Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 May 3

2029:. 2) "Fossils of ..." may contain fossil animal species but also fossil plants, so are not "essentially the same category", a certain overlap is inevitable. 3) I have been working hard to rearrange and recategorize the "Prehistoric animals of ..." category into the deeper sections per period, e.g. "Triassic animals of ...", and even organize the articles further for animals that are restricted to a certain time period, e.g. "Trilobites of ..." for trilobites instead of "Paleozoic animals of ...". 4) Categories are essential and good tools to list all the elements of a certain group, in this case "Fossils" of a specific country, "Russia". If one wants to have a good overview of the different fossils found in Russia, it doesn't make sense to look under all the different subcategories of "Triassic animals of ...", "Prehistoric plants of ..." and "Cretaceous animals of ..." and try to get an overview on the fossils found in a country. 4781:"We don't do this for any other composer" is a bad rational. If its needed, it should be done on the need basis. India is the country with multiple languages and Indian composers often compose in varied languages. The films mainly consists of the songs in the specific language unlike Hollywood movies where the Original Score has more significance.The total number of films scored by composer is significant here. I think renaming them as per Fayenatic's proposal is the best idea. - 4810:. You are correct India is a large country with multiple languages and films have been split up accordingly (including dubbed from one language to another). That is great but we are not discussing that here, we are discussing whether a composer (i.e. the music man) should have his works artificially separated because on the language spoken in the film. This is no benefit to people interested in the works of A R Rahman, in fact it diminishes Rahman's work. -- 5452:

subject or by country, I take it because it is impossible to say that any organisation other than government agencies, don't belong in it. This leaves a miscellaneous collection of sub-categories, four of which relate to conflicts in the Middle East. I don't know if these are helpful. Meanwhile, if we don't do something to stop it, the main category is filling up with articles about individual organisations.

2825:, the latter being part of the social movement but not part of the Catholic Church. Catholic universities also belong to the Catholic movement, they are usually not governed by the Catholic Church so the broader adjective Catholic is perfectly fine. I can't see what Roman would add here, as I've never heard anyone referring to the movement as 5427:. I don't really see how the above linked discussions and the nominator's rationale can be treated as uncontested if we continue to maintain that category. I find it hard to make an assessment when it's unclear to me if there is a separate reason to maintain the parent category but not topical subcategories. 5451:

A negative definition for organisations is pretty unhelpful. Most organisations are non-governmental. The term works within the context in which it was produced - which was international development. But it has been agreed, twice, that it is unsuitable as a category for individual organisations by

2024:

1) The category "extinct animals of ..." is reserved for animals that got extinct in historical times, so when we know they were alive but also have seen them disappear. Generally the 10,000 BP Holocene mark is a good boundary, as Peterkingiron says and Plantdrew and also Marcocapelle have noted. The

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career than NPOL as a mayor. Daly City is a "council-manager" city, which means the mayors are selected internally among the city councillors and serve ceremonially for a year, but have no actual executive authority. So it's not a city whose mayors pass NPOL just for being mayors per se — which means

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is diffused by centuries, years, countries and a few cities, but there is no other intersection of period and country. If we would want to start that here, it would probably make more sense to create intersections by century, to keep in line with the existing century structure, rather than taking an

5436:

Agree with the procedural oppose. I'm only looking at the previous discussions right now and it is really odd that big parts of the tree have been deleted two years ago but the remnants of the tree including its top category still exist. We should make an explicit decision whether or not to cut the

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to merge/rename subject based NGO categories. but to "Keep a number of possibly more controversial subcategories for now." I entirely agree that the distinction between state-backed anti-corruption agencies and anti-corruption non-governmental organizations is important and should be retained,

5109:, who has participated in this discussion, so no further notification is necessary. I have therefore struck my !vote. On closer examination, the 26 sub-divided categories that I mentioned above are not all divided by language; some are divided by decade, so they would need a separate discussion. – 3067:

Not only the various uses of "catholic" as outlined above render the term ambiguous as an adjective, but the use of "catholic" as a an adjective meaning either affiliated with one of the "catholic" churches or just aligned with the university's view of what principles of the "catholic" faith,

3545:

Except these are categories containing film articles, not soundtrack articles. If they were soundtrack articles, I'd be inclined to agree, but the soundtrack composer is not the creator of the film, which is what the subject of the article is. Or rather, the nationality of the composer is

4921:

Now, when this has been reopened after the discussion on the talk page of the non-admin, we would need an absolute consensus to have this moved, with more than 7-10 votes at least in favour. Unless, it would not be a fair deal. Let more people get involved and opine with clear opinion. -

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Well, since the ones in opposition are in minority, you are asked for convincing examples, please, that could relativise the references to consistency in the above proposal. Could you name at least one university that self-styles as "Catholic" but has no affiliation with the

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In the US, many of the "Catholic universities" are governed by organs of the Roman Catholic Church, typically various religious orders (Jesuits, the Congregation of Holy Cross, Religious of the Sacred Heart of Mary, Sisters of St. Joseph of Orange, and others).

