Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2012 December 17

2660:. Couple things here. 1, what did the people back in Prehistory call the area we now know as France? We don't know. We do know what people in 1865 called this particular area, they called it India. Ergo, the category should reflect the political reality of the time. 2, The reason why this approach should be preferred is a good question. First, it does not change. Borders change, and with a change in borders, that would mean each of these categories would need to be changed and revised. This way, they don't ever need to be changed and revise, each of them represent a historical fact - that this was the situation at that particular point in time, which does not change. Two, we shouldn't be applying historical anachronisms. That goes just as much for the US as for elsewhere. We are working at revising the American articles to reflect the political realities of their respective times, and not reading back into them the situation of the present. This would also apply to East Pakistan, FWIW, so it doesn't just work one way. 2070:. They are notable for being mentioned as people in the Book of Mormon, and not for any other reason. This is not the case with the Doctrine and Covenants—all of the modern people mentioned in it are uncontroversially "real" people, and they are notable for other reasons. The fact that not all people mentioned in the D&C are Mormons only strengthens the argument that this is not defining for those who are mentioned. Jesus is mentioned plenty, as are Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Peter, John the Baptist, the Apostle John, Aaron, Melchizedek, Elijah, Elias, Methuselah, Noah, and on and on. Another problem is that multiple versions of the Doctrine and Covenants exist. Whose version are we going by? The LDS Church's? The Community of Christ's? Many people are mentioned in the CoC version that are not mentioned in the LDS version and vice versa. 3067:: Although the category talks about a time when Pakistan did not exist, pre-independence in 1947 and India did. We also need to consider it in the light of the current reality of two countries existing. The article is being read today. I would therefore suggest clubbing these into British India rather than either India or Pakistan. If it is known that the establishment was then in a princely state, a new category with respect to that princely state could be created? 3496:-- We do not normally have articles on individual characters in modern drama. They normally either get merged back to the article on the drama or to an article listing the characters. The result is that we get a category almost entirely of redirects, which leads to the category beinhg deleted. The nom is probably the best solution for the moment, but the subject needs to be 3341:-- We do not normally have articles on individual characters in modern drama. They normally either get merged back to the article on the drama or to an article listing the characters. The result is that we get a category almost entirely of redirects, which leads to the category beinhg deleted. The nom is probably the best solution for the moment, but the subject needs to be 3682:-- First merge all articles into the character list article for the series, or at least one for CTU (there in fact appear already to be two articles on the series already). Ultimately the objective should be to have one list article on the series (or perhaps a few of them), which can be linked through a navbox. When that is achieved, even the tsarget can be deleted. 4193:-- We do not normally have articles on individual characters in modern drama. They normally either get merged back to the article on the drama or to an article listing the characters. The result is that we get a category almost entirely of redirects, which leads to the category being deleted. This is the stage we have reached here. 2699:

Punjab and several other factors. Anyway are you going to be retroactively applying 1960 Pakistan, which was more or less the country envisioned by the founders, or 2010 Pakistan, which is a rump state deprived of one of its main components, East Bengal? The whole idea of retroactively applying Pakistan does not work. Anyway the

3938:-- We do not normally have articles on individual characters in modern drama. They normally either get merged back to the article on the drama or to an article listing the characters. The result is that we get a category almost entirely of redirects, which leads to the category being deleted. WE are beyondf that stage here. 1720:-- The BBC operates services in a significant number of languages, who are inevitably speakers of the relevant language. They are not necessarily all journalists. I would therefore suggest that, even though it mayn bea small category, we should keep it. We may need similar categories for BBC services in other languages. 2903:- I appreciate that with the Cold War between India and Pakistan ongoing, calling them Indian is guaranteed to upset them. Perhaps a good compromise would be to name it after the official name of the territories at the time... i.e. "establishments in Punjab", or "establishments in British India" etc.-- 2638:

starts with "The history of the United States as covered in American schools and universities typically begins with either Christopher Columbus's 1492 voyage to the Americas or with the prehistory of the Native peoples, with the latter approach having become increasingly common in recent decades". So

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The political entity wasn't there, the geographical region that now is Pakistan obviously was there. Keeping the Pakistan cat but adding the India cat as a parent category does make it clear that at the time, this was in India, while making it also clear that these things are (or were) located in the

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directs us to use the modern name, although the context should be appropriate. It concedes there are disagreements about historic names. These subjects come up at CfD occasionally but if they get picked off one at a time then often it results in a shallow discussion. There are two ways of looking at

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is clearly an institution in India. What next, are we going to try calling an 1865 establishment in Konigsberg something established in Russia? When Konigsburg was clearly in Germany at the time, and clearly not in Russia, I do not think that will work. We solve lots of problems by applying these

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The fact that India and Pakistan have fought multiple wars shows the borders are undefined. Anyway, no one called in Pakistan. No one had envisioned Pakistan in 1865. It is an ahisotical and false notion. In 1865 there was no way to pick out an area of Pakistan, because there was one Bengal, one

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Doctrine and Covenants is a) a scripture (to Mormons), and b) an historical document. On both bases, this makes it different to someone's (auto)biography, and from a secular document. It is available in every one of their churches, much as the Bible's available in every other church. It is thus, not

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Note to closing admin: the nominator has created these India categories and already started to move pages into them before this move is decided, which confuses the discussion. Also note that there are multiple discussions on going at the moment - can we wait until this is decided until moving onto

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I'm aware of this problem, and it is definitely a valid criticism, but two things should be borne in mind. Firstly, the majority of D&C, is used by almost all LDS groups. Secondly, the mainstream LDS' membership dwarfs the CoC (which is almost non-existent outwith North America bar a handful of

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we read "The idea of a separate state had first been introduced by Allama Iqbal in his speech in December 1930 as the President of the Muslim League". So these categories predate the introduction of even the idea of a state of Pakistan. The name Pakistan is not even proposed until 1933. In 1865

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but not directly to a category for India, which Pakistani perople may consider offensive, as implying that their republic is part of the present India. We need to find a term that is acceptable to both Inida and Pakistan for the preceding polity, ruled by a British viceroy. I would suggest that

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If the borders change, which doesn't happen that often anyway, all the articles in those categories need to be edited anyway, since they usually have a reference to "Pakistan" in the text anyway ("X, in city Y, currently in Pakistan"). Having then to change the categories as well isn't such a big

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I don't think it's an issue if the deletion proposal is placed on a category and the nominator thinks that the category is inherently flawed. It's not like nominating a poorly sourced article for deletion at AFD, which can be improved with sources as it's worked on. Even if the category was fully

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is a book, or rather a collection of religious documents. We generally do not categorize people for appearing in or being mentioned in a book or other work. These people are generally not notable because they appear in the Doctrine and Covenants—they are notable for some other underlying reason.

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are possible targets. Strictly, this ought not to include princely states, becasue they were (at least in theory) independent states whose relations with the Raj were regulated by treaty. Certainly we cannot have pre-1947 categories for Pakistan, but equally it would be offensive to Pakistani

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Historical—yes. A narrative—no. Each section is a self-standing revelation, letter, or minutes of a meeting. If you try to pick out a historical narrative by reading it cover to cover without background material, you will struggle. For one, there are huge gaps in time between some sections.

1181:. Since many jurisdictions have unique film ratings systems, we do not categorize films by what rating they received under any one of the systems. To fully develop such a categorization system would lead to dozens of ratings categories being placed on film articles. To include only the 2817:. Neither view is perfect, and editors are choosing different interpretations, both equally valid. (Just don't think that the choice is about someone trying to 'claim' an institution for one country over another.) Which interpretation is more useful? A discussion is already going 3106:

be implemented. The categories currently use a template which makes them automatically members of , as the template includes standardised head categories; in cases like that we could instead build the category page manually, if people think it is desirable. However, as

2594:, add the India cats as parent cats: this way we cover both the current and the historical situation, people can approach the articles from both directions, from the original historical viewpoint, and from the "where does the current Pakistan come from" point of view. 2049:"We generally do not categorize people for appearing in or being mentioned in a book or other work" - Actually Knowledge (XXG) does in numerous cases. There is a whole category for people in the Book of Mormon, no doubt one for the Bible etc.-- 2675:

problem that it whould count in whether we should have them now or not (assuming that the borders change again, all post-1947 cats should be changed as well, adding those from before that time really won't make that much of a difference).

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The argument here and in other categories is that where we have a clear x happening in y year, we should pay attention to the reality in y year. This is a very different issue than how to treat categories that retroactively look at an

2985:: I have added 6 head categories for deletion into this nomination, as they will become empty if the mergers go ahead, and 4 more that are very similar (and unnecessary as the contents are already categorised by years in India). – 2187:

populated, my concerns would be the same. There is little sense waiting for more work to be dedicated to populating it if it is going to be deleted. But I apologise anyway, because you felt it was wrong for me to do so.

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the current category , which is unambiguous, is better than , which should not be created. I note that Category:Mints (currency) was just a single suggestion in the last CfD taken out of context of the existing tree.

3115:, I think it should only start from Partition. Note that there are no categories for establishments by city, only by country, so we do not have to worry about parents for e.g. "establishments in Lahore in 1873". – 2917:

The place was without question India in 1865 or 1926. That is an undisputed fact. The name Pakistan was not even proposed until 1933, and the state division not until 1930, so there is no way to object to the

2083:), 19th century people common to both LDS & RLDS/CoC editions, mentions exclusive to LDS version of D&C, and mentions of RLDS/CoC people in that version of D&C. One could even merge in material from 3047:

that the category is limited to people connected with the modern nation-state of that name. However the issues there are slightly different. I am not sure we have ever decided what to do about sub-national

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all ]. Merge all to (or possibly delete if these only apply to establishments, not to political activities). The interpretation of year and country means different things for these two types of category.

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It's not "undisputed fact". In fact, it's highly contentious. Couldn't it be called "British India" or something like that to distinguish it from the modern state which is an entirely new entity?--

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We need a firm conclusion on whether an establishment in a historical country applies to the current country, as the decisions are all over the map. But this discussion gives no clear answer.--

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This is not a historical narrative like other scripture, and none of these people are known only from this work of scripture, which is the reason for having other x scripture people categories.

1602:. A disagreement exists about whether this is an unnecessary small category or whether the language is important but I feel that this discussion is enough to show a rough consensus to merge. 3011:

into a Pakistan category is just bizarre retroactive re-writing of history. Using boundaries and names of the year involved is the only way to create stability for the encyclopedia over time.

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Is there seriously no precedent or guideline for this somewhere? I'd really imagine that at some point this would've been hashed out over the last decade. For what it's worth, if you look at

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lived. This is clearly India in 1865 without a doubt. While the 1920s dates to not predate the idea of Pakistan they predate its reality. The country is clearly India at the time.

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Except all the things that are in these categories were clearly in India. Even the princely states would probably count as India. However the things involved her clearly do.

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Virtually every early leader in the Latter Day Saint movement was mentioned in the D&C, so it's also somewhat redundant to other categories for leaders in this movement.

2634:; there was no "France" in prehistory, there is one now. "What happened in the past in a current entity" is quite a normal question and the topic of many books. Our article 923: 2273:

Actually it is an historical narrative. Biased, perhaps, but still both a scripture and an historical source. Some scriptures do not purport to be historical at all.--

2084: 3453:. Single-item category with no chance of expansion. The article is already well-categorized except as a sitcom character, which is why that proposed merge target. 948:. We generally do not categorize politicians by "current" status in particular positions or bodies. This category seems unnecessary anyway, since we already have 915: 3621:. Categorizing five fictional characters by the fictional agency for which they work is overcategorization. They can live happily in the 24 characters category. 3162: 949: 490:

is to cover banknote printers as well as coin mints; this is explicit at that CFD. Given this explanation, I hope the above editors will reconsider the "merge"

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Would it make more sense to listify this relationship in a new article? That way we could subdivide into sections for "scriptural" people (people from other

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it doesn't start in 1776, even though the country only starts then. Similarly, the history of Pakistan doesn't only start in 1947, as can be seen in

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per nom. Different jurisdictions have different ratings, we'd end up with dozens of categories for each internationally released film. --

2752:, you notice the "years" bar for the US goes back to 1774, but no further. So in that particular case they seem to have made a decision. 3143:, but even that is not needed at this point. The things were established in India. That is where they were when they were established. 1829: 1821: 1484: 1212: 271: 4156: 4083: 3967: 3906: 3711: 3649: 3607: 3577: 3480: 3325: 3029:' categories even including the 1974-created English counties. So any decision here may be creating a precedent for other categories. 2852: 2749: 2447: 2147: 2088: 1661: 1463: 781: 473: 1259:

there is no reason to have this category unless we have other rating categories, and we have decided to not classify films by rating.

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I think you underestimate the knowledge of common editors and overestimate the effectiveness of the Latter Day Saint Wikiproject.

3831: 3807:. Although the nom is a blocked sock, the other contributors seem to have a consensus to upmerge based on relevant guidelines. 2515:

to speak of Pakistan before 1947 is anachronistic, to speak of it in 1865 is to use the term before it was even invented. The

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Yes, the previous CFD, linked above, did leave the way open to split banknotes from coins. The intended meaning of the parent

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categories based on the geography. It makes no sense to have a category for things established in Pakistan 11 years before

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the parent is quite small so this extra level of categorization just isolates five articles and does more harm than good.

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This article should have been listed on the appropriate WikiProjects anyway. How can this be debated properly otherwise.--

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It would also be false. At this point in time, there was no Pakistan so the category should reflect the historic record.

124: 4202: 4185: 4164: 4134: 4074: 3999: 3984:), a banned user with, from what I heard at SPI, an ugly history at CfD. I've struck his nominating !vote and rationale. 3947: 3930: 3914: 3883: 3820: 3743: 3728:), a banned user with, from what I heard at SPI, an ugly history at CfD. I've struck his nominating !vote and rationale. 3691: 3674: 3657: 3630: 3593: 3509: 3488: 3462: 3428: 3354: 3333: 3307: 3291: 3253: 3179: 3152: 3129: 3094: 3076: 3057: 3038: 3020: 2999: 2977: 2949: 2927: 2912: 2891: 2877: 2860: 2830: 2818: 2787: 2761: 2740: 2722: 2684: 2669: 2652: 2635: 2624: 2607: 2580: 2569: 2551: 2532: 2387: 2315: 2292: 2282: 2264: 2247: 2222: 2213: 2191: 2181: 2154: 2125: 2096: 2074: 2058: 2021: 1961: 1889: 1803: 1729: 1712: 1695: 1678: 1669: 1643: 1615: 1599: 1531: 1510: 1492: 1471: 1445: 1388: 1307: 1290: 1268: 1251: 1233: 1220: 1201: 1130: 1056: 1021: 1004: 987: 968: 897: 823: 806: 789: 763: 716: 642: 624: 607: 585: 553: 530: 508: 481: 457: 434: 387: 295: 279: 258: 234: 218: 190: 104: 4222: 4048: 4020: 3848: 3792: 3764: 3557: 3529: 3402: 3374: 3227: 3199: 2801: 2363: 2335: 1937: 1909: 1777: 1749: 1579: 1551: 1355: 1327: 1104: 1076: 871: 843: 690: 662: 343: 315: 78: 4181: 3112: 2631: 1527: 1047: 819: 291: 3261: 1148: 3572:. Although the nom was a blocked sock, it looks from the rest of the participants like there's consensus to merge 3440: 3126: 2996: 2974: 1692: 760: 576:

is down as a mint but is also a banknote printer. And which of the Indian or Australian printers are also coiners?

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branches). I don't wish to belittle the CoC, but I think those folk could be dealt with in another category...--

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exists because most people believe that most of the people mentioned in the Book of Mormon are not

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to Members of 29th House ..., which is essentially the same thing. Or do I me3an 28th House ...?

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the extra participants coming here (bad), and without the context of current on-going dicussions

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Actually I'm amazed that there aren't more people in it. Pobol y Cwm is quite iconic in Wales.--

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which seems to cover the same thing. Unless the intention was to split banknotes from coins???

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Do the closing admins here have the skills here to recategorise the contents accurately? E.g.

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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was clearly in India, Lahore was clearly in India. It was one of the main places that

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ratings would be overly centric towards one rating system. Cf previous discussions for

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India was not a single polity - there was the Raj and lots of little princely states.

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the same as Winston Churchill's memoirs, or Mein Kampf, or Miley Cyrus' latest "book".

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Also, not everyone who appears in D&C is a Mormon, let alone a church leader.

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are a sub-group of the Romani people. There are other groups of Romani, such as

3028:: There are parallel issues with 'people from <placethatdidnotexistthen: --> 2238:- Listed this on LDS WP, or tried to, in order to get a more balanced debate.- 1030: 178: 2766:

Yes there was a previous discussion specifically about Pakistan. It is here

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_November_21#Category:Mints

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_November_21#Category:Mints

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