Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 29

4223:. WE certainly need an article like this. I know that we do not like "current" categories, because they are liable to become obsolete. The succession of a person to a throne is such a notable event that some one will almost certainly edit the article and update the category. Heirs apparent (if adults) will typically play a significant role in their country's affairs; their status as heir apparent is the very purpose of their existence - that they expect to inherit the throne on a parent's death. When Chalres succeeds, his article will be altered and recategorised to reflect that; if he dies as Prince of Wales, the category will be changed to his being a Prince of Wales who failed to succeed, and the category we are discussing will be added to the article on Prince William. If this were about the heirs apparent of British dukes, earls and barons, I might be more willing to accept the criticism, though I suspect there are categories for them too and that they in practice get maintained when succession takes place. It is as ridiculous as saying that we should not have found a category for the status of Barak Obama between his election and inauguration. No doubt Mitt Romney has moved from being a presidential candidate to a failed presidentical candidate. 1820:

and people in religious occupations by their religion, but do not apply such affiliations to members of the general public because they are not defining characteristics. Similarly, I would think a cleric convicted of heresy or blasphemy might be worthy of note, but mere thieves, fraudsters, spies, sodomites, etc. can be found in any line of work (and will represent a small proportion of those people. Even among bankers and politicians). What does it matter if a murderer's day job is electrician, football player, or Congressman? It is for this reason we have such few crime/occupation categories; these, which are largely the work of a single contributor; categories for law enforcement; and

631:(edit conflict - please do not ask me to comment and then start editing again) Your complaint appears to be that the categories are being misused. Many high level categories are somewhat vague in scope and may vary in scope between categories. I do not know enough of the history of Tennessee or New York to be able to judge whether particular articles should be included in sub-cats. It may be that some subcategories are inappropriately named, but that implies renaming them, not deleting the parent. Perhaps the Cherokees would fit in 3825:-- The straight forward reading of the main article makes it clear that this is an ethnic group with its own language and a diaspora through the Middle East. The complaint appears to be that the article all relate to a period before the they were overwhelmed by Russian imperialism. Their homeland is now de facto part of Russia (though Georgia may dispute that), so that a Russian ethnic category is appropriate. However, it might also be appropriate to categorise them as an an 3472:-- I cannot believe that the origin of a placename is a significant characteristic of the place. It is a trivial intersection, but an appropriate subject for an article, though not a category. We have recently had a discussion on Norwegian toponyms (which was deleted) and this was followed by a similar discussion on other toponym categories. These were not being used to like articles on toponymy - placename studies, but dab-pages dealing with placenames and surnames. 3275:-- I cannot believe that the origin of a placename is a significant characteristic of the place. It is a trivial intersection, but an appropriate subject for an article, though not a category. We have recently had a discussion on Norwegian toponyms (which was deleted) and this was followed by a similar discussion on other toponym categories. These were not being used to like articles on toponymy - placename studies, but dab-pages dealing with placenames and surnames. 3039:-- I cannot believe that the origin of a placename is a significant characteristic of the place. It is a trivial intersection, but an appropriate subject for an article, though not a category. We have recently had a discussion on Norwegian toponyms (which was deleted) and this was followed by a similar discussion on other toponym categories. These were not being used to like articles on toponymy - placename studies, but dab-pages dealing with placenames and surnames. 2823:-- I cannot believe that the origin of a placename is a significant characteristic of the place. It is a trivial intersection, but an appropriate subject for an article, though not a category. We have recently had a discussion on Norwegian toponyms (which was deleted) and this was followed by a similar discussion on other toponym categories. These were not being used to like articles on toponymy - placename studies, but dab-pages dealing with placenames and surnames. 2616:-- I cannot believe that the origin of a placename is a significant characteristic of the place. It is a trivial intersection, but an appropriate subject for an article, though not a category. We have recently had a discussion on Norwegian toponyms (which was deleted) and this was followed by a similar discussion on other toponym categories. These were not being used to like articles on toponymy - placename studies, but dab-pages dealing with placenames and surnames. 1597:. There is no relationship between "clergy member" and "convicted of a crime". This overly wide net lumps together murderers and trespassing peace activists without regard to the specifics. The only reason for these categories is the belief that it's somehow worse that a holy person has committed a crime and categories can't be based on such a subjective opinion. Delete and merge as nominated to keep the articles within the "convicted" category structure. 569:-- weak rename for preference -- This is a high level category that should have no articles. The contents of such categories are inevitably somewhat disparate: what links the people of New York and Syracuse, Sicily is that the inhabitants or theri ancestors had come from elsewhere to colonise a new land; in one case from England and the other Greece. 2168:. It would seem that Climate change skepticism is a sub-cat of this category, but there is no reason to assume that all Environmental skepticism is Climate change skepticism. I really do not see why we could not have both categories, at least if we have enough articles, with the Climate change one being a sub-cat of the more large Environmental one. 3808:. It looks like you're basically making a good argument for emptying the category, which would result in a C1 speedy deletion if we were't prohibited from emptying categories for this purpose without a CFD. I agree with your reasoning; none of these people belong here, so it should be deleted unless we can come up with some Russian Abazins. 635:, which might be a more appropriate category. We had a discussion on that category recently, when it was suggested it should be merged into a Virginia category; I suggested that it should not. I provided a definition of a colony. If the content does not match, I would suggest renaming or purging, not deleting. 366:- What's next? Town people/People of towns? And if these are supposed to be "people associated with one or more colonies or colonial eras", then it should also be deleted per the many deleted "associated with" cats. And there's also that not all colonisation is anywhere near the same. With that in mind, 4146:

