Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2013 January 14

3488:, which includes the definition of how "Asian" includes people "having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent, including, for example, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Pakistan, the Philippine Islands, Thailand, and Vietnam." This definition demonstrates that there is a logical parent that should be subcategorized wherever possible, and does support the argument that Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews should be excluded. Whether you call it race or ethnicity, the real world -- as best exemplified by the U.S. Census Bureau -- does categorize people in this manner and that is what is relevant here, and this trumps all of the talk regarding what we should or shouldn't do or of what does or doesn't exist. 3354:, we don't categorize by race, so this category has morphed into one for any and all peoples whose ancestry is from a locale in the continent of Asia, itself a political (not geographic) division of the Eurasian continent. Thus, this includes Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews. I know im probably stirring up a huge discussion, but I just dont think that categorizing people by gigantic land masses with no ethnic cohesion makes good sense. its like saying "people from the northern hemisphere", or "people from islands". I also recognize that my rationale would change a whole lot of categories. I will politely bow to consensus if its a snow keep, and i wont belabor the point endlessly. anyone else agree with me? 2250:, should be in the parent category as he is not a track and field athlete. I see repeated claims that a category name which fails to correctly describe its contents by en.wp's own naming standards and article descriptions is 'more neutral' or 'less ambiguous' without any attempt to address the issues with their own proposed name which is worse. As far as any evidence for what engvar should be preferred here, Georgia competes in many international competitions which call the sport Athletics, and is a member of the 3262:, and both sides made some good arguments which in the end were inconclusive. There was no agreement on whether this category should be seen a container category, nor on whether "Asian American" is an ethnic or racial concept, or indeed on where to draw a line between ethnicity and race. On those grounds, the closure would have been "no consensus", but there was one crucial point which makes this a "keep": that this is one of ten similar sub-categories of 688:. Everything else in that category is articles on specific names, not on the people who held this. In some ways this dehumanizes the Native American people here, by reducing in some sense the articles on them to being just about their names. The articles are not on the names. Actually other people have argumed this is an odd grouping. We do not categorize people by their names, what next 3680:

right that "asian" is not a race (the racial label which closely corresponds is "mongoloid" of course), but asian is often perceived as a racial type, so i want to be sure we are sensitive to that aspect of the word. and i wont nominate any more, these two nominations are enough to establish whether we keep or modify the whole tree.

3679:

Hmains makes some very good points, and shows (below) how the category tree is currently using continents. I am not withdrawing my nominations, though. Even if kept, this may spur some type of commentary at the various categories to make sure its understood as geographical not racial. Hmains, you are

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I am not sure where it is, but somewhere in the wikipedia guidelines there is something that states "IPs are people to". If you want to get all huffy about "using your name", I could point out that my account is under my leagl full name, which is more than you can say for your, unless your last name

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There are indeed categories for names, and it seems this is one of them. It's a case of names being rather important to the linguistic study, although not as extreme as in say, Hurrian (where names are a vast proportion of what is known); it seems to me we could have eventually a category for people

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ethnicity. All of your comments appear to be made with the assumption that there are agreed-upon definitions of the terms "race" and "ethnicity", which there are not. That's the central problem with stating "we don't categorize by race"—all it does is lead to the question—"what is race"—and there is

4012:

Hmains makes some very good points, and shows how the category tree is currently using continents. I am not withdrawing my nominations, though. Even if kept, this may spur some type of commentary at the various categories to make sure its understood as geographical not racial. Hmains, you are right

3718:: we don't categorize by race. We also don't categorize by continent. And we also don't categorize by membership in categories that the US census bureau consider to be relevant. We have categories of "Americans of X-country/ethnicity descent" and that is fine as long as it is sourced in the article. 2373:

That category is an ENGVAR violation. It was created by Kasper2006 in contravention of a previous CFD result. There should not no subcategory "track and field athletes", it should be the main category, as "athletes" should never exist on its own in places where "track and field" is the term of use.

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Among other things it mixed together articles on real people and articles on mythical beings. I removed all the articles on mythical beings, since it does not make sense to put them in a category full of articles on real people. However, the category is still classifying the articles on people as

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or whatever is suitable. But worth keeping, I think. Barring that, a move to Algonquian people is a little problematic, as the same folks could be from many different tribal nations within the broad Algonquian linguistic/cultural group, yet someone could go around and remove categories based on a

3583:

what they track "racial" groups or "race", but what they are tracking is more akin to ethnicity. They are not tracking people by skin colour or vague conceptions of how flat their noses are or how broad their hips are. They are tracking people by where their ancestors originated—that is ethnicity.

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But we have done and should do for Algonquian names, which should be an exception, because this is an important component of the study of Algonquian linguistics, which is concerned with preserving whatever information hasn't already been eradicated. This should be a linguistic category of personal

3631:

It is clearly not ethnicity. If someone was adopted at birth but born to Korean parents but raised in a Euro-American household and Euro-American culture, they would still be encoraged to mark themselves as Asian on the census. In 1970 they would have been marked as Asian, no ability otherwise,

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That is nonsense, there is nothing that would make "Asian Americans" an ethnic group or more "akin to ethnicity". Ethnicity is not where one's ancestors originated it is about which cultural groups you identify as belonging to. And no the census bureau does not track people's genealogies they ask

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some of the entries show history prior to the evacuation to Taiwan, this would rescope the categories. Further some of them weren't based in what is now the Taiwan Area either, they were on the Mainland. Subcatgorization to "Taiwan" would be fine. Those that existed prior to the evacuation would

1956:

Because by itself, it fails to properly distinguish greatest hits albums by single artists, and compilation albums which are actually compilation albums in the traditional definition of the word compilation (i.e. albums on which each track is by a different artist entirely.) That is, without the

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It's not nonsense—it just so happens that almost all people's identification with a particular culture and their ancestral genealogy line up. Find me a person who calls themself an Asian American but who does not have an ancestor from an Asian country. The "race" we don't categorize by is skin

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It is a categorization by continental ancestry which in the US happens to be called race or by a recent euphemism "ethnicity". What matters is that this group has nothing in common except that the US census bureau gave them a series of options on their form and they happened to choose the same

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I don't see anything wrong with "People with Algonquian names". Then we could keep the category population as is and combine it with Algonquian place names into a supercat for Algonquian proper names (with two divisions, places and people.) This is an important subset of Algonquian languages.

3442:. Articles should as far as possible be categorised into more specific categories. I have to say that I am not happy with Jewish categories in this one. While they are ultimately of west Asian origin, most have in fact lived as a diaspora in Europe and north Africa for neartly 2000 years. 2958:

per nom. We decided a year or more ago that WP would call this polity "Taiwan". This may be being successfully resisted for categories relating to a out-islands, but in principle all categories relating wholly or aminly to the main island should be so renamed. Any for the pre-1950 mainland

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at Brigham Young University is what comes to mind the fastest, and the Marriott Library at the University of Utah, and the Bruce Halle Library at Eastern Michigan University. However normally acknowledging donors in libary names is meant to not be a direct purchase of naming rights, so such

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This has nothing do with with 'race' as is shown by any reading of the category content. This is about American people from Asian countries/ethnic groups. Stop the race fixiation? Stopping these nominations will solve that. By the way, there is not now and has never been an 'Asian race'

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might be appropriate. This is probably more specific and might involve purging out non-sporting facilities. Names for buildings tend to be more of a memorial, possibly resulting from a large single donation. This is slightly different from sporting facilities, whose naming is a branch of

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1064:

Both of the people currently in this category are British. Since they are both in other British categories this is not a disputable situation. We do not do citizens of x and y country categories. We also avoid the use of the word "citizen" is most categories, except for ones specifically

2411:

Do you even understand Canadian English? You will note I am in Canada, and as such can be assumed to understand Canadian English. Yet you think British English should rule the world? You force British English onto Canadian categories and think that such a position will be accepted by

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I do not know if that was a warning or not, he just explained me that I could not put in a category directly in SD (things that happened about two months ago), and I do not think since then has never worked in that field. The fact remains that I have a name and and you an IP. ;-)

3538:

It depends on what you mean by "race". If you mean "race" in the way the US Census Bureau uses the term—which is really more akin to ethnicity—then yes, we do categorize by race. If by "race" you mean general skin colour and physical appearance, then that is another story.

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The US Census tracks race, not ethnic groups, and we do not classify by race. Beyond that, if you look at the contents you will see it is not being used as the US census does. The US census does not classify people from Afghanistan, Iran or anywhere further west as

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colour, flatness of nose—that type of thing. Phenotype, in other words. We don't categorize by phenotype, but we have a vast system of categorization by ethnicity, which this is a part of. And yes, part of that is classification by where one's ancestors are from.

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2330:

My point is that it's a perfectly valid subcategory which does NOT have equivalent scope as so many editors keep arguing. Whether the parent benefits from such a split is another issue, which I am somewhat neutral on. Looking closer, most of the larger members of

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Again, you assume that everyone agrees on a definition of "race". They don't. Saying "we don't categorize by race" is close to meaningless unless you define what "race" means, which there is no agreement upon. That's why I think it's a poor argument to make.

3169:. We have a long tradition of categorising the holders of senior posts and have thousands of such categories. Since the post was created in 1917, the category could certainly contain quite a number of articles. The fact it doesn't as yet is irrelevant. -- 613:

I do not think people are getting why this is a problematic category. It is categorization by shared name trait, with no reference to the person. I am not sure the Pochahontas/Rebecca Rolfe problem illustrated why this is a bad category. Someone like

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where one can easily see that categorization is routinely done by grouping countries together by continent, which is what this Asian category is about. Why would anyone want to target Asian origin people for special treatment, i.e., deletion?

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republic should be in a separate category for that. A lot of effort has been put into splitting pre-1949 mainland and post-1945 Taiwan categories. Difffuse categories covering both (save at a high "container" level should not be allowed.

4385:. The proper noun 'World Champion(s) of Professional Football' doesn't exist (at least notably). What is intended here is a category listing winning players of the AFL-NFL World Championship Game, the name of the precursor of today's 1650:

enough. While I support the preference for "writer," the phrase "unknown writer" is commonly used outside of Knowledge to connote new or obscure writers (relatively unknown). This ambiguity is avoided if we maintain the name as is.

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It sounds like what you should do is create a list. As Carlos Suarez stated we categoriez articles, not titles. This categorizes titles, and is just a bad plan. A list would allow lots of other possibilities for providing more

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and lots more. This is an unneeded category. Renaming would improperly group these people. There needs to be attention given to making sure all these people are in such categories, but this would not work as a category even if

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per Andrewaskew. I find the existing name far clearer in meaning. "Writership" is not a word I don't think, so this may be an exception to preferring "writer" over "author" since "authorship" is a great word to use in context.

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Rename wouldn't work, because 1. there are Algonquian people who do not have Algonquian names. 2. Algonquin (at least as used in that catyegory) is a language family not an ethnicity, so there are no people who selfidentify as

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remain in the current categorization, and anything in Mainland China that existed prior to the Communist victory would get an additional category "XYZ in the Republic of China (1911-1950)" which would also be a subcategory --

557:-- such a category should be about names, not people with names from a particular language. My guess is that there are few people with Algonquian language names, who are not of Algonquian ehtnicity. Accordingly merge with 367:

is a redirect to an article on the Akan people. This is an attempt to re-imagine the geopgraphy of West Africa. Until The Akanland movement succeeds in unifying/destroying Ivory Coast and Ghana, we should not have this

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since people were not even allowed to self-identify their race until 1980. Even now, the census guidleines would clearly encorage marking as Asian, when in fact they are clearly from an ethnic stand-point Euro-American.

2134:. Since Georgia is not an English speaking country, Kasper2006's claims about what they are called in Georgia are not accurate or relevant. He is attempting to apply ENGVAR rules in a country that does not use English. 2396:

Canada, Quebec, Trois-Rivières your first edit was on 4 January 2013. I do not understand how you can say these things. I rather suspect that you are a "duplicate" of another user who already commented on these pages.

124:

Category:Streets in Hudson County should be moved to Streets in Hudson County, New Jersey to be consistent with other categories (Category:Streets in Passaic County, New Jersey, etc.) and to include the state name.

4013:

that "asian" is not a race (the racial label which closely corresponds is "mongoloid" of course), but asian is often perceived as a racial type, so i want to be sure we are sensitive to that aspect of the word.

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advertising. If the facility changes its name through acquiring a new sponsor, the article will probably get renamed, but there is no reason why the resulting redirect should not continue to be categorised.

3351: 3274:, etc). Since all the arguments which would support deletion of this Asian grouping can also be applied to the 9 other similar categories, there is therefore no valid reason to delete only the Asian category. 4030:. My understanding (ahem, such as it is) is that ethnic classifications of the actors are particularly significant in the porn industry and their clientele, and this is essentially an ethnicity category. 3861: 3166: 719:

The category is obviously well-populated and should not be deleted; however, focusing on the people, rather than the names, is in keeping with how most other cultural groups/tribes are sub-categorized.

2339:). That approach would for Georgia involve replacing the nominated category with 4 or 5 single person categories, to go with the existing 3 single person subcategories, so is probably premature. -- 500:. It is always helpful to look for such categories before stating that they don't exist, as we then find out what is already working well (or not so well) in nearby parts of related hierarchies. – 3852: 2218: 2151: 2131: 2154:

per JPL. The proposed category is wrong, since it is highly ambiguous. The category "Track and field athletes from Georgia (country)" works fine, the JPL alternative is dialect neutral. --

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The proposed name is a bit contrived, and as others have said, isn't utterly unambiguous. The present name is quite clear and shouldn't be overthrown in the name of relentless consistency.

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categorization "parent/child category" guideline. The only real reason we don't have a "German surnames" cat is because it probably would number in the tens of thousands of articles.

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Its like having a category of "Smith" or "Italian surnames" or "names ending with B". At the very least the category should be renamed to "People with names from Algonquian languages".

3821:. The discussion seems to hinge whether this a category by race, by ethnicity, or a grouping by continent. There is no agreement about what the category is, or what to do about it. -- 3037: 1782: 869:

No, I don't think it is a "bad plan", since it hasn't caused any problems for anyone whatsoever until only now you started complaining about having a category for "Algonquian names".

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the whole Akan mess should go, the Akan-pusher deleted country-tags/categories/wikiprojects and replaced it with the Akan-stub/categories/project tags. This has been going on since

4390: 3373:. Isn't the proposed target a category for subcategories and not for articles? It appears that it would be a misclassification to add these articles directly to that category. 781:

and putting all speakers of Hebreew, Aramaic, Amheric and Arabic into one category. It would be classifying people by language group of their ethnicity, not by actual ethnicity.

4501:

This is essentially an awards category, which we avoid. We do not need to categorize players for having been part of a competition winning team. This is just not a good idea.

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I doubt anyone else sees it that way. Look at the over 100 articles in the category. We need to keep the category, and what is wrong with the category name for bio articles?

622:(which from a cultural standpoint could be said of Rebecca Rolfe, which is why it is a bad example) but because the name his article is under is the Anglicization of his name. 1052: 1466: 3752:

I think users have been addressing issues involving the current definition. But just because that is the assigned definition does not mean that it cannot be changed.

1921: 1884: 1865: 1698:- Using writers instead of authors is not equivalent to getting rid of 'authorship' which is the correct word and has no commonly used writer-derived equivalent. -- 187: 957:

and delete if there is nothing left when non-linguistic articles are discounted. A category about Algonquian names would not be a bad thing, but this isn't one. --

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we categorize articles, not titles. As far as I can tell, these are biographical articles. We don't classify biographies by the etymologies of the person's name.

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Note: For the record, although some people stated below that certain categories do not exist, there are categories with slightly different names and purposes:

4667:. This is also a characteristic that can and does change reasonably frequently, which probably makes it a type of "current" category, which we try to avoid. 3892: 2709: 4713:

This is characterization by shared name, something we avoid. Beyond this there are lots of university buildings that may or may not qualify for this. The

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holds the naming rights to every building and structure, regardless of whether those rights have been sold or not. So all structures "have" naming rights.

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It should only exist alone in countries where "athlete" is the English term of use. Kaspar2006 has been trying to enforce British English on Knowledge. --

1056: 344: 4449:-- This ought to mean winners of the Soccer World Cup, except in a USA context. I have no view on the precise target, but the present name will not do. 3915: 1373: 1361: 3694:

Thanks for reading the comments here, something that is mostly lacking in various other comments made. Also lacking is looking at the parent category

3735: 3307: 3186:"Government Actuary" is an office holder, we frequeently have successive holders of an office in a category. It is properly a subcat of the target. 1235: 4043:

If something is significatn, it is not the ethnicity, but the race of the people involved. Thus we are classifying by race, which we explicitly ban.

4389:. (I think that acronyms should be left where they form just part of the name, but technically to abide by WP category naming practice it should be 2243: 2101: 1892: 1861: 1819: 1083: 1179: 798:: it appears that the point of the category might be a linquistic issue, as there are multiple Algonquian languages. I'd propose something like 21: 3953:. There sure are quite a few of these trivial triple intersections. By all means have Asian actors, but that is not what this category is about. 2705: 4164: 1242:

are not album covers, though the first one is eligible to be transferred to Commons (the other three are not). If merged, move these 4 files to

4663:. This seems to me to be categorizing things by a feature of their names rather than by something inherently defining in the thing itself. See 4531: 4279: 3258:. In terms of a headcount, the debate was finely-balanced between those who support keeping the category and those who want to upmerge it. But 505: 474: 2273: 2097: 840:

here and consider a category with the current population as a useful category, even if it it were retitled to "People with Algonquian names".

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is not on that name, it is on the person who was so named. It should keep the same categorization if we had it under her later name

4470:. We don't categorize American football players for having won the championship, so there is no need to do so for Super Bowls I–IV. 2291: 2279: 2186:

That's your opinion, and very handy for you, since it's a lodged opinion against your proposal. Accusations of sockpuppetry are not

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In my opinion the votes of the IP should not count. It is easy to log out and vote as many times as you want with a dynamic IP. --

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Lots of articles and categories about a non-existent "Akanland" were created by this now-banned user - this should be cleaned up

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as a courtesy, because the creator of this category appears not to have been notified until now. I have just left a note on the

1388:(created 2009) which seems an unnecessary intermediate category. Upmerging would result in a simplified structure, like that of 4638: 2936: 2415:

You were warned by Nyttend to stop gaming the system and fooling around with the categories, as you were going to get blocked (

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trivial; everything has a sponsor nowadays from buildings to sporting events to the actual leagues themselves in some places.

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for anyone who would care to read facts about our category structure instead of just imagining things here for CfD purposes,

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We're not categorizing by continent, we're categorizing by ethnicity. Above and beyond the fact that we have an article for

4194: 3895:. i believe policy is we can categorize people by ethnicity or national origin, but NOT by race, which is what "asian" is. 1411: 1385: 1377: 1365: 1347: 884:

if they were articles on names, which they are not. They are on the people, not the names. Reidrects from other names of

2976:- Why have these persisted so long? Nothing new here to discuss. Rename all Taiwan-related pages on this discussion page. 2562:

I don't see anything here that isn't in the current boundaries of Taiwan, and so I'm not sure why it's an RoC category.--

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per nom. We will have to remove or reclassify the articles elsewhere, but we need to stop this classification by race.

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within countries where usage of that term is established among native English speakers. See the rationale explained at

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is a specific post (hence the capitalisation) - the chief actuary of the British Government with a rank equivalent to

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confusing. Now you're proposing a categorization scheme based on the location of the record label which issued it? —

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The problem with that is not ethnically these people should not be identified as "Algonquian". They belong in

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The seasons by year for Scottish association football (soccer) follow the usual naming pattern (using in), eg

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So the result is "keep, but without prejudice to a group nomination of this and other similar categories". --

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all the 83 subcategories use “in” eg “Seasons in Fooland football” or “Seasons in Canadian/American soccer”

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would also not show up in this category, not because he became less Native American than fellow Shawnee like

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Unless you recognise that some people equate biological ancestry and ethnicity—in which case, it very much

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will show you the entire and extensive categorizing by continent we collectively have done here at WP.

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of the albums have been double-filed in both categories simultaneously, most haven't been and Justin

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with Superbowl champions. These games are much more commonly referred to as Superbowls I to IV.

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the person who incorrectly duplicate-categorized each and every last one of the ones that are.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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There is no reason the category could not be changed to reflect a better way of categorizing.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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We do not delete categories just because potential sister categories have not yet been formed.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Category:American Football League – National Football League World Championship Game winners

4221: 4000: 3954: 3941: 3743: 3723: 3704: 3613: 3510: 3426: 3413: 3374: 2344: 2259: 2247: 1703: 1686: 1652: 962: 941: 725: 659: 583: 394: 332: 3485: 1384:(created 2005) while the years 1905-06 to 2013-14 (with 5 exceptions) are subcategories of 4714: 4198: 3521: 3170: 2435: 2398: 2303: 2187: 2173: 2112: 1996: 1938: 1843: 1419: 1203: 1091: 940:. This is categorisation "by characteristics of the name rather than the subject itself." 3734:

It would be very helpful to have comments here that pertain to the cateogry in question:

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or, if you must do something, merge per nom. Track and field is a subset of the sport of

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Because in Georgia (European country) is "athletes" not "track and field athletes". --

692:. We categorize people by nationality and ethnicity, not by the origin of their name. 3489: 2994: 2782: 2617: 2191: 1715: 1599: 836:

names for biographies, not ethnic. I again implore editors to consider the Systemic

537: 1246:. I don't see the problem with having both once the album covers are moved, though. 4664: 4190: 3041: 1962: 1904: 1470: 1393: 1053:

Category:British and Canadian citizen of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent

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Category:British and Canadian citizen of Levantine-Greek Orthodox Christian descent

937: 462: 347:. Probably longer, considering that the Commons ban was enacted on 1 September. -- 126: 3608:

people to identify with one of a predetermined set of races one of which is Asian.

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should not be in any categories, because categories are about things, not names.

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is a year. The fact of the matter is that you cannot treat IPs as non-persons.

4735:-- While I am not convinced that we need this category at all, somethign like 4386: 1983: 1925: 1830: 1415: 1190: 1087: 533: 3524:

is clearly about a race, not an ethnicity, and we do not categorize by race.

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tracks Americans by their Asian ethnicity and provides an excellent summary

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