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would be a centralized discussion esp if properly notified. As to the ambiguity, I find your explanation v odd. The ambiguity issue is not whether "Catholic" could be used an alternative name for those other denominations, but whether the term "Catholic"

371:-- These three categories contain a total of four articles, in contrast with 15 Francoist demolitions. If we wanted to (and there is scope to populate better), we might have a category for pre-Francoist Spain, but I doubt it is worth it. 3288:. Note that SMALLCAT specifically applies to categories "with no potential for growth". Spain still exists, as does the motion picture industry, so there is ample potential for growth. And since nomination, 15 subcats have been added. 4736:

per nomination. The contribution by A. R. Rahman remains music, NOT words, national or cultural identity. It is a disservice to the works of A R Rahman to separate that way. This !vote applies to any other separated in a similar way.

4638:), and categories for articles about soundtracks should take the format "X soundtracks", so firstly these are wrongly named. However, there is no need to separate the films by language. We don't do this for any other composer, 3594:

I think I'm on the fence with this one. I guess that's why I nominated to rename with a question mark over the validity. I certainly think this is a more valid hierarchy than the ones I've nominated for upmerging below.

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There have been no substantive arguments for retaining the existing titling, size is not relevant, the language spoken in a film does not affect the music or the composer one iota. Why would anybody actually need such a

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The very valid point made by Vivvt above that, “Most of the lyricists' work in a single language and not multiple like composers” confirms composers work in music not languages. By that alone we have proof that this

2544:. In the discussion over that name the claims of so called ambiguity were rejected in favor of the very clear precedent and rules of common name. Those who seek to claim ambiguity ignore the reality of English usage. 2877:

when it takes a whole para of complex reasoning about subtle distinctions and institutional structures to explain why there is no ambiguity ... then I think you have made the opposite point to what you intended.

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as (i) there is consensus here apart from the category's creator, and there are adequate replies to his objections; and (ii) no other admins seem to be active at CFD at the moment, leaving a 2-month backlog. –

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I see what you mean but are you sure you're not misattributing a physical organisational bounderies definition that ultimately neither the Catholic Church nor its adherents are expected to do even themselves?

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as an institution within that movement. A category concerning the Catholic Church should have Catholic Church in the name, and otherwise it is part of the broader Catholic movement. For example in the tree of

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which although in full communion with Rome, now, have a quite different liturgy, tradition, and history and apparently eschew the label of "Roman". And there is the category tree under the above-mentioned

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Normally I would suggest re-listing, expanding the nomination to include all composers whose film scores are subdivided by language. However, it does appear that all those categories were created by

2615:, which apparently is not in full communion with Rome. Given the diversity of use of the term "Catholic"; this discussion should be centralized to harmonize the naming of articles and categories. 4262: 2988:...." This is all about Catholic identity and not about Catholic Church. Even if you declare yourself loyal to, it means you are not part of. The university is not part of the Catholic Church. 4030:

I misunderstood and am not an expert here. However, if the soundtrack is purely instrumental, its language should be irrelevant, but if it involves song, language is surely highly relevant.

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Part of the distinction will be lost. State anti-corruption agencies are a type of anti-corruption organization, but they are not a type of anti-corruption non-governmental organization. --

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and wikipedia shouldn't be arbitrating that issue amongst religious beliefs. The use of Roman in these articles communicates more specifically the article, list and category content.

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Bringing all them under one umbrella is going to be a huge mess, especially for Indian films where there are minimum dozen of languages and more than 200 films produced in a year. -

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Although the nom is says rename, it is technically a merge. At the moment the nom, 2 !votes, and a further "avoid overcategorisation" support the nom. That leaves the creator and

5367: 4435:, unless those are also deleted per the discussion above. On the other hand, if they are not merged, then the last one should be renamed as "English-language..." for clarity. – 5363: 2337: 1752:

as per nominator's rationale; no need to have two conventions for categories. In the article body, we can of course continue referring to the ships as "Clyde-built ships" etc.

913: 128: 5127: 656: 535: 3962:-- The language used in the film dialogue is probably one of its most defining characteristics. I am not sure whether we need a separate "soundtracks" tree, but if we do 2325: 262:, but for the most par I agree. The history of 20th-century Spain is messy, but grouping all the destructions into a single century category wouldn't be too unreasonable. 42: 37: 2300: 3574: 2573:

Adding a sub-category to the nomination. These two seem to be isolated hold-outs, as their other parents and sub-categories have already been renamed without "Roman".

1642:-built ships" and nominated them for speedy renaming. However I later noticed that while the 4 countries of the UK plus the English counties all use "Ships built in 3232: 5270:. The distinction between state-backed anti-corruption agencies and anti-corruption non-governmental organizations is an important one which should be retained. -- 140: 3454: 2007:-- I would suggest we draw a line at the end of the last Ice Age, about 10,000 BC. If the extinction was earlier, it is a fossil; if later and extinct animal. 197: 1321: 259: 170: 436: 144: 132: 117: 877:

routinely check the categories to see if they've been depopulated below the SMALLCAT threshold as part of the article deletion process, the category will get

3450: 317: 228: 3785:. When I pinged Peterkingiron and Richhoncho, I was hoping that one might change his vote, leading to a consensus, but both withdrew their votes instead. – 2276:. I suggest someone re-nominates both sets together with options A (Catholic)/B (Roman Catholic), as one group or the other ought to be renamed to match. – 193: 3489: 2984:

as one of its main goals. The University was named one of North America's 21 Catholic colleges and universities which most faithfully live their Catholic

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I am not objecting to the change, but there should not be a consequential change to British categories, where the omission of "Roman" would be ambiguous.

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All the subdivided ‘Films scored by’ that have been separated like this have been done by Vivvt and nobody else, and all done within the past few months.

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Rahman's work has been majorly identified for his language specific songs. A quick look at some of the jukeboxes uploaded by some official channels like

3860: 3713:-- Most Bollywood films will be scored by an Indian composer. It is good to keep these separate from Hollywood films, largely with American composers. 3493: 3485: 3223: 1490: 1240: 1096: 908:

However I disagree with your assertion that this amounts to a consensus to impose a rigid mathematical formula which excludes the standard exceptions in

706:— there's only one person here whose article definitely isn't going anywhere, and even his notability claim has more to do with passing NATHLETE for his 692: 1677:

I see no benefit to readers or editors in having two conventions, so this nomination will align the UK to the convention for the rest of the planet. --

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of AFDs. 4 articles is a little small for a category. If all four survive, we need to think about this then. If only 1 or 2 survive, merge as nom.

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I think we should have a centralized discussion on whether everything should drop the "Roman"; there are many categories retaining the "Roman" (e.g.,

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and that is what I intend. In fact this way puts the government agencies in one place and the non-government organisations in a different one.

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the population over five by rushing additional articles into place before the discussion closed. And "the hurry" is that because AFD closers do

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The proposed target is an overpopulated category for which some kind of diffusion might be helpful. Perhaps merge the nominated categories to

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As the articles are the films and not the scores, category should take the format "Films scored by X composers", as per the subcategories and

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suggested that in the previously quoted discussion that merge votes should also be read as a preference for renaming over doing nothing.

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based on the debate above, it seems ambiguity is being needlessly injected into the category title and its scope by the proposed rename.

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Fair enough, I've created the new merge target and adapted the nomination accordingly. Also I have merged the three discussion into one.

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I agree that many many small categories of mayors have been deleted. And I agree that in most cases that was the right thing to do.

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Nominator does not propose to merge or move anything, so the articles in this category will stay together as a category, while

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has 78 subcategories,. No reason is offered for singling out Russia. And fossils are not necessarily of extinct species. --

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place I can think of for a discussion like this - other than here. Substantively I don't agree with ambiguity in this case.

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There is also a "Landmarks" tree, though it's not as complete as the B&S one, so a double upmerge would be appropriate.

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The soundtracks are not about the dialogue, but the music. I really don't think this soundtrack tree is beneficial.

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There is a difference between recent extinctions and prehistoric distinctions and the categories should reflect that.

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There are already categories for Films by language, so anybody looking for films by language are already catered for.

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and excludes editorial discretion. As you may recall, you and another pushed your rigid mathematical formula in a

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Catholic Church has always emphasized it's own belief that it is the only one 'true' catholic church. That is a

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Well, then you have a project ahead of you of going back through years of CFD discussions to overturn all the

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I don't think many of these articles qualify for landmarks. They are about buildings and structures for sure.

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regardless of whether the university is affiliated with any of the churches using "catholic" in their name.

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So yes, there is consensus that 5 is a good rule-of-thumb ... but no, there isn't a consensus that it is a

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 March 14#Category:Non-governmental organizations by subject

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We do not need to separate soundtracks by the language of the film. We don't do this for anyone else.

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_September_10#Catholic_universities_and_colleges_by_location

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pending the outcomes of the AFDs. Let's see how mnay articles are involved before making a decision. --

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 April 5#Category:Non-governmental organizations by country

4991:

I have already made a comment, but I thought I should follow up my previous delete with more comments:

4706:

Okay, I'd missed those. It's still a bad idea. As far as size goes, the number is much smaller than

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The language of love (music) is a communication over and above the more usual forms of communication.

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as there is a clear consensus here, and no other admins appear to be active at CFD at the moment. –

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prehistory. By just merging the categories, those animals will remain lost in the crowd of fossils.

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No, that's grammatically valid. All film scores are by composers - these are divided by composer.

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but do not rename any UK subcategory due to the "Anglo-Catholic" theme of the Anglican church.

2268:. This results in an inconsistent position as the national sub-cats were renamed last year, see 196:, and upmerge the two nominations below to it. Alternatively, it could be broadened further to 5492:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

5467: 5438: 5366:. The decision was to remove the geographical NGO categories. There was an earlier decision: 5345:- can you link to the relevant discussion(s) re NGO categories that you allude to in the nom? 5301: 5165:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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look at the contents; the soundtrack articles are all specifically about albums, not films. –

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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exists, I am not sure whether this means there is a WP style these cats are not following. --

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Note that the primary reason for re-opening the discussion is to get a clearer consensus on

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We do not categorise film soundtracks by the language of the film for other languages (e.g.

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Category:Buildings and structures demolished as a result of the 2011 Christchurch earthquake

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is not split by language of film although he has scored about twice as many film as Rahman.

1712:" would be silly, so for those categories I have amended the rename target to "Ships built 5453: 5372: 5342: 5252: 5092: 5064: 5039: 4929: 4875: 4855: 4843: 4811: 4788: 4738: 4634:

Categories for composers of films' scores should take the format "Films scored by X" (per

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PS When tagging the categories, I noticed that 11 of them relate to rivers. "Ships built

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with those conclusions or not, and CFD has an extremely clear and unmistakable history of

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although it is not very obvious from the current parenting, these categories form part of

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Category:Destroyed landmarks in Spain demolished during the Second Spanish Republic period

5013:

This suggests that there is no substantive WP support for the creation of these sub-cats.

4116:? Surely there is almost 100% crossover? Until that is explained to me I am in favour of 5007:

for not acknowledging he created the sub-categories being discussed were created by him.

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looks like these are sensible, well-populated categories. I see no reason for deletion.

2928:

Please note that proposals regarding the topic in a general way has been taken place at

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As far as I can see, "plant biologist" is an apt description of what a "botanist" is...

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I disagree with your assertion that there is an "established consensus" as you describe.

3480:. However, do we even need to categorise by composer nationality? Only these two and 2932:, and its talk page. So, in any case, what is your opinion on this above single issue? 2606:(and many of its daughter categories)); there is also apparently a category tree under 1987: 1753: 784: 703: 4162:

Good find! Adding these, there are now 10 language categories (plus instrumentals) in

861:"mayors of (city)" if the category population falls short of five, with very close to 5403: 4455:

as these are very narrow intersections. Also agree with Fayenatic london's comments.

3666: 3626: 3351: 3289: 3123: 2763: 2665: 1955: 1671: 1654:&c) the convention for ships built in towns and cities of the United Kingdom is " 458: 401: 335: 263: 205: 4868:

Most of the lyricists' work in a single language and not multiple like composers. -

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that article discussion would have resolved the issue if there was no ambiguity and

771:

have articles before a dedicated "mayors of city" category is warranted. So even if

5087:(who may wish to comment again) against the merge/rename. So, yes, I do agree with 901: 886: 881:, and just linger indefinitely as a one-item category, if it doesn't get addressed 788: 712: 586: 4077:

There are hundreds of other languages and they all sit quote happily together in

5466:

Which confirms that the discussion should primarily focus on the main category.

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Category with just four articles, of which three are up for AFD as not passing

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the basis I described. Consensus is established by the discussions that have

141:

Category:Destroyed landmarks in Spain demolished during the Spanish Civil War

312:-- The usual tree is "buildings and Structures" not landmarks. Accordingly 5187: