Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2011 June 28

326:. Looking at this and the Kuwait proposal (June 26 page), and many previous discussions about these country/people intersections, I suggest there is a need for a wiki-wide policy on what the intended meaning of each phrase. If a notable (British, American etc) person happens to have been born in Singapore/Kuwait, and that fact has no relevance to their notability, is there, or should there be, policy saying this does not merit inclusion in a category? Until then I can't see a way to decide these two nominations. And if there is policy on the use of each of these "people from X" "Y people" "Emigrants to Z" etc etc, maybe a link to the policy/guideline could be made in to a template and posted on each category page concerned. 3758:

There is absolutely no reason why Knowledge (XXG) should use different terminology for Australia than it uses in the rest of the world - i.e. Association Football. The move to use "soccer" here comes across to me as nothing less than an attempt by fans of other football codes to tell fans of association football what their sport must be called! Even if "soccer" is used by a majority of Australians - it still wouldn't be right to ride roughshod over the views of the official body and the fans of football. Note: I am not an association football fan, I have only been to one game in my life. I prefer Aussie Rules and Rugby Union. I just don't think it is right to dictate to other sports what their name should be. --

3450:. The sport in discussion is the No.3 ball game here behind both, and as HiLo and Mattinbgn correctly state, its own fans insist on calling it "football" (often because many of them - not surprising in an immigrant nation - are from countries where it is called "football".) The associations here do have names with Football in them (e.g. "Football Federation Australia"), but *no-one* uses "association football" here, even though it's known by anyone with an etymological understanding that the word "soccer" derives from "association". This is one case where international consistency is not needed - the "Aus soccer" category can happily belong to the "world football" category without either needing to compromise. 2833:- as it should remain for those nations, where there is no ambiguity as to what sport you are referring to - but in some countries where other codes of football are (more) prominent (Australia, Ireland, NZ, SA, USA, Canada are the ones that spring to mind) then I feel they should be disambiguated by the sport's full name, and become 'Xish/Xian association footballers'. 'Xish/Xian association football players' is also fine, but never 'football players'. I would advise you to stay well away from 230:). That is not what this category' current page is (as described at the top of the page). It would mean revamping the whole category tree for people and their relationship to countries. As its purpose is stated and its being used, it is just for expats in Singapore (and perhaps one or two stateless individuals - see next below) 3179:; until and unless that happens, however, renaming these categories to "soccer players" would make them inconsistent with the rest of the category tree. In short, while I see your point, shouldn't a change from "association football" to "soccer" start with the top-level article and category? Thanks, -- 3999:

Strewth! Does that we mean we have to go through all this again somewhere else? I wish Knowledge (XXG) had a better way of preventing the promulgation of nonsense. That new discussion has already had one silly post (the only one opposing) acting as if a handful of purely Sydney based media outlets IS

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Thanks for agreeing with me that Mattinbgn is wrong. We DO have plenty of soccer clubs. And it's NOT an informal name, nor derogatory. (I note that you didn't discuss the legal aspects of the use of the name.) I haven't yet seen a sane reply to the point that anyone trying to call the round ball game

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Agreed. This outside nomination - which I should note was made entirely in good faith by the nominator in line with normal category naming processes, but without knowledge of the local circumstances - has kind of exposed what is actually rather a mess and needs to be fixed. I'm in agreement with HiLo

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to Australian soccer players. There are already too many footy codes in Australia and as association is not the norm for this one, it makes it less linguistically natural for native speakers of Australian English. There is Aussie rules football, Gridiron football, Touch football, Rugby league often

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the formal name of the sport and is now used only in an informal sense. The vast majority of association football fans in Australia call the sport simply "football". Fans of other codes (which, to be fair is the majority) call the game "soccer" and increasingly this is used only in a derogatory way.

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said. The FFA changed its name because it wanted to bring the name into line with FIFA naming conventions, and an effort to try to get Australians to use the world name for the sport. (This is an example of Australia trying to align with the world instead of the USA.) The usage of football has not

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I don't intend to propose a "football"-to-"association football" change for any of the European categories, except perhaps Ireland and Northern Ireland, but your comment is helpful regarding the need (or lack thereof) of a "footballers"-to-"football players" change. Based on the response here and at

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Rename to "soccer players", obviously. More confusingly this the notion that elsewhere on Knowledge (XXG), calling soccer soccer is "POV" or an "agenda", and can get you blocked. Of course, the only agenda stems from when someone at Soccer Australia woke up one morning and decided they been calling

3346:, I will go through the categories again and nominate them all to be changed to use "soccer". Also, if someone initiates a discussion at the article's talk page, I agree that it would make sense to wait for the result of that discussion before processing any more categories within the category tree. 2990:

I'll give you an example that puts that one in perspective. When the West Coast Eagles play a game at Subiaco Oval, the entire train system goes into meltdown, whereas I usually find out about Glory games after the fact. And rugby gets completely ignored, even though we have a team in the Super 14

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so that its usage matches that of the rest of the people from categories. 'People from' was chosen since being born in a place is not considered to be notable in that persons life, in most cases. Citizenship is not a function of this category tree. If there is a need to categorize citizenship,

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that doesn't make sense. The category description doesn't make sense; but it is for people born in Singapore who are not citizens, so it would include stateless people born in Singapore, which would not be expats. Expats in Singapore would be people from elsewhere found in Singapore. People from

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club name. That makes it pretty formal and, since the name is the choice of the clubs themselves, hardly a derogatory term. Now, I've already said most of this before, and regard people who ignore truth posted by others while talking nonsense themselves as really pushing a silly (and just plain

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Perhaps, but it would leave unresolved the larger issue of what to do with the rest of the category tree. Whatever happens in this discussion will affect only a very small percentage of Australia-related soccer/football pages. The comments in this CfD suggest that a wider discussion is needed,

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and looking over the archives of the requested moves that got them to such titles, it looks like it would cause unnecessary drama to try and move the articles to their common name. As category titles should follow the relevant articles, I guess this CfD makes sense and the categories should be

656:. This is the supracategory page for some cat pages that were upmerged piece-meal earlier this year, but a number still remain (the subcategoris for this category). The argument to upmerge is that people by ethnic descent should not be subdivided by (broad) occupation, that to do so violates 2946:

Football only means AFL in one part of Australia - which tends more often than not to refer to that sport as "Rules". In Sydney, Perth, or Brisbane, football means either association football or one of the forms of rugby. Victoria, seen as a fraction of the world, both in terms of area and

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Actually all national level categories are except for the two that are soccer players are either footballers or associaiton footballers. There is no national level category that is Association football players. There does not seem to be any strong precedent. The higher up categories use

2574:). The question whether to use "association footballers" or "association football players" is a bit more difficult, in my opinion, and so I am bringing these categories here for discussion. Subcategories will be speedily renamed, as needed, after consensus is reached in this discussion. -- 3393:

The sport is actually generally called "football" by the vast majority of its fans and "soccer" by those who are fans of the other three codes - but yes the latter outnumber the former. You know this and your hyper-partisan position and borderline trolling should be declared up front. --

3892:. The only countries which use the word soccer at the top level division are Canada and U.S. (inc. American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico), and N.Z. and a few Pacific islands like Niue and Palau. PNG is also migrating to using football instead of soccer. South Africa previously used 2354: 296:

as nominated. Having looked at the contents of the category, I have to say that I think the nominator is on the right track here, and that the oppose comments above are a little bit off-track. People who are not Singaporean who are "from Singapore" can simply be categorized in

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Singapore are not expats when they are in Singapore. Expats from Singapore would be Singaporean people outside of Singapore... Not everyone in Singapore is an expat, so even if you only included people in Singapore in the from category, it would not be the same set of people.

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If the consensus in this discussion is for the second choice, then I will write a test nomination, using a small sample of the c. 220 "footballers" categories, to propose a change from "footballers" to "(association) football players" on a wider scale. 20:04, 28 June 2011

2700:... and quite a bit of sanitizer, too. :) I was planning on addressing the NZ tree (by the way, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland trees are not in much better shape) after I completed my pass through the Australian tree, but I'm not even sure where to begin: 450:. Some kind of rationalisation is required. Neither Cotswold as a political distiction nor Cotswolds as a geographic distinction is sufficient to addess the fact that most people see the Cotswolds in a more holistic way that includes the places, people and the land. 3408:

Weird. You just virtually agreed with what I said, then called me a troll. Is that reportable as abuse? At all the Victorian schools I have taught at, city and country, the round ball sport is called soccer, by everybody, obviously including those who play it.

2858:, I am happy to leave the "footballers" wording alone. Also, the categories for those countries where "football" is the dominant usage appear to be in good shape; it's mainly the Australian, Irish, NZ and SA category trees which are in need of cleanup. -- 3513:

Introducing a fourth term into the category tree is probably only going to make things worse and I don't think a discussion on just three low level categories is really the place to (re)set convetion. The starting point really needs to be the article

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is a combination of citizenship and occupation. However this category would not be limited to expatriates and so the rename would just confuse its contents. This is especially true since Singapore has not been an independent country for most of its

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You're absolutely right about the difference in usage: "(association) football players" is used by most higher-level categories and "(association) footballers" is used by all but a few national-level categories. There is one national-level category

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referred to as footy in NSW and Queensland. Yes, the national organisation has football in the name but that was to bring the name into conformity with FIFA practices and the usage has not been widely adopted because of linguistic confusion. --

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I'd go with "Association football". The sport's officially called football in NZ, but to a lot of the population, "football" instantly means rugby union. Everyone here would understand Association football though. It's worth checking

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as a whole. I completely agree that usage ought to vary (based on local preferences) between the category trees of different countries, but I can't imagine any reason for usage to vary within the Australian football/soccer category

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listed, just those who are not citizens of Singapore (please check the page nominated). As for stateless people, there may be one or two listed, but they are an anomaly that should not dictate how we approach this category tree.

195:. The people from has no relevance to citizenship. This category is for anyone who has lived a significant portion of their life in Singapore. We have various expatriate and naturalized citizens of place X categories, like 2731:, though, since - as I said - this has been the subject of a low-level edit war in the past. Personally, I'd be tempted to damn the torpedoes and just move the article, but I've been called a "Rouge admin" more than once ;) 2710:

One positive result of these changes, in addition to increased consistency in and predictability of category names, is that many formerly missing links in the 'Association football' tree have been identified and created. --

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is clearly not slang in Australia. It's the common name for the game, and very frequently a formal one. Many legally incorporated clubs playing the game are officially called soccer clubs. In most of the AFL side of the

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It's called Australia (the location these categories are covering), since the AFL is the Australian Football League, which plays Australian Rules Football, which is not soccer (the sport managed by Soccer Australia).

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The issue of the name starting with "Australian football" would be resolved by renaming to one of the two options above, both of which start with "Australian association football". I would support "soccer players"

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in Singapore with no other connection to the place don't need to be categorized as being connected to Singapore at all, since place of birth is not defining. This is nothing that can't be handled by what exists in

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some years ago but without discussion specific to the article at the time. A proper Requested Move discussion on that article, with a bundling of the top level category, would help get some direction on this.

2383:. The wikipedia policy is to avoid acrynyms and abreviations and use the full name in category titles. There are some exceptions to this rule, but this does not seem to be a place to make aan exception. 3286:

are inconsistent in Australia. Achieving some idealistic consistency in Knowledge (XXG) naming conventions must not be allowed to override having Knowledge (XXG) reflect the truth about Australia.

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for obvious reasons. It's the name of their club! I can't speak so much for the rugby/league side of the line, and I don't know where you live, so maybe we see different perspectives. All those

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to Australian soccer players as that is the term used in Australia. The current name with Australian football at the beginning is especially confusing as it looks like players that play both

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I actually learned it at school as one of my primary school teachers was a language enthusiast - learned the origins of a lot of words through him (not *all* of them correct, I might add...)

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renamed. Personally can't bring myself to support though, as it just feels wrong. In regards to the "football players" vs "footballers", I would prefer "footballers", as it is more concise.

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is the current name of this institution, but it is a fairly recent change which explains why the category has the old name, which may have been the current name when the cat was formed.

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Thank you. I was aware that there had been disputes about the naming of the main article but assumed (incorrectly), based on what I perceived to be the stability of the current title (

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should reflect that, as with basketball, lacrosse, and similar sports which use that term? (actually, there seems to be a mish-mash at this level, too. That looks like a LOT of work!)

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to conform to main article. The Cotswolds as a geographic area is larger than the district so the two categories have different purposes so should have noticeably different names.

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still refers to Aussie rules and Rugby league. I think they had a soccer version during the World Cup. Making it worse, association football appears to be an alternative name for

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Australia is not special in this regard. Japan is another country which used to have a league called a Soccer League. Knowledge (XXG) categories for Japan no longer use the word

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Another point not mentioned yet (sigh!). Is there anywhere in the world that talks about "Female football players"? They're "Women's football players" - surely the whole tree of

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since early 2008), that the issue was settled. I am prepared to take care of changes to "soccer" in the titles of Australia-related categories if a consensus to rename forms at

3495:), but below that it dissolves into a mess with many sub-categories using either "football (soccer)" or "association football" and some using "football" on its own. The best is 3619:

Rename all to "Australian association football*" as that is what the Australian professional bodies and players call themselves, and is consistent with the rest of the world.

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Agreed. Nobody calls the game "association football". (I only learnt that name once I started editing here.) The obvious, non-ambiguous, local common name is "soccer".

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wrong) POV, and being downright rude. It's probably time you 1) faced the truth and 2) showed some respect for what others post here, especially when its the truth.

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is not really a suitable venue for changing (again) the convention of the whole category tree. Such discussion belongs at a new CFD for the main category or at

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to try to decide the "footballers"-versus-"football players" issue, since that will affect the national-level categories for women's football players, too. --

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due to the confusion and debate over usage, it is probably best to not only try to standardize the category names but also the relevant article names as well.

3100: 2637: 3095:. These categories should logically be named "soccer players", as that is the common name of the sport in Australia. That said the relevant articles are at 1506:. Considering the clow painters category is so small that it would fall under over-cat there is no justification for this very specific sub-categorization. 616: 1456:. And is it clowns who paint or people who paint clowns? Straight artists of bi clowns? Bi artists of straight clowns? Who's on first? Watt's on second? 3701:: Results: 11,900,000. The soccer usage is much more common. If this requires a name change for articles and categories to be Soccer, I'd support it. -- 795:

etc. (Moreover, listed, with the arguable exception of African-American boxers, are boxers by ethnic descent, not ethnicity - we no longer have however

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The whole category tree does not have to be consistent. And Association is no the term used in Australia. THis is better explained by others below.

3500: 222:?How would it not be limited to expats, as its purpose is stated? Would you be suggesting it be a 'collector category' of sorts for both citizens ( 3588:; it would be better, however, if the requested move was initiated by someone who actually supported it rather than as a procedural nomination. -- 3905: 3379:

is now the name of the game in Australia, because they have decreed it to be so. I cannot see those two groups achieving consensus any time soon.

196: 3658:. The name of the FFA proves that point rather than yours. That an organisation chooses to change its name also does not change the common name. 3504: 3367:

You won't see consensus. You will see editors like myself trying to describe the simple and obvious reality that the sport is commonly known as

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where another sport is called precisely that would be off their brain, so they wisely don't do it. The round ball game is inevitably called

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then another solution should be used. But given that we don't, as far as I know, categorize based on citizenship, why is that needed here?

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Retain the "(soccer)" qualifier as a matter of accessibility for the people interested in the articles on which the category is seen. --

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The change of "football (soccer)" to "association football" is uncontroversial per the usage that has been adopted for Australia (see

3078:. There has been a history of edit warring over the use of "Football (soccer)" and "Association football" in Australian articles. -- 2400:

Agree with Johnpacklabmert; "UNRWA" is ambiguous and readers should not have to click on another page just to see what it stands for.

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Hard to believe, but the phrase "bisexual clown painters" did not exist anywhere on the Internet until this category was created.

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in Australia. This reality for Australia is inconsistent with the rest of the world, so the broader category names incorporating

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would bring this encyclopaedia closer to reporting reality, rather than some politically correct but inaccurate compromise.

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and frankly the tree is all over the place. The immediate sub-categories generally use "association football" (except for

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to "soccer players"; clearly the common term in Australia. Renaming to the ass.foot. terminology would run contrary to

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is, as you noted, the main article, yet the "association football" wording was adopted for the main category in a

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a

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their own sport, league, national team and clubs by the wrong name for decades. Still kudos to them for getting

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for the round ball game. I haven't yet seen or heard a professional body or player in Australia call the game

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redirects to the article about the UN org with the long name. Perhaps what was meant was that it's meaning is

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in Australia, and you will get those fans and administrators of the game who want all Australians to call it

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in Australia" No, the term "association" is used in its general sense in your example, in the same way that

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in England/France etc. refers to the sportspeople as 'association football players' - they are footballers!

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as its overall parent's key article (and quite an edit war over that name, too, IIRC).It also seems to have

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wait for the RM outcome; then either rename or keep the categories here to match the main article location

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to the second choice for consistency with the existing consensus on articles on the sport in Australia.

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lists citizens of Singapore, and this cat lists expats to Singapore (either born in Singapore or not )

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in those situations, by players, fans and the media. Only a very stubborn fool would argue otherwise.

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that the final result should probably be all Australian-centred articles and categories at "soccer".

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Mattinbgn, you are sadly so very, very wrong. Just this morning I was fixing some vandalism at the

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Category:United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East officials

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clubs I speak of, and there are hundreds, would be legally registered and incorporated with a

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in the hope that we can get some wider clarity on this one. For this discussion I suggest we

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and has already been a source of confusion for me (and others). There is already a cagtegory

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2011 March 4#Category:Stroud, Gloucestershire

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You're right, it's not ambiguous at all - it's utterly meaningless to most Australians.

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redirects there and the category under the current name could perhaps be confused with

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Can't the subcategories qualify for 'speedies', if this category goes? Maybe not.

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Submit a broader nomination to cover the main article title and the whole tree

2991:(locally nicknamed the Western Farce :P). Rugby league's viewed as some weird 2367:

United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East

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name, and accommodates the fact that in WA, SA, VIC and TAS "football" means

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I mean expats in Singapore, not from Singapore. Not everyone from Singapore

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playing the round ball game. The people who play the game naturally call it

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