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662:. Are all "alchemists" going to be actually better considered "mages"? I'm personally much more familiar with "alchemists" as a term than "mages". I'm not averse to mages if it's in current use as a term applied to real people. I'm just more used to seeing it only in fiction. If the real-life alchemists & real-life mages are significantly overlapping, then shouldn't we just pick one or the other? Or are you saying that alchemists are a subcategory of mages? I'm confused. -- 2407:. I do not believe UK has had a sufficient number of them at any era to warrant a split by period. Certainly, in recent times, the number of brands of a given type of weapon is small. There is an active arms trade, so that they are exported to many countries. If we allow national categories, some weapons will get dozens of categories, but they will essentially be performance (Use by armed forces of foo) by performer (weapon) categories, something we do not encourage. 979:. The award does not "define" the folks who received it; rather, the award recognizes achievements they have made. While the award is well-known within the relevant circles (librarians, freedom of information, etc.), it is not going to be generally well-known enough to "define" anybody who receives it -- and it won't even define the winners to those of us who know and appreciate the award. Listify winners at 2329: 2380:, although there isn't (yet) a "Military equipment of the post–Cold War period" category. Note: There are other categories that use the word "modern" inconsistently, but that's not a good reason not to fix this one. Note: Previous CFDs to reduce the use of "modern" in military equipment categories include 3198:
Calling 'African' an ethnicity is stretching things a bit, frankly - though I guess it depends on where in the world you are and who is surrounding you - and African, broadly described, is not really a race either (there are people with many different colors of skin in Africa, from white to dark). In
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is for "Weapons of the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries") so in cases like this it's best to avoid the m-word. There's only one article in the category and that's for a SAM that entered service in 1997 so it fits the new cat name. This change would also make this category more consistent with categories
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has Angel, Faith, Spike, and other in-universe but non-Buffy focused titles. Is that right? If so, then it might make sense to keep the categories separate, but we should figure out some naming protocol to make that distinction apparent in the category names themselves. Because right now it isn't.
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Actually, last rung on the ladder *doesn't* apply to everything - it only applies to small categories, not otherwise divided, that would tend to cause ghettoization. This is a classic example of same - American screenwriters is not otherwise divisible, so if people see a head cat and a subcat, their
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Other than seperating out television writers in some cases (which is a debateable practice in an of itself, is the line between television and film screen writing really that clear, when some episode pilots that fail get turned into films?) there is no by genre subdivision of these categories, so at
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I do not think we need such a fine distinction. This seems border-line "based on what they are named". I know someone will come back and say "if we are going to merge everything in the same universe, than we need to merge Batman and Superman things." Well, those just seem much more distinct than
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As a simple note from a person who likes fantasy and horror works, the basic semantic difference between the terms is that some writers apply the term wizard/witch to people who gain their skills through long-term study, and the terms sorcerer/sorceress to those who either have hereditary powers or
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an intersect category, as anybody who is or was African-American has both Africa and America in his ancestry. Also, you have failed to address the issue of overcategorization. Even if there was a logical argument for these categories in the abstract, categories with only 1-2 pages in them are
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is otherwise divided by nationality, so the tendency would be to place them in Women + the nationality cat. These cats should just go - if you want women screenwriters, the category will exist - but the by-nationality tends to ghettoize - it's just the nature of how things work and
3037:, since anybody who's of African-American descent is logically also of American and African descent. I am also nominating the following categories on similar grounds. None of these categories has more than two entries, playing in to my "too specific an intersection" argument 511: 293:
per nom. The reason for the previous merges was that the parent categories are not really populated enough to warrant subcategories. In this case "Category:Women writers from Pennsylvania" only has 21 articles and probably needs more attention, not splitting.
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per nom, it is clear that in the view of some sorcerers/sorcerecesses are different that withces or wizards, and this is the term used in the fiction. I do not think we need to split this category by gender though, since some others think sorcerer is gender
3250:. African-American is an ethnicity first and foremost, and I don't think we should bubble this all the way to "African descent", which I would argue is intended for people whose ancestors came directly from various African countries in the near past.-- 2597:- This award is not a "defining" award; it is simply a recognition of features that make something otherwise notable. The information should be listed on the appropriate award page and not used as a category. -- 2042:, which makes the award. At this point, the award itself is apparently rather new and does not have its own entry; the only two members added to this category since it was created in 2010 can be listed there. 1630:
is a perfectly appropriate gendered category, and all of these subcategories are normal national subdivisions of the gendered category. If we want to get rid of national subdivision guidance I'm okay with that.
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The idea is that the parent category can not be split further, not that we cannot subdivide the gender category. If the latter was the case than the only by gender categories we would have would be for
3203:) - so the word "African" is really a continental/national container category, and certainly not a racial or ethnic one. But I'd prefer this not descend into a debate about the social deconstruction of 449:, which can be male or female). But "sorceresses" is definitely female-only, and is a legitimate term for a category. Thus, I'd expand the name without expanding the scope. Failing that, I'd merge 2425:
Well, that's a blue-link so it would be an upmerge rather than a rename and wouldn't the upmerge need to be to all 3 parent cats ? It should only be in one national category - see the text at
2377: 2829:- This is not a defining category. Users are generally not going to know about amusement park awards and define rides based on them. Listify if appropriate & delete the category. -- 442: 1587:, which is to not create these sorts of cats as the "last rung" on the ladder, then these are clearly such cats, and should be merged up - since no further diffusion can be done below 3268: 2381: 2220:
After thinking about this, I really do not think this will work as a standard category. It would be at best limited to a few 1960s and 1970s novelists. We might have potential for
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Probably yes. "Mage" is a rendering in English of Latin "Magus" and Greek "Magos" for historic practitioners of magic. The terms themselves were actually based on the Iranian term
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Yes, and it's pretty much right now just hashing over old conversations, and other folks are representing my views. I can weigh in, too, but haven't felt the need to do so yet. --
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We categorize by ethnicity. African-American is an ethnicity. People are of African-American descent. "African descent" really sounds like categorization by race, which
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as a no consensus, and an editor followed it up by creating a gender-based subcategory. I don't think that makes sense here, as "sorcerer" is not a male-only term (see
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Unneeded category. The only articles that were ever in this category were a mall and a university. Not what most would expect in a category on "visitor attractions"
476:. I'd rather merge sorcerers, wizard and warlocks (yes, all the separate categories), and for sorceresses merge it with witches (as in "sorceresses and witches"). -- 1040:
Yes, well, I would submit that is mostly because people haven't been focused on keeping that category tree pared down. That's a problem generally in categories
3289: 3239: 3034: 2241:: only one article, just move it now, and delete the cat. this cat doesn't seem to hold together. We should not be hasty about creating cats, Mr. Lambert...-- 2009: 3030: 3293: 2357: 1829:. Rather, "GQ Awards" serve as some recognition of notability they have achieved otherwise. Delete. I don't object if someone wants to listify them on 257:, it was decided we didn't need a split by women + city + writer. This one was overlooked I think. I hope we can speedy this per the previous discussion. 129: 2001: 3199:
any case, these categories "of African descent", if you look at how they are populated today, are mostly populated with sub-cats by nationality (e.g.
2368: 121: 3007: 2353: 1992: 1303: 563:. They are gendered categories with reasonable size, while the sorcerer/sorceress are currently tiny. We don't need categories for every synonym. 21: 2999: 112: 1323: 1283: 776: 2807: 1626:- The "last rung on the ladder" guidance is confusing, as is evidenced elsewhere, because it basically would apply to just about everything. 1403: 1363: 1263: 235: 2990: 1523: 1503: 1343: 2777: 2769: 2039: 1543: 1443: 1423: 510:
What's such a fundamental, universal difference bettwen a wizard and sorcerer? Seriously, I don't know. Apparently sorcerers don't wear
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present they are baiscially disallowed bottom rung seperations. For what it is worth I created most if not all of these categories.
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redundant category. I don't actually care which way the merge goes, but there's no reason to have these as two different cats.
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for deletion; it'd probably get you another mention in Salon.com or whatever, and it would also be SNOW kept. And yes it
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In general we do not categorize by award at all, there is not reason to make this one of the very few exceptions.
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an ethnicity. If you think that people of African descent is a poor choice for a category, you should nominate
3318: 2906: 2674: 2121: 1895: 1763: 1182: 535: 1780: 3301: 3187: 3109: 3049: 2889: 2657: 2412: 2372: 2083: 1878: 1165: 771:) but he did not reply. I think "comics titles" are usually categorised for a publisher, not a character. – 462: 3276: 3255: 3220: 2567: 2246: 2100: 1664: 1655: 1600: 1122: 1078: 1029: 1021: 262: 3338: 3177: 3099: 3039: 2954: 2926: 2722: 2694: 2482: 2454: 2311: 2283: 2169: 2141: 1960: 1932: 1731: 1703: 1230: 1202: 895: 867: 772: 719: 691: 364: 336: 204: 176: 156: 74: 514:, I guess, but besides? I still say divide the fictional magic users by their gender and that's all. -- 3137: 2847: 2615: 2225: 2062: 1908: 1679: 1565: 1003: 843: 495: 277: 3314: 3313:
unnecessary triple intersection: people from Uruguay with American heritage with African ancestry.
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and the rest similarly. The category represents a miniscule intersection for a sub-ethnicity.
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considered too small to be retained, which IMO trumps any race/ethnicity argument. Please read
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Too specific an intersection; only one page in category. That page should be upmerged to
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characteristic. This category also places articles about things that are not people under
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currently contains 104 subcategories (and more sub-subcategories) - hardly an exception.
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I rethought it again, it all (including wizards, warlocks, and what not) should be just
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Is there a difference, subtle or not? If not, merge 'em all. If so, let's hear it.
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natural tendency will be to ghettoize, whether policy permits it or not. OTOH,
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If someone wants to create a list (which takes a lot more effort to create and
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in lower-profile trees like awards, organizations, and so forth. Try reading
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1825:. I think it is pretty obvious that none of these folks are "defined" as 2038:
by award. Award-winners are more appropriately listed on the page of the
1809:. This is a category of various celebrities recognized at some point by 641: 2358:
Category:Post–Cold War surface-to-air missiles of the United Kingdom
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This is clearly overacategorization by award and should be deleted.
1813:. It is not defining to these celebrities, who include folks like 381:
no consensus; it sounds like there may be some support for merging
3271:, which deleted a more 'racially' oriented category of Africans.-- 2099:? Why is there a category for recipients of a non-notable award?-- 767:. I asked the category creator last month about the difference ( 637: 397:, or something similar. This can be pursued in a new nomination. 3154:
Um, being African is, like several other things, both a race
2810:(which includes a list) and the template should be upmerged. 2354:
Category:modern surface-to-air missiles of the United Kingdom
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Category:Modern surface-to-air missiles of the United Kingdom
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Category:Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust Award recipients
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Category:Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust Award recipients
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This category is being used for Post–Cold War SAMs (there's
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is just the titles about Buffy, while the parent category
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Category:Visitor attractions in Craighead County, Arkansas
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Do we really need "fictional" on terms like "mages"? --
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for example *can* exist, because the parent category,
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No further edits should be made to this section. 311:and delete; this is not a notable intersection. -- 821:Category:Comics based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer 755:Category:Comics based on Buffy the Vampire Slayer 244:Category:Writers from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2224:but not really specifically just for novelists. 3201:Category:American people of Djiboutian descent 2761:Category:Golden Ticket Award for Best New Ride 2708:Category:Golden Ticket Award for Best New Ride 2369:a sibling category for Cold War SAMs of the UK 3290:Category:Uruguayan people of American descent 3240:Category:Uruguayan people of American descent 3035:Category:Uruguayan people of American descent 8: 3031:Category:Uruguayan people of African descent 1907:this is overcategorization by award winning. 644:the alchemist is seen as a historical mage. 640:for a certain religious caste. For example, 432:Category:Fictional sorcerers and sorceresses 420:Category:Fictional sorcerers and sorceresses 3294:Category:People of African-American descent 2973:Category:FOOian people of American descent 2901:per nom; OCAT & numerous precedents. 2884:-- another unnecessary awards category. 2669:per nom; OCAT & numerous precedents. 2652:-- another unnecessary awards category. 2116:per nom; OCAT & numerous precedents. 1890:per nom; OCAT & numerous precedents. 3242:- the same for the other countries, per 240:Category:Women writers from Pennsylvania 2258:Empty category and questionable scope. 1304:Category:Australian women screenwriters 1048:and focus on the "defining" aspect. -- 934:Category:James Madison Award Recipients 881:Category:James Madison Award Recipients 276:The by city level is going down to far. 1324:Category:Brazilian women screenwriters 1284:Category:Argentine women screenwriters 2808:Golden Ticket Award for Best New Ride 2034:This is a non-defining award that is 1404:Category:Canadian women screenwriters 1364:Category:Scottish women screenwriters 1264:Category:American women screenwriters 1216:Category:American women screenwriters 7: 2863:as nondefining, overcategorization. 2846:This is overcategorization by award. 2802:- Being an award recipient is not a 2631:as nondefining, overcategorization. 2614:this is overcategorization by award. 2562:- Being an award recipient is not a 1852:as nondefining, overcategorization. 1524:Category:Mexican women screenwriters 1504:Category:Italian women screenwriters 1384:Category:English women screenwriters 1344:Category:British women screenwriters 973:Delete and listify on the award page 2521:Category:Apple Design Award winners 2468:Category:Apple Design Award winners 2209:Category:American Chicano novelists 2155:Category:American Chicano novelists 2040:Los Angeles Museum of the Holocaust 1544:Category:Polish women screenwriters 1444:Category:German women screenwriters 1424:Category:French women screenwriters 842:the stuff we are dealing with here. 18:Knowledge:Categories for discussion 3160:Category:People of African descent 1484:Category:Irish women screenwriters 1464:Category:Greek women screenwriters 28: 2968:The result of the discussion was: 2736:The result of the discussion was: 2496:The result of the discussion was: 2325:The result of the discussion was: 2222:Category:American Chicano writers 2183:The result of the discussion was: 1974:The result of the discussion was: 1745:The result of the discussion was: 1316:Category:Australian screenwriters 1308:Category:Australian women writers 1244:The result of the discussion was: 1091:The list is already available at 909:The result of the discussion was: 733:The result of the discussion was: 447:Sorcerer (Dungeons & Dragons) 378:The result of the discussion was: 218:The result of the discussion was: 88:The result of the discussion was: 2327: 1336:Category:Brazilian screenwriters 1328:Category:Brazilian women writers 1296:Category:Argentine screenwriters 1288:Category:Argentine women writers 2806:characteristic. The article at 2574:. For info: there is a list at 1416:Category:Canadian screenwriters 1408:Category:Canadian women writers 1376:Category:Scottish screenwriters 1368:Category:Scottish women writers 1276:Category:American screenwriters 1268:Category:American women writers 3288:the first item to its parents 1589:Category:Mexican screenwriters 1536:Category:Mexican screenwriters 1528:Category:Mexican women writers 1516:Category:Italian screenwriters 1508:Category:Italian women writers 1396:Category:English screenwriters 1388:Category:English women writers 1356:Category:British screenwriters 1348:Category:British women writers 658:Interesting. Ostanes is in a 557:Category:Fictional sorceresses 451:Category:Fictional sorceresses 428:Category:Fictional sorceresses 391:Category:Fictional sorceresses 1: 1593:Category:American politicians 1556:Category:Polish screenwriters 1548:Category:Polish women writers 1456:Category:German screenwriters 1448:Category:German women writers 1436:Category:French screenwriters 1428:Category:French women writers 30: 3267:relevant recent discussion: 1652:Category:Women screenwriters 1628:Category:Women screenwriters 1552:Category:Women screenwriters 1532:Category:Women screenwriters 1512:Category:Women screenwriters 1496:Category:Irish screenwriters 1492:Category:Women screenwriters 1488:Category:Irish women writers 1476:Category:Greek screenwriters 1472:Category:Women screenwriters 1468:Category:Greek women writers 1452:Category:Women screenwriters 1432:Category:Women screenwriters 1412:Category:Women screenwriters 1392:Category:Women screenwriters 1372:Category:Women screenwriters 1352:Category:Women screenwriters 1332:Category:Women screenwriters 1312:Category:Women screenwriters 1292:Category:Women screenwriters 1272:Category:Women screenwriters 1177:OCAT & many precedents. 817:Category:Buffy comics titles 815:Comment - It looks like the 751:Category:Buffy comics titles 705:Category:Buffy comics titles 549:Category:Fictional sorcerers 455:Category:Fictional sorcerers 416:Category:Fictional sorcerers 383:Category:Fictional sorcerers 350:Category:Fictional sorcerers 2427:Category:Weapons by country 2213:Category:American novelists 1807:overcategorization by award 977:overcategorization by award 3362: 3146:20:01, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 3129:09:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 3116:04:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 3056:04:12, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2856:19:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2839:17:13, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2820:05:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2624:19:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2607:17:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2588:05:10, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2394:05:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2234:17:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2071:19:58, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2052:17:21, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 1843:17:29, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 1583:per nom. If we follow the 1574:17:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 1012:17:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 993:17:33, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 807:19:26, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 786:19:03, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 605:Fictional female magicians 561:Category:Fictional witches 553:Category:Fictional wizards 486:21:56, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 467:20:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 395:Category:Fictional witches 387:Category:Fictional wizards 267:22:37, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 161:23:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC) 2572:Category:People by status 1764:Category:GQ Award winners 1717:Category:GQ Award winners 1591:for example (unlike, say 3334:Please do not modify it. 2982:02:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 2950:Please do not modify it. 2922:Please do not modify it. 2752:20:00, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 2718:Please do not modify it. 2690:Please do not modify it. 2512:23:53, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 2478:Please do not modify it. 2450:Please do not modify it. 2346:03:05, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 2307:Please do not modify it. 2279:Please do not modify it. 2199:00:04, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 2165:Please do not modify it. 2137:Please do not modify it. 1984:02:53, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 1956:Please do not modify it. 1928:Please do not modify it. 1755:02:54, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 1727:Please do not modify it. 1699:Please do not modify it. 1688:15:24, 18 May 2013 (UTC) 1669:16:05, 17 May 2013 (UTC) 1641:15:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC) 1254:02:55, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 1226:Please do not modify it. 1198:Please do not modify it. 925:15:34, 11 May 2013 (UTC) 891:Please do not modify it. 863:Please do not modify it. 852:02:16, 16 May 2013 (UTC) 834:17:48, 15 May 2013 (UTC) 743:02:58, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 715:Please do not modify it. 687:Please do not modify it. 672:15:38, 15 May 2013 (UTC) 403:03:02, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 360:Please do not modify it. 332:Please do not modify it. 228:02:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC) 200:Please do not modify it. 172:Please do not modify it. 104:23:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC) 70:Please do not modify it. 3323:23:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 3306:13:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 3281:03:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 3260:02:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 3225:03:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 3194:00:13, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2911:23:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 2894:13:51, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2877:11:05, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2679:23:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 2662:13:52, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2645:11:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2439:22:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2417:13:58, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2373:Category:Modern weapons 2268:15:10, 9 May 2013 (UTC) 2251:02:07, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 2126:23:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 2109:20:19, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 2088:14:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1917:20:31, 6 May 2013 (UTC) 1900:23:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 1883:14:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1866:11:03, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1619:05:42, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 1605:01:21, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1187:23:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 1170:14:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1145:14:41, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1127:13:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 1109:13:19, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1083:04:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1058:13:21, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 1034:04:09, 1 May 2013 (UTC) 654:15:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC) 632:14:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC) 617:14:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC) 588:18:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 573:18:52, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 540:23:31, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 524:16:55, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 504:04:37, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 321:14:34, 9 May 2013 (UTC) 304:19:05, 3 May 2013 (UTC) 286:04:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 3027:Nominator's rationale: 2797:Nominator's rationale: 2568:Category:Award winners 2557:Nominator's rationale: 2365:Nominator's rationale: 2029:Nominator's rationale: 1800:Nominator's rationale: 1656:Category:Screenwriters 1022:Category:Award winners 970:Nominator's rationale: 762:Nominator's rationale: 603:), with a sub-section 551:should be merged into 439:Nominator's rationale: 251:Nominator's rationale: 149:Nominator's rationale: 3211:. Also PBP, remember 2971:merge to appropriate 2218:Nominator's rationale 1561:Nominator's rationale 1097:WP:Overcategorization 2095:, is the award even 2576:Apple Design Awards 1093:James Madison Award 981:James_Madison_Award 975:. This category is 660:Category:Alchemists 597:Fictional magicians 2036:overcategorization 1020:I beg to differ. 3138:John Pack Lambert 2873: 2848:John Pack Lambert 2641: 2616:John Pack Lambert 2226:John Pack Lambert 2101:RightCowLeftCoast 2063:John Pack Lambert 1909:John Pack Lambert 1862: 1680:John Pack Lambert 1566:John Pack Lambert 1095:. 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Index

Knowledge:Categories for discussion
Log
April 29
May 1
talk page
deletion review
Wizardman
23:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Category:Visitor attractions in Craighead County, Arkansas
edit
talk
history
links
watch
logs
RadioFan
talk
23:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
talk page
deletion review
talk page
deletion review
Good Ol’factory
02:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Category:Women writers from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Category:Women writers from Pennsylvania
Category:Writers from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_March_13#Category:American_women_writers_by_city
Obi-Wan Kenobi
talk

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