Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2012 June 7

4430:

like this on Knowledge (XXG) prefer that the image not be listed twice in both the main category and the subcategory and in some cases the sub sub category as it makes it appears as though there are more images needed than there are. Also, most of the people that do the tagging don't "know" what county category they go in, they just tag it for Idaho and keep moving so then someone would need to know what county it belongs in and then adjust it. In most cases that means someone has to go to each individual article where an image was needed and manually verify it. I would also note that not every state does it like this. Some have only a couple categories (like for people) some have over a hundred. Most of the state projects that have the county sub pcat system at least partially use it but it is a very time taking process and it requires a knowedge of the template syntax that most don't have so they just say the state (in this case Idaho) and someone else has to adjust it to be more precise. I will also go back and tag all the subcats.

1686:. The statement "unless a discussion at the article talkpage itself determined that sources treated it as a dissenting organization" makes me feel deeply uneasy and has made up my mind on the question. I am now for a "strong oppose". The statement could be taken to mean that the talk page is the arbitor of RC orthodoxy. It's not the function of Wiki to act as ecclesiastical court. The ACP self defines as RC. Their detractors cal them "dissenting voices". The ACP rejects these claims; who's to gainsay them? Is the ACP to be consigned to the marginals/crazies/dissidents sub-cats because of the propaganda of a few enemies? Unless there is an absolute excommunication by the Vatican, they may be presumed to be in good standing. So any sub-cat that purported to say otherwise would contract this working assumption and would indeed enter murky waters. Let's not go there. 973:. But "Category:Organizations of Catholics" is far too wide-ranging. It would include, for instance, any baseball or football team whose members are Catholics. The Catholic Church indicates that what it calls "associations of the Christian faithful" (i.e., associations in which Catholics "strive in a common endeavour to foster a more perfect life, to promote public worship or Christian doctrine, or to exercise other works of the apostolate such as initiatives of evangelization, works of piety or charity, and those which animate the temporal order with a Christian spirit") do not have to be in any sense "official": some are erected by Church authority, some are praised or commended by Church authority, but some are freely established by Catholics themselves by private agreement among themselves ( 1889:

more of the so-called Eastern Rite churches. There are, of course, some groups which contain members from all the rites, and I'm not entirely sure how to deal with all of them, but I do think it makes good sense to allow some articles which are directly relevant to only one or a small number of the groups in full communion with each other, with their archbishops or patriarchs among the voters for the Pope (which I think they all are?). Having said that, "Latin Rite Catholic Church organizations" is a longer term and possibly more confusing to some than "Roman Catholic Church organizations," and organizations only relevant to the Maronite Church or the Melkite Church, for example, would most reasonably be included in subcategories for those particular groups.

1113:" is a straw man. It is easy to provide evidence that an organization's existence and identification is in accordance with the views of the Catholic Church, and Canon Law would only come into play if there were a question of whether the organization was heretical or anti-Catholic. You are dismissing the Catholic Press, the decrees of the Vatican and Bishops, the activities of the organizations, (do they in some way openly cooperate with the Catholic Church, for instance, meeting in Churches, etc.) which are all readily searchable and Verifiable, as WP:OR. They are not. WP:RS takes into account context and how authoritative the sources are, and 2088:

swath of the readership of Knowledge (XXG) would simply look up "Catholic", and expect Roman Catholic and Eastern Catholic, there are also groups outside of that Communion that call themselves Catholic. Do you really want the top category to include on the same level and in the same category, for instance, Friends of Pope Michael, which they would not want or expect to see, and the Society of St Vincent de Paul? Because we do not live in an ideal world, where common sense would argue against such a thing, before we change to Catholic Church organizations, shouldn't a description and limitation of the category be written FIRST?--

1927:

Churches that ARE in union with Rome. I think the issue that has wide appeal is NOT to include the first two categories, but to definitely include the latter. Maronite, Malachite, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankar, Chaldean, Ambrosian, and the Uniate Coptic, Eastern, and Anglican use communities all are in union, but do not use the Roman Missal, and do not use the term Roman Catholic to describe themselves. The challenge is to come up with a phrasing to include all them, but not just make the (now) Roman Catholic category include non-Catholic or questionably Catholic organizations. Hope that helps.--

1213:, that might be helpful, since that no longer would require that the Catholic Church self-identify. It is destructive to change the useful category to something too vague, and which then allows ANY organization which decides to self-identify (even if not Catholic) as Catholic to be called Catholic. The new category would include every sports team of every Irish college, the guy in Kansas who lives in his mother's basement and has declared himself Pope, and is NOT what people would go to the category to find. Sub-categories do NOT need to destroy the original category. We could add 480:. This would include organizations of self-identified Catholics who are identified by reliable sources, eg. mainstream newspapers and academic books, as publicly dissenting against Catholic Faith (as in the Catechism) or Catholic discipline (as in the Canon Law), as long as the dissenting persists and has generated significant coverage. The threshold of coverage to include an organization in this subcat will be decided on a case-by-case basis. This shouldn't generate controversy, because dissenting organizations are often proud of their dissent. 977:"Organizations of Catholics" is also much wider than the notion of "Catholic organization", with which Roscelese links the proposal (above). With regard to this term, "Catholic organization", the Catholic Church's rule for its members is: "No association is to assume the name Catholic without the consent of competent ecclesiastical authority" (canon 300). Additional query: Would "Catholic Church organizations" perhaps be an appropriate category? It would at least be more clearly defined than the extremely wide "Organizations of Catholics". 2040:

simple unambiguous adjective that encompasses Roman Catholics, Syro-Malabar Catholics, and Byzantine Catholics alike. There is no reason I see to muddy the waters by using "Roman" or "Uniate" or "Latin Rite" (which is also an incorrect term; we would use "Roman Rite" or "Latin Church") If you use categories named simply "Catholic" then you will easily encompass all 23 Churches in communion with Rome and exclude those that are not. There is no reason to tack on unnecessary identifiers to narrow the field or muddy the waters here.

3385:

and it could include individuals for which we have sources that just say they died of undifferentiated plague. In this case it is not a case of us lumping together a now-discredited disease category into one that is medically accurate. The gout and apoplexy examples are cases where historically the diseases were given very broad definitions which in retrospect were not terribly accurate or precise, and today we have medically narrowed them down. However, this is an example of a historically

2830: 2826: 1742:

bishops that he perceives as lukewarm or unfaithful, but it is a good sign that he has chosen to be obedient in this matter. It has been suggested that the objection to his use of the term "Catholic" may have come about merely because he never sought express permission for it in the first place. At any rate, it also speaks to the visibility and influence of that apostolate; it is only after gaining notoriety that you will find yourself censured in some way by your bishop.

607:- I believe it is reasonable to ensure that those organizations which are included in a category referring to the "Roman Catholic Church" should be only those which are in some way officially affiliated with that body. That particular name is, more or less, an equivalent term to "US government". I cannot see any groups opposed to the US Government being included in such categories, given the confusion that would cause, and I can't see why this should be any different. 2822: 2138:

accept the authority of the Pope, and if you are going to use Catholic to describe any group after 1869 that does not accept the authority of the Pope you need to use some modifier with it. This is the only method of dealing with termonology that recognizes the reality of English usage. Before 1870 the issue is trickier, but from 1870 on it is clear that accepting the authority of the Pope is essential to actually being Catholic.

1831:

with the Bishop of Rome is part of the Roman Catholic Church. There is not a higher order or parent above the Roman Catholic Church that is somehow mystically part of the worldwide Catholic Church but not part of the Roman Catholic Church. The logical parents for the cat "Roman Catholic Church" is "Christian Churches". Another logical parent is those who used to be Roman Catholic but are no longer so; this cat already exists -

1140:- I've just come across this category myself, and I'm surprised we haven't split it a long time ago. It clearly makes sense to distinguish between organisations of Catholics and officially recognised Catholic Church organisations, and a category for 'dissident Catholic organisations' is probably a good idea as well, as long as reliable sources are used to identify them. Obvious solution to a longstanding problem. 225:, which says that references do not have to be easy for everyone to access. I use lots of subscription-required references, because those are often the highest-quality references available for a particular fact. I shudder to think of the damage a well-meaning editor might do in attempting to clear these two backlogs, replacing high-quality citations with less-reliable, less-informative, but easy-to-access sources. 586:, which have come into conflict with the RCC hierarchy, should be categorized as Catholic organizations. Some users opposed their inclusion, but removing them entirely from Catholic-related categories makes it difficult for users to find them. The proposal would make sure that all groups identifying as Catholic can be found somewhere in the category tree of organizations of Roman Catholics. – 3549:

Even so, I think that as understanding of the past evolves, so should our categorization. One could argue that, by doing so, we deviate from the source material; however, I consider this to be an organizational decision rather than original synthesis. After all, whereas it is true that all deaths from bubonic plague are deaths from plague, all plague deaths are not from bubonic plague.

3467: 921:, are groups organized by and/or for the Catholic laity. The one thing I think would be required for the category you propose is that the name would seem to at least strongly imply that the organizations are, in fact, primarily made up of Catholics of some sort or other. That might include organizations of former Catholics, as well as, potentially, organizations of 1604:, the Catholic Church doesn't distinguish between lay and clerical organizations, and some have members that belong to both. Also - the category should specifically identify for inclusion only those organizations listed by the Catholic church as Catholic. Anyone can claim that they are affiliated with the Catholic church, that doesn't make it so. 251:; as increasing numbers of newspaper & trade press sites now require registration, those tags could be placed on vast numbers of citations, and as stated above there is often nothing good to be done about it. (I see that one is empty already, so someone much have changed the template without waiting for this discussion to end.) – 1835:. In conclusion, unless a self-identifying Roman Catholic individual, order, society, bishop or cardinal is in the latter category, he may be presumed to be in the "Roman Catholic" category. To say otherwise is to abrogate powers of discernment, theology and judgement to Wiki that it does not have and should not have. 992:

your use of the associations of the faithful as criteria for inclusion in a broad, non-diffused category; for some of those we have affirmative sourcing that they've been recognized as such, but for the ones where we don't, we can't just assume without any sourcing that they belong based on canon law, because that's

1701:

made here or on a category talkpage. I don't think standing (wrt excommunication or not) is really the issue addressed by the proposed dissenting subcategory, but if you think the wording is unclear or suggests something incorrect, it'd be great if you'd suggest alternate wording. Does this address your concerns? –

1557:? It's not a lay organisation so the Lay sub-cat won't do. It's not an order or society. It's not sanctioned by the Vatican so it's not "official". But they are priests in good standing. Would a new category for "Dissenting voices" have to be created for it? In the current schema, it's just a RC organisation. 641:

CMRI call themselves Catholic, but are not, for very different reasons; should people be able to find them somewhere if they search the general category? Yes, but there should be a distinction, and the destruction of the existing category is not necessary. I would highly recommend the creation of the Category

2117:

I have no strong views about this, but I thought that I had been told in the past that WP had decided that the correct term for churches in communion with Rome was "Catholic". "Roman Catholic" has been adopted in UK as a distinction from "Anglo-Catholic", a wing of the Anglican Church. Accordingly,

1830:

etc. All these rites are compatible with the Roman Catholic Church, although in the case of the Byzantine rite, it is mostly used by the Eastern Orthodox churches not in communion with the Bishop of Rome. The essential point here is that any individual, order, society, bishop or cardinal in communion

1775:

The idea being to allow for the non-Roman organisations to be more correctly categorised. (Which appears to have decent consensual support above.) As the discussions are ongoing, this will give the ability for editors to start upmerging those articles and cats which don't directly belong under Roman.

