Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2012 February 25

3800:", as it is notable that all but one of the present categories for former pupils of South African schools include the word "Old". There is consistency at present, which is not based on the use of "alumni". "Old Highburians" is no doubt the commonest term actually used for the former pupils of the school. With regard to ambiguity, no evidence is suggested that any of the other Highburys has ever used the term "Old Highburian", and even if any had there would be other ways to disambiguate the term. I suppose this is the beginning of an attack on the use of the "Old Fooian" format in the South African categories, on the lines of the war of attrition pursued by a small group of editors with regard to schools in the UK? I find all this obsessiveness rather sad. 194:

the official name. The official name is unlikely to cause confusion but the same cannot be said for the common name. c) if BHG was unhappy with the new article name, she was supposed to assume that it was done in god faith and take it to the talk page. Instead she changed it without discussion inviting an edit war. Is that good wiki etiquette? d) I await a large cut 'n' paste from BGH of my alleged bad faith edits. Brace yourself folks. While all of it will be irrelevant to this discussion, most of it will prove to be entertaining. At least it will be to BHG and her acolytes. Why else would she do it so frequently?

2457:-- The term "Old Edwardian" can properly be applied to dozens of schools founded by Edward VI - or rather refounded, as most were the refoundations of schools conducted by chantry priests. There is an Old Edwardian Club in Stourbridge, whose membership is (or was) that of the local Grammar School (now a Sixth Form College) or of other Edwardian foundations (such as Shrewsbury School). This whole thread of CFDs started with problems over the schools of the King Edward VI school foundation in Birmingham. 3029:. Most or all of the Knowledge (XXG) biographies you refer to have no reason to refer to Old Gowers collectively, they are dealing specifically with only one. Where people who attended the school are referred to collectively (often, of course, in the context of the school itself) "Old Gowers" is undoubtedly the commonest term used. A multiplicity of others could be contrived, but in any event, categories are not for giving information, they are for categorizing. 3992:"alumni" is not an Americanism, as BHG pointed out with her quote from the Short Oxford English Dictionary in a previous discussion. The parent category uses alumni, and no one has presented any evidence it is not used in South Africa. Most of the South Africa categories use forms like "Old boys" which is not the same thing as just "old x". Anyway, as of now 2 categories use the alumni of form, and there are only maybe 15 categories at absolute most. 539:. Not necessarily a bad idea, but it does radically change the scope of the category, because "Pornography in the United States" inludes non-American porn imported from somewhere else. I generally prefer non-adjectival names for categories-by-country, but before making the change I would want some evidence of the effect ... and since the current name fits the convention of the parent category, it should be done by a group nomination. -- 1942:. The current category name consists of an English-language adjective derived from the Latin word for "Slough", and gives no indication of the contents of the category to any reader or editor who is unfamiliar with the school's history. I see no evidence that the term "Old Paludians" has gained currency outside the school's own circles. For example, searching for "Old Paludians" produces 3214:. BHG has gone above and beyond the call of duty. She has fully demonstrated that the term "old Gower" when used in English refers to lots of things, but none of them are connected with this school. It has been nearly 6 years (or over half the life of wikipedia) since we abandoned city level demonyms. Why did Londoners fall while Old Gowers stood? 3898:– the case against most Old Fooian categories has been made repeatedly and in detail and has never been addressed other than by assertion. The RSA ones use either alumni or Old Fooian so alumni is the obvious choice. As Peterkingiron says, this is not in fact a secondary school (and is thus misparented) and 'delete' is another strong option. 3832:

help is some evidence of your assertion that "Old Highburians is no doubt the commonest term actually used for the former pupils of the school"? That "no doubt" is empty rhetoric unless you have some evidence of how it is used outside the school and its circles. Usage by the former pupils themselves

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the use of the "Old Fooian" format where it is actually used, and we do not have a general policy in favour of stamping it out. "Old Gowers" is undoubtedly the most common term used in describing former pupils of the school. It causes no harm and is hardly ambiguous. I was quite amused by the new dab

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is, what happens to the included categories? One suggestion in this discussion is to delete once the subcategories are deleted. So while consensus is to delete the parent, it really is dependent on the deletion/upmerging of the children and that requires nomination for an action on those categories.

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a) I did not say that I believed Leinster to be a GAA county. The category contains only GAA counties plus the article Leinster GAA. A reader unfamilliar with the structure of the GAA would assume that Leinster was just another county. The name change would dispel that idea. b) The common name is not

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I have not overlooked the rarity of references anywhere to people educated at a particular school, and you make my point very well. Because it is so rare to refer to them as group, the specialist collective terms are rarely used. That rarity makes them unrecognisable for most readers, which is why

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The ambiguity problem is not just a question of whether the other schools used the term, because Knowledge (XXG) is not actually written for an Old Boys network. It is written for a general audience, and even if our readers and editors are familiar enough with the "old Fooian" terminology to know

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currently contains 184 biographical articles. Since the school itself is so eminent, and all of the 184 biogs are presumed to be on notable people, I had hunch that an eminent school which churned out so many notables might have gained some wider usage of its terminology, and left it aside to do

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by writers, philosophers and academics, this would lead to a massive and pointless clutter. The parent category Category:Terminology by author is misleading, as the other two subcats, Maoist terminology and Marxist terminology, are obviously not "authors." We could also decide to keep the Derrida

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is an article about a ministry and contains not 1 but 2 embedded lists, each of which should have its redirect. I have created and categorised these 2 redirects to lists. In the past editors have disagreed about categorising redirects and undone my efforts so I shall see what happens to these 2.

564:-- This is another case of the hoary old issue of whether "American" refers to the two American continents or USA. Most of the sibling categories are fooian pornography, suggesting there should be no change, but the category needs a short head note to the effect that it relates only to USA. 2774:

The "Old Gowers" terminology arises from the school's former location on Gower Street in central London, but it left there 105 years ago (in 1907). Schools may of course use whatever internal terminology they like, but this terminology makes for poor category names unless it has a) achieved

3060:"The central goal of the category system is to provide links to all Knowledge (XXG) articles in a hierarchy of categories which readers can browse, knowing essential, defining characteristics of a topic, and quickly find sets of articles on topics that are defined by those characteristics." 1188:

None of the three entries can reasonably be considered as a school museum. They are open-air museums that happen to include a school. The phrase is seldom used to start with but I have found no instance of a reliable source that refers to either of these three museums as a "school museum".

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on the nominator's suggestion of "Works about writers and their works"; it is a more complete description of the categ's content, but I am not sure that the extra accuracy justifies the increase in length. To my mind "works about writers" implicitly includes writings about their works.

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I made the nomination since the vast majority of the member articles belong in the category suggested. I did consider re-categorising each one and leaving something like two categories behind. In retrospect creating the redirects suggested below will help to populate the category. --

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That's a navigational function, and it's a great pity that you show so little concern for the readers who navigate through these categories. A category with a name they don't understand is an obstacle to navigation, and you seem determined to erect these obstacles in readers' paths.

1771:. Shawn is correct to point out that a terminology by author subtree is certain to lead to ridiculous levels of clutter. In fact that's precisely why we're categorizing terminology not by authors but through coherent groups of authors such as marxists or postmodern philosophers. 3972:

for all the usual reasons I cite every time - clear, unambiguous, non-jargony, standardised. Would prefer "people educated at" as part of a move to slowly rename all the "Alumni" to "PEA", but if it's desired to maintain uniformity across the parent cat, no problem with that. -

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I note that you have also been engaged in yet another massive restructuring of article names and categories relating to counties and provinces, without AFAICS making any attempt to discuss this first. Most of the changes seem pointy, and I am in the process of reverting them.

1957:, where I set out the general problems with this type of category name and linked to the many precedents for renaming this type of category. If you have concerns about the general principles of this renaming, please read that rationale before commenting here! Thanks. -- 3480:

rule that these lists must be sawn out of articles on the office is fine if there were 50 office-holders, but isn't it better to have the information in the article if there were only a couple. BTW Australia has departments rather than ministries – there is already a

3347:. Many of the articles about individual ministries also include embedded lists of ministers, and are therefore correctly included in this category; please remove any articles which do not contain a list of ministers. If the nominator wishes to create a separate 2401:, where I set out the general problems with this type of category name and linked to the many precedents for renaming this type of category. If you have concerns about the general principles of this renaming, please read that rationale before commenting here! -- 2815:, where I set out the general problems with this type of category name and linked to the many precedents for renaming this type of category. If you have concerns about the general principles of this renaming, please read that rationale before commenting here! 2117:

This name is rather an oddity and has a whimsical origin. It is also curious that it refers to the former pupils of so many schools. While "Old Paludians" is properly used in the category name, I can see the advantage of not lumping all the schools together.

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per nom. This is truly bizarre to anglicize the latinized version of a name of the school. The fact that even Moonracker admits it is "whimsical" should indicate it is not a good category name for the vast majority of us who have no clue what a slough

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As to the choice of "alumni of" vs "people educated at", I really don't care a fig either way. These renamings use the existing convention of their parent categories, but if you want to challenge that convention then please open a group nomination.

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1 hour before opening this CFD. That was the page's only move since it was created in 2005, so I have moved it back. Laurel is welcome to open an RM discussion if he wants to, but in meantime the category title matches the name of the head article.

1986:, which was created in 1993. The renaming will not affect that, because the standard practice is categorise alumni of merged or renamed educational institutions under the current name. However, if the renaming goes ahead, editors may wish to create 2180:

for clarity and per previous discussions. This one is especially hard to recognise and navigate. Subcategories for those who attended pre merger institutions are fairly well established for universities and can work just as well for schools.

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I meant to say that anything that is not a publication or a form of literature (which is only a small number) would have to be removed. This is a bit of a retrograde step but not much of an issue. Any unsuitable articles can be unmerged to

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says "These are lists of Ministers ordered by country." Perhaps it should say "These are articles which contain lists of...". I think categorised redirects are a fine interim solution for long lists, but a permanent one for short lists. A

3401:– this is a clear case for the creation of redirects to each embedded list, and the categorisation of the redirects in the list category (under the current name). I agree with the nom that the articles (about ministries) should be moved to 3149:- the term might well be in common use between Old Gowers but I have never heard it used myself (and I know people who went to University College School). It is not used outside Old Gower circles, as the nom amply demonstrates. 2495:

the use of the "Old Fooian" format where it is actually used, and we do not have a general policy in favour of stamping it out all around the world. If these categories were to be renamed, is there any evidence that people in

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descriptive titles which clarify the purpose of the categories to both readers and editors by incorporating the full article title of each school. These names follow the "Alumni of Foo" convention of their respective parent

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The title is probably a little misleading and does not fit in with other categorisation schemes. It mainly contains books, magazines and journals. Note that I have removed some of the articles that were more related to

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some research. My hunch has turned out to be wrong: lots of notable "old Gowers", but no sign of common usage of the term "old Gower". Apart from the googling above, I also checked each of the online references to the

1354: 2375:. It is also a followup to a long series of more recent discussions, in which there has been a consistent consensus to abandon the "Old Fooian" format where it is either ambiguous or does not reflect the school's 2552:

Regarding the question of using alumni I've had a look at some sources for Sierra Leone and they do use the term alumni for former secondary school pupils. I can add links to the sources if anyone's interested.--

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I am particularly delighted to see Moonraker's sentence "BrownHairedGirl, you seem to overlook the fact that there are very few references anywhere to people educated at a particular school (including this one)

1438: 1390: 3849:"Foo School". Rather than complaining of an "attack", please could you try to assist other editors in devising category titles which will actually help readers to navigate between articles? Thanks -- 953:– I agree with BHG that "works about writers" includes their works implicitly; and surely we can improve upon "Works about FOO and his/her works" anyway. "Works about works" doesn't work. (We do have 2368: 2364: 2360: 2136: 3814:

Moonraker, please do try to read the nomination before you respond to it. Contrary to your assertion, the nom includes specific evidence that another school did use the term "Old Highburian", and

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throws up 831 hits, but most of them refer to old things from the Gower Peninsula (e.g. "Old Gower Farmhouses") or old things from Gower Street (e.g. "the old Gower Street Chapel", see

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to better reflect the contents. Very few of the articles and categories are about American pornography but they are all about pornography in the United States. All the other pages in

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Please note that this only one of dozens of categories which use the abbreviated form "Foo GAA", which reflects common usage in Ireland and the titles of the head articles. (see e.g.

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We have no policy either way on Old Fooians, which is why we are having this discussion rather sending this for speedy renaming. It's interesting to see that once gain, cast a

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about ministries. Even thought the articles in the category may contain a list the category should be reserved for pages that are purely a list ie. preceded by "List of". --

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I have no objection to deletion. I'm not neutral on that, and my only concern is that if this category is kept, then it should have a name that makes sense to the reader. --

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As to the use of "alumni" rather than "ppl educated at" or "former pupils of", I have no preference. I have merely followed the convention of the parent categories. --

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When you have answered that, let's see what evidence you have for its common usage off Knowledge (XXG) in preference to simply saying that the person attended UCS. --

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I have no objection at all to subcatting the prev schools. It doesn't seem to me to be the usual practice, but I do think that it would be a better one. --

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BrownHairedGirl, you seem to overlook the fact that there are very few references anywhere to people educated at a particular school (including this one)

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To avoid non-list articles being in a list category, the moving of the contents to appropriate categories, possibly with redirects, can be done.--

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I've been meaning to nominate all the subcategories of this category for renaming to "Works about (name)," but just haven't gotten around to it.--

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There's consensus to rename, but not clear consensus for what to rename to. This can be nominated again if someone comes up with a better name.--

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and have added a {{cn}} tag to "Historical people and things associated with the Gower Peninsula in Wales", which strikes me as rather fanciful.

1414: 1483: 3472: 3344: 289:. The alleged main article is a redirect to that. However, WP normally expects abbreviations to be expanded. Should it not be something like 123: 1458: 17: 4308: 4147: 3924: 3883: 3861: 3726: 3538: 3523: 3436: 3367: 3126: 3077: 3015: 2898: 2847: 2542: 2444: 2413: 2391: 2383: 2165: 2043: 1969: 1450: 1318: 1004: 940: 818: 551: 414: 382: 266: 176: 1350: 4123:

is a defunct council area in Scotland, and the local categorisations of Scottish people are now organised under current council areas, in

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to cure ambiguity, clarity, and jargon issues. The "alumni" vs. "people educated at" issue should be resolved separately from this issue.

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As to your claim that "Old Gower" is "the most common term used in describing former pupils of the school", try one simple test: how many

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I have added its location "Freetown" as a disambiguator, because although we do not have other articles on schools with that exact title,

3741:-- As this is a preparatory school, not a public or high school, one might question whether this should exist, but I do not propose to. 290: 4552: 4476: 4434: 4274: 3455: 3387: 3329: 1386: 716: 525: 147:

a) I have no idea what gives LL the impression that the word "Leinster" implies a county. It's not a county, and it doesn't say county.

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lists many other secondary schools whose name begins with "St Edwards". The disambiguator will help editors to avoid miscategorisation.

1919: 3780: 2954: 2101: 126:. To avoid the misleading impression that Leinster is a "county" of the GAA. It is in fact a province (i.e. a multiple of counties). 114: 1943: 310: 2619:

for all the usual reasons I cite every time. Would prefer "People educated at..." but if "Alumni" is preferred then no problem. -

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to cure ambiguity, clarity, and jargon issues. "Alumni" vs. "people educated at" should be considered separately from this issue.

1723:, as only two of the category contents appear to have been coined by Derrida. If we began to categorize all terms that are simply 1680: 838: 4257: 3402: 3348: 3307: 1470: 241: 212: 2787: 1688: 3486: 513: 2504:

use the Americanism of "alumni" for former pupils of secondary schools? In the absence of that, it would be better to use the

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sufficient common usage in reliable sources to be recognisable to those not involved with the school, and b) is unambiguous.

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and others where men's and women's teams have different name. The proposed names all match the parent categories such as

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from a category name (where it impedes navigation), and by clarifying the category's purpose as alumni of the school in

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For a more comprehensive rationale for renaming "Old Fooian" categories of school alumni, see the group nomination at

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For a more comprehensive rationale for renaming "Old Fooian" categories of school alumni, see the group nomination at

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For a more comprehensive rationale for renaming "Old Fooian" categories of school alumni, see the group nomination at

1741: 903: 667: 370:, b) start by renaming the articles, and c) pursue a group nomination rather than taking one category in isolation. -- 1806: 1768: 1733: 1613: 4415: 4253: 2874:. Since I can find no evidence that the school or its alumni are the primary usage of either term, I have converted 1653: 1636: 1617: 4241: 4132: 4069: 3948: 3171: 2578: 2186: 1990: 1302: 1213: 1138: 739: 657: 500: 488: 98: 4521:

of course, which is something else entirely) is found almost universally in article and category names, and given

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The category also includes films, TV shows and at least one website, so "publications" won't work, unfortunately.

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Australia". The "in" format could include the states, whereas the "of" format implies those at national level. --

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in Wales. I can find no evidence that the term is widely connected with the school: there is no such usage in a

2058:-- I do not think we need "Old fooian" categories for grammar and high schools - they are usually too obscure. 958: 240:), so it is not the official name. Your chosen mae = "Leinster provincial council of the GAA". Official name = 4562: 4494: 4167: 3978: 3200: 2800: 2624: 2215: 1764: 318: 3634: 237: 154: 2862:

The research above on the usage of the term "Old Gower" also pointed me to the existence of redirects to the

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per nom. The head categories for South Africa and for Sierre Leone encorage using the "Alumni of" form.

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As to your claim that categories are not for navigation, I am sorry to see that ytou have not yet read

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The title of the article has been stable for over 6 years. You appear to be the only person confused.

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would be a good name for a container categ for the by-writer subcats, but I don't think it is needed.

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I'm not sure what should be done here, but I agree that "Scientific skeptic media" is a poor name.

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language of "attack" doesn't help build a consensus. Nobody is attacking you, so please calm down.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_February_26#Works_about_writers_and_their_works

233:: bold., revert, discuss. You were bold, I reverted, now there can be a discussion if you want it. 4544: 4468: 4426: 4381: 4266: 3837:), and you do not address the need for recognisability, naturalness, and lack of ambiguity. See 3759: 3742: 3447: 3379: 3321: 3287: 3097: 2933: 2916: 2832: 2475: 2458: 2076: 2059: 1789: 1776: 1499: 1491: 1194: 1063: 1033: 1015: 979: 852: 708: 565: 517: 294: 216: 195: 127: 3838: 3048: 582: 3043:

Moonraker, I'll take it then that you don't have any evidence that "Old Gower" is common usage.

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for all the usual reasons I cite every time - clear, unambiguous, non-jargony, standardised. -

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3343:. This is part of a series of categories for govt ministers by country, which are sub-cats of 3238:

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Stefanomione's preference, which is misleading. This category also contains subcats which are

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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format which is becoming so much used in the United Kingdom, the former 'mother country'.

2144: 1533:- I'm the category's creator and forgot to include the "and Ladies." Agree with proposal. 966: 1515:

per standard naming conventions when men's and women's programs use different nicknames.

3699: 4518: 3801: 3030: 2980: 2798:), and there are a lot of references to the character of Gower from Shakespeare's play 2509: 2119: 1786:

Upmerge the latter, then delete the former when the rest of the categories are deleted.

2386:, the proposed new category name directly reflects the title of the head article. For 3658: 3546: 3494: 2993:

Did you read the nomination? Really? There is plenty of evidence there of ambigiuity.

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Stefanomione's "more elegant" preference, which was roundly rejected just weeks ago.

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is referenced entirely to the Association itself, and makes no claim of notability.

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per past discussions, in particular those which renamed a slew of Old Edwardians.

145:. This is a multiply bizarre nomination, so I'll take the problems one at a time. 2371:) were renamed to use the "People educated at" format which has since become the 2639: 2553: 1534: 1516: 3537:, which has a sub-category for ministerial offices in the Scottish government. 1728:

category and simply add it to the appropriate pre-existing subject grouping in

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descriptive format which incorporates the title of the article on the school:

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both, with possible placement of Derrida terms into a post-modernism category.

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and other such groups, it seems this spelling is accepted around the world.-

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says that categories for socio-cultural topics use the "FOOian XXXX" format.

2976: 2879: 2875: 2871: 2867: 1736:, or merge it there—though deletion for both is still my strong preference. 4350: