Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2013 December 1

2134:. If we merge this and all of the other national ones together, we'll end up with over 100 different hymnwriters in the same category. Splitting them by nationality makes it substantially easier to find someone, and the idea that they're "either not real hymnwriters or not real Americans" is inferred, but not implied. And do Jews and Catholics even write hymns? The Psalms and other biblical texts are used by both, but I'm not sure whether Catholics or non-Orthodox Jews have hymns. I have no opposition to creating hymnwriter categories by faith, as long as we've got enough hymnwriters in the same faith to justify the existence of a category, since unlike most professions, the writing of religious hymns is directly related to the writer's faith. 2190:-- I think hymns are primarily a Christian phenomenon. If Buddhists or Jews use hymns, they are unlikely to be suitable for Christians, so that a separate category would be appropriate. LDS theology is rather different from other kinds of Christianity that a separate category from LDS might be appropriate; similarly Christian Science. I would want to see that there is a significant usage of LDS hymns in non-LDS denominations before I would be happy with this nom. I would not suggest any split between other denominations. 4058:

just subnational and not just national. They also don't necessarily involve the election of the executive. Meanwhile, I'm opposed to any renames here-and-now on the grounds that you propose, because that's really not what the beginning of the discussion began with. I might have a different reaction if you asked for this to be speedy-closed and promptly renominated everything individually. Finally, note that I have no opposition to renaming the Israeli thing, since that could rightfully be

1865:. While it would be a century until Moench's hymn was incorporated into the English edition of the LDS hymnal, his Germaness is complex, and not really worth creating such a specific category for. In general these categories are making too fine a distinction on all sorts of fronts, and leading to lots of very small and thus less than useful categories. Plus, in some cases they have been interpreted as non-diffusing categories, so often these people still are in the parent categories. 1845:

Saint hymns", "Dutch Latter Day Saint hymns", "Scottish Latter Day Saint hymns" etc. To the extent that these are people writing Latter-day Saint hymns, they are writing for a church-wide audience. These categories are except the English one all very small (under 5 articles) and not likely to grow much in the near future. Many of these people also spent the entirety of their adult lives in the United States, and some such as

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with a presidential system includes the election of the president - these articles do not, as they are solely about legislative elections. You may have a point with Latvia (as it is a parliamentary republic) but I would argue there is the potential for confusion with using the term "general" for Latvian elections given that the president is popularly elected.

4351:. As the creator of this category, I accept that in hindsight the two meanings of "general election" makes its usage here confusing for those readers used to the American usage of the term for "mixed elections". I would like to see a better term to clarify the category's intended scope: elections for all or most of the seats in a legislature. 681: 1202:; we use the word "store" much more often than not in category names, and more importantly, the articles that are contained in the head category are almost all "xxx store". Your definition of "store" is not the most common one; and we also park in a driveway and drive on a parkway but that doesn't really matter, does it?-- 4013:. Some of these countries, such as India and Brazil, are federal states; in these countries, these elections may include state/local officials as well as, or instead of, members of the national parliament. Having a parent "Parliamentary elections" sounds like a good idea, but let's make it a separate category tree. 1241:-- This is essentially an ENVAR issue. The British go to shops; Americans to stores. I suppose that retailers operating solely over the Internet are neither shops nor stores. I would suggest that we keep the parent and have national categories that are either shops or stores according to local usage. 4132:

are all general elections to a legislature; in each case, elections to the legislature are not held simultaneously with those to other offices. So the American definition has no applicability here ... and the categories are correctly named. I accept that there are problems of ambiguity, but that is

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This category was created to house parliamentary elections. These are variously referred to as general elections, legislative elections, parliamentary elections and federal elections. However, the first of these (the current name) is ambiguous, as in some countries "general election" refers to mixed

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This category currently violates guidelines on not sepetrating out people by religion, ethnicity, sexuality and gender in ways that totally separate them from the mainstream. Currently all other hymwriters, be they Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims or Buddhists, who are Americans, are grouped in

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Everyone of the articles on non-American people whose text appear in the current LDS edition of the hymnal. By their nature these categories are limited to people who are Latter-day Saints. The American category does have an article or two on people who have written works appearing other places than

1937:"There is not a set of "German Latter Day Saint hymns", "Dutch Latter Day Saint hymns", "Scottish Latter Day Saint hymns" etc." - Actually there are German and Dutch Mormon hymnbooks, but don't let the facts bother you. Not all LDS hymns appear in the hymnal, and some hymns in it aren't LDS either. - 1595:

per nom. RevelationDirect has a really good point that the start of a career is difficult. For example, there are some actors who had their first roles in uncredited parts, does that count as launching a career or not? What about people who were successful as child actors who left acting for a while

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I don't see how the categories can be correctly named when they do not match the articles in them. Two of the above articles cannot be described as general elections in any sense of the term - France and Ukraine both have semi-presidential systems, and by definition, a general election in a country

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I have no idea what you mean by linking to the head article, or that it was moved without discussion (how was i supposed to know this? I dont pay attention to every single edit history of every single article, and there are lots of them. And sneakily? Such bizarre accusations. I gave the example on

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And Unitarians have very different theology than many other Christians, but we merge Unitarian hymnwriters with other hymnwriters. There is at least one Roman Catholic in the American hymnwriters category. The notion that Latter-day Saints are a more different group than any other religion is just

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or a non-religion specific sub-section thereof. For what it is worth, this is the only subcategory of American hymwriters, there are no others. The current set-up implies that Latter-day Saints are a special group in hymnwriting, and either not real hymnwriters or not real Americans. The fact that

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being other meanings of "shop", shop alone is not enough. "Shop talk" is not negotiations on sales of merchandise, but people talking about their workplace more generally. I could for example write "Lois told her husband Clark that they would not engage in shop talk while visiting her father." And

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However, I don't see any common adjective which would work in all cases. National legislatures adopt many different names: Assembly, Parliament, Congress, etc. Using any of those terms is non-neutral and would look often silly (UK General elections categorised as "congressional", French National

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Your responses to me and to MacRusgail make me wonder what precisely you're talking about. Unlike in the UK, legislative elections in federal countries sometimes involve elections for subnational legislators and other kinds of positions, and they're sometimes called "general" because they're not

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These all are the only by religion sub-cats in their respective nationality. That is largely the same set of issues in my nomination on the American category. However some of these categories have other problems, which might also apply to the American one. There is not a set of "German Latter Day

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But the UK meaning has a different meaning on the other side of the pond. So that makes it ambiguous and hence unacceptable as a category name. Stores here are different then shops, which are really a subset. Yes they are related, but they have different meanings. That means ENGVAR is off the

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Not necessarily. Some "general elections" are actually just parliamentary elections. I agree that truly general elections (where parliament and president are elected together) could perhaps have its own tree, but British general elections are parliamentary elections, and shouldn't really be in a

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50/50 actually. Keep in mind most of our cities were only ratified in the last several decades (more than half of the almost 200 in the last 10-15 years only) so there are plenty of available literature/RS that refer to these cities by their plain names (as municipalities). And there is also the

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It is an ENGVAR issue. All my local High Street retailers have shops, including the large supermarkets. As I said, this is a category where the natioanl category should be determined by local usage. In England, my pharmacist colloquially has a chemist's shop. If you told me that she had drug

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My understanding is that the other categories are for specific toy sets developed and marketed in conjunction with each other, whereas these are drawn from across various toy lines and pieces of the fiction at the whim of their creators, thus there is no natural association the way there is for

3168:, a category name requires greater clarity to avoid miscategorisation. The addition of the disambiguator "(city)" respects the current use of "Zamboanga" for the head article, but adds clarity. However, I see that the head article was moved only yesterday from "Zamboanga City", following a 4290:

article, it also points out that a general election in countries with a presidential system includes the election of the president. In the case of three of the categories nominated above (Brazil, France and Ukraine), the countries have a presidential or semi-presidential system.

630:(as creator of this category) I can accept the rename to 'Female Anglican bishops', given the alternative is to write two more articles in short order. ;-) I wrote the third article in this category in order to justify creating category (isnt three enough ??? .. come on, people 1956:

comes to mind). Also, the vast majority of hymns in the German and Dutch LDS hymnals are the same ones that are in the English LDS hymnal. The fact of the matter is that the actual contents of the Dutch category were Dutch-born Americans writing hymns when they actually wrote

3484:, for example, as Tacloban City; and CNN/Reuters/other foreign media preferring to name the Typhoon Haiyan-ravaged city as simply Tacloban. Cities are a fairly recent phenomenon here, and they are growing in number every year with some completely reinventing their names like 4027:

With the exception of Brazil, the articles in the sub-categories that I've requested renaming are only about the legislative elections (and are not called "general" elections - the article titles match my proposed category renames - do you support those being renamed?

2544:, but it's silly to have three different name formats. Let's pick one format and rename the others to match it. I'm partial to "Historical societies in COUNTRY", since that seems to be the most common way to do a by-country split, but I don't really care that much. 2686:

and how to define, I think needs to be expanded here, it seems insufficiently explained as to what criterion makes a historical society 'learned' or not, and how the distinction is to be made from what is available in the articles about the societies.

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but perhaps only to the film series cat. The normal outcome on articles on fictional characters is to merge all the characters into a single list. This leaves the characters category largely empty. One franchise: one category should be the rule.

3446:. Your MOS sets out to reject the policy that wp "prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources". Don't be surprised that editors prefer to follow the Knowledge (XXG) policy at 3492:

according to the whims of their sitting mayors. We can't allow that here, even when their useage has become common already, no? City of so-and-so, city this, city that. I know in common local parlance, we just call them by their plain names.

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this current break-off was recently imposed by an editor who is an administrator tells us that realistically the only way to fix this situation is to upmerge. Anyway, there is real no good reason to have one by nationality sub-category of

3868:, but I will also nominate the following categories for renaming as part of this because the names of the categories do not match the names of the articles in them (the suggested names all match the article titles used for that country): 1110:

Looking at the contents, store seems to be the most common form. And as I stated, shop is ambiguous. In the US, in many cases, it is thought of as a small store. That makes using it problematic. Is there a term without this problem?

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etc) are solely about elections to the respective parliaments. The categories have been misnamed for some unknown reason. Also, the subcategories have been part of the CfD since the very start, and were not added at a later point.

187:: No real objection to recreating later if notable articles are added, but it's difficult to maintain a category whose lead article is a redirect and that article doesn't explain the term nor does the one article in the category. 634:!), but category intersection and wikidata will suffice. (and those pageviews will probably jump to the new cat) Unless there is some objection BHG, do you mind if I go ahead and create the new category myself, and snow close? 400:

Dinobots and the like. Personally I'd be fine with upmerging them all and frankly culling about 90% of the articles since I've yet to see one at AFD that hasn't been completely non-notable but I don't think the CFD would pass.

2643:-- The degree to which they are learned will vary from case to case. I have some doubt as the correctness of the title of the Argentina category, whose contents seem to be about "national institutes" rather than societies. 2851:

per nom - and trout to the creator for having yet again created a duplicate of a gendered category. Please search more carefully - category creation is incredibly cheap and easy, but deleting/merging wastes a week of

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table since it does not work. Also remember that a shop can mean a place where 'things are manufactured or repaired', better know as a workshop. So yet another reason why this name does not work for retail stores!

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Your comment that "Filipinos know ] as the city" is bizarre; I trust that the good people of the Philippines know the difference between an airport and a city. It is also odd to argue that the lack of province

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as well as other by religion sub-categories as needed. Either we should subdivide all American hymnwriters by religion or none of them. The current subdivision out of only members of one religion is totally

1511:. This is probably a generally bad idea. There are no other "launched in" (whatever that means... in what, a rocket?) actor cats that I know of, and it seems like it could quickly get out of hand. -- 1686:. This and the American-only debate, even taken together, do not adequately converge on how to handle the nominated categories, so perhaps a discussion elsewhere is needed to settle the question. - 2173:

per JPL & Obiwan. I'm not sure which category Nyttend refers to as being over 100, but splitting hymn writers by denomination and nationality at the same time is not helpful to navigation.

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we had articles on Taylor and MacNeil, the category would next year meet my bare minimum viable size of 5 articles ... but bishops are not appointed very often, so the category won't grow fast.

3354:, if any entity is to get the undisambiguated title, it should be the entity for which it is most commonly used ... and per your assertion, that is the metropolitan area rather than the city. 2760: 860:. Currently has only two subcategories which have adequate parents. In the long run, the related branches of the tree in this area probably need some pruning and cleanup. If kept, rename to 37: 3241:, only Philippine cities that have the same name as a Philippine province may be titled with "City" attached to it. No province is currently named Zamboanga. Hence naturally, Filipinos know 3865: 42: 3291:

discussion, to move the article to your preferred title. Given the ambiguity between the city, the region, and the former province, I will oppose any move to an undisambiguated title. --

616:. Splitting by nationality is often a good thing, but when only about forty entries are possible and only about twenty entries are extant, there's no point in splitting by nationality. 3274:

When making this nomination, it was wrong of you to neither link to the head article nor disclose the fact that it had just been moved without discussion. I trust that you did not

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Those elections are general in the sense of electing all Assembly members. Since those countries do not have any mixed elections, the American usage has no applicability. --

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You would be entirely right if the articles in the categories in question were indeed general elections. However, they are not - the articles in the categories (e.g.

2223:'s "Star Bright" Christmas carol. Still, This is not called "American Christian hymnwriters", it is not a religiously clear category. The American category contains 2152:

Yes, Roman Catholics write hymns and hymnals in which they keep them. There is also much cross-pollination of hymnary between the various branches of Christianity.

1861:, although born in Germany was at that point in Switzerland editing the mission journal while on leave from having founded the educational institutions that is now 2049: 1804: 1764: 1704: 1130:

per nom. Most contents are of the form "xx stores", so retail stores is a better container. Keep shops as a redirect category, I'm fine with that remaining.--

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At the time, I was unaware that in the USA and some other presidential systems, the term to refers to an election for two or more different types of office.

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appears to be the work of a very small number of editors. I am sure that they worked in good faith, but they don't seem to have paid much attention to the

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sharing the title removes ambiguity, because a) Knowledge (XXG) covers historical topics as well as current issues, b) the title is also used by a region.

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countries with a presidential system, i.e. those with mixed elections. I think you are taking to narrow and prescriptive a view of the head article. --

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However, from a reading of the definitions, it seems that the UK/Irish terminology is just a subset of the American definition. The 3 examples cited by

1900:"last rung rule" - More obscurantism from the darkest corners of the bureaucracy. How many people voted on that? A whopping five wikipedians, I expect.- 21: 3878:(there are some general election articles in this one, but they are ones that include presidential elections, and should be double categorised in both) 3131: 4380:

If you are unhappy with "parliamentary elections", "legislative elections" would appear to be the answer, as it is a generic term for such entities.

4260:, in which it is clearly explained that a general election in some systems is an election for all or most members of a legislature, as opposed to a 3894: 3885: 2088: 536: 540: 3729: 3629: 4085: 3890: 3085: 1033:. Ran into this through one of the subcategories and it was suggested that this probably needs to be discussed for a rename. The problem with 1561:

let's not start a scheme like this... otherwise we end with "novelists who debuted in the 1980s" and it only gets more cluttered from there.--

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which is probably the best choice here even though retail store is a section redirect (just changed from a redirect to the whole article) to

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the fact that their "shop talk" would relate to their working in a newspaper would not prevent me from describing it as "shop talk" at all.

569: 3421:, ALL Philippine cities for that matter. You name it. That's why we have our MOS, so we don't have to go by Media names/official names.-- 2403: 2383: 2344: 563: 3067: 2061: 1808: 2662: 1772: 1712: 4118:

in the Irish/UK sense to refer to an an election for all the members of a legislature (or a set tranche thereof) ... as opposed to a

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qualifier; I'd be willing to go with "retail shops" but "shops" alone is ambiguous, and I'm guessing it's also ambiguous in Britain.

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was the original category (it's two years older than the general election one), but was rather than bring it to CfD, an editor just

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and neither of them has any inclusion criteria and thus no way to distinguish what subcats and articles are to be included here in

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per nominator. Categorising performers by when their career took off in particular field would lead to massive category clutter.

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in Louisville, Kentucky, USA, but most aren't; they're much more like garden clubs than groups of scholars. We should remove

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not justified. William Clayton's "Come, Come Ye Saints" has been included in hymnals of other denominations, and the works of

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etc etc). Parliamentary elections is an unambiguous name, and hence is proposed as a preferable title. It also appears that

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the parent as a container category. However the subcategories should be specific according to the title of the assembly.

3804:. Although there seems general agreement that something should be done, there is no clear direction on what it should be. - 3321:. For me, this is clearly sticking to the Manual for naming our Philippine city articles. Will do the RM alongside Davao.-- 3080: 2615: 2611: 2562: 2541: 2224: 2096: 2084: 2075: 2071: 2053: 1812: 1257:

Except that we use both with shops generally being used for small stores. That takes it out of the realm of WP:ENGVAR.

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prefer "store". Since ENGVAR deprecates switching from one variant of English to another, wouldn't it better to rename to

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Time for me to disagree with that being a parent category. Some historical societies are learned societies, such as the

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When a ship is launched is definable but less so for actors. Does a non-speaking role count, a commercial, a local play?

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The attempt at rename on the article failed. We need disambiguation at least as much in categories as in articles.

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and instead put the latter category onto articles about historical societies that really are learned societies.

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WP:Commonname is not reliable in our case, as the media refer to our cities by their long official names like

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for those interested some of "my" categories which have recently been nominated for Deletion are listed at:

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came to the United States as children. The two Dutch entries both wrote their hymns texts in English. Even

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Given that I'm British, I don't see how I could have an Amerocentric viewpoint. And in reference to the

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who wrote his hymn text in German, used as the tune of "Hark All Ye Nations", the music of the American

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It appears that in total there are more than 40 women around the world who have become bishops in the

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Why would you not put characters from a horror film in a category for horror film characters?

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obvious split between local and foreign media, with local english usually preferring to name

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2870:, who also created several other categories which are currently being discussed at at CFD. -- 2734:

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and notice that it has two primary meanings: retail establishments, and workshops. It needs

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Assembly as "parliamentary" etc). Is there any inclusive terminology which doesn't jar? --

3368:. That's why it is inadvisable to assume that the application of a local guideline such as 653: 4217: 3318: 3254: 2764: 2248: 1938: 1901: 1854: 1480: 1272: 560: 3523: 3373: 3288: 3199: 206:

per nom. It also seems there are Fuzors with transformers, and fuzors with zoids. Oy. --

4381: 4292: 4236: 4157: 4129: 4090: 4029: 3960: 3920: 3341: 3195: 1858: 1199: 1152: 1034: 1016: 4401:"Legislative elections" is indeed better. But wouldn't that include by-elections? -- 3998: 3839:

elections - i.e. combined presidential and parliamentary elections (examples include

3494: 3437: 3422: 3414: 3322: 3258: 3100: 3032: 2688: 1850: 1378: 1339: 1290:

store, I would immediately know that you came from the other side of the Atlantic.

498: 4122:, which is an exceptional process caused by one or more people vacating their seats. 3172:

which allowed the move to happen without discussion; I will now revert that move. --

3156:

I have not formed a view on whether the head article about the city should be named

1081: 4014: 3418: 3410: 3194:(ec)I have reverted the undiscussed move of the head article, which is now back at 2918: 2623: 2545: 2135: 1403: 1050: 884: 617: 652:

that would be great. Please go ahead, then this debate can be speedily closed per

568:

Mote that all the 3 articles currently in this category are already in subcats of

4216:- General elections are different to parliamentary elections, by-elections etc. - 3864:

One of the subcategories (Finnish general elections) is currently the subject of

3130:, but the term is massively ambiguous. The city is geographically located in the 4261: 4119: 3805: 3402: 3278:

to act sneakily, but disclosure would have removed the appearance of sneakiness.

2212: 2032: 1953: 1687: 1615: 1512: 1360: 1164: 997: 760: 3317:

Manila, the city; Manila, the capital region, Manila, the old province in the

2219:

have received some widespread acceptance. The same appears to be the case for

3990:

to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

688:(and I found another five members for the category, but there could be more) 3157: 3127: 1217: 1080:

issue here: "shop" is the common usage in the UK & Ireland, whereas the

3778: