Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 27

4498:

Karen Carpenter, or death from complications of AIDS was defining for Rock Hudson, I would understand. In all of these cases, the cause of death was/has been a prominent part of what has been reported about them. But is that true for most of the individals whose articles are grouped in the sub-categories? Is death by cardiovascular disease defining for former US President Dwight Eisenhower? Is death from myelodysplastic disease defining for Roald Dahl, or death from esophageal cancer defining for Harold Pinter? I'd say, no, disease-related deaths (and their specific sub-categories) were not defining for any of these individuals, or for most of the other individuals whose articles are so categorized. The actor John Wayne led a very public campaign against smoking after his diagnosis with smoking-related lung cancer, and Rock Hudson's diagnosis with and later death from AIDS were widely reported at the time and had an enormous impact on public perceptions of the AIDS epidemic. In their cases, the cause of death is part of what people remember about them. The other group of folks just died of diseases people get when they get old. Everybody dies eventually; the cause of death is not automatically notable/defining.

3039:. I'm unsure whether the terminology - "indigenous" - is even being correctly applied but I'm not a professional anthropologist etc. The "tribes" defined by the government of India may or may not be the equivalent in anthropology to, say, the Aborginal people found in Australia but until we have a really good definition for "indigenous" that is applicable to India, well, my suspicion is that the category you refer to should actually contain far less articles and perhaps none at all (although there may be a case for those who claim 3284:

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Cities formerly occupied by Sweden, Cities formerly occupied by Transylvania, Cities formerly occupied by Brandenburg, Cities formerly in the Kingdom in Prussia, Cities formerly occupied by France, Cities formerly in Congress Poland, Cities formerly in Russia, Cities formerly occupied by the German Empire, Cities formerly in the Generalgouvernment, Cities formerly in the People's Republic of Poland... too much.

2774:. Instead of dealing with the inconsistencies that can arise both in and across articles dealing with such "tribes", it seems sensible to use the government system as a standard for categorisation. This is a test case: there are a few other similarly named categories that could be merged or renamed per my proposed schema. I am prepared to verify the contents post-merge - in fact, it ties in with my current exercise anyway. 4544:, each year may not have many, but the category is unambiguous and the fact documented is noteworthy. nearly all notable humans have their cause of death noted in their obituaries, thus the fact is not trivial, though of course some may see it as such. human civilization documents and honors each human death, esp. the cause of death. I refer you to the film 3412:-- There have been lots of boundary changes in England over the past couple of centuries. I do not think it is useful to try to reflect past geography in categories. An article can explain when and why changes were made. I think I recall an article on places that have ceased to be in Worcestershire. 2923:

a proper name. This is an official government classification system that comprises Scheduled Tribe, Scheduled Caste, Other Backward Classes and Forward Classes. You'll never see those in lower case in the Indian media etc when they are referring to the system and, indeed, often they simply abbreviate

2458:

Mountaineering is a type of climbing. The category "climbing and mountaineering-related lists" is akin to a hypothetical "swimming and breaststroke-related lists" category. Most of the category contents are related to mountaineering, but I think the broader category "climbing" is better in this case.

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Not sure I follow what you mean. If you were to say that death by aplastic anemia due to radiation poisoning was defining for Marie Curie, or death by poisoning was defining for Socrates, or death from lung cancer was defining for John Wayne, or death from complications of anorexia was defining for

3580:

that would be useful categorization (such as Steamworks-enabled game, Steam Workshop games, etc.) just being available on Steam is equivalent of building a catalog of what products a retail sells (eg this is a stone's throw away from something like "Amazon.com products") This is not necessary nor

3242:

I think it might be better to categorize according to both former and present county (though that might lead to cumbersome category names), but I personally find the category helpful in sorting out the shifting county boundaries, and I would like this kind of category extended to other counties in

4458:: "this form of overcategorization also applies to grouping people by trivial circumstances of their deaths, such as categorizing people by the age at which they died or the place of death.... Even though such categories may be interesting to some people, they aren't particularly encyclopedic." 3325:)? Anybody who just pauses to think how many times administrative lines on maps have been altered during the millenia, in literally tens of thousands of administrative units, will immediately realise the horrendous path such a category tree would lead us down. Kill this nonsense at infancy. -- 3283:

we cannot categorize places based on their former jurisdictions...nearly every large European city would end up being in dozens of categories: Warsaw, Poland, would be in categories: Cities formerly in the Duchy of Masovia, Cities formerly in the Kingdom of Poland, Cities formerly in the

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and tribe. Sources often vary in how they describe a particular community. In the case of tribes, you might also find them described as a caste, a gotra or a clan (although gotra is the pretty much synonymous with that). The variation - and there are others - is huge and often there are

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the whole tree. This is a well-defined category tree grouping an important biographical parameter. It is normal to include cause of death in a biographical article when known and documentable. Whether or not the cause of death is to be considered trivial is a matter of

4405:

There are some bots that have been able to tag the categories. I have been away from WP for awhile though, so I'm not sure what the current status of those procedures are. I believe that these categories are mainly container categories; they are not intended to have

2900:

per nom. We bow to local usage by English-speaking countries. Since India has English as an official language, is the government of India feels that "Scheduled Tribe" should be capitalized we should do it. Anyway this is more or less a proper name, so we should

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to do with what I said. And secondly, between this conversation and the fact that instead of following proper process you've spent a big chunk of today already jumping the gun to create a bunch of new categories that you first proposed in a renaming discussion

654: 4623:, &c. Before we decide to dismantle one part of the "cause of death by country tree", we should be talking about what to do with the rest of it. At the same time, the notability for most people is not the particular disease from which they died. 376:

which has a lot of musical specific sub-cats, but there the connection of the song to the musical in question is usually one of creation for use in the musical. I would support removal of any song in that category that did not originate in a

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At what point does WHERE a song is played and/or performed become notable? There is a reasonable argument that a list of the songs performed can be added to the main article, but seriously folks, what use a separate article or category?

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to SC. ST, OBC and FC. However, everyone here seems to be missing the bigger point: I am proposing a merger - the capitalisation issue is less significant that us being able to categorise in some sort of sensible manner. The creator of

3875:: You haven't really said why it is useful - in fact, I would think the lists you mention would largely make the category redundant. For a list of steam games, Steam (or Valve, note these lists are not in the category discussed but in 3627:– I love me some Steam, but I don't see that the category does anything useful besides organizing by retail source, which we shouldn't be doing. I also agree that the idea for a Steam Worship category in particular would be useful. — 1494:

The main page does not show how to do it with ONE edit. To oppose fixing an error because the error exists elsewhere is meant as a JOKE, right? If you like consistency more than correctness then go and propose renaming the others.

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I would posit the connection is notable if the songs were explicitly written to be used in the movie. That is what is going on with the two parent trap songs we have under discussion elsewhere, but that is not what is going on

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but that article uses the form "Scheduled Tribe" in the opening line. There is a lot of work needed to get consistency, and it does not help when people treat India as a non-English speaking area where we can ignore local

3451:

I would support listifying. It would solve the problem that some of these articles are on wards that are made up of vilalges that were in Derbyshire at one point, but the wards that the articles are on were never part of

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nominate many others. True, they weren't all put together in one nom. And true, ChemTerm is being neddlessly snippy. But the intension is good. ChemTerm, learn some manners, you'll catch more flies with honey. PS I

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the "Culture by nationality and city" subcategories, I would support that, as it reduces potential ambiguity about what's intended for the exact reason that you describe — but if you want to treat this particular one

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but haven't had the heart to raise the matter. I'm in enough squabbles as it is, right now. One of the difficulties is that, particularly in northern India (of which Rajasthan is a part), many groups claim the

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to follow the proper procedure to get it done — you don't get to take shortcuts just because the process is a bit more complicated than you'd like it to be, or to demand that other people do the work for you.

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many of these articles are on things that are not villages at all. Categorizing places by all the 2nd-levl country subdivisions they have been in is a potential nighmare causing plan, and not really advised.

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tree (i.e. "Culture by nationality and city") takes precedence over a "Categories by city in country" tree in determining the correct format for subcategory names. If you'd like to propose a mass renaming of

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already explains quite clearly how to propose a batch nomination that applies to multiple categories at once, so there's nothing for me to explain since the information is already available to you.

203: 4548:, where the killer is identified because he DIDNT ask how the person died, and the detective KNEW that the first question asked by everyone upon hearing of someones death is "how did they die?". 5095:

This is what they are or mainly are. In the event of a slight deviation the offender can be disciplined (or removed, whichever is deemed the more appropriate action). This would then slot into

2946:

Good point. I had not noticed that the destination category does exist. In that case we definantly should merge and not tinker with the current Scheduled Tribes cat. I believe there is also

2814:- The Government of the Indian Union does not define capitalization of English words in the English Knowledge (XXG). The EU capitalizes Member State all over the place, still the WP article is 152:(no matter how memorable for some). "The Power of Love", "Back in Time" and "Doubleback" can be upmerged to the parents but the others don't need to be in these categories as non-defining. -- 42: 37: 3430:

I would consider this a satisfactory solution. There really needs to be some easily understood presentation of these changes, and I'm not wedded to categories as being that presentation.

4768:. When I first saw "area" I thought it meant different types of culture. "Region" clarifies this as being different parts of the world and the content of the category seems to relate to 4343:. I'm also not sure how this form of categorization would be useful to readers, particularly since most of the daughter or grand-daughter categories contain just a handful of members. 3047:

etc. But it is all probably a topic best dealt with in another nomination, if ever I can summon the willpower. I'm a bit dis-spirited with the sniping going on elsewhere at present. -

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On the other hand, the Government of the Indian Union certainly does define the capitalization of the names of its designations and classifications. Not every U.S. representative is a

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be renamed in the proposed format instead, we're left with the question of which parent should take precedence over the other one — and normally the naming convention from a

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Response to JPL. This was why I used the words "WHERE performed" - specifically to avoid including songs written or performed FOR... Other things I nearly wrote came under

2444: 1320:. 1) The category does not include Italian culture outside Italy. 2) The subcategories do not restrict the topic to Italian culture, there are simply Culture in Foo. 810:

No Spanish culture in Latin America or France. Instead there could be English culture in Barcelona. All the cities here are in Spain. This is a by country category.

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is well thought out. How can we call Hindi people non-indigenous when Hindi culture developed in India? In the case of India I think the whole concept is unwise.

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I don't see that the subcategories are useful either. I am new at categories procedures. Is there a bot that can delete the tree, or is everything manual here?

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which is basically a culture category, so the current name is less than clear. Also, I not only does Italy have large immigrant communities in some parts, but

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should offer plenty of space to write about music from the franchise. Categorizing songs by soundtracks invariably leads to clutter; is it really notable that "

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descent in the south). I think people may be confusing indigenous/ethnic group/tribe/caste etc in all sorts of inconsistent ways and it might be better to use

3343:, and then also having categories for all the various first-level sub-national entities that Poland has had over the last century. This is truly a nightmare. 3365:

I agree would create many, many new categories. But in somes cases, wouldn't those things be defining, and demand a category of some kind. We already have

2234:

Note - if Spain, Republic of Ireland, Poland, India, Germany, Italy are renamed, as proposed, then I support renaming all the others that have the same bug.

2088:

Note - if Spain, Republic of Ireland, Poland, India, Germany, Italy are renamed, as proposed, then I support renaming all the others that have the same bug.

1907:

Note - if Spain, Republic of Ireland, Poland, India, Germany, Italy are renamed, as proposed, then I support renaming all the others that have the same bug.

1297:

Note - if Spain, Republic of Ireland, Poland, India, Germany, Italy are renamed, as proposed, then I support renaming all the others that have the same bug.

925:

Note - if Spain, Republic of Ireland, Poland, India, Germany, Italy are renamed, as proposed, then I support renaming all the others that have the same bug.

791:

Note - if Spain, Republic of Ireland, Poland, India, Germany, Italy are renamed, as proposed, then I support renaming all the others that have the same bug.

5283:

per nom. obvious. Locus Award templates now has a parent cat for the award categories, founder, mag, so the template category may not be necessary any more.

1926:

This is about culture in cities of Poland. 1) Not about Polish culture in Canada. 2) Not about Polish culture alone. There can be Jewish culture in Warsaw.

1599:

a proper nomination that dealt with the whole tree instead of singling this one out as an isolated case. If that's not clear to you, that isn't my problem.

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As far as I can find, there are no other former village by county categories for the UK on WP. We don't categorize articles by former attributes either.

21: 4608: 4592: 3883:, steam is not a part of the game, it is just somewhere you can buy it. It is is not a defining feature of Braid any more than Gamestop or Amazon. -- 1430:

If you know how to propose them all with ONE edit, please tell. And 'BTW I don't have to do anything. I could also say, you have to ... but I don't.

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I really don't mind about the caps either way. but it is a sideshow in terms of my proposal. Whoever closes can do whatever they want about that. -

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as a top-level category for the by-country sub-cats. Often individual country categories have a handful of members when part of a larger scheme.

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considerations than its siblings, is not the same thing as "opposing" a fix — especially given that I specifically pointed out that I would

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songs should not be categorized as having appeared in a movie when they were written and recorded 30+ years before the movie was released.

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Firstly, you're misinterpreting if you think "Oppose a fix. WP:ILIKE I rather prefer consistent application of the error everywhere" has

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time and effort to start a separate individual discussion for each category than it would to batch them together from the start, right?

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Italian exclusively (Culture in Rome can have Turkish culture in Rome) nor inclusively (No single content of Italian culture in Canada).

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Knowledge (XXG):Naming_conventions_(definite_and_indefinite_articles_at_beginning_of_name)#Names_of_groups.2C_sports_teams_and_companies

276: 186: 5199: 5147: 4990: 4799: 4646:. I have put a link to this discussion there. (When oh when will people have the good grace to involve actual editors in these CfD? - 4168: 4020: 2947: 2815: 1900: 1010: 554: 4612: 4294: 4143: 2517: 2081: 1290: 784: 520:

The former name is vague and does not directly connect itself to what it is attempting to categorize which are articles relating to

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and some other sub-groups in Italy are not "Italian" by all definitions, so I could see all sorts of problems with the current cat.

5170: 5085: 3184: 3003:, so should the target category also be within that one? If not, then perhaps the nominated category should instead be renamed to 1030:, a better name. Belfast is Northern Ireland, not the Repblic. This is a case where an all-Ireland category seems appropriate. 4908: 4751: 4620: 3780: 2841: 2516:. Well I don’t mind, but I thought that “climbing and mountaineering” would make the coverage of the category unambiguous. As in 115: 5238: 5115: 3340: 1513:

to do it just because it's not possible to do it "with ONE edit", either. If you want the thing to be done, then the onus is on

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I forced his hand via this discussion — and as of right now, as far as I can tell, he still hasn't actually nominated them all.

123: 4948: 3826: 3167: 3004: 2925: 2737: 5256: 5143: 4616: 3393: 2615: 1711: 1056: 5179: 5129: 106: 3302: 4588: 3851: 3846: 3841: 3836: 3831: 3644: 3310: 3069: 3000: 4587:—this sub-tree is part of a wider range of categorisation of cause of death. For New Zealand we have the parent category 2352: 1027: 5292: 5273: 5227: 5210: 5108: 5073: 5001: 4972: 4899: 4827: 4810: 4781: 4743: 4676: 4659: 4632: 4575: 4557: 4532: 4507: 4480: 4467: 4441: 4414: 4400: 4382: 4370: 4352: 4339:- I don't mean to step on any toes by proposing this deletion, but it seems that the category is in direct violation of 4329: 4268: 4196: 4179: 4150: 4120: 4048: 4031: 4002: 3968: 3892: 3863: 3816: 3801: 3784: 3756: 3739: 3722: 3703: 3686: 3659: 3638: 3619: 3593: 3528: 3461: 3439: 3421: 3398: 3352: 3334: 3293: 3275: 3258: 3233: 3214: 3158: 3081: 3056: 3021: 2982: 2959: 2937: 2910: 2892: 2867: 2853: 2827: 2802: 2783: 2729: 2657: 2638: 2603: 2533: 2508: 2491: 2468: 2436: 2364: 2343: 2322: 2305: 2288: 2265: 2243: 2206: 2185: 2164: 2147: 2128: 2097: 2060: 2048: 2039: 2018: 2001: 1972: 1954: 1935: 1916: 1879: 1858: 1842: 1833: 1816: 1791: 1734: 1716: 1687: 1665: 1648: 1622: 1608: 1582: 1568: 1541: 1527: 1504: 1489: 1444:

Let me make this clear: it is more important that this category be named consistently with its sibling subcategories in

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No Belfast here. No Irish culture in Canada. But in turn there can be Polish culture inside Culture in Dublin (city).

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There are enough expatriate Spanish communities from the Franco era alone to make it too easy to misuse this category.

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is an "an idiotic or incompetent person" so there is potential for all sorts of embarrassment if left as it is. --

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I think you are a clown. Oppose a fix. WP:ILIKE I rather prefer consistent application of the error everywhere.

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Of course! Dzienkuje bardzo!. BTW, Germany and Italy use Culture in Cityname. Poland is split between in/of.

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rename main, Hugo, Nebula, Nobel, and WFA categories; upmerge Austrian, BSFA, Locus, and Italy categories.

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And thirdly: I wish you would go and play RFC with your admins instead of Opposing fixes on joky grounds.

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This category is effectively redundant at the moment as I moved all remaining books that were novels to

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Each error can be fixed on its own. I don't need to look at the others, to see that this one is buggy.

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BTW, the capitalisation - Scheduled Tribes - is per Government of India practice. The PDF can be seen

632:"The Muppets" per my esteemed colleagues whose floppy felt bodies are dangling just above these words. 5284: 4549: 4524: 3776: 3748: 3453: 3369:

for places formerly in the Roman Republic or Empire. I supposed the alternative to list them, as in

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There are way too many ethnic Germans outside of Germany for this to ever be anything than ambiguous.

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There's no way to do it "with ONE edit" — and you don't particularly have any prerogative to simply

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the whole tree. Categorization by cause of death, at least diesease-related deaths, is trivial.

4175: 4027: 3669:. Steam is a store and listing store's sold products is inappropriate. Per nom. We already have 550: 408: 1670:

Um, I didn't "finally" get anything; this is exactly what I've been saying from the start, and

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

358:. However since we do not have any category related to the film to put it in, we don't do so. 306: 229: 5044:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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really useful, it helps us organise the pages, we also have other helpful articles including:

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Lowercasing the "T" in "Tribes" should be part of a group nomination, if folks want that.--

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Another example of a song that might be wroth categorizing by its link to a film would be

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which despite its name sounding like more of a people cat is really more like this cat.

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Actually the situation would be worse. A more equaivalent set of categories would be

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Fair enough, I presume this renaming scheme affects other similar categories, too? --

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so that the "bug" can be fixed across the board. You do realize that it's taking you

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It's not trivial though, as it is defining to the individuals within each sub-cat.

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not about Spanish culture found throughout the former Colonial Empire's cities --

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on the subject. What is the point of adding yet another list on the same matter?-

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where it should probably be (I don't think it's even a navigational box anyway).

4651: 4454:. However, that was a secondary rationale. The primary rationale, as stated, is 4433: 3884: 3793: 3431: 3250: 3048: 2929: 2859: 2794: 2775: 2500: 675: 574: 527: 522: 2499:- some of the contents and subcats would not be appropriate under that name. -- 1476:

with this category while leaving all of the others alone. And the main page at

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would link properly, and explain which are original songs and which aren't. --

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Thanks to all who have pointed out my admitted error in the interpretation of

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per nom. We generally use x in/of/from y forms for all sub-national entities.

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format rather than the proposed one. So unless you'd like to propose that they

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agrees with me, btw, but has said so on their talk page rather than here. -

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