1741:

It is an interesting observation, which might speak to the obedience of an organization that takes the trouble to rebrand itself after a single bishop raised the issue, especially after Voris contended that he might not be under the jurisdiction of that bishop. Voris has been known for standing up to

228:

There is value in checking paywall sources to see if the exact same content is available elsewhere for free, but these categories are of little use for that purpose, since there's no way to mark which references have already been checked. Basically, a backlog that can never be emptied is not a useful

4501:

As there are less than 200 articles in the state category, it is easy to review this list. Having to click down to each county sub-category is not productive. The map articles function at the head of the state page helps locate requests near a reviewer, not need for county organisation in this case.

4429:

To answer a couple of the questions. Yes the ctegories are populated by a couple templates. Some of the WikiProject banners includeing WPUS populate it as does Template:Image needed and I think a couple of others. The folks who more or less run the image tagging and maintenance aspect of image stuff

1903:

Hi, John C. Actually, I don't see the need to distinguish within the existing category, just to make it more specific as to inclusion. "Roman Catholic (and Uniate)" would be sufficient. Any organization that fits that description would be open to anyone who is Roman Catholic or Uniate, although some

1510:

My first comment was in reference to - say - an organization aimed at prosecuting, or advocating for the victims of, Catholic Church sexual abuse, but which was not made up primarily of Catholics and did not identify itself as a Catholic organization. Or perhaps an organization whose relationship to

1479:

is such-n-such organisation "related" to the Catholic Church? Through dissent? Through agreement? How many degrees of dissent does an organisation need to be dissenting? How many degrees must an organisation need to be agreeing? How do we determine "official"? Is it because it has the sponsorship of

1395:

CC-related organizations could also work instead of "organizations of Catholics" (the intended parent category), but I worry that it would seem to include organizations whose activities are related to the RCC but whose membership or identification is not Catholic. Perhaps, however, these worries are

991:

Your proposal doesn't change in any way the problem that this proposal is trying to solve, though. I and other users agree that "(Roman) Catholic Church organizations" says or connotes that the organizations are official, but that's not the case with the groups we're trying to categorize. I question

2137:

Attempts to pretend that Catholic can be logically used to link those who accept the authority of the Pope and those who reject his authority in any other coherent system is in the end an attempt to twist the term from its actual meaning in spoken English. In english usage Catholic means those who

1926:

Hi, Laurel Lodged; I understand both points, perhaps a re-phrasing is in order. It is important that we distinguish, as you have said, between i) Organizations that loosely use the term Catholic, ii) that use the term Catholic, but which are not in communion with Rome, and iii) those many component

1700:

Talkpage discussion certainly would not be based on personal opinion, but rather on the sources about that topic (and not just sources reporting that the group's been criticized by the church hierarchy). I specified the article talkpage in order to clarify that such a decision would probably not be

1357:

Also, slight problem with change of Roman Catholic to Catholic, rather than the more specific Roman (or Uniate) Catholic. Catholic could mean any number of religious groups. For instance, you could argue that Catholic WomenPriests , while not Roman Catholic, is Catholic of a kind (though they never

1295:

organizations that have been officially recognized would leave even more articles uncategorized and make the readers' task even more difficult. Your scaremongering slippery-slope argument about people categorizing the Nazi Party or college sports teams in this category is unconvincing, and does not

1154:

I think there is definitely consensus that 1) Subcategorization would be good, 2) use of the term "Roman Catholic" should be expanded to include Uniate (the official term) Catholics, and that 3) a category of Dissident Catholic organizations or Organizations of dissident Catholics (I think once you

939:

Yeah, that (making clear on the page what defines inclusion) is the plan. In my view, "Organizations of Catholics" would be a top-level category for any Catholic organization, while more specific subcategories (like Old Catholics, Catholics in political disagreement, official church projects, etc.)

640:

Well, not quite. A group that exists and is affiliated with the Catholic Church, but which does not have any "official" approval at the present would probably be included IF its inclusion were non-controversial. You are talking about groups for which their Catholicity IS controversial. Both CFC and

563:

Is it my imagination or is this a cover for smothering voices that disagree with some rule of the RC Church? Is this an attempt to pigeon-hole all those that engage in debate or theological inquiry? Those theologians in the Curia that engage in the same debate and inquiry may then assume the mantle

3548:

I have no clear answer to BHG's question about whether the categories are primarily medical or historical. Plague is not so common nowadays that it claims the lives of large numbers of notable people (i.e., who have or might have articles), so there is a sense that these categories are historical.

3384:

type of plague. So the proposal would only be making the category broader—it could include any individuals for which we have sources that say they died of bubonic plague, and it could also include individuals for which we have sources that say they died of one of the two other two types of plague,

2039:

to show that Eastern Catholics do not necessarily enjoy being called Roman Catholics. Also, "Uniate" is a derogatory term now for the past several decades. I do not know any self-respecting Eastern Catholic who would call himself a Uniate. The correct term for these people is "Catholic". This is a

1472:

It sounds like you re looking for organisations which have catholic members, as opposed to those who don't. And looking for organisations which are catholic-related in some way, as opposed to those who are not. If so, that's a problem because tying together those strands of connection can be very

1888:

Jc37 has a point here. We do have some good reasonable cause to want to differentiate between groups which may well exist, or have existed, within the Latin rite Roman Catholic church exclusively and, perhaps, other groups which, for whatever reason, might only exist or have existed within one or

2233:

There is general sentiment that we should have a category that includes the WHOLE of the Catholic Church, including organizations OF the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches, and that if we can AVOID confusion, making Catholic the top category is fine, as long as we make sure to NOT include small

2087:

More than happy to defer to you both and gleefully call all Roman Catholic, Eastern Rite Catholics, and their legitimate organizations simply Catholic Church organizations. Problem is, we have a problem, separate from the issue of the many Rites within the purview of the Pontiff. Although a vast

2576:

in Oxfordshire, England. Informal areas with imprecise boundaries make for very poor categories, because their inclusion criteria are either subjective or arbitrary ... and in this case, the head article appears to have no references in reliable sources to justify its existence. Regardless of

2021:

Hi, Esoglu; that is to some extent the point that I was making. The third category I referred to, "many component Churches that ARE in union with Rome" are the list that I then used. They ARE in union with Rome, part of the Roman Catholic communion, they just don't usually use the words "Roman

1959:

Hi, Laurel; all of the communities I listed ARE in union with Rome, and CAN be described as RC, it is just that THEY do not use the words "Roman Catholic" to describe their union. The proper term is "Uniate". They have Bishops that are parallel to the Territorial Roman Rite Bishops, and have a

1618:

A lot of people seem to be harping on "lay." I've replaced it with "unofficial" in the proposal, since that is the actual intent - the parent category would encompass all Catholic organizations, with those set up by the church hierarchy as a subcat. Can you explain how you propose to deal with

3551:

I find Lenticel's suggestion to be intriguing: nothing prevents us, in principle, from categorizing deaths from bubonic plague as a subset of plague deaths in general. In my opinion, neither one would need subdivision by century—the combined use of one category for deaths by cause and another

277:(emphasis on the first only). Such a category would allow us to identify articles that rely exclusively on paywall material, and seek out more democratically accessible alternatives where available. I do think we should make an effort to utilize accessible sources, all other factors the same. 1396:

as baseless as the worries that "organizations of Catholics" would include baseball teams with a lot of Hispanic players or fascist parties that don't specifically identify as Catholic. Can you elaborate on your concerns about broadness? (CC orgs, etc. is, as I and other users have said, too

3271:

infection. Although it has been traditional to assume that anyone who died of plague died of "bubonic" plague (the most common of the three types), that assumption has been questioned in more modern times. When dealing with historical deaths, it is difficult to determine with certainty what

1945:. This is because they are not in communion with the Holy See and so do not self-identify as RC. The problem before us, as I see it, is limited to those people and organisations that self-identify as RC and how to sub-categogise them (or indeed whther they should be sub-categorised at all). 4343:

In addition to the one I have nominated here I also recommend deleting the following group of categories. These categories were made to try and better organize the images needed for articles relating to Idaho by county but most are empty and probably always will be. In my opinion this over

3958:

The subject category seems to have been emptied out of process; the target category only contains a single article which I think is miscategorized, and the US Navy bands category, which in comparison to its Army counterpart is already properly categorized without this "music" category.

698:

As defined by the Church itself, a (Catholic) lay society is one that is not clerical, clerical ones being those that "are under the direction of clerics, assume the exercise of sacred orders, and are recognized as such by competent authority" (Code of Canon Law, canon 302). See also

1285:

organizations (no implication of unofficial ones that have been identified as Catholic), leaving all others high and dry. A category with those criteria would be preserved under a clearer name. It would just be a subcategory of a larger category. I'm also not sure you understand what

2193:

categories are meant to use words in a way that reflects their meaning in actual use, not their etymology. The word Catholic in actual English usage refers to the Roman Catholic Church, members of that Church and so forth. In real English usage it does not mean "universal" in most

4404:. If I was in Idaho and was looking for photographic gaps to fill in my area, then I would find the by-counties very useful in identifying locations near me. So I like the principle of the scheme, and the fact that it is being underused for now seems to me to no reason to delete it. 2862:- I know it looks odd, but 'Marxian' is the adjective used in economics rather than 'Marxist'. (Whether there is any difference between 'Marxist economics' and 'Marxian economics' is not a question that can be resolved in this CFD, but the latter is the preferred term.) 2234:

groups that use the term, but are not in communion, probably with a restrictive description of the Category. That does NOT mean that scrapping the category in favor of a category of orgs TO WHICH some fraction of Catholics belong is positive or supported by any.--

1030:

of the organization should indicate a connection with the category, but even then he wrote: "The one thing I think would be required for the category you propose is that the name would seem to at least strongly imply that the organizations are, in fact, primarily

3347:, then surely they should capture either a) the historic significance attached to what has been labelled for the last centuries as "bubonic plague", and will be the term used in most sources; or, b) the much more varied terminology used in contemporary accounts. 1776:

If it turns out in the end that this doesn't have consensus, it would be a simple matter to re-merge this category. But at least this would help start a way forward. I welcome thoughts on this, and please feel free to start re-categorising as appropriate. -

1173:

As I explain both above and below, nothing will be lost or destroyed here, except confusion and ambiguity. The existing category (most likely under a better name) would simply be joined by more categories that would allow us to better organize our articles.

1263:. The Nazis were not a Catholic Organization. Clear exclusion from the Category. There were Catholics that were Nazis, and reductio ad Hitlerum for the war years is still present. The new proposed general Category is open to abuse, and unnecessary abuse. -- 717:

I'm aware of the formal definition, yes, but there are a number of articles in it that don't seem to fit that definition (and thus I wondered if a previous definition had established, for WP use, a broader definition for inclusion). I was wondering if

3522:

is what helped clinch it for me. We simply have no real way (on Knowledge (XXG) at least) to go into the past with modern technology to find out which version of "the plague" someone had. And since we're also bound to using references and not our own

621:

That was what prompted the discussion, but the problem is broader: as you say, the current title implies that all contained groups are officially affiliated, but that's not the case even with many groups that haven't been criticized by the hierarchy.

379:: I'm reminded that this never happened after the compromise proposal last year (there were a few users in support and one in opposition, no real consensus either way) so hopefully this will generate more interest. The complete proposal can be read 1290:

which identifies. Within the category scheme we have proposed, it could also be possible to subcategorize organizations singled out as Catholic by the church hierarchy, if properly sourced; but your proposal to include in the whole category scheme

4519:

deletion after upmerging the three articles in these categories. No objection to recreation when the parent category grows so large that navigation is affected. Subcategories can then be created if there are ample articles to populate them.

4344:

categorization actually makes things more difficult to track the images needed for Idaho related articles. It takes a lot of time to identify them and add them to the category and even then each category would likely only have a couple in it.

3541:

per nom. While the proposed change results in a loss of specificity, it more than compensates for this loss by improving accuracy. Many categorized articles do not mention bubonic plague specifically, attributing death to "plague" or the

1515:

to the Catholic Church, but it's not what we're trying to categorize here. However, as I said, this worry may be unnecessary, and CC-related organizations may be a perfectly fine name, especially if we clarify in category text what it is

380: 2022:

Catholic" to describe themselves (with the exception of the Milanese). I did not want that proper terminology (aka including the words "and Uniate") to be confused with adding in groups that clearly do NOT belong (aka groups i and ii)--

2936:. This matches the current structure of other categories for TV WikiProject task forces. If the task force categories should be renamed, there should be a consensus gathered for renaming all of them, rather than singling this one out. 1984:. Your claim that, for instance, Maronites do not call themselves Roman Catholics is unfounded and, perhaps more important in Knowledge (XXG), is unsourced; in fact, they are reported to be proud to call themselves Roman Catholics ( 1323:

as it currently stands. - Some of these suggestions are going to lead to some very broad categories due to ambiguities (some of which are noted in the discussion above). For example, I think the proposed parent might be better named

3342:

However, my immediate concern is a little narrower, and it relates to what these categories are for. Briefly, if these categories are primarily medical, then there is a good case for following the latest research; but if they are

2258:. With organisations as large as these churches, references should come easy to support your view. After all, our guidelines are that we generally name categories based upon what they call themselves, and what they are called in 1519:

As we say in the proposal, organizations would be in the parent category by default. Affirmative sourcing (with a conversation on the talk page to determine what is sufficient) would be necessary to place it in a subcategory.

1353:

Curious; why a list and not a Category? Could certainly subcategorize Dissenting groups as to issue, such as Vatican II, Vatican I, Sedevacantism, Women's Ordination, Abortion, Governance, Parish Closings, Abuse Oversight,

1788:

Could you and the other users concerned with Roman vs. non-Roman make sure to add appropriate notes to the categories, to make sure that nothing is improperly categorized? (eg. RCC stuff under CC if that's not the intent)

3451:- "Plague (disease)" is ambiguous; "plague" is used to describe generically any number of infectious diseases in ye olden days when medicine was at the "let's drill a hole in his skull" level; it may or may not refer to 3393:

class of disease that is also still recognized. And we do have articles about people who verifiably died from the pneumonic and septicemic varieties. Do we really want to break these ones out into separate categories?

722:

category would be useful to consider in the category scheme, for lay orgs, but it seems that the better solution would be to continue with the current proposal and simply remove improper entries from the lay socs cat.

221:. They are maintenance categories, implying that efforts should be made to empty them, which would mean removing all references to sites that require registration or a subscription. This is in clear contradiction of 4213: 2340:- There seems to essentially be agreement on how the final product should look. So while going with FL's structural final version, going with BHG's plan of action if only because it keeps the edit history intact. - 4268: 780:

category tree, which uses "Roman Catholic orgs by century," etc. What solution would you propose? Would it work if the proposal was the same with the exception of substituting "Catholic" for "Roman Catholic"?

3379:

I can see your point, and agree that it could be a concern, especially with the by-century subcategories. I think I would largely agree but for one point: bubonic plague is—medically speaking—simply a more

3357:) -- and that broad meaning of "apoplexy" survived well into the 19th century. How should the category system deal with all this? Can it accommodate it without some degree of anachronism or synthesis? -- 3002:. This is a project categorization, not a content categorization. Since there are many "hero task forces" in comics fiction, mythology and legend, the suggested target is ambiguous, so should be renamed. 4123: 3322:

I don't think that there is an easy answer to this, because while our policies are very clear, the application of contemporary scientific analysis clashes directly with several of our core policies.

996:. That would continue to leave many organizations without an important container category. And lastly, I think it's obvious that "organizations of Catholics" would not encompass a sports team that 3330:, is one of the fundamental requirements for inclusion in Knowledge (XXG)" (emphasis in original), but in this case the proposal is to dump verifiabilty in favour of a scientific version of truth. 1035:" (emphasis added). There are many organizations officially recognized by the Church (and surely these should be included?) whose names in no way indicate a connection with Catholicism: take " 899:

Would you also support the "organizations of Catholics" language, as proposed above, for a top-level category, with subcategories for official, conflicting or dissenting, etc. as appropriate? –

485:

Affirmative sourcing will be necessary to include an organization either in the "official" category or in the "dissenting" category. Such sourcing being absent, the organization will remain in

758:

Churches in communion with Rome, and some members of 22 of those Churches would strongly object to being called "Roman Catholic" because this has the connotation of being associated with the

1109:

I think the argument that the category inclusion needs to be so extraordinarily broad because "we can't just assume without any sourcing that they belong based on canon law, because that's

1727:

about an organization that removed the word "Catholic" from its name "after a dispute with the Archdiocese of Detroit about its right to use the term under canon law" may be of interest.

1358:

reveal their Apostolic bona fides - for arguments sake lets put that aside), but also a Dissenting Catholic organizations, since it is at least 60% protest at the Roman Catholic Church. --

4406:

I presume that these categories are being populated via a template, so why not tweak the template so that articles are added both to the by-county categories and an all-Idaho category? --

925:. I think it would make sense if the category itself contained a clear statement on the category page as to what exactly qualifies an organization for inclusion in one of the categories. 3546:, which saw the bubonic, pneumonic and septicemic forms. Although the bubonic form is the most infamous, we cannot assume that any historical plague death was a result of bubonic plague. 3316:. According to our policies, that is undoubtedly how they should remain categorised, because re-labelling them on the basis of generalised research centuries later is a blatant form of 3514:(and after that I merely say "per nom"? Say it isn't so! : ) - Kidding aside, while I agree that "plague" can be a broader term, I think other words are more used these days for such 179: 3093:. While I agree that the whole task force/work group structures (not just the television ones) should be discussed, I don't think we should single out just this one in this case. - 3276:

of plague someone died of. For that reason, it's best to have a category that groups all deaths from plague rather than one that singles out bubonic plague. The parent category is

1579:, unless a discussion at the article talkpage itself determined that sources treated it as a dissenting organization, in which case it would go in the proposed dissenting subcat. – 42: 37: 1459:. Perhaps, however, these worries are as baseless as the worries that "organizations of Catholics" would include baseball teams with a lot of Hispanic players or fascist parties 2744:: I had never in my life heard of "Marxian" before a couple of days ago. Using AWB and category recursive to three levels, there are three articles with "Marxian" in the name: 4051: 885:

or some such similar title would be both less ambiguous and I believe a better description for groups of Catholics who in some way oppose the "power structure" of the Church.

564:

of "official", thereby consigning the others to unofficial, second-rate and possibly heretical? Debate is debate. Inquiry is inquiry. Should Wiki aid and abet Curial purges?

3236: 3224: 3212: 3200: 1084: 171: 1864:. So yes, while certain Catholic churches may (or may not) be in communion with each other, and while they may recognise papal authority, the others are not necessarily 1338:

they are dissident. There isn't just a single issue or even group of issues which unites such organisations. Another way to do what I think is the intent here might be:

438: 162: 2362: 754:

without setting up a parallel heirarchy with which to categorize Eastern Catholic organizations of the same type. The "Roman Catholic Church" is a communion of 23

467:. This category would include only official organizations. The Catholic League for example would be excluded - they may not be dissident, but they are unofficial. 4328: 4318: 4198: 4163: 4090: 4082: 1877:

which show otherwise. (And no, I'm not interested in re-fighting the crusades, nor in the arguments of various church historians regarding Peter and James : )-

4283: 4238: 4138: 141: 4308: 4278: 4248: 4168: 4298: 4273: 4228: 4218: 4183: 4148: 4143: 4133: 2423: 2393: 1769: 1329: 434: 369: 4323: 4293: 4288: 4243: 4208: 4203: 4188: 4158: 4153: 1088: 4313: 4303: 4263: 4258: 4253: 4233: 4193: 4178: 4173: 4128: 4073: 3589:

By the way, I share The Bushranger's dislike of "plague (disease)", but I think that any related change would need to begin at the article's talk page. --

3090: 4223: 274: 133: 2604: 21: 4379:. AFAICS, none of the categories whose talk pages are listed in the collapsed box has been tagged, so they should not be changed by this discussion. -- 3353:" to be used as a generic term for what medicine now sees as a wide range of diseases, whilst a range of rapid deaths were labelled as "apoplexy" (see 232:

We could simply remove the backlog notice and instructions to empty the categories, but then I see no remaining reason for these categories to exist.

124: 3063: 3038: 882: 387:

unofficial organizations (like the Catholic League) which are currently mixed in the category, without leaving either sans a container category. –

3437:. We might be able to sift the verified bubonic plague cases and put them to the daughter cat while the unclear ones stays with the parent cat -- 1832: 1155:

agree that they are "dissident", also adding that they are not "official" is redundant) would be a good addition, and adding it to a category of

383:, but in summary, we aim to create a category structure that distinguishes between official church organizations (like the Synod of Bishops) and 1241:

to the end, which would almost by definition not need approval of the Church, and could be sorted according to the component orgs' complaint. --

1226: 3167: 2405: 2389: 1765: 1663:

It seems to be fairly comprehensive and it could probably serve as a basis for determining status of at least the numerous groups it mentions.

1325: 256: 1810:

There is no such thing as a Catholic Church organisation that exists outside the Roman Catholic Church. There are many denominations, such as

17: 4418: 4391: 3931: 3762: 3564: 3430: 3369: 3188: 2619: 2589: 2438: 2358: 700: 105: 4484:. The listed categories by my count contain a total of 1 article. The parent has one other subcategory with 8 articles and 119 articles. 3294:. I commend the nominator for a thoughtful and well-reasoned rationale, but I think that this case reveals an undiscussed flaw in the whole 3034: 2600: 4358:

I do recommend leaving the category for people in place. I believe this is an important distinction of articles needed and should be kept.

460: 1976:

Hi, 209.6.69.227. You can be a (Roman) Catholic without using the Roman Missal. For instance, in Milan they do not use it (they use the

3042: 3003: 2802: 2999: 1814:, that self-identify as Catholic; they would not, however, claim to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Similarly, there are many 1218: 3232: 3220: 3208: 3196: 2235: 2089: 2023: 1961: 1928: 1905: 1359: 1264: 1242: 1160: 1118: 650: 447: 1222: 1339: 1209:

it defines the component articles as orgs the Catholic Church self-identifies as Catholic. If someone wanted to add a new Category,

970: 503: 473: 451: 1724: 1419: 1857: 2995: 2818: 2212:

currently have a category structure that allows us to categorize organizations related to or made up of members of the church. –

2221: 1798: 1710: 1632: 1619:

Catholic organizations whose endorsement by the hierarchy cannot be sourced? They're not all dissident, and removing them from

1588: 1572: 1554: 1529: 1442: 1409: 1332:, which I suppose could presumably become a subcat.) Also, dissident organisations should be a list not a category, so to note 1305: 1183: 1156: 1066: 1009: 949: 908: 865: 822: 790: 732: 689: 677: 631: 595: 547: 529: 396: 3888: 2577:

whether the head article is kept, a category for a vague and informal geographical area seems to be misleading to readers. --

1202: 1079:

name (not the organization's) to indicate only that the organizations are "primarily" made up of Catholics, not that they are

1000:

to have a lot of Catholics (but it would - and should - encompass a Catholic equivalent of Maccabi or Athletes in Action!). –

215: 205: 4502:

If the state category gets large, as is the situation with some states, then some county sub-categories can be recreated. --

3086: 3017: 2933: 2118:

the policy should be to rename RC to "Catholic", except where there is a good reason for retaining the adjective "Roman".

3717: 1214: 646: 3575: 3560: 3434: 3184: 1576: 486: 477: 464: 430: 3295: 4549: 4035: 4007: 3854: 3826: 3645: 3617: 3463:

as "bubonic plague" (even though, IIRC, the other two kinds are even nastier - septicemic plague can kill within a day

3147: 3119: 2919: 2891: 2692: 2664: 2491: 2463: 2325: 2297: 1860:, for just one example.) The Pope is (as has been the tradition for well over a thousand years from what I understand) 1400:

for a parent cat; other proposals may be broad-sounding but I don't think that in practice they will be problematic.) –

334: 306: 78: 2778: 2730: 2726: 1238: 1210: 1159:

would not be opposed. The contentious part of the proposal is destroying the useful categories that presently exist.--

642: 1281:

inclusion criteria, which is part of the problem. As John Carter points out, it seems to restrict inclusion only to

3173: 2958: 2749: 2411: 1575:

has been noted but it seems that that won't really affect the discussion.) ACP would go in the top-level category,

262: 4529: 4511: 4493: 4476: 4453: 4439: 4396: 4367: 4353: 4060: 3987: 3968: 3950: 3936: 3909: 3876: 3806: 3785: 3767: 3728: 3675: 3595: 3584: 3533: 3506: 3486: 3443: 3417: 3398: 3374: 3284: 3176: 3099: 3077: 3050: 3029: 3011: 2984: 2945: 2871: 2854: 2810: 2787: 2718: 2644: 2624: 2594: 2517: 2443: 2414: 2381: 2346: 2271: 2243: 2225: 2203: 2181: 2147: 2127: 2097: 2082: 2049: 2031: 2016: 1969: 1954: 1936: 1913: 1898: 1883: 1844: 1802: 1782: 1751: 1736: 1714: 1695: 1672: 1654: 1636: 1613: 1592: 1566: 1533: 1505: 1446: 1428: 1413: 1388: 1367: 1348: 1309: 1272: 1250: 1187: 1168: 1149: 1126: 1100: 1070: 1048: 1036: 1013: 986: 953: 934: 912: 894: 869: 851: 826: 808: 794: 771: 736: 712: 693: 658: 635: 616: 599: 573: 551: 533: 515: 400: 358: 286: 265: 241: 110: 3927: 3758: 3365: 3340:

have, since the question of how to apply new scientific research to historical topics has very wide implications.

3277: 2954: 2615: 2585: 2434: 2199: 2171:

I suppose I could point you to all sorts of references for this, but for now, how about our own article on this?

2143: 2058: 1992: 1342:. Also, the word "official" is really problematic in this case. Perhaps the word "sponsored" would be better? - 751: 101: 2825:

are the standard terms in recent economic scholarship for this distinct tradition of economic thought. See also

2535: 3981: 3669: 3480: 3071: 2712: 2511: 842:

the proposal as rewritten today. And I am sure that many Eastern Catholics will thank you for being inclusive.

3687: 3556:

category should more than suffice—but that is probably best left for another nomination. Therefore, I support

1941:

I think that I agree with the above. But I also think that we don't need a new category for those churches in

2396:. Actually, there are only 11 pages, so it doesn't need a bot to assist with the work, especially if you use 2372:

All schools displayed are Secondary schools in North Lanarkshire, the new name therefore is more accurate. --

538:

Fixed. Or rather, per Elizium's suggestion, everything now conforms to that phrasing instead of vice versa. –

3884: 3046: 3007: 2806: 2782: 2123: 1950: 1840: 1691: 1562: 569: 354: 3472: 3460: 2526: 4414: 4387: 2850: 2239: 2093: 2027: 1965: 1932: 1909: 1363: 1268: 1246: 1164: 1122: 654: 3494:- I think everyone has made some excellent points here. (And anytime someone asks what an XfD discussion 4545: 4525: 4507: 4489: 4472: 4031: 4003: 3850: 3822: 3641: 3613: 3163: 3143: 3115: 2941: 2915: 2887: 2688: 2660: 2543: 2487: 2459: 2401: 2321: 2293: 2062: 2004: 2000: 1894: 1668: 1609: 930: 890: 612: 579: 511: 330: 302: 252: 74: 273:: It would be nice to have a category for articles that contain exclusively paywall material. That is, 4407: 4380: 3920: 3873: 3794: 3776: 3751: 3739: 3721: 3705: 3661: 3358: 2753: 2608: 2578: 2427: 2195: 2139: 1485: 1455:"but I worry that it would seem to include organizations whose activities are related to the RCC but 583: 94: 1904:

may predominantly represent one arm of that Communion by heritage, there is no necessary division.--

917:

It would be acceptable. I might prefer a specific subcat of "Catholic lay societies," which, as per

578:

The discussion that prompted this compromise proposal was about whether Catholic organizations like

222: 3977: 3906: 3725: 3665: 3476: 3395: 3281: 3067: 3025: 2980: 2708: 2507: 2217: 2045: 1794: 1747: 1706: 1650: 1628: 1584: 1525: 1438: 1405: 1301: 1179: 1062: 1005: 945: 904: 861: 847: 818: 804: 786: 767: 728: 685: 627: 591: 543: 525: 392: 282: 4449: 4435: 4363: 4349: 3683: 2972: 2397: 1382:

I didn't understand your "for instance" example in relation to the previous. could you clarify? -

3902: 2867: 2377: 2119: 1946: 1942: 1851: 1836: 1687: 1558: 1145: 940:

would all be placed in that category and have more specific criteria for inclusion of articles. –

565: 350: 2036: 4544:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4002:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3821:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3802: 3612:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3591: 3580: 3262: 3114:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2886:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2846: 2745: 2659:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2640: 2458:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2292:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2078: 2012: 1732: 1096: 1091:

by the Catholic Church, and which has Lutheran, Orthodox, Calvinist and Evangelical members.

1044: 982: 708: 418: 301:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

237: 4030:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3849:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3640:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3142:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2914:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2760:

be a simple speedy nomination, but it seems like somethings afoot here--can anyone clarify? —

2687:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2486:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2320:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1645:

distinguishes between lay and clerical organizations. See Code of Canon Law, canons 327-329.

329:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

73:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4521: 4503: 4485: 4468: 3964: 3309: 3258: 3250: 2937: 2392:, but keep or re-create the old category as a head category, being part of the hierarchy in 1890: 1856:- Actually, AFAIK, the church you are referring to is the Catholic Church. (See the name of 1664: 1605: 1296:

address the (real, rather than hypothetical) concerns the proposal was created to address. –

926: 886: 608: 507: 3317: 1493: 3870: 3413: 3267: 2838: 2774: 2070: 3524: 3349:

This dilemma does not apply only to plague. In 17th-century Britain, it was common for "

3313: 2262: 1874: 1373: 1110: 993: 1985: 1039:". Whatever problem you think your proposal would solve, it seems to create new ones. 3305: 3254: 3021: 2976: 2213: 2041: 1977: 1827: 1823: 1790: 1743: 1702: 1646: 1624: 1580: 1521: 1434: 1401: 1297: 1175: 1058: 1001: 941: 900: 857: 843: 814: 800: 782: 763: 724: 681: 623: 587: 539: 521: 422: 388: 278: 3708:

in category space. There is not one article about the Muslim festivals, but there are

3323: 2400:; just create the new name as a sub-category and go ahead with moving the articles. – 2259: 1871: 1075:

I think your interpretation of John Carter must be right. In that case, he wants the

3945: 3780: 3438: 3312:), and that will be the label applied to the overwhelming majority of these cases in 2863: 2834: 2373: 1141: 922: 1255:

Repeat in isolation, for clarity. You are changing the self-identification from the

4445: 4431: 4359: 4345: 3798: 3571:

the by-cenutry categories (failing that, renaming them as nominated) and, finally,

3455:. While it is indeed true that there are three different kinds of plague caused by 3336:

discussion about the merits of both approaches, and maybe that's the discussion we

3333: 2636: 2569: 2165: 2074: 2008: 1996: 1981: 1728: 1092: 1040: 978: 856:

Great, thanks! Would you mind striking your earlier objection to avoid confusion? –

759: 704: 233: 974: 3389:

category—which is still medically valid, I would emphasise—being placed within a

2572:", which the head article describes as an "informal area" centred on the town of 918: 520:

A slip, perhaps? I doubt there was a reason for it, so I'll bring that in line. –

3960: 3747: 3743: 3713: 3709: 3543: 3301: 1811: 433:

for any religious organization of self-identified Catholics. This will replace

163:

Category:Pages containing links or citations to sites that require registration

3409: 2842: 2761: 2061:

dislike being called Roman Catholics. Not all. Have you read the article on

1819: 1481: 1286:"self-identification" means...as the word would imply, it is the organization 1234: 349:

There does appear to be consensus to allow a "Dissenting" category, though.--

4056: 3529: 3527:, then I think we're also probably stuck with their verbiage of the time. - 3502: 3095: 2342: 2267: 2177: 1879: 1778: 1501: 1424: 1384: 1344: 755: 4024: