Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2019 March 10

2335:-- Reading two main articles, I cannot discern that Conversos is a wider category than New Christians, as the current structure would imply. New Christians actually appears to cover converted Moors (Muslims) as well as converted Jews; if that is correct, the parent/child relationship should be reversed, but I think this is probably all about ex-Jews, in which case they should be merged. Possibly they should be split into Spanish, Portuguese and expatriate (e.g. in Italy) categories. 2194:- If someone has tagged articles for categories that don't exist wouldn't it be better to simply remove that category tag (e.g. revert the edit including restoring any previous category tag) rather than creating the category? Otherwise, you risk creating a category for a subject that you are not knowledgeable about and hence may duplicate an existing category or have incorrect parents etc (and cause extra workload at CFD). 3997:- my reson for opposing is threefold, first there is substancial coverage and publications concerning this issue, secondly espeically for Catholic socialism there is a rather strong theological movement behind it, and other branches of Christian socialism as well as described in an above !vote. Lastely most of these categories are reasonably well populated, and if they were all mereged together the 1233: 2421:

merged with "Spanish people of jewish descent", but New Christian isn´t specific to jew converts, and is more limmited in how far away the "descent" goes. You are right that the title may be confused with another church though, if the category is kept. Maybe the disambiguation would work, or even keeping the name in Spanish as " Cristiano Nuevo" to avoid confussion?

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and some ambulance services. That distinction is helpful because it enables the articles, via their categorisation, to be linked to the appropriate clinical field. Furthermore there have been a lot of mergers, so many of the articles are about organisations which no longer exist and are not affected by any official recategorisation.

1655:: The category, as of nomination for CfD, had 11 entries. Seven are related to IBM subsystems which, including their precursors, are over 30 years old, and whose current implementations process a large percentage of all mainframe work. Of the remaining four, 2 have the name subsystem in their title and are Microsoft-related. 3710:

I've checked a large number of articles in these categories and none of them was explicit about the denominational influence on the person's socialism (or vice versa). Even worse, quite a few articles are not even explicit about the influence of Christianity on the person's socialism (or vice versa).

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Knowledge (XXG) does not have to follow official policies when it comes to categorising articles. The 2012 legislation didn't actually say anything about types of trusts. All trusts were already either "NHS trusts" or "NHS foundation trusts", but some run mental health services, some acute hospitals,

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Both subcategories and half of the articles can be classified under Spiritual Christianity, but the other half of the articles can't. Having said that, there is admittedly an issue in the sense that a number of these (movements?) (sects?) can't be regarded as Eastern Orthodox either. Perhaps most of

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denominational mergers. Many of these are well-populated. In several cases, I suspect that the denominational ethos was a significant factor -- not a trivial one. For example, British trades unionism has its roots in Methodism; and Quaker philanthropy in their denominational ethos. Anabaptist an

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The real problem is not the hospital trusts, which generally still exist, but the community and mental health trusts, which are repeatedly merged and reorganised. And the ambulance trusts, which need to be linked to a different category tree. The point of the subcategories is to distinguish them.

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I don´t think we should join it with "conversos". There is a difference between a Converso and a New Christian. Converso is only the person who converts, while New Christians are their descendants up to the third generation. Torquemada for example was a New Christian but not a Converso. It could be

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Every trust is either a Foundation Trust or an NHS Trust. But the smaller ones can, or could, be properly subcategorised as hospital trusts, community trusts, mental health trusts or ambulance trusts. The process of amalgamation which is now being encouraged means that the larger organisations now

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These intersection by denomination/location categories are all 1 or 2 article and tend to hinder navigation since they break up small groups of articles and none of the target/merge categories are overly large. As far as growth potential, there are some other churches we don't have articles on in

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concerned a rename nomination while it should have been a merge nomination. The confusing nomination may well have contributed to a lack of consensus in that discussion. By this new nomination a clear merge (or reverse merge) is proposed. The rationale is obvious: the two categories serve the same

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does not even bother to describe how the provinces are governed. It does mention though: "Provinces are often deemed useless, and many proposals have been made in recent years to eliminate them." In Italian Knowledge (XXG) only 3 presidents of the Province of Rome have an article, of which only 1

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case for creation which I am not sure how to evaluate. Those are v rare, because in most such situations the editor concerned creates the category page and it doesn't enter my workflow; I think I do a few each year, so that's about one in 2,000 cases. In this case, creation and prompt CFD seemed

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I was wrongly assuming that the list of elements you added in the Subsystem section are generally applicable, not just to IBM. Since this list of elements is IBM-specific it is not of any help to explain the broader concept of a subsystem and you'd better remove that second sentence. The question

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No, I don't favor deletion of the parent category at all. As you suggested though, regardless of the outcome of this nomination, I would also favor purging articles where the person is socialist but Christian only insofar as childhood/background. (The issue for this nomination is the more narrow

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with lots of hits on the web, in news, and in books. Phillips's remark also implicitly references the deep cultural divide in England between Methodism and the dominant Anglicanism: in short Methodism is the religion of the industrial north, Anglicanism of the rural south. Merging that into

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CICS? If that's not a subsystem, stop the world - CICS and its play-a-likes (e.g. Uni-Kix, based on how some people say C-I-C-S and others say KICKS) are the "windows" to non-batch dating back longer than . . . ? That leaves just one: Interix. If that's vague, take out Interix. The rest are

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Poorly defined scope. It could mean any number of things to different people. Currently, it's being treated as for software subsystems, judging from its members. It probably shouldn't be renamed to "Software subsystems" either, since that suffers from the same problems of poor definition and

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in the real-world, the few notable enough for any kind of Knowledge (XXG) coverage have names that will not be confused with Knowledge (XXG) templates and their categorization. We only prefix "Knowledge (XXG)" into category names when necessary for clarity (e.g., arguably in the very broad

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That being said, one's denomination can definitely influence one's politics – and Christian socialists are far from being an exception. For example, we can look at Anabaptists' unique view that the state should be subordinate to the church. Or we can look at the interplay between the

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Although the articles aren't really clear about it, I think that 'conversos' are people who converted during their lifetime, while 'new Christians' are the descendants of conversos (who were born as Christians). I'll leave a notice at the talk page of both articles.

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tradition in these categories has been an issue, one that I have personally helped with rectifying, removing the categories where they are clearly inappropriately placed. But if that were the basis for deleting categories, surely we would be discussing the whole

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be that in some cases "Fooian socialism" is not seen as a distinct ideology from broader "Christian socialism"; but it is very clear that there are distinct cultural patterns of Christian socialism within various denominations. For example, the statement by

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tree, along with a host of other categories for various theological or political traditions. Of course we would not, however, given that Christian socialism is a theologico-political tradition well-recognized in both the disciplines of

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belong to the former Province of Rome, thus it was placed in the Italian counterpart. However, the en version did not have a trace of that part of history (the province was founded in 1920s, so Roman era history is not that relevant)

5063:. Only 1 of the 4 biographical articles even bothers mentioning the award in the body text and the source for it is the website of the organization that grants the award, so there is no convincing reason to make an exception on 1661:

What's interesting is that there are other articles that are about subsystems and are not tagged with Category:Subsystem. Since some are about hardware, I'd recommend either leaving it as, or renaming it "Subsystem (computing)"

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appearing may well perform several of these functions, so it doesnt make much sense to subcategorise them, and it may be that those subcategories will, in the long run, only contain organisations which are no longer operational

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would contain hundreds and possibly thousands of articles, which would then lead to editors complaining that it should be broken up, leading to a redundant cycle of creating more specific categories and then deleting them.

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It's honestly hard to infer too much about the defining-ness of this Canadian archaeology award from Knowledge (XXG) since the vast majority of winners don't have an article and, of the 4 that do, all are pretty short

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articles. For what's it's worth, 3 of those biography articles mention this award in passing with a list of other honors although 1 mentions it in the intro. All 4 articles are already well categorized in 44-article

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The term "NHS hospital trust" is no longer in use. Since the 2013 reorganisation of the NHS, a range of trust types were abolished, and all trusts are now either "NHS trusts" or "NHS foundation trusts". See here:

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I clicked through all of the Catholic sub-cat and one article in the rest. Some link their Socialism and Christianity and others don't (and should likely be purged) but the articles are not generally linking the

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That confirms what I thought. It means, most of all, that the two articles need to be improved in order to clarify the difference better. Also, the category may well be renamed in order to diambiguate, e.g. to

2004:(recategorizing articles if necessary) as this category is incorrectly named and is not well-defined. For software it's probably better to use the word "components" (e.g. as in existing categories such as 4971:

Thank you for your perspective as the category creator. Clearly this award is defining to the organisation but let's talk about those 5 references in the article that assert prestige for the recipients:

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question of whether the intersection of denomination and socialism is defining and, while I expected it to be for Catholic vs. Protestant, I didn't find that to be the case with the current articles.)

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Many of these really are defining characteristics, especially Catholic socialism. What we should do is upmerge to the broader denominations: Anabaptist socialists ➡ Protestant socialists, and etc..

2857:-- It is an unnecessary category. There are a lot of indigenous people in Mexico, each with distinct languages, but we have a category for them and the main article of this cat is in it already. 2265:

like the least-worst way of bringing more eyes on it. I tagged the category talk page for the relevant WikiProjects, so that it will show up their article alerts, and I will also leave a note at

3394:, there is no evidence that membership in these churches significantly influences their socialist beliefs. These are (or should be) proponents of Christian socialism, not Anabaptist socialism. 2254: 1171: 384: 308: 837: 592: 396: 3920:

amorphous "Christian socialism" or "Protestant socialism" would erase a crucial cultural distinction which absolutely central to any understanding of the history of socialism in England.

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I see what you mean, the province of Rome has been greatly reduced in size, in multiple phases in the first half of the 20th century. That makes it even more questionable to keep it as

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No need whatsoever for this tiny category. The primary article is already well-categorized, and there's no serious likelihood of adding further articles beyond the two it has now.

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The arguments brought up by Marcocapelle and Matthew hk above warrant further discussion. Specifically, is this the right starting date? Should this category be kept at all?

3228:. If some of the lower-level sub-cats are particularly small, with no indication of being defining, there may be mileage in a re-nomination of specific merger proposals. – 4612: 733:, but just that these groups reject such or such aspect of the teaching of their original mother church, the Russian Orthodox Church. I suggest moving this group to a new 604: 4717: 4677: 4648: 493: 431: 3580:

The intersection here is most certainly not trivial; for Christian socialists, one's denominational tradition can greatly influence the form that one's socialism take.

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they have in common are the components that handle input, scheduling, spooling and output; they also have the ability to interact with local and remote operators.

4632: 3947:'s nomination was well-intentioned, but it seems to have been based on assumptions about the nature of these various strands, rather than on actual research. -- 470:

Interesting categories. Denomination is POV. Schism is also POV. "Independent EO Churches" is the best and most neutral name but isn't in either merge proposal.

3976:. I would love to see some research refuting the interconnection of Christian socialism and various denominations that has been established in this discussion. 3250: 1912:

I have no idea to what list you're claiming I've added elements, nor to what "second sentence" you're referring. And the answer to your question is "nothing".

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Also, just in the interests of accuracy, three of the four articles are not stubs. Although I don't see why that matters when we're discussing the category. –

5016:, "CONGRATULATIONS, DR. RON!" (an actual cited article) doesn't convince me that the award is defining for the biography articles here in Knowledge (XXG). 3937: 3559:

tradition. Therefore, it is not sufficient to look solely at the impact that one's denomination has on one's socialism, as Marcocapelle seems to suggest.

1700:"A subsystem description is a system object that contains information defining the characteristics of an operating environment controlled by the system" 21: 4693: 3926: 2634: 4946:. This is a highly prestigious, national "lifetime achievement" type award that is defining of the careers of its recipients. See the references at 5030:

I'm sorry to hear that you're not personally convinced but they are in fact all reliable sources and say that the award is highly prestigious. –

1842:), leaving only 4 of 11 pages. Deleting this category and introducing a new "Job schedulers" category might be useful, but it's not a "rename". 615: 388: 387:. (If both the adjacent nominations on that page had obtained consensus, then it would have been a merge.) The target category was previously " 4446: 17: 4874: 4588: 4508: 3959: 3620: 3295: 3160: 2653: 2612: 2499: 2437: 2368: 2281: 2179: 1577: 1435: 1313: 1291: 1192: 938: 858: 272: 109: 5067:

in this case. Note that listification is not needed either because the main article already contains a list, by the way with many redlinks.

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However, I think that needs a wider discussion somewhere. I would be willing to do a group nomination of all the by-nationality subcats of

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remains: what do IBM subsystems and Windows subsystems and other subsystems have in common with each other, except for the name subsystem?

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I am unsure whether the distinction between the two terms is clear enough to make a viable category without a lot of overlap contrary to

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A distinction like this is a lot clearer. However, I wonder whether any church bodies should be included in the second category at all.

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Even worse, quite a few articles are not even explicit about the influence of Christianity on the person's socialism (or vice versa).

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for the entirety of its existence. Although to be consistent with the parent article, perhaps the merged category should be called

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If this is your primary issue with the category, the solution is to improve its usage, not delete it, especially given that, as

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movements imported to Russia by missionaries, mixed with folk traditions, resulting in tribes of believers collectively called

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I think that it is sufficient to know that their Christianity may have influenced their socialism; we need not delve deeper.

149:? I'm not sure if that can be done here or if I'd need to request a renaming if my merger request is successful. Many thanks, 4713: 4100: 3886: 3436: 3259: 2845: 2160: 1086: 3113:

is a messy hybrid of politicians (i.e. those seeking or holding electoral office) and people with some other political role.

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There are two problems at stake, one problem requires purging, the other problem requires merging. Let us keep that apart.

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If the category is kept, then it name is multiply ambiguous: it could refer to converts from any era, or to members of the

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tree altogether? That's not what's being discussed here. Moreover, wouldn't the solution be cleaning up the categories?

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per nom, but please add the other denominational categories to this nomination or else we will get a procedural oppose.

3340: 3322: 3268: 2645: 1787:: Right now, it seems to be no more than "List of things somebody deems to be a subsystem, in some sense of that term". 1130:

As 'hospital trust' is a defunct term, a continuing subcategorization as hospital trust would merely lead to confusion.

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for major Church bodies widely regarded as Eastern Orthodox which temporarily lacked communion with the rest (such as

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it seems to have been based on assumptions about the nature of these various strands, rather than on actual research.

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reaffirms that there s at least a culturally (and to some extent ideologically) distinct strand of Quaker Socialism.

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It may be a container cat for the cat of the former mayor (or whatever the name of the position) of the province.

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Groves, Nicholas (2000). "Society and Sacrament: The Anglican Left and Sacramental Socialism, Ritual as Ethics".

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I doubt if we will be able to populate that, the article doesn't even provide a list of presidents and article

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The inclusion by some people of socialists who happen to be Christians but who are not necessarily part of the

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Tiny eponymous category. I've already added a bunch of categories to the articles, so it's all ready to go.

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A better idea than merging is sorting out the two categories such that they mirror their parent categories

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3 An online encyclopedia article without citations with a paragraph on the award within a long article (

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and its contents fit the name that I have suggested. After renaming that one, then by all means rename

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pointed out and my citations substantiate, the denominational connections are far from trivial here.

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concern people who were born Christian but descend from Jewish people who converted to Christianity.

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is not the best place for such discussion. Also, may be it did not need disambiguation bracket for

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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OCAWARD. Lists deal with awards much better, because there is scope for modest commentary.

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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That's not how it is currently used. It currently includes all women in politics, including

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4 Primary source home page from the issuer of the award who intends it to be prestigious (

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Then do Anglican socialists have a different view on socialism than Methodist socialists?

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doesn't seem very familiar with how en.wp works. Instead of commenting here, they created

2247:). If there's an existing cat which is specific enough I apply the correct category (e.g. 1949: 1913: 1863: 1843: 1788: 1704:

What about WP:AfDisNotCleanup? That makes for 2 cleanups, (a) the Subsystem subsection of

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Do you have any further comment here? Why not simply 'movements' for the second category?

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most of the categoreis but too few are notable to foreseeably get to 5 or so articles. -

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prior to the nomination. The move is necesary to disambiguate it from the modern entity.

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to the other category pages. I wish this would be a lot easier, but it is what it is.

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now has only 10 articles and New York City is its only subcategory with 2 articles.

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For concisions and to be consistent with almost every other such template category (

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is a set of elements, which is a system itself, and a component of a larger system"

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looking further, I realized there is a top article for these "movements", which is

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may potentially contain e.g. political activists and political commentators while

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for sects that originated from Orthodoxy (most often, Russian Orthodoxy), such as

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in line with standard naming conventions and to match the parent article name.

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per nom. In addition the parent categories are often quite small as well (not

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I accept Matthew's correction and have also changed the name of the article.

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If it's in draftspace or a user sandbox, then I disable the categories (e.g.

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I don't think it's worth having these two categories. The team played in the

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about the award, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good basis for

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