Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2013 February 14

2805:"Property ... destroyed..." to "Buildings and structures ... destroyed or damaged..." I confess that I like these categories, and congratulate their creator for finding an important defining characteristic and creating a category for it. I agree that "damaged" may not be as important a topic for categorization as "destroyed", but I submit that there is no bright-line distinction between "damaged" and "destroyed", and the fine distinction that exists may not be worth worrying about. When a large building is completely gutted by a fire and the interior is later rebuilt at great cost, the building was not totally destroyed, but the fire is still a significant -- and defining -- aspect of the building's history. (Also, buildings severely "damaged" by fire often sit empty for years until someone decides to "destroy" the ruins.) Combine "destroyed or damaged" into a single category and avoid hair-splitting over the definition. -- 1487:. No-one even commented, in the further long discussion at WT:IMOS, on the "Sportspeople from" issue, so it is reasonable to assume that the consensus was well established. My proposal for deletion (or merger, either would be fine) was in response to the closing admin's invitation to implement that consensus. The fact is that people in Ireland, if asked which county they are from, invariably answer with reference to the 32 traditional counties, not the 2001 creations now set to be abolished. (And "North Tipperary", "South Tipperary", "Fingal" etc. did not exist as counties under those names until 2001, so it is particularly inappropriate to classify sportspeople whose careers ended, and who in some cases died, before then as being "from" such places.) 2826:; categorising by method of destruction is useful and has plenty of precedent. However, damaged doesn't have any clear inclusion criteria — you could add it for buildings completely gutted by a fire and the interior is later rebuilt at great cost, or you could add it for a building in which the arson was found and put out by a guy with a small fire extinguisher. We should restrict this category to buildings/structures that are completely destroyed by arson or that are demolished because of damage caused by arson. 2675:), but for an article about the building (or in the case of many of these articles, a group of buildings) these are non-defining characteristics. From the titles of the articles in these cats it looks very unlikely that any/many of these articles are specifically about arson attacks - they are articles about buildings (or groups of buildings), but before the category is deleted someone (probably me) should check each article and if necessary place them in 3036:(per the argument of Nyttend above), but most/all of the articles shouldn't be in them. There may be a grey area (that doesn't apply to the analogy with people) - a school could be destroyed by arson and then (possibly some years later) a school of the same name could be built on the same site and one WP article might cover both instances of the school, but I'm not aware of any such articles. 2912:- 4 of the articles in the category have a lead in the present tense ("Foo School is ...") (e.g. where just one building of the school was destroyed by a fire) and the 5th article is about a building that was destroyed 20 years after the college in it closed. I.e. none of these 5 articles is about a school that was destroyed by arson. The other categories may well be similar. 1136:

administrative counties (five years in the cases you point to). These are sensible reverts to controversial, contra-consensus edits. Moreover, just as it would be nonsense to describe an 1880 birth as occurring in "Tipperary, Republic of Ireland", it is absurd to describe anyone born before 2001 (i.e., anyone notable) as having been born in a county created in that year.

3341: 2461:—this is not what makes these people notable enough for an article. It's currently interesting, but will become boring as more and more people "have their sequence done". Experimental work with sequencing is currently being done in cancer therapy to allow for targeted medications. The researchers are notable, but the patients aren't for this reason alone. 1351:. Some editors have chosen to ignore the basic principle that an article should not usually be in both a category and its parent category, and have flooded the 3 sportspeople categories with individual players. This miscategorisation should be fixed by diffusing the mass of GAA articles which have been flooded into these general categories. 1058:. Some editors have chosen to ignore the basic principle that an article should not usually be in both a category and its parent category, and have flooded the 3 sportspeople categories with individual players. This miscategorisation should be fixed by diffusing the mass of GAA articles which have been flooded into these general categories. 1584:, which was rejected. LL proposed that "Sportspeople from" should allow the creation of categories (two of which he had already created and populated off his own bat, needless to say without discussion) for modern admin counties. Two editors supported, the rest opposed. Did you really miss that part of the discussion? 3166:

After looking at the articles that get put in the "destroyed" categories, I am not convinced most if any of them belong. In some cases it was the "libary" that was destroyed. It is not even clear that this was a seperate building, but even if it was, the school itself should not be in the destroyed

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destroyed by arson") contain few, if any, articles about individual buildings; they are articles about schools. If a school was destroyed by arson then the "death of the subject of the article" argument applies and the article could go in a "Schools destroyed by arson" category, but these categories

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I can not speak for others who participated at the GAA discussion, but I can say that my main objection to Proposal 7 was the attempt to limit inclusion in the proposed categories to being born in the county. There is a clear consensus that where a person is born is not alone notable, and it is even

1430:

An article should not usually be in both a category and its parent category, and there is no point in having all the hurlers from County X in both X hurlers and Sportspeople from X. Sure, if the hurler also has a notable association with County Y, then put them in both X hurlers and Sportspeople from

1610:

The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway) should be defined as "Notable sportspeople who were born in the Irish county of Foo". This structure to be independent of the GAA county structure. So a person can be born in one county

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you will see that the one and only anomaly is the existence of North & South Tipperary categories, created by Laurel Lodged a few months ago, alongside the 32. I don't know of any sports that have leagues or championships organised in alignment with the council borders of North/South Tipperary -

2930:

This is one reason to recast the categories as "Buildings and structures destroyed or damaged by arson". In many cases, the building was destroyed (or for all intents and purposes destroyed), then rebuilt, so the article still describes it in the present tense. The "destroyed or damaged" name would

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herself relating to non-GAA sportspeople. I am utterly bemused: either (a) she wants "Sportspeople from" categories for all the current admin boundaries - Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, Fingal, Tipperary South etc. and the non-county local government units - including the 26 local government districts in

3035:

You can't have it both ways; if the inclusion criteria include a school with just one building (of many) destroyed (as they have recently been changed to) then the cats should be deleted as overcategorization. However, if these cats are for schools that "died" due to arson then the cats may be OK

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even if the counties are abolished, that would not imply we should abolish the categories. The Soviet Union collapsing does not mean we do not have Soviet categires. Since there are clearly people from South Tipperary, merging it with other places will not make it so there never was anyone from

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re "depopulation": You might want to check who put "North Tipperary" into those articles (LL), when (a few months ago), and how long the article had been stable in referring to the county of birth by the traditional county name (Tipperary) rather than by the recently-created, soon-to-be-abolished

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destroyed for now based on the discussion here. If the discussion closes with a keep for the destroyed category, then they can be renominated after someone verifies the contents. If that happens, an upmerge of remaining articles could be better then outright deletion. If someone takes on this

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changes that sought to undo Laurel Lodged's unilateral fiddling and implement the continuing and very long-established consensus in favour of a 32-counties classification. The ludicrous situation that we have now is that BHG is solely responsible for Tipperary standing alone as an anomaly in the

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Is it required that every discussion about Ireland categories turn into a wheelwar? Well, regardless, the discussion was poisoned immediately upon the removal of articles from the categories, so I looked solely at the merits. As far as I can read through the thicket, the counties exist now, and

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I naturally checked the bio articles of notable hurlers from that club and directed them towards the correctly-spelled category. The total population of the category is, last time I looked, three articles. Would you consider supporting this eminently sensible proposal, or can you suggest why we

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Nothing was imposed: the discussion at the GAA talk page re "Sportpeople from" was notified to the Ireland and Northern Ireland talk pages. While there are 30+ Irish sports categories, it would have been pointless to notify all their talk pages because they are all happily categorising their

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True, but there are more sports played in the administrative counties. Imposing only a GAA-discussion on those categories, is rather disrespectful towards everybody involved in soccer, rugby, athletics, swimming, golfing and so on. Unless you have brought the same discussion to the involved

1658:. So this is plainly NOT about the GAA alone; I actually opposed this proposal's inclusion in a discussion on the GAA pages, but was overruled, accepted that, and participated as did many others in the discussion there and the subsequent discussion elsewhere. The consensus that emerged was 2671:- A building may have many things happen to it during its lifetime (cost overrun on construction, damage by earthquake, damage by waterleak, burglary ...) and if such an event is notable enough to have its own article then that article should be in the relevant category (e.g. 1685:

contained 3 separate points, and the rejection of that package cannot be taken as a consensus against each of the individual points. If you read the discussion, you will see that my objection was based on LL's proposal to categorise people by place of birth, contrary to

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and hence should contain only articles about accidents, not articles about ships that have had accidents. This category should be listified and purged - leaving only those articles that are about accidents (e.g. Iowa, Chicago and West Loch) and possibly the list.

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but may play for a different (or multiple) GAA county (e.g. Tony Reddin). Furthermore, the structure to permit the creation of categories for all modern administrative counties (e.g. Fingal, South Dublin and North Tipperary) as well as the "traditional" counties.

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You are obviously unaware of the fact that birth, death and marriage certs, as well as passports do not record the 'county' in question as 'North Tipperary', or 'South Tipperary', but simply as Tipperary or County Tipperary. These jurisdictions are generally

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In that case, only articles on buildings destroyed by fire should be included. If a university for example had one of its buildings destroyed in an arson, an article on that building could go in the category, but the article on the univeristy itself should

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The category inclusion criteria states, for example: "This includes articles on schools in the United States with buildings having been destroyed by arson, whether reconstructed or not". This matches the categories' names. Your statement has no relevance.

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GAA sportspeople are not the only sportspeople from County Tipperary, and many other sports are not organised on a county-wide basis. A GAA-focused discussion on a GAA talk page has no business trying to make a decision about the categorisation of non-GAA

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destroyed. The method something was destroyed is important enough to be categorized by, that it was damaged in some way be something lacks any clear threshold. Anyway "property" is also a very problematic term. I think we should limit to the destroyed

3112:

No, you're wrong. A (unfortunate) university might have one building destroyed by fire, another by bomb, another by earthquake etc. By your logic, a university article could be in many destroyed-by categories. That's not how categories should be used.

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Even if we were just talking about things rather than people, it has to be noted that the 1898 Act repeatedly cited by BHG established that the entirety of Tipperary remained one county for all purposes other than local government administration.

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This category should be purged of ineligible articles (as I mentioned above), but there are at least 4 articles that are eligible (including the USS Princeton article) as being articles about a non-combat explosion and the category fits in

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categories based on new counties, not just for Gaelic games; it was therefore in favour of retaining the long-stable 32-county categories and getting rid of the anomalous Laurel Lodged categories for the two admin counties currently within

2865:- Article says that some buildings were destroyed. However, they don't seem to have included the main building(s), so the impact of this fire on the article subject probably wasn't as dramatic as in the case of the two previous examples. 1982:"Sportspeople from" tree, with Laurel Lodged's unconsulted, unwanted and disruptive innovations reinforced and defended by a very active admin who has repeatedly claimed to oppose them. I really do not understand what is going on here. 2203:

Be careful of using that sort of state documentation in this way; the state can be very slow to update its terminology. Land transfers in Counties Laois & Offaly are still recorded as being in "Queen's County" or "King's County".

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as G6, since this was obviously a mistake; this also would have qualified under C2A, "Typographic and spelling fixes". Emptying a category is appropriate in cases such as spelling mistakes when the correct category already exists.

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per Black Falcon. In effect this means moving some articles to a new "...sunk..." category (which can probably be done before the CFD is closed) and a trivial rename of the existing category from "Noncombat..." to "Non-combat...".

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per the good reasons stated above. Destroyed means it was made unusable. The fact that that the building was later repaired/rebuilt is not relevant here. Buildings in good locations often get fixed after any kind of disaster.

1191:), but no legislation has yet been published, let alone enacted. We can deal with abolition if and when it happens, but in the meantime these counties continue to exist, and we have a category structure for both of them: see 2114:

Nothing at the GAA discussion implied it would be applied to players of football, rugby, swimmers let alone to players of baseball, basketball and American football who may have been originally from specific places in

2014:

Brocach, you are making very hard going for yourself of a fairly simple issue. So I'll try again to summarise my position here. The reason I declined to do so on my talk page was to simply to centralise discussion per

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No worries! I'll close this as moot then as it processes there. In the future, if you full-nominate a speedy-eligible cat, it can be left open here and an admin will close it at the speedy time if not objected to.

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No that is a reason to purge the category. Damanged is an impossibly low standard. Buildings that currently exist should not be in the destroyed category, anymore than people who are currently alive should be in

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Trouble is, I'm finding buildings in the "destroyed" categories that weren't actually completely destroyed, but arguably deserve to be in a "destroyed by arson" category. Examples (several from my watchlist):

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per Black Falcon. We should use cats only to categorize things that fit the wording of the category. It is better to have small correctly named categories than large categories that group together unlike

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more clear that if someone was born in California but raised in South Tipperary they would be from South Tipperary. That was my objection, it had nothing to do with views on using administrative counties.

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As long as those counties exist, they are worth to be mentioned in a category. Don't anticipate on what might happen, we are not a Crystal Bol (and I have seen more screaming U-turns of this government)

372:, when there was no consensus. However, now that its objective hads been achieved, we don't need to retain what was described by the closer of the 2012 discussion as "a very suspect category concept". 1400:

There is a crucial distinction between deletion and merger. If a category is merged, all affected articles end up into the categories to which they are being merged. That does not happen with deletion.

1317:(GAA) sportspeople are the only sportspeople from these areas, which is patently false. Even if GAA players are not to be placed in these categories, they are still appropriate for other sportspeople. 1035:(GAA) sportspeople are the only sportspeople from these areas, which is patently false. Even if GAA players are not to be placed in these categories, they are still appropriate for other sportspeople. 3549:

The first article I checked mentioned that the explosion was thought to be the result of sabatoge. I think the whole "non-combat" theory is too hard to define and we should just scap the category.

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You say that "the consensous was acheived on WikiProject GAA but affects all Irish sports articles". Not true; as notes in my reply below to Brocach, the relevant sections of the discussion are

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I am being careful. Planning applications also commonly use the old barony boundaries, but we are not talking about land, we are talking about people and where they identify as coming from.

1476: 1199:. If editors want to nominate those two categories for merger, then feel go ahead and nominate the lot; but ripping out part of that structure makes no sense. There is no logic in deleting 1848:. Most of the "delete" !votes have come from editors focusing on how to do something which shouldn't be done anyway, and the problem will disappear when this overcategorisation is removed. 2479: 1558:

In both cases the scope is explicitly tied to the GAA, and it is clear enough to leave no room for confusion. It is sad to see an editor trying to misrepresent a consensus in this way. --

2053: 2710:. Can the three destroyed by arson categories be split out to a separate discussion? I have a feeling that the comments on those could be different then the rest of those nominated. 369: 2909: 2621: 3630: 3428: 3266: 461:

allowing category names like this created a horrible precedent, and was most likely the cause of some of our most objectionable and debated user categories over the last year.

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participated), including the overwhelming rejection of a proposal that modern administrative counties should be used for categorising "Sportspeople from", was notified to

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If a person plays for a GAA club in Tipp it does not necessarily mean they are from(i.e born and raised in that county)in that county so x hurlers and Sportspeople from X

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These are 'places' in the sense that they are jurisdictions with corresponding areas, but they are not 'places' in the sense that people commonly refer to as coming from.

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If a person plays for a GAA club in Tipp it does not necessarily mean they are from(i.e born and raised in that county)in that county so x hurlers and Sportspeople from X

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no longer exist, since they are no longer administrative counties. That's a long-standing view of LL@s, and a year or two I spent a lot of time undoing LL@s emptying of

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Brocach, before you suggest that I missed proposal 7, you should have noted that I was one of those who rejected it and was also commented at length on it. The rejected

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the North - or (b) she thinks we should stick with the 32 traditional counties which are unchallenged in 31 cases, or (c) for some unexplained reason, she agrees with

1804:: if Finnegas wishes to withdraw from the discussion, so be it, but the proposal was a valid one and I believe that the issues are clear-cut and can be settled here. 2908:- If the subject of an article (e.g. a building) was destroyed by arson then that may be a reasonable characteristic to categorise it by. However, I've just checked 2049: 1818:

The issues are far from clearcut. The major issue prompting the demand for deletion of these category is the direct inclusion in them of GAA players, even though

1484: 2688: 2871:- Main building was gutted (and later totally rebuilt), but not completely destroyed. Parish house was destroyed, but the article subject is the main building. 1426:

People are sometimes categorized by notable residence, in the form People from Foo (not "Natives of Foo"), regardless of ethnicity, heritage, or nationality

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The current South Tipperary cat has directly in it three rugby players and a jockey. I see no reason to not categorize them as being from South Tipperary.

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Oh, I'm mollified. Sadly, I'm no longer prolific, just can't seem to find the heart, but I am looking after the pages I wrote; that's a full time job too.

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The GAA organises itself on the basis of the 32 traditional counties, so GAA categories should reflect that structure. So it would be pointless to have a

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rather than waiting the outcome of a consensus-forming discussion. I reverted that depopulation, but now I see that the nominator depopulated them again:

478:: It was very flattering; and I had no idea that BrownHairedGirl was a member of this category - that's even more flattering. In fact, I'm quite touched. 2883:- A famous fire; it didn't totally destroy the building, which was restored/rebuilt decades later. The fire definitely is a major part of its history. -- 2030: 1340: 1336: 1200: 1047: 1043: 967: 963: 21: 307: 2038: 298: 3457: 943: 3626: 3570: 3503: 3478: 3467:

The current title of this category isn't very clear, as it implies that it is a category for articles on the accidents themselves; while there

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The names of the destroyed categories in question are 'destroyed school buildings' not 'destroyed schools' so your statement has no relevance.

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in favour of changing the long-established WP convention. As to whether the proposal "refers to the GAA alone", it explicitly refers to

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Articles on people who have played on inter-county GAA teams should be categorised according to the county for which the player played

805: 747: 2355: 1347:). All GAA players are categorised by the club for which they play, and all those by-club categories should themselves be subcats of 1054:). All GAA players are categorised by the club for which they play, and all those by-club categories should themselves be subcats of 529:

Oh BHG, you disappoint me so - how could you have been so cruel. I was fondly imagining you weeping for my return. My day is ruined.

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task, emptying of categories leading to their deletion when correctly done should not be viewed as an out of process deletion.

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Well, I wasn't pining for you, but the welcome back is genuine. It's good to see a prolific content creator back in action. --

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that Tipperary is a "special case" and needs to be split. There is no clue either in what she says, or in what she does; she

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It looks as if someone has made sure that any "damaged" buildings which were actually destroyed are now in both categories.

1650:, so not a GAA-only proposal but one that takes in 30+ non-GAA sports sub-categories. The rejected proposal went on to note 1540:

Brocach, nothing was imposed at that discussion, but you are now misrepresenting that discussion to try to impose something.

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without specifying which proposal they were referring to, and sad to see one who is now both misrepresenting the proposal

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even the GAA's North Tipperary competitions take in clubs outside the local government area, and exclude some within it.

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Why do you refer only to the GAA as reason when there are far more sports played by people from north & south-Tipp?

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If for whatever reason, these categories were inappropriate, then they should not be deleted; they should upmerged to

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If for whatever reason, these categories were inappropriate, then they should not be deleted; they should upmerged to

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I would have preferred not to have to say this here. Having been slapped down for attempting to engage directly on

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In any of the above cases, the county in question should be the GAA county, not the "current administrative county"

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The scope of the category structure "Sportspeople from County Foo" (e.g. Category:Sportspeople from County Galway)

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Category names should provide a clear guide as to what goes in the category; the current title is confusing. —

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is an example of one that was not destroyed, and will be de-categorised; this seems a reasonable outcome. –

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are being used on articles where the fire didn't destroy the _school_ - some don't even mention any fire (

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This is not a trait of a person that is worth categorizing. It is not defining for the people involved.

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Laurel Lodged of being obtuse in promoting classification by current local government boundaries, then

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sportspeople by county according to the traditional 32 counties: if you check out the subcategories of

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Accept flawed rationale.Will now mention on Wikiproject Ireland and see can conseous be gained there.

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That is not how the category structure works or has ever worked. Statement has no relevance here.

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I was also unaware that I was a member of this category, but anyway it's nice to see you back. --

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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this category contains a mis-spelling of a placename (Templetuohy) and is empty, with the new

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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and return the out-of-process removed articles. These are clear places that people are from.

1099:. This also appears to have been accompanied by removal from the articles of all mentions of 1063:

Also, please note that both the nominated categories have been depopulated out-of-process. --

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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to remove articles about ships that were merely damaged but not sunk by explosions (such as

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referred to as places one comes from, except on Knowledge (XXG), for some peculiar reason.

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Also, please note that both the nominated categories have been depopulated out-of-process

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The consensous was acheived on WikiProject GAA but affects all Irish sports articles.

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I see, sorry, didn't realize that. Will go through that process then. Thank you. --

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was created just this afternoon by another well-meaning editor. The correctly named

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Do you have any better argument than your perennial "But Laurel Lodged did that"?

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organises as one unit across North&South Tipp. There was a clear consensus at

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Other sports do not organise themselves on the same basis, so it is fine to have

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for further discussion. The discussion while under way at WT:GAA was notified to

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But these categories (e.g. named "Category:School buildings in <country: -->

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make it less astonishing to find an existing building in these categories. --

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