Further, there is a difference between inherently transient categories, such as "heir apparent", and permanent categories, such as "New York Yankee" or "Nobel laureate." When (if) Prince Charles becomes king, it makes no sense to maintain his heir apparent status, because as king it was apparent that

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Calling the contents of this category "hatred of science" and even more referring to climate change skepticism specifically as such is entirely unjustified. There are climate change skeptics who accept science and because of that have major skepticism about the claims about man-made climate change.

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to convict and occupational categories. An intersection of characteristics should be notable, or at least there should be a relationship between the two such that one helps interpret the other. Otherwise, it is just random information. For example, we categorize politicians by their political party,

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Well, I think it's pretty obvious, since I think the categories should be deleted, that the link is for the former purpose. "It's useful" is a crap argument. At least one person finds every article and category "useful" otherwise the article or category wouldn't have been created in the first place.

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In many cases, the only category for the article that reflects the fact that the person belongs to the clergy is this criminal clergly one. At the very least, the articles must be merged into at least two other categories: one criminal one; one clergy one. These nominations must be done with much

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First off we categorize things by what they are, not what they are named. Secondly the link between being named after a place and the specific English county it was historically in is weak at best. Latly, in this case, the articles do not support being so categorized since they never mention how

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the argument that a category of "current" is hard to maintain is hardly convincing. We maintain articles on living (and deceased) people all the time - changing a category is no more burdensome than adding or modifying any other information. Maintaining a list that is separate from the categories

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The fact that places were named after other places in a particular county in England (which is not even always actually true, and even less often stated in the articles so categorized) is not enough to make places have anything in common. The first of these categories currently is functioning as

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I do not believe your assertion is correct. While I did not check every article in the structure, every one that I did check includes sources that support the notability of the person separate from the criminal conviction. If an article exists for someone who is notable only for this intersection

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as part of a category tree that does categorize places by what they are named after. The tree should be felled, if indeed based on valid reasoning, not certain, particularly rather main, branches cut off. Agree though that some, but not all, of the places listed should not be, either because the

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I would advise against use of the toally POV-pushing term "climate change deniers". That is a totally false term and is trying to equate them with people who deny proven historical events, which is obviously not the same thing, since man-made climate change is not a proven historical event, let

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No one ever proposed that the Tennessee category should be merged into the Virginia category. The proposal was to merge it to the North Carolina category. That said, it still remains that your attempt to define what all sections of this category mean fails, suggesting that it is in fact just a

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because this is one of those "pages within Knowledge which are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more—disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects, for instance—so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion; for these types of pages, usefulness is a valid argument?" Thanks.

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It does look like it may come to that given the discussion here, and I have no problem with that. My main concern was having a category to house people who are the climate change deniers, and conspicuously identifying them as such. There are people who are skeptical of environmentalists and

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In many cases, the only reason the individual is notable and thus has a WP article is the fact that they are both clergy and criminals, otherwise they would just be ordinary clergy and ordinary criminals. Since we have such articles, this category is a necessary navigation tool for our

1726:. I'm not sure that the fact you find utility "crap" is relevant to this discussion. My assertion was not that this category might be useful again to someone, someday, but rather that this category is likely to be useful to a large number of current and future readers. This is a 1801:

The intersection is questionable to begin with, as Winston and Lambert state. The other problem is "clergy": it is being broadly construed to include any person for whom religion figures strongly in their notoriety, even though some of these people aren't technically clerics.

2633:- This is clear categorisation by shared name, and should be a list at most, not a category. But in this case, only a single article in the category has a referenced explantion of a Hampshire origin, so I imagine the list would be deleted anyway. -- 4237:

This is not an article, it is a category. Since the various people are in the applicable Heirs apaprent categories for their specific being heirs, I see no reason we need this category. It is no more clear that we need this category than we need

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The problem is that these all are just categorization by the trivial fact of what the origin of their name is. It is not at all a categorization about anything important to the article. Also, as I explained aboove, in many cases these are false

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The fact that we have two opposite connections between the place and being colonial in the category shows that this is just a hodge-podge collection of things by a common name without any clear connection being involved between the various

421:). That at least would seem to deal with the "associated with" issues. Though I think the subcats will need a unified renaming, and possibly may need some pruning in order to meet the new criteria for inclusion into this category tree. - 2144:

This is a more appropriate title. It isn't all claims about the environment, nor all environmentalists that is being called into question. Furthermore, I think this title will be more helpful for people searching for content.

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This is the epitome of subjective argumentation. "Clergy are popularly supposed to be good"? "Good" according to what objective standard? Being convicted of a crime makes one "bad"? Again, by what objective standard? Is a

1915:-- Clergy are popularly supposed to be good. These bad ones constitute a notable intersection. It will be noted that sexual abuse of children by clergy (especially Catholic) has been a significnat issue in recent years. 473:. The category as it currently stands is an odd mix of some categories that are there because the people were in a place when it was a colony, and some that are there because people were in colonies of that place. 3292:

Wiltshire and Westmoreland - This is categorisation by shared name, they only contain 2 articles each, of which only one each make any claim to naming origin, and one of those is not even supported by references.

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shows an attempt to include both people who are clergy and get convicted of a crime and people who are convicted of a crime and later become clergy. This just seems to be too much an attempt to connect unlike

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with a conviction for animal cruelty a "good" person for following his religion or a "bad" person for breaking the law? Is a minister who gets a conviction for rallying against war "good" or "bad"?

3783:. The rest of the contents are already in workable categories. There is no reason to have a category for this specific ethnic group at this time. This is especially true because the contents of 1336: 3850:

except the bio articles are all about people living in the Ottoman Empire and better categorized already. We do not need categories for every possible ethnic group. Most of the contents of

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comes to mind as well. If deleted, we can nominate the subcats (or if someone would like to tag them, they could be adde to this discussion.) I welcome further discussion on all of this. -

1374: 1327: 448:). WHY: the contents consist of 'colony' categories so this new name would better reflect the contents for the purpose of categories: navigation. However, what should be done with the 334: 42: 37: 4060: 4003: 1526: 516:

per jc37 and JPL. There is no conceivable connection between people from 18th century Syracuse New York and people in the 7th century BC from Syracuse, Sicily....just colonials....

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Not only is this categorization by shared name but in many cases it is false categorization. The heading says these should be places named after places in Hampshire. However

1365: 3489:- categorisation by shared name. While in general the appearance of German place-names in the United States may be notable, it is not defining for any individual place. -- 1617: 1517: 1479: 4164:– the cfd linked by the nom (which was a resounding delete) is but one of dozens of cfds which have deleted 'current' (and 'former') categories just like this one. 2514:

not after the place in England. This is a rare case of easily disproving an inclusion because most articles on places do not explain the origins of the place name.

1898:. If the category specified specific charges it would be useful. As it is, it's a hodgepodge of trivial and non-notable charges with very much more serious ones. 4376:. Category had the primary voice actors in it, but that's not allowed since those VAs also do other things. No chance of expansion, contains very few articles. 137:"Categories used for Knowledge administration are prefixed with the word "Knowledge" (no colon) if this is needed to prevent confusion with content categories." 2214:

subcategory here, they can do it at any time. But the hatred of science seems to be multifaceted (belief and funding), so there is a great deal of overlap.

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This category is not about hatred in any way. It would be nice if people refrained from engaging in character assasination of those who disagree with them.

1968:, but the monumental aspect of that scandal is its institutional coverup, and not simply that the perpetrators were priests and brothers. Grouping it with 1023:. With only a discography page and a few songs that aren't even their own, it's too soon for this eponymous category. Navigation is simple enough through 2002:

scandal-curious readers to easily find them. There seem to be 50 some articles here and of course more will continue to be created, given human nature.

2719: 1344: 3791:, except since none of the people in this category were Russian, they are all Ottomans, this can't go there. So the best course is to just delete it. 617:, who was in the Employ of the British East India Company, clearly fits in that category, but his family were also clearly not settlers in a new land. 313: 3150: 349:. This is one 'people of' suggested rename that doesn't fall under a naming convention, I think, and this one does add "semantic precision", I feel. 3584: 3142: 2498: 1458: 3158: 1060:

because he appeared in it. If categorizing performers by performance is a bad idea, categorizing performances by performer is an even worse idea.

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which makes sense for Abazins. Except all the biographical articles in the category are Ottoman people , already in the applicable category

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There needs to be evidence of a specific encyclopedic relationship between "member of the clergy" and "convicted of a crime". There isn't.

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as a defining characteristic of these individuals and an appropriate aid to navigation across articles with this unifying characteristic.

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only have articles, not categories, and considering how many articles we have that really fit here, it seems this category is not needed.

3403:, it is unclear exampltly why it was so named, but it was not because of any connection to Germany on the part of those naming the place. 3056:

Only one article, which contains no claim or justification for its inclusion in the category. Were there more when this was nominated? --

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we categorize articles by what they are, not what they are named. This is a categororization by shared name. To pull up one example

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Another example of why the claim that these categories can be limited to "settlers in a new land or their descendands" comes from

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naming is notable, but none of the categorants is notable for its hampshire-name origin. Better as a list, if sourced properly.

4134:- this proposal is consistent with the outcome of the "Present status" discussion, but I have two objections to that decision: 1881:

there is much reporting on crimes committed by clergy - a notable intersection (as are politicians and crimes, but I digress).

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are supposed to be articles on ethnic groups, and categories or articles on ethnic groups. Categories should generally be in

591:. She was Iroquois, thus her ancestors did not "come from elsewhere to colonise new land". Also about half the contents of 3209: 392: 4029: 535: 2840:

As above, should be a list. But again, only one article actually belongs in the category - the other one was named after

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I'm fine with merging as needed. It honestly didn't occur to me that this could be the sole such category for anyone.

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on same grounds, criminals who become clergymen and clergymen who become criminals are a special breed. —

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the name of the place was chosen. Shared names does not prove that one place was named after the other.

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connection is wrongly assumed or because no mention of there being a connection is mentioned, sourced.

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I personally didn't find it obvious, which was why I asked for clarification, or to put it another way

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Cheshire, as a handful of its articles do make such a claim, and a handful of those are referenced. --

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If a person calls him or herself a "climate change denier", then how is that any kind of POV pushing?

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there is no reason to move it to the overly-specific Algerian War category, which should be deleted.

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This is a category meant together people of various colonies. Most of its subcats have forms like

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I think there were too few people who weighed in on the subject to reach a delete conclusion, and

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the category is obviously from its name broader than just climate. If someone wants to create a

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the main land-owner there in the 1750s (after he bought land from the Onondagas) and his consort

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2026: 1985: 1939: 1861: 1829: 1787: 1705: 1678:, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that link. Are you saying my argument is 1675: 1660: 1598: 1261:

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actually the articles are not on songs, but TV shows. This is as bad as putting Star Trek in

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_November_7#Present_status_categories_for_persons

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has real-world uses outside of Knowledge:GLAM, adding the prefix word is appropriate here.

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category. (You're welcome to disagree, but I don't want my point to be mischaracterised.)

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per nom. We have allowed too many categories not to be properly tagged with "wikipedia".

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was not founded until 1825, but that does not prevent us from having an article called

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categorization by shared name, and that there is no actual continuity among its parts.

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are Cherokees whose families had lived in or around Tennessee from time inmemorial.

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seems to me more error-prone than maintaining a category for each relevant person.

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as this subcat is its only member. Two one-member cats that likely will not grow.

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alone the proven catastrophe that the term "climate-change denier" seeks to imply.

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Not substantial enough branches of the tree, twigs to be cleared. (There is no

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to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

2393:. There is no need to have every possible people executed during x war cat. 1082: 423: 372: 4290: