Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2012 June 1

4546:(1985) has long been widely considered to be the quintessential epitome or poster child for examples of egregious and brutal Police brutality. For example many witnesses say pregnant women were beat with truncheons as the article explains, and I even personally spoke with some of the victims present around a year later who told me the same, not that that means anything. The victims eventually won a court case many years later. But the nominator did not like the category title "Police brutality in England" and specifically mentioned regarding this case that he feels is a matter of POV whether these actions constitute "brutality". Without getting all legalistic, even though it may seem hard to see how one might disagree that this meets the definition of brutality, still conceding that other POVs might exist, it seemed fair enough to categorize it as "alleged police brutality", since as several have pointed out on yesterday's cfd, there will probably always be some disagreement from a few as to what level of action meets the definition of "actual" police brutality. 3171:

in Bangkok (and many other places in the tropics) selling such fruits. I am reluctant to say "exclusively" because some of these fruits are eaten when not fully ripe, and some are edible, though not commonly eaten. I don't know why standards for people and fruits are different when it comes to such an abstract thing as categorization. By "rock musicians" you clearly mean musicians playing predominantly rock music, but you avoid including "predominantly" in the category title, because it's difficult to define (and this appears to be a very common practice on wikipedia, because few features are truly "exclusive"). However, for the category in question, you're not permitting me to do the same thing!

4964:

situations as possible. The definition of "police custody" I chose covers people who work in police stations as well as people at political demonstrations, witnesses being interviewed in the street and lots more. Basically, if the answer to the question, "was the person owed a duty of care by the police" is yes, then they are in police custody. But it covers deaths only, not injuries. I therefore suggest that we rename the category, "Police brutality..." to, "Injuries in police custody...". This allows us to categorise the phenomenon, group similar articles together, and yet remain neutral as to attribution of cause.

1442: 3261:, both the tree and the fruit are decorative. The article reads, among other things: "European nobles in the sixteenth century would often have the shells of these nuts polished and decorated with valuable jewels as collectibles for their private galleries." I have no objections to renaming "Fruits used for decoration" to "Decorative fruits"... or maybe "Decorative fruits and seeds"... or maybe "Decorative fruits, pods and seeds"... it's difficult to anticipate in advance which category will work better... 4225:) give opportunity to briefly document the nature and evidence of each case. Smaller numbers may initially be listed by continent; the head category contains more individual cases which can be removed once they are added to a list. Once new lists have been created, "see also" links to the relevant list should be added to most member articles. The editor(s) implementing this should also look for cases where it will be appropriate to upmerge some or all members to one or more parent categories. – 4733:. If there is enough dispute over whether something is police brutality to tack on the word "alleged", then it should not be in a "police brutality" category in the first place. (Yes, I realize that some degree of category clean-up would be necessary to make the categories reflect that.) We almost always delete categories that contain the words "alleged" or "suspected", etc. Categorization is too blunt a tool to be dealing with these subtle and nuanced issues. 4970:, for example, died from a blow to the head but there is no evidence that at the time the injury occurred he was, "in police custody" as defined above. I think the solution to this might be to widen the definition of "police custody" so that it includes persons at events being policed, even if it is not possible to show that the specific individual was, strictly speaking, owed a duty of care by the police. 3306:, you can find a number of comments on decorative uses of the giant nut, together with some references. My impression is that all this discussion comes from the fact that most editors here do not reside in the tropics. In many parts of the tropics, the existence of such fruits is as obvious as the fact that the sky is blue (does the statement that the sky is blue need scholarly references to support it?). 5554:

wishes to keep the victim one, I'm not sure. I would not object to a decision on all but the victim one which could be discussed on its own merits in a new nomination if anyone wants. While there may be some way to structure this without the POV issues, what we have now is not the best starting place. The alleged categories probably need a separate nomination as the title alone reeks of POV issues.

3788:. I am the creator of the category. There are countless other categories of these types that should be included if "relevance" is the case. As for for the "cutesy userboxes", yes, perhaps I went overboard on them, but I am more than "a user has any interest in a TV series beyond watching it." I've created EVERY episode article for the series and monitor the main page as well as the seasonal pages. — 2996:

tradition of what is called opera). Visit markets in South-East Asia if you have not done so yet. Additionally, it is WRONG that any fruit can be used for decoration: for example, fruits that decay fast are not easily adapted for such use. The question is not what CAN be used for decoration, but what IS used for decoration within established cultural contexts.

1481:: It sounds like it was renamed in 07-08 per Spanneraol's link. Honestly, most smaller organizations like these are pretty lax about they use their own "trademarks." They don't see the need for a full PR guide, and they probably write it both ways. But the most official / current name seems to use camel case, so we should use that one. 5398:

for the most part. If there are specific regions/countries which have a large number of alleged incidents which were never proven, then we should have the alleged category as a subset of pb there. for the most part, the names as we have them are good enough. it should not be applied to articles where

5281:

Sure, reliable sources may indicate that a given case is police brutality. But the category groups "widely considered" police brutality in the same category as "erroneously assumed" police brutality. If you look through the articles, several of them are about cases where the police were acquitted and

4963:

In the other discussion I have proposed a rename that avoids the weasel word "alleged". As Robofish mentions, we already have a Category:Deaths in police custody in the United Kingdom. I actually created that category and took care to define "in police custody" so that it covered as wide a variety of

5060:

First off, courts really do not hand down convictions of police brutality; the jury might indicate "we find the defendant guilty of manslaughter" but not "we find the defendant guilty of police brutality"; police brutality is not a hard and fast legal concept, and thus cannot be applied consistently

4799:

Given the wide range of "police brutality" cases (acquitted, convicted, wrongly convicted, etc.) as you mention, would you support splitting into those sub-categories? We would keep the overarching police brutality category and within it we would nest the different outcomes by degree of "guiltiness"

5584:

Vegaswikian clear shows that this category is not well organizaed or focused enough to count as a unified subject. Recreating in an organized way is probably worthwhile but we need to come up with more neutral as to point of view name and rebuild with a clearer connection to the subject. Deleting

5333:

You say "alleged police brutality" is too vague? What about our current scheme! If 20 articles can be grouped as "alleged police brutality," at least 50 can be grouped as "police brutality." The general term "police brutality" is so indiscriminate that it includes just about anything the police do;

5178:

True. The "confirmed" offenders are appropriately categorized right now. I'm more concerned about giving the wrong impression about police that were acquitted and/or wrongly "confirmed." Does anyone, perhaps Oranjblud, have an idea of how to solicit input on potential sub-categorization schemes for

3354:

The original nominator's rationale had nothing to do with notability and was raising concerns about whether being decorative can be a defining characteristic. A consensus has been reached among the active members of this discussion that it can be for fruits used predominantly for decoration. If you

3170:

I did not create this category to list apples and pears in a bowl that look neat in a room. There is a large category of fruits (in the botanical sense, including pods, etc) used predominantly for decoration (usually in dried form). Example: there are large sections in the renowned Chatuchak market

3154:

because the ability to be used as a weapon is not a defining feature of a pencil. Likewise, many fruits could be used as decoration and sometimes have been used as decoration, but the ability to be used as decoration is not a defining feature of any fruit, with the possible exception of fruits that

2995:

In the same way you could say that you would consider any piece of music opera, according to your taste (for example, because all sounds resemble sounds of singing to your ears). This makes little sense. There are fruits with established traditional use in decoration (just like there is established

5282:

cleared of wrongdoing. "The New York Times considers the shooting of XYZ a clear case of police brutality" is definitely a very different kind of statement than "The Supreme Court has cleared the ABC Police Department of all wrongdoing." These statements are incompatible and don't belong together.

5118:

I also disagree the part of the rational - them category name "Police Brutality" is (subjectively) broad and not judjemental - eg - it is reasonable to expect subcats of type "dis-proven cases of police brutality" to also appear in this category alongside "criminal convictions for ...." if needed.

4789:

I'm not drawing an analogy between the standards for the two things; I'm pointing out that the need for patrolling categories is not unique to this situation. Even though there are objective standards for war crimes you would be surprised how often there are disputes about what is included in that

4657:

As I mentioned in my rationale, I'm open to a split instead of / in addition to a renaming. I'm not intending to downplay the seriousness of any crimes; I'm merely intending to take a cautious approach and avoid making accusations where they may not necessarily be warranted. In my view, I'd rather

2035:

as nominated, per Good Ol’factory. There is no need to restrict the scope of these categories to state-level elections, and all-inclusive categs with a geographical scope will better organise the elections in these states. If those cats become overpopulated, then subcats for state elections can be

5553:

and rather subjective since what goes as brutality in one country may well be established practices in another. As currently structured, we have lawyers and activists against brutality in these along with victims and incidents which may or may not have been actual cases of brutality. If someone

4770:

I don't see the analogy. War crimes are clearly and unambiguously defined by international agreements and organizations; an individual can be sentenced for a specific crime known as "war crimes." Police brutality is loosely defined and rarely if ever have I heard of someone convicted of the crime

4742:

I am certainly in favor of reviewing the articles in the category, but we would have to do so on a regular basis. Categories are meant to be self-sustaining; we shouldn't have to establish a patrol force just to make sure articles are using the categories correctly. In other words, the categories

3802:

My comment about the userboxes was not directed at you or even the userboxes in this case, and I meant no offense. I had in mind many other userboxes that I've encountered which, unlike yours, fail even to link to an article about the intended series, leaving others to guess about the source of a

3339:

Travel to Thailand, for example, and you will know the answer to your question: a substantial part of a population over 60 million people (and this is only one country that could be brought up). I accept your question about "how many people", but why are you drawing the conclusion "delete" out of

2001:

If that's true, I would support the naming scheme you propose. I had wondered previously if these articles were actually about state-level "gubernatorial" elections rather than elections conducted in a certain state. Elections held for the state assembly should be labelled as such, unambiguously.

4814:

I'm not clear on how it would work, really, and I think that's too much to bite off in this discussion without a solid proposal. As pointed out above, there is rarely a crime called "police brutality" and what a brutal police officer would be charged with or convicted of varies considerably from

4627:

Not necessarily. Several of the articles discuss cases that were originally considered police brutality, but in which the police were acquitted of any wrongdoing. You seem to be suggesting that any article involving the police is a case of police brutality, but there are many other reasons why a

4481:

variety of articles are included because the category is so open-ended and has very few barriers to entry; anything generally related to police brutality (confirmed, alleged, confirmed but overturned, speculative, historical, etc.) are welcome to join the category. This is sloppy and problematic.

3836:

Your comment also reinforces my hesitation to suggest a wholesale reducation or removal of the category tree as a whole. While it seems, in many cases, that the categories have no connection to any collaborative activity, a case like yours is a clear counter-example: someone who created and is a

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software -- the development process includes creation (modeling, rigging, animation, game engine development), testing, distribution, maintenance (patches, technical support) -- a process lasting long beyond the day the game was "created." Calling it creation software suggests there are separate

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for any station and, furthermore, the information is not even mentioned in any of the ~15 articles that I checked. Nowadays, virtually all notable (and many non-notable) companies and organizations have websites; the characteristics of the websites, and especially 'background' detail such as who

4642:

That sure does not justify moving the whole category. It only justifies the creation of a category to deal with the small number of cases like you describe. I tell you what, just make sure that no guilty people end up in any "alleged" category. If you were raped, you would be pissed off if your

4504:

I suggest we rename this category to make it clear that few cases are confirmed or certain; the vast majority are open to interpretation and reinterpretation. I would be open to a split, into something along the lines of "alleged cases" and "confirmed cases" or "alleged cases" and "cases widely

4480:

reads clearly: "Following the acquittal, an internal police disciplinary inquiry cleared the officers of any wrongdoing." The police officers were acquitted and cleared of wrongdoing; it is thus unfair and misleading to group them in the same category as confirmed / acknowledged cases. The wide

3215:

I think the two perspectives are reconcilable, because in theory decorative fruits is a valid category. It's just that in practice, we need to find reliable sources to find out just exactly which fruits are considered predominantly decorative. I believe the category creator's argument that some

4838:

I'm not—I'm opposing the rename/merge that was proposed. I don't much like the nominated categories, but renaming/merging them into "alleged" categories is an even worse idea than keeping them "as is", in my opinion. If someone wants to propose that the categories be deleted outright, it might

5148:

It depends, not necessarily - sensible sub-categories might include "... victims", "... cases" etc. It impossible for me to really say what would or wouldn't be suitable without looking much more closely. These might be more useful/productive subcategorisations than attempting to distinguish

4436:

unambiguously condemns the use of NPOV or potentially controversial category names. Per that page, "Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when

3230:

Thank you for your detailed and well-reasoned reply. I see your point: if a particular fruit is considered by reliable sources to be a 'decorative fruit', the fact that it can or sometimes is eaten should not prevent it from appearing in this category, just like the fact that a pencil can and

5267:- It seems to me that the supposed subjectivity of the identification is erroneous. There may not be a specific court finding of police brutality, but that's not our only source. If sources we deem reliable identify incidents as being such brutality, then we can and ought to identify it so. 5243:

Allegations of police brutality are sometimes deployed (without adequate evidence) as part of a criminal's defence strategy. On the other hand, there are cases where police brutality is proved and damages are paid or a conviction quashed as a result. I would suggest that we (1) rename all

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material to properly populate such a category. Its only contents would be the main article and the 'members' subcategory. Second, there does not appear to exist an established super-structure of cricket league members, sorted by league, nor does there seem to be a need for one at this time.

2336:

2176:(a cricket competition in Ireland). If a significant number of other articles relating to the league (e.g. on matches or grounds) are created in future, then it may be appropriate to create a subcat for members, but at this stage the category is better kept at the more inclusive title. -- 1884:: Ignoring the precedent component of your rationale for the moment and talking just on the merits, how is "LOCATION elections" defined any differently than "Elections in LOCATION"? They seem to refer to quite the same thing. We're just talking about elections that take place in LOCATION. 581:

is currently void of direct member pages (aka, very clean and organized). Upmerging the (very large) male and female categories would throw 300 articles into that category. Regardless of your philosophy on the issue, I think categorization by gender works for the purposes of organization.

5133:

You would thus support a sub-categorization scheme that breaks down "police brutality" by outcome? That is, "confirmed" / "acquitted" / "mistakenly convicted" or something to that effect? It's clearly valuable to make fine distinctions as much as possible when it comes to alleged crimes.

2517:(a cricket competition in Ireland). If a significant number of other articles relating to the league (e.g. on matches or grounds) are created in future, then it may be appropriate to create a subcat for members, but at this stage the category is better kept at the more inclusive title. -- 1910:, on the other hand, reads as a more inclusive set-and-topic category that contains the aforementioned articles, as well as general articles about election-related topics in Rhineland-Palatinate and even articles about local elections within Rhineland-Palatinate (for example, the 3216:

fruits are widely considered decorative and are hardly considered edible at all. It's just that, the current categorization scheme is based on original research. I see every reason to retain the category so long as we pull in some scholarship on fruits being used for decoration.

5038:, which ultimately led to convictions for some of the police participants), and tagging those as merely "alleged" is unacceptably inaccurate. Perhaps the categories could be hat-noted to make clear that in most cases the allegations could not be proven. I would also insist that 3112:

A very strange position! Would you also suggest that wikipedia category "Rock musicians" should be removed according to the same reasoning (many of them played classical music as well). Should you look for defining categories like "musicians who played exclusively rock music"?

1979:, etc. Having investigated that one it turns out that the category is entirely about elections to the Landtag (state assembly), not elections in the state to the national assembly the Reichstag. The existing name reflects this, but not clearly. The target certainly does not 528:

could be understood as "characters in video games intended for females", but it is a fact that certain video games are marketed primarily to male or female markets. I think that, of all the examples provided, the issue of clarity is most apparent when considering the titles

5432:"Police brutality" is a well known and accepted term in the law and among criminal justice ethicists. There is nothing "pov" about it. Think about it from the perspective of a victim of police abuse. "Police conflict" seems like a hopelessly pov euphemism, in that regard. 4658:

err on the side of caution than be too accusative. If you're more interested in being direct about the nature of the crimes (understandable), I would definitely support a split that distinguishes between "unconditional" or "nearly certain" cases and more ambiguous ones.

4495:, which states that "Alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people on trial for crimes." Police brutality is not a clearly-defined crime like manslaughter, and thus instances of police brutality are almost always 5487:

except "victims of..." - I took a look at the categories and they're filled with BLPs, and riot events, and the like. A person is not "police brutality". A riot is not "police brutality". And so on. That means that, in application, these categories are (mis-)applied

362:

The vendors an organization patronizes for business services is no basis for categorization. The manufacturer of steel used for building the Golden Gate Bridge, the financiers behind the Netscape IPO, the beef distributors for McDonald's— the list would be endless.-

5099:

As you correctly wonder, "perhaps there is no such thing?" Courts simply do not make findings of "police brutality." They make findings of murder, assault, and other felonies. "Police brutality" is an entirely subjective label applies by commentators at their will.

4486:

There is no universal consensus as to what constitutes police brutality; the definition depends upon location, culture, morality, political affiliation, law, race relations, etc. Thus, we should avoid making judgment calls as to what is or is not police brutality.

3131:, standards for humans do not apply quite as well as to fruit, and vice versa. A musician should be categorized according to the style for which he or she is known and recognized. Thus, a rock musician who happens to play "Für Elise" in his spare time should be in 537:, which could be misunderstood as "characters in children's video games" and "characters in LGBT-themed video games", respectively. The potential for confusion is less with the 'Male' and 'Female' categories, but consistency and greater clarity are desirable. -- 477:

points out below (with a different example), "(Fe)male video game characters" could mean "(Fe)male characters in video games" or "Characters in fe(male) video games". For example, Anya Kovaleva is a female character in what might be called a "male" video game

1427:. It's possible that Baseball Cube doesn't reflect that. The issue is that most of these people in the category were entered in by using the baseball reference pages and if it is merged someone who wasnt aware of the merge might recreate the other category. 5015:. There are some interesting proposals going on there, especially Cottonshirt's latest, and we should consider those before we move on to this larger topic. I would like to keep the focus on that original CfD so we can centralize discussion in one place. 2359:

this isn't really constructive. I'm unsure of any such articles ever being created. For now, to rename the category only for the inclusion of the eponymous article, given that the category may never become diversely populated, i would say is less useful.

5526:. Categories for alleged police brutality should appear as subsets of the police brutality categories where needed. Any articles that are in the wrong category should be moved. As for a possible rename based on finding a less inflammatory term than 5309:

True. I return, though, to my concern that there's no enforcement mechanism unless we develop rigid criteria; even in that case, it seems to make more sense to make the distinctions (e.g. alleged vs. confirmed) inherent to the name of the category.

4437:

creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate."

1278:: Do we need to wait for another !VOTE to move this forward? I don't see this is as a terribly controversial move, especially with Falcon's research above. If anyone is reading this and has a second to !VOTE, I would really appreciate it. Thanks! 4463:

pointed out, you should take a look at the individual articles to understand the problem. These individual articles may contain factual descriptions or assertions (e.g., John Doe claimed to have been choked by the Anytown Police Department), but

5399:

there are no sourced mentions of accusations of police brutality. adding "alleged" is much more pov, wildly so if its applied to articles where police brutality is either proven, or is generally considered to have happened by most observers.

5082:, surely there must be cases of "Police Brutality" where the brutality has been proven - to rename in these cases would be a wrong, and contrary to wp:verify in cases where a criminal case has been proved. (perhaps there is no such thing?). 1387:

with almost identical team names, but in most cases they seem to refer to different teams or, at least, different incarnations of the same team. In this case, however, sources cited in both member articles refer to 'Joliet JackHammers' (see

665:

As I asked on another CfR, would you consider voting on the renaming proposal before we consider deletion? I believe it would speed up the process - we can get this renamed first, and then we'll be ready to handle the upmerge question.

5163:

I think the key point is that using super-parent cat of "alleged" is wrong - if it contains cases where a policeman has been convicted of say GBH, attempted manslaughter, assault etc - it is incorrect to be labelling such examples as

4613:- There isn't any "Alleged" police brutality that is notable enough to be on Knowledge (XXG). If it has made it to the point of being an article, it's police brutality, not alleged police brutality. There is no reason to move these. 3766:. Though I mostly agree with the rationale – most of the cutesy userboxes that populate these types of categories provide no indication that a user has any interest in a TV series beyond watching it – this category is part of 2374:

I think I see your reasoning, but in what way is it more useful to start with a narrower category? Categorization generally starts with general classifications and becomes progressively narrower as needs dictate. Thanks, --

4960:

I would like to apologise for not initiating this discussion in the most appropriate way. Lack of forethought meant that I proposed the category with which I was most familiar and failed to consider the wider tree of such

4001:). To answer your question: I counted approximately 180 similar categories, but I sincerely doubt that this one was selectively targeted ... almost certainly, it just happened to be the first one that was encountered. -- 5149:"alleged" from "proven" etc. I would be usually unwilling to support a categorisation scheme I would be unwilling to implement. As you note the lack of a clear cut criminal offence makes such categorisations problematic. 2451:

as well. At least until there is some evidence of articles being created that would justify the rename or creation of. The purpose is to make it easier for the user to navigate the categories. I hope this is clearer.

3828:

It's easy enough to rename a category, and I do commend your clean work on the userboxes (I'm referring to the userbox code). As for creating the category... well, you had every reason to, given the healthy state of

5061:

or definitively. Also, thank you for the suggestion -- I made a hat-note on the top of the main category. No matter what happens with this CfD, it's important to make clear what the category is, and what it is not.

3231:

sometimes is used as a weapon should not prevent it from being labeled a writing tool. However, I think that the title must be defined more clearly: not just 'fruits (that are) used as decoration' but specifically

3983:: Totally agree with Drovethrughosts. Why is this the only one being picked on? There's got to be dozens, if not hundreds, of userboxes/catagories like this. The rename seems appropriate, but keep the cat. 3966:: "The Killing" by itself is ambiguous, given the film and other TV series that also bear that name. If there's concern over the underlying notability of these categories as a group, that's a larger issue. 4454:

is a case of police brutality, I am free to include it under the category without rationale. Since there is no enforcement mechanism to weed out questionable use of the category, its use can go unabated.

2389:

I think the category name should be more specific in this case as it serves a purpose here. I agree that starting with a general category is better, but I do not agree that it justifies the creation of

4524:- the rationale makes much better sense and at least is consistent across the board, and thus easier to agree to, as opposed to singling out one or two of the specific subcats for moving. Regards, 3857:: What's the difference between this category and every single other similar category of "Wikipedians who like "? Why is this one being targeted for deletion, and not any others? It should just be 2597: 2300: 4790:

tree. (But the only possible objective standard that I am aware of for these categories would be incidents that are consistently referred to as "police brutality" in neutral, reliable sources.)

3814:

I understand now. While I should have been more proper with the cat title, I did my research with the UB's when creating them. No offense was taken, at least upon review of your comments. -

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Many solid points have been made against retention of the existing categories, and there is no consensus on a better name or group of related category names. Lists by country such as

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believed," but the more important first step in my view is to reduce the unexplained groupings and get back to an NPOV baseline. Thanks for reading, and please share your thoughts.

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Well it would have be wiser to wait for that other discussion to close before nominating more categories or to add to that nomination if they all should have been discussed now.

4672:

Perhaps you should take as your cue the rapist categories. There are categories: "People convicted of rape," "People wrongly convicted of rape," and "People acquitted of rape."

3101:

for decoration might be workable, assuming there were many such fruits, but even then it seems likely that the information would be more suited to an article than a category. --

3074:, but it would be problematic as a category. A category's inclusion standards should be objective and non-arbitrary, which raises the question: "What constitutes 'commonly'?" -- 2023:

as nominated. There's no reason these categories have to be limited to state-level elections. In the future, they could include articles about mayoralty elections, for instance.

5376:

Yes, the current scheme is problematic too. But I don't see adding "alleged" as an improvement. Renaming to an "alleged" scheme has been proposed here, not outright deletion.

5446:

I have never heard of a court handing down a finding of police brutality. The media may report it as such, but police brutality is certainly not a well-defined crime.

3369:

Just in case your bias does not permit you to look for evidence outside the English-speaking world, check out these official pages of auctions of Coco-de-Mer nuts:

4369: 989:. The proposed name is also as simple as possible without losing any meaning. The "of" is unnecessary and generally out of line with category naming conventions at 3288:

on the condition that someone finds reliable sources indicating which fruits are widely considered decorative (exclusively or overwhelmingly decorative, that is).

4105:

There have been duplicate categories created here - the target of the merge is based on the article name. I wanted to call it a speedy merge, but for some reason

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designed them, is generally trivial. If there is a desire to preserve the information, I think that the only suitable place would be in a section of the article

3010:

Put in other words, the criticism would only have concerned a category called "Fruits useable for decoration", it has nothing to do with the present category.

4990:

Thanks for adding this in here. I don't blame you at all for not anticipating the larger issue, because it only became apparent after we discussed it a bit.

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applies here. For one thing, "by country" could be confusing due to questions of whether it meant the victim's home country or the location of the event. -

5549:

the mess! Having looked at the articles in one subcategory, we don't need these. None of these are really about police brutality. The topic is horribly

3302:

I cannot provide scholarly references immediately (though if the issue becomes crucial, I will find them). However, for example, in the present article on

2789:. The editor has honourably tried to disclose the use of multiple accounts, but in good faith has done so in the wrong way. These accounts are legitimate 4222: 1807: 1771: 21: 3731:

Per numerous precedents, "liking" a topic is not relevant to encyclopedic collaboration, which is the only legitimate purpose for user categories. --

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Maybe we need to make an exception and have a split between alleged and proven incidents. But the fact is, we DO have legally proven incidents (e.g

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could mean either "video game characters who are LGBT" or "characters in LGBT video games". The male and female subcategories should be renamed to

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for the (low participation) previous discussion where the "alleged police brutality" categories were merged to the "police brutality" categories.

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See the discussion a few paragraphs above -- "As Robofish mentions, we already have a Category:Deaths in police custody in the United Kingdom."

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I'm trying to help to clear the backlog but am constrained by the fact that I'm a participant in many of the discussions that are overdue. :)

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PS: I totally agree with your argument about pencils. However, what your argument proves is merely that pencil should not be included in

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seems out of line with conventional practice, and given the small size of that category, there's not a firm naming convention within it.

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police brutality? This discussion is playing out rather differently and none of us has proposed an agreeable sub-categorization scheme.

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being poorly informed about the subject?!!! Knowledge (XXG) is not here to serve exclusively your personal interests and cultural bias.

1373: 1369: 963: 128:. Also, the current title is confusing: the primary use of "If" is, of course, as a conjunction, not as a proper noun. In addition, the 3770:. I'm undecided on whether it should remain as is, be streamlined or be deleted, but I am hesitant to support a piecemeal approach. -- 3391:

There hasn't been any meaningful input into this discussion for a while. Can we settle on a resolution? My best preference would be to

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should be deleted (because "anything can be used as a weapon, according to circumstances"). Similarly, apple should not be included in

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Interesting discussion overall! Both of those links do seem to equate it with the phrase 'excessive force' however; hmmm, d'ya think

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for Wilkins, and click on the 'Joliet' link in the first table). I would have merged the categories myself, except for the fact that

1027:(I suppose if anyone really strongly supports the original proposal they can argue for it, but it doesn't seem to have wide support.) 5570: 4848:

I see. Neither CfD seems particularly likely to end in consensus, so this category tree could see a few more rounds of discussion..

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I definitely see your point. I'm going to withdraw this nomination and pursue the route you suggested, for the sake of consistency.

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Therefore, a dedicated 'members' category does not fill any gap that could not be filled just as well by the proposed category. --

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Therefore, a dedicated 'members' category does not fill any gap that could not be filled just as well by the proposed category. --

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city. Even if it reaches that point in the future, it would be more efficient to split first by state or territory instead of city.

1408: 5339: 5043: 5039: 4421: 4383: 4264: 3053: 1867:"X's of foo" is better than "fooian X's" in most cases I am aware of due to avoidance of awkward adjectives. This is no exception. 4355: 4310: 4283: 2436: 2173: 2169: 337: 4403: 4337: 4319: 4301: 2600:. The parent category only has a few members, but I still think it's useful to create a distinction between parent and members. 2303:. The parent category only has a few members, but I still think it's useful to create a distinction between parent and members. 1601: 5366: 4328: 4292: 3692: 2562:

for members. The rename will allow the categ to include the head article, and any other articles associated with the league. --

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seems to indicate that it is the tree itself, and not its fruit, that has a decorative use. Should it be in this category? --

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I very much like that proposal. We'll see what other people think, but I'm actually liking this more than a simple renaming.

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categories as nom (2) re-create all categories as containere categories (3) in each case create a new category for cases of

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should speak for themselves - since they are such "blunt" tools as you say, there can be no room for misinterpretation.

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Thank you for replying, but could you clarify, please: What is the purpose being served in this case? Thanks again, --

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election-related topics, such as state-specific electoral law or reform. The change also establishes consistency with

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Yes, "patrolling" of sorts can be necessary. It's a common problem with certain types of category trees, such as the

4450:. The category provides no parameters for inclusion; the articles are not there for any clear reason. If I feel that 2646: 2325: 1820: 1235:

tools used at different phases of the video game development lifecycle, when in fact there is continuity throughout.

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As far as I can tell, these two categories are for the same team. I have encountered several category pairs within

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What I'm saying is that, if we insist on getting everything done right now, we very well might get nothing done.

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Nothing wrong with it, except that when there are so few members there is no pint in having a category which is

2321: 1903: 4077: 3543: 3525: 3232: 2919: 2732: 2514: 1753: 1587: 1355: 1194: 1054: 942: 685: 650: 5324:"Alleged" hardly helps the situation and creates greater problems: anyone can allege anything about anything. 2544:

Don't understand the rationale. What's wrong with having a category for members of his senior cricket league?

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Don't understand the rationale. What's wrong with having a category for members of his senior cricket league?

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police brutality. Editors can then move appropriate cases from the "alleged" category to the "proven" one.

5253: 4543: 3445: 3400: 3373: 3356: 3341: 3307: 3262: 3202: 3172: 3132: 3114: 3011: 2997: 1988: 1681: 1061:, which are very similar types of categories, includes sub-categories "Fictional XYZ" not "XYZ in fiction." 845: 791: 568: 5558: 5354: 4433: 586: 3988: 1255: 341: 1389: 5610: 5566: 5213: 4978: 4926: 4898: 4589: 4547: 4525: 4226: 4190: 4162: 4053: 4025: 3950: 3887: 3652: 3624: 3501: 3473: 2891: 2863: 2800: 2708: 2680: 2101: 2073: 1729: 1701: 1563: 1535: 1331: 1303: 1170: 1142: 918: 890: 775: 755: 727: 416: 388: 311: 302: 231: 203: 110: 94: 74: 3598:; however, that page was redirected (no one took action to merge it in over a year) in accordance with 3539: 3094: 3052:: Surely there's some literature on using fruits as decoration, in which case a different name such as 3032: 2653:

as a parent possibly is a sound organizational step in the long term, at this time there is not enough

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Why create a category just to hold one article+subcat, when it would all fit neatly in one category? --

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as a parent possibly is a sound organizational step in the long term, at this time there is not enough

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already exists. So I suppose such a tree could be built, though I don't know if that's a good idea. -

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Possibly. It could also be an error in the source, since there are news reports using 'JackHammers'

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I don't see the need to rename then upmerge. Just cut out the middleman and do it all at once. :) -

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per norm, as it would be unnecessary and generally out of line with category naming conventions at

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I think perhaps what Mangoe is saying is that the application of the category doesn't necessarily

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known as "police brutality." In other words, there are at least objective criteria for patrolling

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This nomination concerns only the category, not the userboxes (userboxes are outside the scope of

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member of the category, and is a significant contributor to our coverage of the topic. Cheers, --

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per the nominator's convincing argument. I would like to note, further, that the main article is

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potentially gain my support, but I didn't want to propose that here and sidetrack the proposal.

3602:. This means that, currently, there is not enough material to warrant an eponymous category. -- 3399:. I don't think I am authorized to close this dispute, so someone else should do it. Thank you! 2120:. There is consensus to want to categorise the head articles in some way, at least. So creating 1400:

indicates that Wilkins played for 'Joliet Jackhammers'. Then again, Baseball-Reference.com also

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has found this for another state. I have not checked them all, but I expect this is general.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2660: 2468: 2431:, purely specifying what is in it. I don't agree that this should be renamed and changed to a 2414: 2377: 2339: 2217:

I think the nominator wants to broaden use of the category to include more than just members.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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CamelCase! Thank you, I had been trying (unsuccessfully) to remember what it is called. :) --

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

563:. This is just splitting the universe of video game characters in half just because we can.-- 415:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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to Police conflicts in X. "Policy Brutality" is an unacceptable Point of View pushing term.

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More likely this just happened to be the one she encountered, or it's a test nomination. --

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without prejudice to a future nomination to discuss deletion of this and similar categories.

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as "Foo albums", so a rename is needed to accommodate the 2 album articles in this category.

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that contains only articles about individual state-level elections in Rhineland-Palatinate.

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The parent category is not yet so populated as to require splitting by state or territory

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Non-defining characteristic. Any fruit can be used for decoration, according to taste.

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how many people how often have to use a fruit to decorate for it to be so categorzied?

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If you would prefer to see them grouped together, please feel free to merge the two.

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No opinion on whether subcat containing alleged brutality should be kept or upmerged

1407:(in the target category) as having played for 'Joliet Jackhammers'. I have notified 4967: 3815: 3789: 3355:

want to raise the question of notability, you should probably open another thread.

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and to remove the word "members" in order to allow inclusion of the head article

5350:. The more specific categories are most definitely more useful and descriptive. 5268: 5047: 5035: 3303: 3258: 3243: 1404: 1040: 612: 3242:

I'm curious about how the category would work. For instance, the article about

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lists ten songs and two albums titled "If" (or similar), including the album

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so that anyone who wishes to create it will be directed to the new name. --

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