Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2019 April 21

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refer the port name instead of that of the architecture. This can be due to a number of reasons: for brevity, or because the same architecture is used by multiple incompatible platforms, necessitating a separate port to each, thus rendering the architecture irrelevant. Another reason is because of history: the architecture was called something else in the past, and instead of introducing a new port name to reflect the new architecture name, the existing port name is reused with some qualifier. As a final example, the port may require additional commonalities other than architecture: endianess, ABI, etc.

4454:? The lack of a long-term stable cease-fire line is IMHO the major difference here with the many other cases of disputed territories worldwide, such as North Cyprus, Indian/Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, Israel/West Bank & Gaza, Israeli-controlled Golan, ROC-controlled Taiwan, Transnistria/Moldova etc. DPR is a rebellious entity holding a moving piece of territory, not a geographical area. Other examples that come to my mind of comparable rebel-controlled moveable territories are: 1349: 950: 722: 703: 1016:. None of these distributions have Power in their name. And what has "Linux on Power" or "Power Linux" got to do with this discussion? These are not the names of any Linux distribution (AFAIK); they are IBM phrases/terms that describe Linux running on Power-related things, and the former is also just a partial match for "Linux on Power Systems", which means what it says: Linux running on 3377:. Thus it may lead - as expatriate soccer players may well play in several countries in the course of time - to the point that any American expatriate soccer player article will be in numerous of those categories, thus causing more category clutter. I am not sure if this would be a decisive argument, but at least it would be a clearer argument than having been raised until now. 3221:, the basketball comparison is relevant because the structure of its expatriate categories is exactly the same as that for expat soccer players, with the only difference being that it adds an extra layer of triple intersections to both reduce clutter and diffuse the overlarge by-nationality and by-country categories. If you take a few moments to look at 1564:

relationship between the subcategories and their parent. This is especially important in the case of the Power ISA, because there are other things with similar names that differ by only capitalization, suffixes, and the inclusion of other words. Thus, it's the omission of "ISA" from "Power ISA" that's confusing and obstructive towards easy navigation.

2993: 2938: 2353: 2249:: It's an "existing intersection" because those, as I explained above, those 3 attributes (nationality, location, and sport), are already intersected with each other. The difference is that the the existing intersections take 2 attributes at a time, which requires 3 categories; whereas the triple intersection replaces those 3 cats with one. 3316:

issue with these types of triple intersections. Sure, some might consider 50 the threshold, but if these categories become more widely adopted people will start adding to the overcategorisation with the creation of categories for only one or a handful of players, thus further crowding the category system and making it less useful.

2132:. Therefore, the difference is only of one category, so I highly doubt this will help reduce clutter, and isn't worth the creation of hundreds of narrow categories when tools such as PetScan allow for this type of searching. There are quite a lot of categories that could be created by diffusion and populated sufficiently, such as 5117:-- I am somewhat troubled by this nom, because it is mixing up prisons used for quite different purposes. Marshalsea and Fleet were mainly places of imprisonment for debt. Colditz was a Prisoner of War Camp. Qahqaheh Castle seems to have been a political prison, but this seeks to make all kinds of prison much the same. 3049: 4541:

I suppose I do not place as much importance on a defined border prior to secession given borders become fluid in times of war. I think it is more significant who controls a particular territory, regardless of pre-war boundaries, than who claims to be the legitimate authority but is unable to exercise

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triple intersections are exactly what we need to cut down the messy categorisation of expat sportspeople. As BHG says, we dont need to do this for all such intersections, but if there are more than 100 entries already this one is clearly viable. People who are interested in such things - as I am not

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A reader looking for American soccer players in Germany now has a discrete set to read, uncluttered by other sportspeople. For some reason, you want to add in 50 players of other sports, and if you follow through on your logic, the basketball players should also be upmerged, putting those 111 soccer

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That's quite unlikely. Hypothetically, if 50 were the threshold, not enough categories would meet this requirement for the main category to even be close to empty. If a footballer plays in multiple countries, but at least one doesn't have a category, they would still have to be in the main expat cat.

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But this case is different to the other examples you cite, and I think that both you and GS are spending too much time look at unrelated possibilities elsewhere, and overlooking what's happening here. We have 3 attributes (sport, nationality and location) which are usually categorised two at a time.

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as it is, so this is not necessary and not breaking context. No prejudice against recreation if the Donetsk People's Republic ever actually succeeds in gaining independence from Ukraine, but as long as it still is part of Ukraine the places are already appropriately categorized without needing this.

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But this is all distraction from the core point. You want to take a usefully-sized category of 111 pages, and on each of those 111 pages replace it with 3 parent categories. How does this help either readers or editors of those pages or of the 3 categories which will have an extra 111 pages dumped

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If I understand you correctly, you are saying that given that the Power architecture is now open, any implementing vendor could run Linux for the Power architecture on their hardware, and therefore, the name should change to reflect that neutrality? Are there any real world examples of this? If not,

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Those basketball categories are a great example of why these narrow triple intersections should be avoided. This is clear overcategorisation, 80% of the "X expatriate basketball people in Y" or "National Basketball Association players from X" have less than 50 articles, nearly 70% have less than 20

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All I'm stating is that both of those past deletion discussions came to the conclusion that adding this whole additional layer leads to very little benefit, and promotes the creation of narrow categories. Many expatriate footballers will already be playing in more than two countries, and categories

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I didn't state that the common name for "Power ISA" is "Power", I stated the reason why a person wouldn't find many mentions of "Power ISA" among Linux distributions. This reason is because for some architectures, the convention amongst free software, which Linux distributions are subject to, is to

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issues. There has been no discussion about the creation of this cat. Given that the Donetsk People's Republic is not recognised, how is it significant that there is a population (with the only substantiated figures being provided by the unrecognised entity occupying the territory)? Such categories

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The statement that "the only way to avoid having 3 categories is to have a triple intersection" crucially assumes that in the presence of such a triple intersection, single categories and double categories disappear. Unfortunately, in wiki space, this does not happen: in a survey of a few American

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That is a completely fair punt. This leads me to think that - after I have seen objections in general against triple intersections in numerous CfD discussions - that triple intersection categories aren't really a bad thing at all, provided of course they can be sufficiently populated. In this case

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Again (for the third time?), you seem to dismiss my arguments despite the fact that I already directly addressed the issues with the category in question several times in the upper section. But since you brought up this basketball category, I thought I'd mention the more general observation of the

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This whole proposal started from an axiomatic belief that triple intersection are inherently bad, based on a false analysis of the maths, and inversion of the cited guideline NARROWCAT. These myths have been asserted without looking at the actual effects ... and when the actual effects are pointed

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Free software or Linux distributions doesn't refer to the Power ISA frequently for some of the reasons outlined previously. The Power ISA is an evolution of the PowerPC architecture. Linux was ported to PowerPC first, so all ports to the PowerPC and subsequent architectures are called "ppc". Power

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I wasn't particularly concerned about the category until the recent martial law business was picked up as a major story by the mainstream media globally. There have been a plethora of background/summary articles covering developments in Ukraine since 2014 reminding readers of the circumstances of

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refers to the region of Georgia just as much as the territory of the secessionist republic. Abkhazia is a worthwhile geographical entity, DPR is not. Nobody would argue against a sentence like "Sukhumi is located in Abkhazia" and it does not make any assumption on the recognition status thereof,

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state in the territories they controlled, unlike the DPR. As far as "a moving piece of territory", my impression was the Donetsk front had been fairly static since mid-2015/early 2016. Thus, while acknowledging your point about the DPR's relative newness, and without intending any comment on the

2303:. The difference is quite minimal, this won't be greatly reducing the number of categories used in articles (which was also noted in the past CfD). Just because a category is larger does not mean it needs to be diffused, the same question could be asked about the usefulness of categories such as 1493:

This is the key reason, I'm on the "oppose" side of things. If common usage doesn't use the ISA term, who does it benefit if the category name is changed? It seems like this would be a very pedantic way to handle this topic, which is not going to be followed by the majority of readers. It may be

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hierarchy, the only acceptable name for an architecture is the name of the architecture, not a partial match that's never been shown to be in use, let alone in common use. A user of this hierarchy would expect all its subcategories to refer to the architecture by its name. This signifies the

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This has nothing to do with the basketball category, this is regarding association football, there are other factors relating to that category given the stature of basketball in the US. If people are interested in very specific intersections, then I'd say PetScan would be a better option.

180:, which is why someone long ago converted all be Booian Fooian categories to Booiand of Fooian descent, or vice versa. INFO: the population disruptions (via gulags) of the Stalin era resulted in a lot of Soviet citizens being displaced and located away from their ethnic area of USSR. 2231:. Overcategorisation does very little to help readers, not every intersection which has more than a few members needs a category. In this case it makes very little difference with clutter, the outcome of both past CFD discussions seems clear as to why these categories are avoided. 2633:

So then the main expat category will be exhaustive except for players who just happened to play in countries which people decided to create subcats for. It makes more sense to be non-diffusing and categorise all expats in the main cat, just like the top nationality categories.

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Can we put the arguments pertaining to usage to bed now? There never was such an argument, because every argument for usage that has been put forward was based in an incorrect understanding of the situation, and has added nothing to the consensus process other than

353:- it's peculiar that the United States should use a system that's different from the rest of the world, but I suppose that's true of so many things outside Knowledge (XXG) as well. I thought it was perfectly logical to have these categories, but if not that's fine. 4123:

for now. Recognition is not required to be included in Knowledge (XXG), as long as the entity exists de-facto. Recognized by whom? By one country? by most countries? by UN assembly? we have plenty of countries with limited recognition. Donetsk is just another one.

3800:-- While triple (or worse) intersections tend to be deplored, this one is well-populated, indicating that it is a notable intersection, and we should keep the category. If there were only a handful of articles, upmerging would probably have been appropriate. 4082:

most certainly condemn both the DPR and LPR as Russia-backed states which would not exist without Russia's less than tacit backing. Given the reissuing of statements condemning the existence of - and rationale behind supporting - the states, it clearly flouts

2775:, no this proposal started because "X expatriate footballers in Y" is overcategorisation, and one category less isn't useful enough to need these triple intersections. I've explained why this is overcategorisation, not sure why this needs to be dismissed as " 3575:: there is no policy against triple intersections, and never has been. And as I have demonstrated above, this triple intersection category is a Good Thing™ in two way: a) it reduces category clutter on pages, and b) it subdivides an overlarge category. -- 3980:. Ultimately I believe the delete/support commenters have the advantage both by weight of argument as well as numerically. Knowledge (XXG) relies on reliable sources. If reliable sources don't list these places as being within the DPR, how can we? ♠ 4598:

Yes, the boundaries of Abkhazia, Kosovo, Taiwan, Transnistria, Artsakh etc are more or less well-sourced and it was stable, but Donetsk People's Republic just can't compare to those unrecognised state that had been frozen since end of cold war.

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reality is sufficient for such an article to exist. Wiki need not go further and quasi legitimise it's claims by creating categories for them. Allowing the category to exist definitely implies that Wiki is recognising territorial claims of the

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while "village XYZ is located in Donetsk People's Republic" does not make much sense in terms of geography because one day it is in it, one day it is not. Front lines are not drawn on atlas maps - permanent cease-fire lines are (correlate to

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Abkhazia is a province of Georgia and already had a defined border before seceding. North Cyprus has a UN-defined and guarded cease-fire line. The Donetsk case cannot be compared to any of these two. FARC, VC or LTTE definitely operated a

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is non-diffusing, it is useful to have a complete category. Otherwise if more of these categories existed, it becomes strange for players who played in some countries where these categories exist, but also in other countries which do not.

3660:. Btw I have come to think that perhaps the real problem here is that we have a too low bar for accepting sportspeople articles in Knowledge (XXG), there are so many of them that any attempt of categorizing them becomes useless. 2268:

It seems to me that you and GS are both fixated on the idea that triple intersections are inherently bad, without actually looking at their effects. It's disappointing to repeatedly point out those effects and be ignored.

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It isn't claimed that these Linux distributions have "Power ISA" in their name. This category is for Linux distributions that run on computers that implement the Power ISA. It contains, as it did when it was nominated:

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It is irrelevant to this discussion whether the operating systems have "Power ISA" in their name or not. The rationale given by the nomination is still stands: these operating systems support the Power ISA, and since

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was created for Linux distributions that support the Power ISA, but it doesn't give the name of the architecture correctly—it mistakenly shortens it to Power. That's wrong, there's no such architecture called Power.

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is a place in Donetsk People's Republic according to reliable sources is one for an article; that is it's proper place. A category is not the place to have a debate about it. That the Donetsk People's Republic is a

3202:

Well I have no interest or great knowledge in basketball and its category structure, hence why I don't think it is necessary to discuss here. And I already addressed both issues you mentioned in the upper section.

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Then in the parent category footballers would be left who did not play in any of the countries that have a subcategory. That is not strange at all, it is just by default how the category system has been designed.

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refers to "architectures", but consistently refuses to refer to any architecture by name, using other names instead, and for the Power ISA, it names the specific processors supported and the endianess supported.

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have not been diffused, but the other 41 have been. In any up merger, it's unwise to assume that articles are already in the parent category; much better to let a bot do the merger, and handle and exceptions.

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Yes, before 2010 there was a campaign to eliminate triple intersections, but it seems to have faded away since then. I have created lots of triple intersections once I spotted how they reduced act clutter.

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In this case, we have a choice between one category on the age (as of now), or replacing it with 3 categories as you and GS want to do. The proposals you make would not combine 3 categories as this does.

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ISA is also used in either big or little endian mode, so ports must choose one. Finally, Power ISA software uses an ABI specified by the OpenPOWER foundation that's different from the ones used by PowerPC.

4797:. Moreover, that area has been stable since Feb 2015. IMHO it is defining for those places to be within the control of DPR. I haven't checked all the citations but the evidence was sufficient for me. – 3645: 3623: 3439: 2412: 4290:-- While this unrecognised polity exists, we ought to have the category for places in it. If it ceases to exist (by conquest, amalgamation, or otherwise. we may still need it for the former polity. 2567:

No, I'm stating that all expatriates should be included in the expat category, so even if sub-categories were created, they should still remain in the main expat category (similar to what GS said).

4560:). Unless of course you consider all of Donetsk Oblast to be in DPR, because it is what they claim. Claims do not matter here, international recognition status even less. Only geography matters. 2101:

I am happy to discuss the upper layer of cats "Fooian expatriate sportspeople in Bar" elsewhere, but this so not the place, so please drop the point-scoring attempts to introduce red herrings. --

1804: 3016: 1839: 5069: 3233: 2062: 42: 37: 2065:, I think the nominator and closer's rationale summarise it well, having this category structure is simple overcategorisation and adds very little value, just like categories such as 2220: 985:. I can find no reference where these Linux versions are referred to by this name. They are all either called Linux on Power, or Power Linux. I don't see the "ISA" term used at all. 4419:

given the conflict is ongoing. However, categorizing places as being in the DPR is not mutually exclusive to categorizing them as being in Ukraine, so in my view it's a question of

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To be clear, I would not support creating the full range of country-level subcategories for the DPR and certainly oppose categorizing applying DPR categories to pre-2014 topics. --

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boundaries of the DPRI are hard to verify or are wildly unstable, then I could be persuaded that this particular instance is not verifiable. But so far, I see no such evidence. --

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Not sure how this is an "existing intersection" when no other triple intersection categories of the format "X expatriate footballers in Y" exist. I'd say this is very similar to

5001: 3908:-- While this is a triple intersection, it is well populated, which is ample reason for keeping it. The right solution is to upmerge if (but only if) a category is miniscule. 1538:

also has a ppc64el port, which supports IBM Power Systems and industry standard OpenPOWER computers (which use IBM POWER7/8/9 processors, all of which are Power ISA processors).

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I take it, by the way, that Washington DC has some sort of dispensation (presumably because it's not in a state), as it has several categories for individual sporting codes.

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We can look at the Olympic category another time. For now, just look at how triple intersection categories are widely used to reduce cutter on expatriate sportspeople. --

3449: 3444: 2422: 2417: 1471:. The articles will have no to minimal mentions of Power ISA because Linux distributions have a habit of not referring to the ISA by name because of other issues, such as 1106:. The articles will have no to minimal mentions of Power ISA because Linux distributions have a habit of not referring to the ISA by name because of other issues, such as 1940:

Even worse, an article in categories A, B and C might be put in four such categories "A and B", "B and C", "A and C" as well as "A, B and C", which clearly isn't helpful.

1835: 159:, by random sampling I encountered an Azerbaijani person in the Russian Empire and an Azerbaijani person in the Soviet Union. They do not belong in the descent category. 2954: 2915: 2312: 4891:. That is not the place of Wiki; Wiki can only report on reliable sources. At the moment, only Ukraine has reliable proofs that Makiivka is a populated place at all. 2870:

This category currently contains 111 pages. I don't see how the usability of any of the 3 parent categories will be improved by dumping 111 pages into each of them.

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It seems counter-intuitive to argue that the identity of the entity which exerts territorial control over a place is non-defining. I admit, it does smack a bit of

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expatriate soccer players that I've examined, each one has the full panoply of single, double and triple categories. So no category count saving then in practice.

2301:. Therefore, the difference is only of one category, so I highly doubt this will help reduce clutter, and isn't worth the creation of hundreds of narrow categories 4542:

control. Again, I disagree with the parallels to FARC, the VC, or the LTTE as, to the best of my recollection, they did not ever declare an independent state. --

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In general, intersection categories should only be created when both parent categories are very large and similar intersections can be made for related categories

109: 2456: 4332:– Simply put, I do not find the arguments for deletion to be convincing. There appear to be three primary arguments for deletion, which I will address in turn: 4510: 3622:

The example of reduced numbers of categories supplied above only works if one set of triple intersections replaces other sets of triple intersections (e.g.

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It seems to me that every argument you make against this category involves pointing at something else, rather than looking at the merits of this category. --

2464: 2460: 4014: 4308: 4269: 3434: 3045: 3012: 2851: 2760: 2704:: Almost no expat sportspeople play abroad in more than one sport, so there's no need to make that non-diffusing when there are by-sport subcats such as 2692: 2407: 2294: 2125: 2025: 1882: 5095: 3008: 2855: 2710: 2696: 2021: 1981: 1886: 1707: 1695: 1400: 1449:

would probably make more sense. However, the articles don't seem to mention anything about Power ISA, so I wonder if this is a defining characteristic.

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would probably make more sense. However, the articles don't seem to mention anything about Power ISA, so I wonder if this is a defining characteristic.

21: 3414: 3366: 2387: 3649: 2504:, so therefore with the above example it is only a difference of one category per country, which is not significant enough for a triple intersection. 2228: 4336:

Such categories imply that Knowledge (XXG) chooses to recognise this entity despite global, mainstream sourcing thoroughly repudiating its existence.

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adds is that it diffuses 111 pages from some large categories. I dunno how many times I need to explain that point, but it seems to be getting lost.

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And the status of a sport is one country is irrelevant. We are discussing intersection between any two countries, not simply how to handle the US.

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The answer is obvious. Washington D.C. is a district and not inside any state. Those subcategories would normally be 'Baseball players from state'.

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the Donetsk People's Republic. Similarly, in a period of war, we would not quickly recategorize places if they were occupied by a hostile army.

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Yes, that's exactly what I said prior (which you highlighted above and also incorrectly dismissed), so no idea why you again are saying this is

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are "very large" to need a lower level. No other such triple intersection categories exist, for good reason as the existing categories suffice.

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needs to name the architecture correctly. There's no such architecture called Power. IBM's second-generation RISC architecture evolved as such:

2752: 2542: 2523: 2493: 2324: 1408: 922: 4745:. I strongly believe that NPOV requires us not to take sides in an a contested secession like this. Instead we should categorise both by the 2950: 2911: 17: 4774: 4552: 4506: 4087:

to neutrally portray the DPR as though it were a matter of commonly supported understanding that it is a recognised, unproblematic entity. --

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One of the advantages of the subcategory would be to reduce the size of the parent category. What is the reason for making it non-diffusing?

2557: 2482: 2320: 2281: 2209: 2113: 2043: 1966: 5073: 4557: 2010: 1977: 1321: 4697:- categorization (of towns etc) should be (only) by more permanent characteristics than which side of a front line they are currently on. 3424: 3419: 3395:, that well-intention attempt at clarification went awry. It actually inverts the situation, because the clutter is the other way around. 3374: 3370: 2397: 2392: 1541: 570: 412: 4864: 3895: 606: 4479: 3122:, which currently has 3,576 pages plus the 111 Americans in the subcats. How would dumping the 111 into that huge set help readers? -- 2053:

Yes, some of the "Expatriate footballers in Y" categories for major countries are on the larger side, though so are categories such as

1376:. See also my vote on a similar rename, just above this one. I have found no reference to the operating system that uses the ISA term. 1081: 177: 4040:

imply that Knowledge (XXG) chooses to recognise this entity despite global, mainstream sourcing thoroughly repudiating its existence.

2152:, hence why overcategorisation exists. PetScan instead is a very useful tool to find these intersections of specific characteristics. 1521: 1058: 918: 309: 300: 278: 1446: 4139: 2874: 287: 2166:

I don't advocate the creation of a flurry of new smallcats for Fooian expat footballers in Bar. I am advocating keeping such cats

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was a term promoted by IBM marketing in the 2000s to refer to everything that could be related in some way to what was then called

639: 4370:"Donetsk Oblast" is a political and legal territory, not merely a geographic area. While "Donetsk Oblast" continues to exist as a 2327:

all intersect and share similar attributes (Brazilian footballers, football medalists, 2008 Olympics), however this does not mean

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Rather the reverse, the main category will become almost empty except for players who just happened to play in small countries.

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political geography (i.e. Donest Oblast of Ukraine). We should leave readers to make up their own minds which POV they prefer.

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It would be interesting to see the arguments against triple intersections (apart from that it often leads to smallcat issues).

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Comments like that come when you try distraction techniques using facetious example, rather than addressing the issues at hand.

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mainstream sources have accepted that equally quickly. In this case, mainstream sources accept that Donetsk People's Republic

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I agree that in this case, the extra layer should not be created unless it passes a high threshold, of say 50 or 100 pages. --

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At a minimum we should exclude from this category any claimed place where the Republic does not have actual physical control.

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However, that merger would cause extra category clutter on the articles, which seems to me to be both unhelpful to readers

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By combing that into a single triple intersection category, we reduce category clutter while breaking up an overlarge set.

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was temporarily controlled by Germany during WWII, it was still, in terms of geography, located in the Channel Islands.

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Well yes, technically "upmerge", same difference. This is overcategorization, an additional level of categories such as

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has a ppc64el port, which targets Power ISA 2.07 and 3.0 in the little endian mode using the 64-bit OpenPOWER ELFv2 ABI.

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The category under discussion here has 111 pages. As noted at the very start of the nomination, there is nothing in

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Well with context it's not too difficult to determine I was referring to the main nationality expat categories, i.e.

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BHG you usually seem to be a sensible editor, but condescending comments like that can undermine that impression.

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to readers. And not all categories which share attributes need a triple intersection created. Categories such as

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point of categorization for a populated place. Every place here is already in the appropriate subcategories of

2359:

This type of category ("Fooian footballers in Bar") reduces the number of categories by the following formula:

1495: 1377: 1040: 1013: 986: 2846:. If this category is superfluous, the it should not be deleted; it should be merged to all 3 parents, i.e. 1547: 5122: 4916: 4896: 4856: 4360:, but then again we do tend to be relatively quick to reflect political changes (e.g. Swaziland → Eswatini). 4295: 3981: 3913: 3887: 3805: 3748: 3631: 3562: 957: 598: 185: 4127: 3706:

Same with any number of attributes: combining them all produces the fewest categories. You can test it at

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self-governing and in control of a territory, so that I see no reason why we should not have a category.

4565: 4532: 4491: 4406: 4320: 4240: 4163: 4111: 3864:- will presumably be looking for people from particular sports, not Fooish expat sportspeople in general. 3665: 3602: 3511: 3382: 3082: 3023: 2922: 2653: 2624: 2586: 2031:

If 3,751 doesn't for your definition of "very large", then there are v v few large categories on en.wp. --

1863: 1846: 1715: 1454: 1238: 1089: 820: 664: 646: 164: 147: 4427:. I see your point about "control" versus "in", but I think the line is blurrier in reality—for example, 4416: 4357: 3287: 2964: 1921: 1890: 5142: 4983: 4955: 4926: 4798: 4214: 4188: 4135: 4092: 4045: 3961: 3933: 3718:

if all such triple intersections were eliminated then the number of categories would reduce even further

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Petscan is an external tool, with no integration into the en.wp interface. It's no help to to readers.

2878: 2293:

Many expatriate footballers will already be playing in more than two countries, and categories such as

808: 4446:

Regarding #3, if you consider that Donest Oblast is no longer a geographical designation but merely a

3846:- BHG makes a good if somewhat lengthy case in favour of some triple intersections, such as this one. 2934:, you usually seem to be a sensible editor, but comments like this one can undermine that impression. 4846:

This remains an active and ongoing conflict, and it does not IMO violate NPOV to fail to recognise a

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out, then reasons are invented why these cats should be exceptions to normal categorisation practice.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2019 May 14#Category:Buildings and structures in Bafatá

711:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2019 May 14#Category:Buildings and structures in Baucau

539: 535: 199: 124: 4389:

of #1 of #2, not because any of the two separately. We have quickly renamed Swaziland into Eswatini

1494:

imprecise as it stands, but IMHO, changing things to be more precise, will make things less usable.

4683: 1331:

The name of the architecture the OSes in this category support is called the Power ISA, not Power.

778: 578: 439: 399: 340: 3758: 2779:". I see it more useful as non-diffusing, just as nearly all German footballers are in subcats of 1703: 1226: 932:

The name of the architecture the Linux distributions supports is called the Power ISA, not Power.

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entity, in reality there are two entities: a Ukrainian-controlled Donetsk and the separatist DPR.

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is a place in Donetsk People's Republic according to reliable sources. And that is not the case.

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So with 3 attributes, the only way to avoid having 3 categories is to have a triple intersection.

3627: 3572: 3558: 3361:, the most plausible rationale for this nomination that I can think of is the following. Keeping 1648: 1420: 1416: 1360: 969: 839: 593: 422: 379: 360: 181: 2773:

this whole proposal started from an axiomatic belief that triple intersection are inherently bad

4644:

The ebbs and flows of this war, and of the line of territorial control, are well-documented in

3694:

If we have three attributes A, B and C we can combine them in a triple intersection as Cat:ABC.

3404:

Take your example of an American soccer player who has played for teams in the UK, Italy, Spain

3282:

the extra layer should not be created unless it passes a high threshold, of say 50 or 100 pages

5141:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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As I asked GS, how exactly would How would dumping the 111 into that huge set help readers? --

3079: 3035: 3020: 2931: 2919: 2649: 2620: 2582: 2377:

Take the example of an American soccer player who has played for teams in the UK, Italy, Spain

2371: 1860: 1843: 1734:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1711: 1647:

This good discussion would be more productive creating a main article (by expanding what's in

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

218:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2663:

Hence why it is more useful to operate similar to the top footballer nationality categories.

2144:(over 1700 players). However, these aren't useful enough categories, just because a category 1762:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1599:

about the use of "Power Architecture" on Knowledge (XXG) that's relevant to this discussion.

1285:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1145:

about the use of "Power Architecture" on Knowledge (XXG) that's relevant to this discussion.

886:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

503:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

246:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

73:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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state much like the DPR, and their situation is much more comparable in terms of geography.

4471: 4131: 4088: 4041: 3832: 1683: 1651:). Once that scope and naming convention reach a consensus, the category name will follow. 1600: 1565: 1476: 1428: 1332: 1206: 1146: 1111: 1063: 1021: 933: 4500:

If I am not mistaken (and I could be), FARC, JFS, and the VC did not declare and operate a

3236:. I can see no reason to treat expat footballers differently to expat basketball people. -- 2881:. But when the resulting subcat contains over 50 pages, it seems like a very good idea. -- 4631: 4600: 4432: 4338:

Mainstream sources "repudiat its existence" as a legal entity but certainly recognize its

3865: 3851: 3712:

It's a pity to see straightforward counterfactuals being asserted with such certainty as @

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We have plenty of categories which are only partly diffused, and they work fine (see e.g.

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that we don't subcategorize United States sportspeople by the type of sport they perform.

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Phrases like "the main expat cat" are unhelpful, because "main" could mean anything here.

2013:

doesn't exist per NARROWCAT for the very good reason that it would contain only one page.

4907:-- It is indeed an unrecognised state, but so is Transnistria and several more. It is 4673: 4365: 774: 574: 435: 395: 336: 4712: 4342:

existence. Categorization on Knowledge (XXG) acknowledges the latter, not the former.

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refers to the POWER processor series, and mentions that it's actually a ppc64el port.

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is near-universally recognized as being occupied by Turkey (via the puppet state of

3761:. Normal category maintenace, now made vastly easier by careful use of Cat-a-lot. -- 5099: 4274: 3506:

the triple intersection will be useful for UK, Italy and Spain, but not for Gabon.

3431:

However, currently that same player will be categorised by the same attributes as:

2949:

cited NARROWCAT above, misunderstanding it application, but it would apply to both

2404:

However, currently that same player will be categorised by the same attributes as:

1929:

Such intersections tend to be very narrow, and clutter up the page's category list.

454: 4231:

by the DPR. That is neither consistent nor does it actually say that the place is

2967:. It might help you to avoid these misplaced comparisons of apples and oranges. -- 4350:

territory of an unrecognized and as yet unsuccessful secession movement is not a

4264:

territory of an unrecognized and as yet unsuccessful secession movement is not a

2955:

Category:American expatriate soccer players in Germany who were born in the 1980s

2916:

Category:American expatriate soccer players in Germany who were born in the 1980s

4828: 4711:. It's Donetsk Oblast. Besides we're not here to define fluid war boundaries. -- 4699: 4463: 3828: 3688: 1679: 1202: 562: 2765:

So the triple intersection gives us a net gain of one less category per country

2718:

So the triple intersection gives us a net gain of one less category per country

2713:: no need to make that non-diffusing, except for players with dual nationality. 3847: 1783: 1306: 907: 524: 267: 94: 2451:

There is no great novelty in this. We already have 84 by-country subcats of

4467: 4428: 4063:. After four years of "independence" it still lacks diplomatic recognition. 4976:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

3954:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

3259:

articles, 57% have 10 articles or less, and 25% have only 1 or 2 articles.

2291:

Well, not sure why it is "disappointing" as I had already explained above,

2262:

How readers are helped by dumping a 111 page category into a cat with : -->

1756:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

1524:

to refer the architecture by some name other than that of the architecture:

1279:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

880:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

742:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

497:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

240:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

67:

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories.

4470:-controlled South Vietnam, or territory held by the several groups of the 2755:. You seem to continue to dismiss my arguments with incorrect assertions. 4878: 4184: 4180: 4155: 3099:

By sub-dividing a large category on the basis of a defining chaacteristic

621: 565:, as this is the official name the AFC gives to the club (as can be seen 4450:

entity between is split between Ukrainian-controlled area and DPR, then

2259:

How readers are helped by having 3 cats in each case, instead of one cat

4307:

Any way you look at it, these populated places are actually located in

1424: 1412: 3557:. Is this discussion really going to rewrite the policy in that area? 3115:

players in an undifferentiated set of 930. How does that help readers?

3111:

However, it currently has two subcats by sport: soccer and basketball.

4312: 3881:

per BHG, and the large number of articles within the categorisation.

3708:

https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/combinations-permutations.aspx

3173:

without intersecting any attributes which are not already intersected

2367:

So if e.g. they played in two countries, it means 3 fewer categories.

1535: 1005: 834:

Unlikely to ever be expanded into a category with multiple articles.

4154:

should be included in Knowledge (XXG), the question is whether e.g.

2757:

Assertions are still simply false. Look again at the 3 merge targets

2197:

intersection; it's a better handling of an existing intersection. --

2349:, I'm sorry, but you still seem have not read what I have written. 1529: 434:

Once a category is empty, it can be nominated for speedy deletion.

3415:

Category:American expatriate soccer players in the United Kingdom

3367:

Category:American expatriate soccer players in the United Kingdom

2910:

by that logic, let's SUBCAT even further, say by position (so to

2541:

because the player is an expat; but there is no bar to diffusing

2388:

Category:American expatriate soccer players in the United Kingdom

1889:. These types of triple intersection categories are unnecessary ( 4505:

legitimacy of any of these entities, I compare this category to

4459: 4455: 1225:

for now. Still in a next nomination we may discuss the possible

4452:

where exactly on the map do you place the limit between the two

3697:

Or we can combine them two at a time, as Cat:AB, Cat:AC, Cat:BC

3646:

Category:American expatriate sportspeople in the United Kingdom

3624:

Category:American expatriate sportspeople in the United Kingdom

3440:

Category:American expatriate sportspeople in the United Kingdom

2413:

Category:American expatriate sportspeople in the United Kingdom

3365:

may well lead to the creation of many sibling categories like

2729:). There's no reasons why soccer players can't be the same. -- 1702:

for now. Still in a next nomination we may discuss a possible

1520:

These reasons have caused all the four Linux distributions in

4821:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

4666:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

4415:

I grant you, categorization of this type does smack a bit of

3821:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

3165:

Please can you address the actual issues I have raised here:

2091:

are unreasoned statements of opinion, not reasoned arguments.

1672:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

1620:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

1195:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

1166:

to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

2877:

category by sport, because it will usually create a set of

1980:

is not needed and shouldn't be promoted (this just leads to

1217:

Ok, the proposed title indeed follows the convention set by

569:, in both the text below and the (albeit blurry) image, and 2529:

If you look at again, you will see that it a non-diffusing

2459:

etc. Same with baseball: see e.g. 6 by-country subcats of

2148:

be divided using a defining characteristic doesn't mean it

1467:

The proposed title is just following the convention set by

1102:

The proposed title is just following the convention set by

5070:

Category:People held at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp

3998:

Category:Populated places in the Donetsk People's Republic

3947:

Category:Populated places in the Donetsk People's Republic

3108:. If we include its subcats, there are in total 930 pages. 2444:

So that's 3 categories instead of 7. Your assertion that

411:

PS - if consensus is to delete, you'll want to get rid of

5135:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

4948:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

4466:-controlled areas of Cambodia after their 1979 downfall, 4435:) yet we categorize it as being "in Northern Cyprus". -- 3926:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

3553:

that were suggested by Julio. Triple intersections are a

3234:

Category:American expatriate basketball people in Germany

3078:

How does it help readers to have such narrow categories?

2873:

Note that I don't in general think it's wise to subcat a

1728:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

1427:. It's not an architecture, despite its misleading name. 1251:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

852:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

676:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

469:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

212:

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion.

3700:

Or we can take them one at a time as Cat:A, Cat:B, Cat:C

2951:

Category:American expatriate soccer defenders in Germany

2912:

Category:American expatriate soccer defenders in Germany

2492:

Maybe you didn't catch what I wrote. Categories such as

4877:

Per Marco's rationale above. The question of whether

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Category:Expatriate sportspeople in the United Kingdom

3409: