith. It all gives a very strong impression of a WP:IDONTLIKEIT view being defended with whatever argument might be come to hand (for as long as it can

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There is no need for disambiguation. It's not like there are other political entities on the island of Ireland that also happen to have constitutions. There is currently only one such entity with a constitution and that constitution, in the English language, is called the "Constitution of Ireland".

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in that this category does not help foster encyclopedic collaboration. In other words, there is no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia. Categorize those who "remember" anything, let alone a

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in that this category does not help foster encyclopedic collaboration. In other words, there is no reason to group users in this category & to seek out such users for any reason that can be reasonably expected to improve the encyclopedia. It does not help improve content by grouping together

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Does BHG mean the sundry statutes and treaties (St Andrews Agreement, Government of Ireland Act 1920 etc) that form part of what may be loosely termed the constitution as it applies to Northern Ireland? If so, then I'm happy to inform her that many currently sit quite happily in their own category

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To be clear, I would support deletion of literally any category beginning with the title "Wikipedians who wish" which is why I suggest this is not personal. This is an unencyclopedic naming convention plain on its face. People are drawing on their emotions about wanting this user to come back in

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I'm aware that there is a view that the UK has a system of common and statute laws that is sometimes collectively characterised as an unwritten constitution. That is not the point here. The point is that Northern Ireland does not have a thing called constitution, written or otherwise. If Northern

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contains articles about Bavaria etc, as you would expect. The number of articles about the constitution, written or otherwise, of Northern Ireland in the nominated categories is zero. Am I to take it that you wish to re-purpose the nominated categories to cater for articles that do not currently

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Unwarranted? I am insulted that you should think that people may not express the wish I might come back... have I done something that forbids such an expression, that I should never return to the project? I will make something clear; the community is at pains to create a neutral informative and

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If the nom wishes to create a new category to cater for the pot pourri that might be grandly labelled as a constitution in / of / for / by Northern Ireland, she should go ahead and do it. Such an action has nothing to do with the current nomination. As every editor has made clear regarding the

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somehow for consistency. Local sensitivities indicate that Austrian and of Austria should only apply to state organisations; this the Bible Society has to be the "Bible Society in Austria". Possibly someone who know more German than I do can check how the German WP handles the question.

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Not really. The sources are in agreement that if NI has a thing called a constitution, then it is merely as a subordinate part of a larger political entity that also may be described as having a constitution, namely the UK. One of the sources, A.G. Donaldson, has this helpful definition:

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so your position on the CfD is more likely to be the outcome of the debate, which I hope the closing admin takes into account if necessary, as this category clearly violates policy and "It will leave a redlink behind on userpages" is not a legitimate reason to support keeping something.

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Quoting from WP:IMOS: "Use "Ireland" for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. In such circumstances use "Republic of Ireland" (e.g. "Strabane is at the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland").". If

297:“In this article the term is used with the meaning it has for the constitutional lawyer wishing to refer to the existence within the United Kingdom of a subordinate legislature and executive, and a separate judiciary; alternatively, the phrase denotes the Government of Ireland Act, 1920” 2150:

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Ireland has a constitution at all, then that constitution is called the Constitution of the United Kingdom. It is most unlikely that such a thing would be confused with the well-known written document that is the Constitution of Ireland. So no need for disambiguation then.

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Next they'll be telling us userboxes can't be funny (actually, I personally seldom find them funny, but that's not the point). Look at the other categories being nominated for deletion right here on this page -- we've got someone on a crusade. 15:43, 16 February 2017

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Do you understand that this IS very personal? We hear far to little from this user, and many others I miss, miss daily. I don't understand why we have to delete this little expression of personal appreciation. If it's against policy, how about changing such policy.

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for users to express their wish for you to come back with me wanting to stifle their wish for you to come back. I don't care if they do it in userspace. I care that this is an unencyclopedic category bleeding in to category space. You need to tone it down here.

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Wow, the attacks above are unwarranted. "Useless:VegaDark"? I'm somehow being a wet blanket for wanting a user category to comply with our guideline on the issue? Fuck me, right? None of the above keeps have a basis in policy and a "who wish" naming convention

3691:. I think this is a slightly over-pedantic and over-literal attempt to implement user category policy. Categories like this that allow a little friendly interaction do indeed help foster collaboration by helping create a happier environment in which to work. 3116:

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Ireland is the island, which lacks a constitution; the Republic of Ireland has a constitution, and whether or not Northern Ireland has one, we don't just name categories to an ambiguous name because we expect users to know of what we speak. E.g., we have

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1777:. Additionally I agree with the nominator that, even if this were unequivocally a collaboration-oriented category that fell in line with policy, the scope of content that such users in this category could reasonably be expected to collaborate on is 397:-- This is a difficult one. Until the Good Friday Agreement, the RoI government and constitution claimed jurisdiction over the whole Island, though it only had de facto jurisdiction over the 26 counties. No doubt the Constitution calls itself the 3644:

be stifled or reduced. Do you believe that Albert Einstein would have been a greater genius if he had endeavoured to have his hair better managed? Seriously, people write this magnificent encyclopedia because of pride in knowledge and that it is

1592:, but it seemed a bit dodgy to do that, because I had created these 3 while the previous CFD was still open and had neglected to add them to that listing. If others want to speedy them, that's fine by me, but I didn't want to presume it was OK. 2116: 3832:

I find it hard to believe all this. These categories do foster collaboration and are in line with guidelines. If they are funny, so what? Isn't doing serious work here gloomy enough at times? A little light-heartedness goes a long way.

3272:, but then some keep !voters pointed out that a category intended to encourage the return of an esteemed contributor was about as strong an expression of collaboration as you could find ... and encouraging collaboration is the core of 2356:. By humorously describing common reactions to Wikipedians' edits, and asserting the intention to continue making edits that benefit the encyclopedia regardless of those reactions, this does indeed foster encyclopedic collaboration. — 3434:? And I would argue that this does, indeed, foster collaboration, if only because it unites us in our yearning for a more innocent past when we all sat down, smoked the herb together, and wrote up a ton of articles. In other words, 2107: 3514:

What I remember best is me really not knowing very well what to do or where to go, and you being the perfect gentleman in helping me get around and making me feel part of something. Yeah yeah NOTSOCIALNETWORK and all!

2236: 4654:. Several of the !votes were based on a defence of this category as a joke, but the guideline is very clear that joke categories are inappropriate, and the networking arguments run counter to long-standing policy at 2572:. Several of the !votes were based on a defence of this category as a joke, but the guideline is very clear that joke categories are inappropriate, and the networking arguments run counter to long-standing policy at 300:

It would be helpful if you could point to any of the articles currently contained in the categories nominated that deal in any substantive way with the legislature, executive or judiciary of Northern Ireland.

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if a Wikipedian wishes to have such a notice, they may edit their user page and add the notice in some other way (such as by adding text or a userbox), rather than inappropriately creating a category grouping

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Editors created this category in order to use it. Deleting it does nothing to improve the project and stifles editors from expressing views about things pertinent to the project, discouraging participation.

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Well, we might have done in that bar in Washington, but my memory is hazy. You remember: the "Pedantic Bar" where they ID'd me to make sure I was over 18? Seems ironically appropriate for this thread. --

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Article makes it clear it about the Republic of Ireland and title is a direct translation from English. Perfectly appropriate. Plus Northern Ireland does not have a constitution. No confusion at all.

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overly narrow. I say likely based on the fact that it isn't abundantly clear what series of novels this actually refers to. I didn't have much luck determining what it referred to after reviewing

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is right that English or American spelling is likely to be arbitrarily assigned to countries without a strong English or American connection but I don't see any objective solution to that problem.

1585: 2253: 1774: 42: 37: 3268:. The arguments for deletion were well-founded in policy, but they were way outnumbered by a significant majority of editors favouring retention. Many of those arguments were variants of 3322: 2373:. Fosters collaboration. Humour helps keep us sane, helps retain stable editors who have a sense of humour, and helps retain productive editors. Like it so much, I'm adding myself. - 778: 3760:- Doesn't seem to be what the project is for. "I'll add this faux category to show my support" is like thinking that re-tweeting apolitical meme will actually accomplish something. 574:

Ah, we're getting somewhere at last. LL is slowly starting to accept that NI does have a constitution, albeit not as a single codified document, and that it needs to be categorised.

1253: 3357:- "Wikipedians who wish" for anything is not a category naming scheme that supports collaboration. We should not be categorizing users based on things they wish for or against. 3815:

recognise that aren't doing Knowledge (XXG) any favours by trying to remove them. @LHvU: great to hear from you again: I'm only sorry it's under such crappy circumstances. --

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hear from you again; on behalf of Knowledge (XXG), thanks for your service. For the record: I have never actually smoked any herb with LHvU or any other Wikipedian. I think.

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has no use at all for collaboration. Knowledge (XXG) does not have a purpose to provide humorous diversions to the users by cluttering up category space with joke categories.

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No, I didn't. The fist comment was made at speedy, and copied here. Speedy discussions are usually collapsed, and not counted as part of the substantive CFD discussion. --

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Common sense and psychology are quite clear that people are more likely to collaborate with others who share their views, interests and qualities. These categories help

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Common sense and psychology are quite clear that people are more likely to collaborate with others who share their views, interests and qualities. These categories help

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Common sense and psychology are quite clear that people are more likely to collaborate with others who share their views, interests and qualities. These categories help

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I am sure that the closing admin will have little difficulty in distinguishing between arguments founded in Knowledge (XXG) policies and guidelines, and those based

2622: 670:. There is no ambiguity, there is only one Constitution of Ireland, irrespective of the status of Northern Ireland. The Anglo-Irish Agreement is not a constitution. 5133: 456:

The confusion arises from the fact that Norniron's constitution is not a single document. However, a constitution doesn't have to be codified in one document: see

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exist. The discussion would be more productive if LL would note what has already been posted, rather than repeating a point which has already been disproven. --

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omits several key parts of the constitution of Norniron, such as the Good Friday Agreement, because they are not laws. That is why we need a broader category

4131:, notifying all the category members is reaching out to the small corner of the community most likely to support keeping the category. We should be polling 2476:

All of the keep !votes advocate using social networking features on en.wp because they like it, which is specifically deprecated in the long-standing policy

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When there are enough distinct articles related to the musician that could warrant such a category, it can be recreated. Otherwise, numerous precedent and

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was written in 1955 (62 years ago), since when there has been a raft of further developments in the constitution of NI. Y'see there was this thing called

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as a category that groups users by advocacy of a position. Users who are serious about actually collaborating on improving content can create and join

132: 21: 3582:. As I fully admitted I had no idea what this stood for (another reason supporting deletion) it's very odd several of you are taking this so personal. 3090: 2873: 4446: 1329: 1012: 1008: 963: 959: 941: 3082: 1096: 1016: 977: 491: 4650:. Closers are obliged to weigh arguments rather than just count votes, and those opposing deletion run counter to the long-standing guideline at 3468:

In response to Doctor Dreamie, above. In my time as Admin and Oversighter I do not recall Useless:VegaDark... I feel I had the best of the deal.

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categorize users by, but it is quite clear that whatever it is won't help improve the encyclopedia by grouping users in said categorization.

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I think we have established the pro-encyclopaedic value of this expression in another place :) this should be considered the rubber-stamp.

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LL, you start from an axiomatic view that a sub-national entity cannot have a constitution. That is demonstrably false: we have a whole

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There's no genuine harm of having such a category. Contrary to the nom, I don't see how this harms encyclopedic collaboration at all.

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since we don't write from our memories, remembering the 1970s gives no greater weight to such a user's contributions than otherwise.

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The tree needs cleaning up which I was thinking of doing after this nomination is decided, as there some alternatives in use such as

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a constitution of Northern Ireland. The personal views of editors are interesting, but Knowledge (XXG) relies on reliable sources. --

5147:, this single-parent, 3-item category is no longer needed. It is not part of any wider series, so can be merged to its sole parent. 5397:: This would be more in line with the other categories, which also follow "Works about..." , rather than "Works relating to..." - 1715: 1379: 5387: 4689: 4119: 1929: 1117: 119: 1937: 581: 1299: 343: 5383: 4018: 2456:

Bullshit. Every single keep !vote except the one from Calton gives a specific reason that has nothing to do with liking it.

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IMOS supports the renaming. Both parts of Ireland have a constitution, so they need to be differentiated. The head article

709:. It is interesting to see a number of !voters denying ambiguity, despite the scholarly evidence presented above that there 95: 576:

However, it's a pity that LL has still not spotted that many of the components of the constitution of NI are not laws. So

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or the nom wants to re-write the IMOS, suggest that they try to get consensus there. Until then, please respect the IMOS.

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Wikipedians who happen to donate blood plasma. Additionally, this uses the incorrect "users" instead of "Wikipedians."

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is also proposing? Sport is not inherently "of" the country, it is "in" the country. Mountains are "of" the country.

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as a joke. If you don't notify them I will. This way of proceeding is dishonest and makes a bad situation worse.

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have a constitution. See the discussion above, with links to many scholarly sources. Or try a few books such as

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There might be a case for changing the convention, but not for creating a single exception to the convention. --

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but creating a category for cultural depictions and moving some of the content there might be a good idea.

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BTW, it's remiss of the nominator not to have informed the Ireland wikiproject as a matter of courtesy.

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Have you no sense of humor? And of course "shared foolishness" can help to "improve the encyclopedia"

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From what I can tell, this serves more political than encyclopedic purposes. There are also potential

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Have you no sense of humor? And of course "shared foolishness" can help to "improve the encyclopedia"

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Have you no sense of humor? And of course "shared foolishness" can help to "improve the encyclopedia"

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Have you no sense of humor? And of course "shared foolishness" can help to "improve the encyclopedia"

5288: 5176: 5148: 4659: 4658:. So I attach little wight to those arguments, and as a result I find a clear consensus to delete. -- 4407: 4280: 4225: 4185: 4115: 3555:, and VegaDark, can you please find something useful to do that doesn't involve being a wet blanket? 3283: 3043: 2834: 2583: 2481: 2431: 2402: 1593: 1353: 1278: 1223: 1222:

No, it wasn't. I have have now put the speedy discussion in a collapsed section, in the usual way. --

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Then we had LL's claim that it's not a constitution unless it's a single document with that title.

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relation to this category, when I went in to this without a clue this was even referencing a user.

2576:. So I attach little wight to those arguments, and as a result I find a clear consensus to delete. 2390: 5431: 4767: 4738: 4532: 4486: 4207: 4141: 4094: 3871: 3744: 3673: 3628: 3587: 3362: 3159: 3130: 2950: 2921: 2670: 2374: 2260: 2223: 2185: 2156: 1998: 1969: 1807: 1794: 1428: 1404: 1311: 873: 809: 742: 636: 557: 496: 402: 305: 250: 187: 100:. More specifically there is no agreement on whether or not Northern Ireland has a constitution. 1589: 322:, into which Northern Ireland will fit. If you wanted sources, try a few JSTOR searches such as 2237:

Knowledge (XXG):Arguments_to_avoid_in_deletion_discussions#'''Keep'''. too funny to be deleted.

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That narrow view of what is a constitution is unsupported by reliable sources. See the article

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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said - policy should be changed. Camaraderie and community are badly lacking around here, and

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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to clarify that this relates to sport, rather than to non-sporting activities such such a

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Most of your reply is pure OR, inverting Donaldson's words from an assertion that here is

3706:"I fully admitted I had no idea what this stood for (another reason supporting deletion)" 2967: 4157: 3949: 3562: 1387: 1261: 1023: 985: 426: 3806:- Contrary to the nom's assertion, this category is not contrary to the guidelines at 867:

Note: I was brought here by Laurel Lodged's post at the WikiProject Ireland talk page.

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Category:Organisations based in the Caribbean part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands

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Category:Wikipedians interested in collaborating on topics related to unemployment

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on this. A new appropriate category will be started in the future as recommended

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to contain various articles and subcats for constitutional laws and referendums.

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BTW, I'm still waiting for the nom to make a courtesy call to the Ireland Project

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First we have LL's claim that a non-sovereign territory cannot a constitution.

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Northern Ireland does not have a thing called constitution, written or otherwise

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be sustained), rather than an honest effort to follow the scholarly sources. --

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Then we have the claim that it's not a constitution, just constitutional laws.

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So the result is a clear consensus to keep this category. And welcome back,

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to British English, so no reason to impose British spelling. I will create a

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