Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 7

2947:. I have looked at this discussion. One argument is that these are notable. Well if we have an article, then the vehicle is notable. But are the engines? Are the other features included in the package that offered the engine notable and defining? How often is the engine offered in a standalone package? Most commonly it is part of the basic car and hence generally not defining or it is part of a model variation. Again, is that defining for the vehicle? Clearly this is best covered by a list that includes the package options that offered that specific engine. Were the transmission options as important? Some were only available with an aitomatice and others with a stick? Also were the 1970s Mercedes with their undersized 4 cylinder engines defining? How about the 5 cylinder versions offered to try and address the power issues? There is no way a category here can really do justice to the number of cylinders and how and why it was offered so it just becomes a collecting point for too many articles that just happen to share something. While a case can be made that some vehicles are really defined by the number of cylinders in their engines, they are two few and having the categories would require constant cleanup. That is something that has not worked in the past. 3037:

cats for my own car. The car article has 11 categories, all but one seemed sensible, and that one turned out to be because of another model in the same article. Yet the article for its engine has only 2 categories which really told me nothing. But that's not really relevant. Having just look over all the car mag reviews and newspaper review sources (but not say manufacturer press releases, recall orders, etc) on half a dozen modern car (21st century) articles, I note that the cars were not once defined by their cylinders, which actually surprised me. Many reviews didn't mention it, or only referred to cylinder count in a stat block which gave dozens of bits of info, or in a list of how features, price, performance differed over a range of engine choices, or in an 'engine' section of the review. The exception was reviews purely concentrating on something like fuel economy, in which the entire review was more focussed on the engine than the car. Maybe this is a more modern evolution though, I will try and do a more balanced survey later. --

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it up with subcategories. Or just leave it be and don't worry if it's a large category. Number of cylinders is very much a defining characteristic; many legal codes recognize this, along with displacement, as a way of categorizing cars for taxes and regulations. In motorsports formulas, number of cylinders is also a defining characteristic. Number of cylinders figures very highly in the cost-benefit decisions of car engineering, and has dramatic effects on the power curve of a car. More cylinders has benefits, but adds weight, cost, friction and complexity, all else being equal. Complaining that some cars belong to two categories because they had multiple engine options is like complaining that some biographies are classed as both poets and mathematicians. Many, many subjects belong in two or more related categories. No harm in that. --

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technical ability to build six and eight cylinder engines being developed. And in every market other the the US have always been in the minority of production. I note you cite an Australian book in defence. V8 engines did not enter the Australian mass market until 1967 (yes they existed prior to that but only in small numbers in a mere handful of models like the Valiant and the small volume import Customline and Studebaker models) and you cite the conclusion of the era as the 1973 oil crisis. Six years is a very small slice of the history of automobiles. So all I can suggest to you is your refence document is deeply flawed in its conclusions. --

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well-defined by one category, other subjects are well defined by another category. Some articles are members of many categories, none of which perfectly capture the subject. If we tried to enforce such a rigid standard, we'd be left with one and only one category per article, whose definition was identical with its one and only member article. Or we'd delete every slightly flawed category and be left with no categories at all. In fact, these cylinder categories are good enough for a significant number of automotive sources, and that makes them good enough for Knowledge (XXG). --

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engine mounting it is still creating large areas of overlap as multi-generational cars, of which there are many, will have different mounting methods. It is also a relatively obscure method of subdivision as the specificities of how an engine is mounted may be well established within the industry but it would not help the vast majority of Knowledge (XXG) readers who would not have the first clue about such things. It does sub-divide, not not helpfully. Additionally, is the technical variety of the Ford Cortina really comparable to Leonardo da Vinci?

4906:. The category was created by user Kalidasa 777 who was in dispute with user Roger Pearse months earlier over the Mithraic Mysteries article. User roger pearse stopped editing Knowledge (XXG) months earlier. Same user also made repeated accusations of sock puppetry for most of 2011 against the same user. Seems like obvious attack category. It's about a user, not about something of relevance to other users. 2343:

articles. Subdividing brad spectrum vehicles like Holden Kingswood which was available with four, six, eight and rotary engines would be ridiculous forking of an article. (Wankel rotaries brings up yet more categories splits: single, dual, triple, quad rotor engines?) The number of cylinders is a defining characteristic of an engine, not of a car. --

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other random things, including by their colour, or safety rating, or price range, or type of family expected to buy them. There has been no convincing argument that a car model in general (as opposed to a specific instance of that car model) is defined by cylinder count, especially when many cars come with a variety of engines. --

3687:. One of Fildes' paintings (showing a doctor) was used on a famous poster against an American proposal for nationalized health care. But health care doesn't define Fildes' work and it certainly doesn't define him. (This explains why we don't categorize artists by the themes they explored unless that theme is considered a genre) 666:) as incredibly stupid categories (possibly the stupidest I've seen since 2005), potentially unlimited in scope and wholly unnecessary in light of the many, many categories already existing listing people by nationality. Incredible that these have not been CFDed before now. A couple have only one entry; one has 6 entries. Note: 2434:

than the number of cylinders ... but whether we try categorising by one or all of these characteristics, we are left with the same problem: that many production cars are offered in so many different guises that there will be massive category clutter on the articles, and huge overlap. The result is useless for navigation. --

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No, I think cars that aren't well defined this way are more than just rare exceptions. And my argument was that there are many many other features of a car which are used just as often as a defining-looking description by 'a significant number of automotive sources'. Out of curiousity I checked up on

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This is becoming a content based issue, but I take issue with V8s ever being considered the "norm". Fours have always been the norm. It was not always possible to build eight cylinder engines. Four cylinder engine at one point expanded out to 15 litres in capacity to solve power problems prior to the

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To be honest with you, the technicality of the Ford Cortina is equally as important as Da Vinci. This is Knowledge (XXG), isn't it? Don't just delete stuff just because it isn't in the "public interest". Knowledge (XXG) is for finding out about obscure, not-very-well-known things, not just all of the

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I wasn't talking about what OVERCAT doesn't say, I cited two specific examples of what it does say and how it applies here. I now note that that four cylinder engine category has been subdivided further, however it has been done in a manner which does not necessarily help. By subdividing by method of

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We should get rid of the FBI category as well. That is probably the worst of the categories here. It just opens up all sorts of categories by being on short lists, which we avoid like the plague they are. The fact that a previous discussion was in favor of keeping a category that breaks all sorts

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was a qualitatively different beast than the V8. The number of cylinders was a defining characteristic. But the article happens to make more sense if you cover the 6 and the 8 in one place. Hence, overlap between the 6 and 8 cylinder categories. It's a good thing. I really would like to know what is

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for one reason why this argument about how most cars in 2012 are four cylinders is not a good argument for deletion. Even if the majority of cars did fit in one category, so what? Is there some law that says categories must be proportionate in size? If the four cylinder category looks too big, break

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a study of Fildes' work shows that health system is not a good descriptor. Another one of his paintings for example was "The Village Wedding". Even if its one article made sense there would be no point in having this category to hold one article, but it is even worse since the one article is only

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There are also several other defining characteristics of engines by which they could be categorised, such as by fuel (primary petrol/gasoline or diesel, but also LPG and CNG), or by whether they are supercharged or turbocharged. It's arguable that some of these characteristics are more significant

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there is no significance to the intersection of "LGBT" and "chef". If there is disagreement on that point then at the very least the subcats should be merged to the LGBT parent because there is definitely no "gay way" to cook versus a "lesbian way" to cook so the gendered categories are not needed.

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There is also a set of lists of religious leaders by year and another one titled I believe colonial governors by year (not nearly as developed as the national leaders lists). I have spent a lot of time expanding the 16th, 17th and 18th century national leader lists, and some on expanding the 19th

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means of defining the subject according to our sources. A number of editors have taken the position that these categories must be deleted on the grounds that they can name one car or another that isn't well defined by cylinders. But any category could be deleted on those grounds: some subjects are

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After reading all that, I have to agree with BHG and others that engines, not cars, are what should be categorised by cylinders. Also, while, there may be a lot of sources describing cars by their number of cylinders, it is also easy to find plenty of reliable sources defining cars by all sorts of

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per nominator and per the long-standing consensus against "current" categories, which will rapidly go out-of-date. No objection to navigational templates and/or list articles, if anybody wants to create them ... but note that per JPL's concerns, some of these topics may be too rapidly-changing to

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is so broad as to be unworkable and would not object to its deletion. The same argument can be made for 6 and 8. However 16 cylinder? (and others) Those are precisely what categories are good at: they use a "push model" of adding markup to each article (where it's obvious) to indicate a clearly

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As far as comparison with da Vinci, the kind of car people drive is an important part of the lives of millions of people. Da Vinci is trivia in comparison. People care about the differences between cars, on both practical and emotional levels. I'd be happy to cite more sources demonstrating these

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fits into four, six and eight cylinder categories it is hardly defining characteristic. Many of these categories overlap heavily. As far citing that engine configuration is cited in legal codes, so is the number of doors a car has. Are going to have the situation where a car like a Subaru Impreza

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way to categorize cars. There is no best way. Number of cylinders is one way of defining cars, and that's good enough. Cars are members of other categories as well, such as size or body style or fuel type, and each of these may do an adequate but imperfect job of defining the subject. That's how

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But anyway, my answer is that the BMW 8 series is defined by 3 engines. Not 4, not 7. Da Vinci is defined by 14 fields. Not 20, not 100. 14. Fourteen might be a lot, but it's a definite number of categories. The BMW 8 series has 3 engine options, 4, 6 and 8 cylinders. No more, no less. One might

2964:—These categories seem to be filled with makes/models/marques/brands of cars with a shared characteristic. What I can't see is articles about particular automobiles that are defined by the number of cylinders in their engines that would then fit into these categories. For example, the fact that 2721:

Yeah, pretty much every time I get sucked into CfD, which I try to avoid, I run into a deletionist thinking that I find incomprehensible. Sources don't seem matter. The accepted categorization strategies at CfD are novel, i.e., they're original research. Hence my habit of steering clear of this

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You might argue that for the Mustang, and probably not successfully, but such a case for thew differences between a three and four cylinder Daihatsu Charade would definately not be significant enough for different articles. V8 and V10 versions of the Audi R8 would similarly not justify separate

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First of all, you have provided plenty of sources which show that in some cases, writers noted the number of cylinders in a car. But they don't show how it compares in importance with many other attributes such as engine size, power output, country of manufacture, body style, cost, colour, or

3375:. However, in this case it might be better to replace this with a template. I think the template in an article would better serve the navigation needs of readers. If the decision is to delete, I'll help create that template if that is where consensus winds up. At least for the first 2. 2491:

Years ago, most manufactures built 8-cylinder engines (V8). Why is the V8 engine not manufactured as much any more and why has the in-line 4-cylinder engine become so popular? SOLUTION: In the 1960s and early 1970s, the V8 was a very popular engine. However, it is not designed to be very

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How? Because reliable sources use number of cylinders as one of many ways of defining cars. This isn't a collection of Knowledge (XXG) editors' likes and dislikes. This encyclopedia is a dilligent reflection of what we get from good sources. Second guessing our sources this way violates

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to chefs. If there were dozens, OR if the two were a vital intersection, such as lgbt politicians (in which case i would support subcategorizing down to the city level if there more than a few), i would say keep. this is for now a completely trivial association, at least until we have

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Pointlessly broad categories that would not assist in search. Somewhere over 70% of all cars ever produced would fit into the four-cylinder category. Many cars have more than one engine cylinder configuration. Very few cars have the number of cylinders as a defining characteristic.

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per nom, but I don't think the argument given applies to those 3. I'm not sure if the suggested names for those parents are better or worse (both new and old names feel awkward to me) but I feel they should be discussed in connection with, and kept consistent with, the rest of the

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the problem with this category is that it may seem to apply that these people are modeling in ways that present them as homosexuals. However we do not categorize people by being presented as homosexuals but self identifying that way. That problem would be even more evident in

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This is the kind of thing that should be achieved by either lists or navboxes. Even more so that the FBI most wanted effectively already has both. It was as far as I can see kept mostly on arguments of 'defining characteristic' which is really an argument for keeping its parent

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as an irrelevant intersection of sexuality and occupation. If that's the result then the closing admin should add this to the "to be checked manually" list, in case there are names there with no other chef-related categories (or perhaps even no other LGBT-related categories).

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fuel-efficient. During and after the energy crisis in 1973, the cost of gasoline increased rapidly, Today, engines are very fuel efficient, especially the in-line 4-cylidner engines. Cars with smaller engines cost less and make better use of the worlds limited oil reserves.

2928:- So what categories are you proposing to represent engine size? Cars under 1000 cc? 1000 - 1200 cc? Over 6000 cc? Cars with OHV engines? Cars with multi-camshaft engines? You think we might be able to get up to three figures number of categories for some cars? -- 2801:

A very impressive list of citations certainly, however many of them seem to apply to engines themselves rather than cars. Many automobile engines have their own articles so perhaps the category is better applied to engine articles rather than automobile articles?

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which has been available in two, three, four and five door versions is cited with subcategories? Then add diesel engines as opposed to petrol. Turbo-charged, supercharged. Suddenly we have a large mass of additional widely overlapping categories. --

1224:. I will ask the closing admin to overturn the closure of the discussion below ... and implore the nominator to desist from proposing the deletion or merger of categories until he develops some basic understanding of the effects of his proposals. -- 2888:

idea of spliting the catagories into subcatagories if they are a bit overcrowded. But don't delete them! A lot of articles need them. Calling them pointless is kind of...pointless. They are important catagories, and most people will agree with me.

2616:"Of the first 10 cars to finish in 1952, eight were six-cylinder jobs. Two of them were V6s. The Chrysler-powered Cunningham that finished fourth was a V8. The only other non-six-cylinder car was the fifth- place winner, the Ferrari V12." 1139:

You have not proposed deletion of any categories; you have proposed merger of one of them. If you had intended that two be deleted, then a) you should have specified deletion, and b) you should have nominate two, but you only nominated

3467:. Nothing has changed since then, so I see no reason to re-open the discussion and make a different decision. This category is automatically populated by the FBI Ten Most Wanted Fugitives Infobox, so it automatically remain current. 2725:

think 3 engines is a lot, but that's mere opinion. Categorization should be decided by fact, not opinion. Moreover, what really should matter is following where the sources take you, even if some editors think they know better. --

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Secondly, they don't address the question of the difft variants. It doesn't make much sense to say that X is defining characteristic if "not X" is also a defining characteristic, and "4-cylinder" clearly means "not 6-cylinder".

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but make sure these are container categories that have no biographical articles. The same should be done for all women by nationality categories, but has not been done consistently. I just added the container cat tag from

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Defining characteristic: "Felicitations came from almost every quarter except those loyal Ford owners who lamented the loss of the Ford four and the other auto manufacturers, who now knew what they were up against."

2603:. There is no one perfect universal means of definition. Why should we expect that there should be? Categorization need not be that perfect. That's why there's more than one way to categorized cars. Cars are complex. 1890:

I don't really see how sexual orientation impacts one's ability to cook and I don't think the restaurant industry is notoriously prejudiced against LGBT people. So this looks like an intersection of little value.

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Defining characteristic: "The new Chevy six had to have overhead valves. ... The production Chevy six. interestingly, shared its 3-5/ 16-inch bore with boih ihe new Poniiac six and Buick's overhead valve unit"

5379:-- A model may be a sex worker, but that is largely the result of a euphemistic misuse of the term. Something similar applies to the female masseurs. Appliying massage is not sex-related. I would further 3392:

Articles or templates may well be useful. I'm honestly not sure how many persons want or need to navigate between the rotating president of Switzerland and the Thai monarch, but that's not for me to decide.

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ensuring that lists exist. The "FBI most wanted" category might be kept, but those who leave the list, because they are caught (or die) should remain categorised. We do not do Current/former categories.

5405:. There is also a whole set of models who pose in photography where the goal is to show various situations, not the clothing. There are also models used by artists, so it is way more than just clothing. 933:

s which group the existing sub-categories of men-by-occupation. Deleting these container categs simply makes it harder to locate those existing by-occupation categs of men. --03:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

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I don't know how many citations I have to supply to demolish this notion that number of cylinders is not a defining characteristic. I'll start with only two and if that doesn't work I'll be happy to

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It is just plain weird to stick the Chirstian between Roman and Briton. The current title looks like an attempt to put "Roman Catholic" and "Ancient Roman" into the same name and is just messed up.

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is clearly relevant for categorization, I fail to see why the intersection of the 2 is relevant. In the odd case where some user, perhaps out of curiosity, would want to find the intersection,

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The vast majority of people are notable for only 1 field, if that. A very small number of people are known for many things. Some cars had three engine options, but most models only had one.

1557:(the latter of which I just created.) The main artist is a redlink and it's just a collaboration between two other acts--we don't make a category for every intersection of a collaboration. — 4618:

for better grammar and clarity. A lot of categories have recently been speedily renamed to use the compound word "country subdivisions", but we don't even have a head article of that name:

3313: 3309: 2511:"There's a sound you feel from a big V8. A hard, thundering throb that says you're on your way." Note the metonymy: the whole car is referred to as "a V8" or "a four"; a very common phrase. 1595: 1546: 1380: 1038: 42: 37: 2623: 2507:

There are innumerable citations available to show that there is an emotional/socioeconomic/marketing difference between cars with different cylinder numbers and configurations. Consider

2316:. And the category should be split up more than one way; that's the beauty of categories. In any event, choosing how to clean it up is of no concern to CfD. It should be kept and fixed. 3317: 2835:-- A few of the higher numbers may be worth keeping, but the numbers that are routine are too common to mention. Anyway, should we not be having articles about engines, not cars? 3357:

these are the type of things that work well in lists, not categories. Actually some may be too changeable to even be good for a list, but they are not at all good for categories.

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different career categories: painter, architect, inventor. etc. That is a consequence of da Vinci being extraordinary, not a flaw in the categories. Let alone a reason to delete

5150: 4595: 2504:. If most Knowledge (XXG) car articles are about 4 cylinders, it's because Knowledge (XXG) neglects history and has created too many articles about recent cars. That's fixable. 4730:

then I think the top three should keep their names which match it; the proposed longer names do not strike me as enough of an improvement to break the current consistency. –

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That comment misunderstands the nature and purpose of the category under discussion. It does not contain any individual articles, and should not contain them. It is simply a

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Here's another batch of citations. I can go on and on like this. By the way, where is a citation to support the nominator's assertion that 70% of cars are four cylinders?

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I picked the Australian book solely because it happened to be the very first one of many, many hits I found. I'm happy to supply as many citations as you'd like to see. --

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That's a crucial point. Cylinder count is a good way to categorise engines, but a poor way to categorise production cars (which may be fitted with many difft engines). --

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Read the column at left for a more detailed discussion on the engineering differences between them. Note also that it tells us that the commonality of 4 cylinders is a

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Number of cylinders is not required to be the ideal, let alone the only, way of categorizing cars in order to be a valid category. It is sufficient that a category be

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whether being gay (or LGBT) is a significant characteristic in relation to being a model, whose fucntion is to be a clothes horse to display the latest fashions.

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a V8", just as you would say, "this bear is a mammal" or "this mineral is a pyrite". If the sources said otherwise I'd have no argument to keep the categories. --

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It's quite clear that the nominator simply doesn't understand the consequences of deleting or merging categories, and seems quite happy for all he contents of

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have no administrative function), and it is right that we should have a general grouping of subdivisions which is not restricted to the administrative ones.

4451: 2671:"Note that if you drove a four-cylinder ( or less ) car, you should claim only half of the amount shown on the table unless you can prove you paid more." 717:

works as categories for men not covered by occupations etc and as containers for gendered categories like comedians, footballers etc from those countries.

4559: 4478: 3942: 395: 357: 21: 4550: 4469: 3224: 2911:- The size of the engine, the number of cylinders in the engine, and the valvetrain configuration of the engine are all notable parameters of a car. 4577: 4568: 4523: 4487: 4460: 3293: 2740:

Dennis, the sources might matter if they addressed the specific issue here, but none of the sources you have offered deal with that specific issue.

216:. The use of "Briton" is somewhat archaic. "Romano-British" is the accepted term for Britain (actually only England and Wales) in this period. 4688: 4591: 4505: 3216: 2677:"If all or part of your mileage was driven in a four-cylinder (or less) car, the deduction for that mileage should be one-half the table amount" 4600: 4675:

Note that many of these categories have recently been created by the same editor, and they seem to be consistently poorly-parented. For example

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have some benefits higher up the category tree (tho I am not persuaded of that), at this level it has created some ugly category names and some

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is country. Any subdivisions of Nigeria are subdivisions of a country, so the word "country" is superfluous. The 200+ by-country categories in

4537: 3475: 2876:- it would be kind of foolish to delete them. A lot of the articles in those catagories ARE notable, e.g the early Bugatti Veyron concepts in 17: 5251: 5011: 4711: 3443: 3207: 2861: 2758: 2711: 2584: 2446: 1610: 1236: 1166: 1094: 853: 819:. We have quite a lot of men-by-occupation-nationality categories, creating for those intersections between gender and occupation which meet 521: 428: 380: 320: 4582: 4442: 4110:-- The present name may be technically correct as the correct Greek plural, but that is too obscure for me. I also agree with nom's case. 3531:

current categories are disfavored and anything notable can be listified - some folks have done this for national leaders nearly every year.

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to group the existing sub-categories. Deleting it simply makes it harder to locate those existing by-occupation categs of Lithuanian men. --

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reason, as far as I can tell, to prefer this specific intersection and not any other - and we don't need all possible combinations here.

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would be filled with thousands of articles if it weren't broken up into 21 sub-categories, and any number of sub-sub-categories, down to

2125: 2116: 2107: 2098: 841:, but where we have men-by-occupation-nationality categories, they should be grouped together by nationality as well as by occupation. -- 4752:-- "country subdivision" is superfluous (except perhaps in parents): where we are dealing with one country "subdivisions" is adequate. 4555: 4474: 4433: 2881: 2373: 2236: 2089: 2080: 2071: 828: 4546: 4465: 4979: 4907: 4676: 4573: 4564: 4519: 4483: 4456: 116: 4501: 5357: 4965: 3455: 3301: 3245: 2485: 1855:

How are these two facts supposed to be relevant? Does it matter if someone who is making an omelet wants to have sex with a woman? —

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If we want to categorise cars by engines, it's unclear that number of cylinders is the best way to go go about this. A 4-cylinder

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Defining characteristic: "Shortly after the Indianapolis race Ralph De Palma drove a "Twin Six" Packard from Chicago to Detroit"

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The Christians are neither exclusively Ancient Roman nor British. They have to do will the Roman colony of Brittania. Similar to

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It should be either simply "Komnenodoukai" (plural) or "Komnenodoukas (singular) dynasty", per the norm for families/dynasties.

3938: 2985:- 16-cylinder cars are so rare that they could be listed in an article. Categories are a bad place to describe car's engines. -- 3959: 2319: 4649: 2653: 112: 4240: 4066: 213: 153: 128: 4420: 3140: 4988:

The IP's concerns may have been triggered by the lack of the links which are usually present in such a category, so I have

3304:. It is useful to categorize institutions or ongoing events this way, but not individuals. There is a misconception that a 5266: 5130: 2617: 2478: 766: 2672: 2663: 2647: 2640: 2632: 2572:

is available with 4-, 6- and 8-cyclinder engines. How exactly is the car defined by such a widely-variable parameter? --

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into L, G and B sub-categories. This goes even further and subdivides one of them even further. Upmerge to all parents

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There is no basis for deleting a category just because it has a lot of members. That would be like wanting to delete

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might seem too large if it were left as a flat category, but that is fixable by creating appropriate sub-categories.

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Models have roles beyond displaying clothes. "Adult models" is a term used for people who appear in magazines like

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since people do use sockpuppetts we need to keep tabs on them so they can not cercumvent the rules in this manner.

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I don't want any more of those, because are irrelevant to the question I asked. Please read my question again. --

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says, a "a defining characteristic is one that reliable, secondary sources commonly and consistently define". --

1181:. Please note that the nomination below (which I had missed when commenting on this one) led to the deletion of 5360:

are sex workers but models is not a clear cut case with some individuals likely to be included and others not.

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categories are supposed to work. And you're wrong about what the sources say: they don't only say, "this Ford

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_August_6#Category:Living_performers_of_Christian_music

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says that the term includes pornography models. This appears to fit with Merriam Websters's definition:

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Defining characteristic: "By late fall of 1931, it appeared that another Ford four was in the offing."

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present status counts or somehow counts more than other statuses and that needs to be corrected. Cf.

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Fine by me; I didn't want to be criticized for not suggesting an upmerge to all parent categories.

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The overlap is mostly a result of the way we choose to write articles; for example the 6-cylinder

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the fact that many cars are avialable in more than one of these types makes it a needless overcat.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_October_30#Category:Current_foreign_ministers

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That comment misunderstands the nature and purpose of the categories under discussion. They are

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I am not advocating the creation of male categories in any situation other than where they meet

4272:- the intersection of cricket & football players is notable enough to merit the article on 5472:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_October_15#Category:Living_queens_consort

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_October_28#Category:Genres_of_death_metal

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with sub-1000cc petrol engine has very little in common with a 4-cylinder 2.1 turbo-diesel

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Please look at the effect of your proposal. If it proceeds, then everything that is now in

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or any of the other 13. WP:OVERCAT doesn't say: delete categories with too many members.

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The list linked does the job - these 12 are kept seperate at the top of that article. --

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the missing parent. See also item below in CDF list. Closure of both should conform.

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per Oculi. Since this is an administrative category - this could probably be speedied.

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since the categories that exist are justified, we need this parent category for them.

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though, and that is coming from the person who created it! Personally, I agree with

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I don't understand. I just think these two should be deleted--is that not clear? —

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has the right idea. Consider it instead of just brushing it off your shoulder.

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has been offered with 4-, 5-, 6- and 8-cylinder engines. Even the mass-market

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Unnecessary and not helpful for navigation. Evidently, some were confused by

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there because of how people chose to use the painter's work after his death.

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