Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2013 September 2

890:, per Philosopher. An active, good-faith user says he would find the category helpful and I take him at his word. No particularly pressing justification for deleting the category has been advanced. It's accepted that not many editors were using the category at the time of its deletion. This does not seem particularly relevant to the question of whether it should be allowed to exist. It's also accepted that neither the WMF nor most other editors would find the category helpful, but what matters is that there are 2796:. This really needs to be fixed, for the reason that Dimadick proposed it. It's promoting a factual error that the creator of the categories also wants fixed. Whether or not all the categories are actually needed is not an urgent matter. Having an error in the encyclopedia of this kind does require immediate correction: as a periodization of Egyptian history, the New Kingdom did not occur in the 2nd century CE. This is easily checked as a factual matter in our own articles, or in a multitude of sources. 3020:- The reason I categorized the Perris Block was that it is an ancient intact undivided actor in Southern California's geology that is little recognized. It has stayed relatively stable while all around it tilted, rose up or sank down. Its surfaces features that are more location identifying rather than active features. There are other blocks on either side of it that are major actors in Southern California's geology also that I was thinking of adding articles about. 2884: 1603: 2696:. We do not need annual (or even decade) categories as most will remain for ever unpopulated. The boundaries of Egypt have varied from time to time, but its core has been an entity. We do not need millennium categories, as 50 or even 60 centuries will not overpopulate a category. "Roman Egypt" is as wrong as "New Kingdom". If we needed anything it would be a subcateogry of 2813:. I can't believe this hasn't been fixed yet. Calling Roman Egypt "the New Kingdom" would immediately strand out as a flagrantly incorrect periodization to anybody even passingly familiar with Ancient Egyptian history. Like, I would have know this was wrong in fifth grade! Although I was kind of a weird fifth grader, I guess. -- 2138:; they should either all be kept, or all merged. It is mischievously opportunistic and disruptive of JPL to try to use a renaming discussion as a chance to remove part of a set, without any reason to differentiate it from other similar categories. Note that JPL has tried this sort of selective deletion before: see 1160:

The point that most of us are making is "what is the point of this category"? It's the same as "Wikipedians with a hedge" or "Wikpedians who use shower gel". You do realise that WMF (et al) can determine which OS and which browser is being used by all of us to view Knowledge (XXG) and as such, any

730:

a trivial and pointless characterisation of editors here. WMF can discover which browsers and which OS's editors are using without this half-baked category, if that's what someone thinks this is useful for. Just out of interest, when this wasn't redlinked, how many editors used it? Right now there

359:

As the category creator, I am open to different forms of this category. I am simply suggesting that we ought to have something which groups sub-categories for various specific phenomena, as grouped by their magnitude, strength, or current status. the other alternatives mentioned above sound great as

1463:

that this was deleted without objection when nominated, so this discussion needs to make a case to overturn that decision. So far I'm not seeing anything close to making a case like that. I'm not considering the case that was presented that these are maintenance categories with the assumption that

1406:

Even if the category expanded massively, it would still be of limited use, because the grouping which the techie editors are seeking is much narrower than "Windows users"; they want "Windows users willing to participate in software testing". Unless the purpose of the category is made clear, many of

1400:. The explanations of a possible use for the category don't really add up. With less than 2 dozen category members, this is no use for the technical purposes outlined, and any developer who wants to test something with users of a particular operating system would be much better posting a request at 3568:

as is, it is implying someone in North Korea and editing Knowledge (XXG), which makes them a likely North Korean intelligence and propaganda agent. If they are not, then this is flagging them for being tracked down by North Korean internal security, to be jailed. The associated template says "from

2168:

Well, Greek practice certainly does not view the MPs as continuing until the next election, especially given the very tumultuous nature of Greek political history. I am really surprised that anyone would suggest we pretend that a parliament sat until 1926, even if it had been legally dissolved and

1067:

Well, this should be easy enough then. Imagine you're writing a third party application for use with Knowledge (XXG) and you need to test it. Could you please tell me what browser and operating system is being employed by User:S Marshall? If you can answer accurately then I will certainly grant

609:

that exist and potential new projects that are trying to find the best way to encourage new user participation, as it helps them see what is available for users and what demographics could be improved. They are invaluable to multiple WikiProjects and needed for software development to empower the

3820:

as is, it is implying someone in Pyongyang and editing Knowledge (XXG), which makes them a likely North Korean intelligence and propaganda agent. If they are not, then this is flagging them for being tracked down by North Korean internal security, to be jailed. The associated template says "from

1210:

I have of course read Technical13's argument, and I'm afraid it's a very poor argument. Third-party developers would be very foolish to place any weight on the category. If they don't have access to a technical log, then the only solution is to ask the simple question I just asked you above, or

3042:

characteristic. Articles about geology are fine, but I don't think we want to extend categorization to have by-geology categories for articles about places where (for non-geologists) the geology isn't that important (when compared with things like which state the place is in and whether it's a

2990:

Its not a matter of perf-by-perf - it's about consistency of categorization. Most/all articles about geographical features specify what they are (hill, lake etc) and which state/county(s) they're in - hence those are good characteristics to use for categorization. Very few articles (and that

1302:

But this isn't an encyclopedic category or a user-collaboration category. By your own argumnet, it has value only as a technical info category, where accuracy matters. As I have explained above, this category is useless for its stated purpose, because no competent developer would rely on it.

2132:. In a case like this where there was a huge gap between parliaments, it may be clearer to have a category title which reflects the period until the parliament was dissolved. However, that depends partly on whether or not Greek constitutional narratives view the history as one of continuity. 1435:

Exactly right. If this category has somehow been declared as a means of gauging Windows usage throughout WIkipedia (which is, of course, utter fantasy), then we should state that this is the purpose of the category. Otherwise, it appears, there's no reason for us to have such a category.

1277:

It's not an assumption. At least one practical example of a developer actually wishing to use this category was cited during the DRV; otherwise I wouldn't be making this case so strongly. User categories need not be defining, they merely have to facilitate collaborative work on the

2095:-- The convention used by WP for UK Parliaments is to treat the MP as sitting until the election day, even though three may be a gap between the dissolution of one Parliamnent and the calling of the next. This is not much of an issue today, but may have been in earlier centuries. 800:

If such categories are going to be used for devs etc, then there should be a centralised discussion about it. There's no reason for this to exist however, WMF can determine the browser and OS we're all using if it decides to do so. This is just a vanity category which serves no

2972:-- I do not see why we should not categorise them like this. This is not in the nature of a performance by performer category, since this is a geological region. If we were categorising "granite mountain ranges", I would object that the granite was effectively a performer. 3786:

Even if it was true that no internet access existed in NK (which seems to be untrue) being "from" a place, and operating there currently are not the same thing. If a person has lived most of their life in Pyongyang, but recently moved to London, they would fit this

1236:

But that makes no sense to me either. When did we start to delete categories because they might be inaccurately or inconsistently applied, or because not everyone they might apply to was in the category? When did we start to delete user categories because you can

2169:

superseded by a dictatorial regime, because it would presumably be "neater". As to upmerging the categories, this is really not the place for such a suggestion, nor do I see the rationale for abolishing the distinction by parliament, which I for one find useful.

1514:

completely unconvinced by keep rationales thus far. The argument that developers would somehow use this to find windows users is ridiculous. Want to find a windows user? throw a rock, you're guaranteed to hit hundreds of them - likely 75% of our users are on

1034:

You first. Explain the benefit of a handful of users claiming they use Windows, while (as I'm sure you're aware) any devs (for instance) can easily determine which OS (or, for instance, which browser) someone is using. This category is of no value, if it

1213:

WMF can use the server logs to get a more precise answer than 90% of computer users can give. Why use a category which may or may not ever have been accurate, and may not be up-to-date, and doesn't even tell which version of Windows is being used?

3449:. As the Internet (nevermind Knowledge (XXG)) is not available in North Korea, if you were in North Korea, you would not be able to access Knowledge (XXG), making this an impossible categorization. If this is to be kept, it needs to be renamed to 3721:. As the Internet (nevermind Knowledge (XXG)) is not available in Pyongyang, if you were in North Korea, you would not be able to access Knowledge (XXG), making this an impossible categorization. If this is to be kept, it needs to be renamed to 2112:

to a general Greek MPs category. 5 of the six articles in this category are in at least 2 other categories (often 4 other categories). This leads to needless over-categorization of people. Splitting by parliament is not a good way to subdivide

145:

I don't see a good rationale for having this category. It contains only a single sub-category (and no articles), and thus serves only to impede navigation. Unless somebody can come up with at least 2 other viable sub-cats it should be deleted.

636:

This deletion request is not necessarily duplicative of the RfC. As several commentators noted there, and as commmon sense dictates, one can potentially support the general "Wikipedians" scheme whild disagreeing with particular parts of it.

3752:

states "Internet access is available in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea), but only permitted with special authorisation and primarily used for government purposes", so some Wiki users could be contributing from there.

3495:

2948:

We don't normally categorize articles about geographic features by their underlying geology - especially when all/most of the articles don't mention the geology. For info: Many/most of the articles in the category are in the lists in the

1532:- First, the low numbers of those claiming it show there is minimal need or interest in it. Second, who cares. Third, its not encyclopedic anyway. If we keep a category at all we should upmerge all the Versions to just Microsoft Windows. 1455:. There was nothing in the DRV other then the fact that the creator was not notified that caused this to be relisted, hardly an argument to keep. So far there is no substantial case showing why this should be kept other then 1179:

you what the point of the category is and I wonder if I'm the only person who's been reading. For the sake of argument I'm prepared to accept that the WMF's knowledge of my computer is second only to that of the NSA, but

1161:

argument that this kind of "category" is redundant for that purpose? Have you ever downloaded software updates from, say, Apple or Adobe? Perhaps not, but when you do, they already tell you which OS you're using....

578:

If you didn't want this relisting you had no business raising this at DRV in the first place. Closing a DRV is never forum shopping and I'm sure most editors would have got that without your helpful comment. Thanks.

3238:

Unfortunately, calling it "local politics" would exclude much of the current content, because "local politics" usually refers to local government. So no by-elections, parliamentary constituencies, etc.

3512:

It is clear that some Knowledge (XXG) users may be in North Korea. Probably not as high a proportion of the population as in China, South Korea or many other countries, but no reason to just delete the

3547: 713:

This is characterization by a far too common character to be useful. Additionally, I as a user of windows never would think it was one of the ways to self-identify that I would categorize myself by.

216:

I interpret "by status" differently. I do not see it as "just" an active/extinct classification. By status means that it has been labeled with some sort of measure, whether it be active/extinct,

2892: 1611: 469: 42: 37: 1053:

If you know the browser, you know the OS. The OS is embedded in the browser string - it looks like this: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.0; Avant Browser ; Hotbar 4.4.5.0) --

1094:

even if I knew you were still in a category of Windows users, I would still ask the question, because you might have changed your own machine or be using someone else's, or an iPad etc. --

988:

The value is....? With a grand total of 20 or so editors in it? You do know that websites can determine what browser we're all using, don't you? This category is "fun" but not useful.

2351:: Is "programs" not used at all in Australia? Can you show me where "programmes" is preferred? I don't doubt your claim, just would like to see a little evidence to support it. Thanks. 916:

Nope, this is pointless. One would imagine that several million users browse and edit Knowledge (XXG) using "Windows" yet this category attracts mere dozens. It's actually pointless.

2139: 2777:

could be populated, except that I'm not sure you can extend the periodization "Roman Egypt" past the 600s, and therefore wonder about the usefulness of the millennium category.

1010:

value of the category to the encyclopaedia. I also don't see any connection between what browser we're using and what operating system we're using. Could you explain please?—

1325:

The reason I'm arguing this with you all is because you seem to have missed the point that in previous discussions on this very topic it's emerged that third party developers

778:

I am still waiting for an answer to Obiwankenobi's request for explanation of how this category (and its sub cats) will be used. Has it already been used in this way? --

1498:

not useful to create an encyclopaedia. If script tool-creators want to find users, who use a specific OS, than they should check the transclusions of the userboxes at

1464:

CfD can not delete maintenance categories. So far nothing here has made the case that there are in fact maintenance categories or that they serve any purpose as such.

820: 2381:

Hm... I'm surprised to see that you're right. It seems Aussie English is a bit further removed from NZ English than I thought! Sigh. Consider this withdrawn...

262:

ascribed to it has, in effect, been "standing still" long enough to so describe it. That is fundamentally different from the other kinds of parameters, such as

3319: 3217: 3196: 3140: 3114: 2053:. The IV National Assembly, elected in 1923, was disbanded in September 1925 by the dictator Pangalos, and new elections were not held until November 1926. 1871: 1830: 2511: 1410: 21: 202:

Those categories you've added aren't "by status" (active/extinct etc) categories and shouldn't be categorized with the "Volcanoes by status" category.

2769:

I don't know whether it's desirable or not to have the whole chain of categories for establishments (I'll leave that up to the category experts), but

2297: 2499: 3416: 1944:

per nom and per JPL. The other categories mentioned by Technical13 have not been tagged for this discussion, and should be considered separately. --

1863: 863:

Can you be more specific? e.g. in what situation would a category populated with 20 people who use MS windows be useful for some technical reason?--

2588:

actually covers the 18th, 19th, and 20th dynasties of Pharaohs or the 16th to 11th century BC. The period actually covered by these categories is

1499: 221: 2293: 2752:

where it will still be the only article, and then delete the whole lot of 8 categories that exist to hold one article. This is category overkill.

2774: 2527: 1867: 1263:

to assume that this category, which covers about 90% of computer users, is used by developers. How in any way shape or form is this defining?

331: 169: 2487: 17: 3850: 3598: 3295: 3251: 3180: 2475: 2203: 2154: 1956: 1425: 1371: 1315: 1226: 1106: 1092:"S Marshall, you report a problem with the new application. Please can you tell me what browser and operating system you are using for this?" 790: 346: 2515: 605:

Okay, let's add some detail why this category (and most subs) should be kept. These categories are maintenance categories used by various

508: 2523: 500: 3822: 3726: 3570: 3454: 3407: 3266: 3221: 2818: 2503: 2135: 2535: 288:. But I agree that these new subcats are not actually "by status" categories, and should not be parented by this particular category. 2681: 491: 2075: 2071: 1707:: Although this category only has one direct member, it also has a subcategory with 14 members which is plenty of content for me. 3804:

per the others. Also note that it's possible for a Wikipedian to be in North Korea even if not editing the 'pedia while there. –

3530:

per the others. Also note that it's possible for a Wikipedian to be in North Korea even if not editing the 'pedia while there. –

115: 3315: 3157: 2689: 2685: 2491: 1350: 1291: 1250: 1201: 1151: 1081: 1023: 979: 943: 907: 378:

Like I said above, I have no objection in principle to having this category if other sub-cats can be found that actually involve

3769:-- Strangely, we seem to have one Mexican user, who claims to be from Pyongyang! Perhaps he/she works in the Mexican embassy. 3134: 2479: 123: 2592:, or simply "Roman Egypt". Also he/she misplaced the year 122 in the 1st century, when it is actually part of the 2nd century. 2547: 327: 173: 2559: 2814: 106: 3688: 3450: 3424: 1002:

One of us is deeply confused about this, and I hope it isn't me. I don't see any connection between the number of editors

3745: 3722: 2770: 2539: 284:

If there are enough viable subcats of this sort, they could perhaps be placed in an umbrella category along the lines of

3855: 3830: 3810: 3796: 3778: 3761: 3734: 3696: 3670: 3603: 3578: 3558: 3536: 3522: 3504: 3479: 3462: 3398: 3331: 3300: 3274: 3256: 3233: 3208: 3185: 3122: 3052: 3029: 3008: 2981: 2962: 2900: 2822: 2805: 2786: 2761: 2738: 2713: 2672: 2655: 2638: 2601: 2465: 2393: 2376: 2360: 2341: 2282: 2208: 2176: 2159: 2122: 2104: 2087: 2060: 2028: 1961: 1941: 1933: 1912: 1898: 1883: 1859: 1848: 1826: 1818: 1751: 1716: 1697: 1619: 1541: 1524: 1506: 1490: 1473: 1445: 1430: 1376: 1354: 1320: 1295: 1272: 1254: 1231: 1205: 1170: 1155: 1111: 1085: 1062: 1048: 1027: 997: 983: 961: 947: 925: 911: 872: 844: 814: 795: 768: 754: 740: 722: 705: 686: 672: 643: 631: 598: 583: 573: 543: 477: 391: 369: 351: 318: 297: 275: 253: 211: 193: 158: 97: 3875: 3679: 3651: 3623: 3379: 3351: 3100: 3072: 2870: 2842: 2441: 2413: 2258: 2230: 2009: 1981: 1799: 1771: 1589: 1561: 441: 413: 78: 3130: 2749: 2693: 2629: 1688: 1537: 533: 748:

This is apparently useful to a few tool-creators and fits the general tradition of hte main Wikipedians category. –

285: 1892: 2191:. I am persuaded by Constantine's explanation that the new name more accurately reflects the category's purpose. -- 1441: 1166: 1044: 993: 957: 921: 810: 764: 736: 682: 532:

I am relisting this CFD to discuss a new argument raised by the DRV nominator. This cat was properly deleted after

2551: 2040: 2036: 1645: 1637: 3846: 3792: 3594: 3569:

North Korea", and not "in North Korea", so there's already a mismatch between the template and the category. --

3518: 3291: 3247: 3176: 2757: 2563: 2199: 2150: 2118: 1952: 1929: 1421: 1367: 1311: 1222: 1102: 786: 718: 619: 553: 342: 2918: 606: 1486: 3586:

per the others. If someone wants to identify themselves as being in or from North Korea, that's up to them. --

2697: 1732:

and there doesn't need to be an eponymous category as well. It creates needless layers for minimal content. --

1300:

You ask "when did we start to delete categories because they might be inaccurately or inconsistently applied"?

2773:

probably has several potential members that couldn't be placed there until it's correctly renamed. Certainly

1628: 759:

Not at all, please provide evidence that this is "useful" to devs, I very much doubt it is even considered.

3838:

per the others. If someone wants to identify themselves as being in or from Pyongyang, that's up to them. --

3826: 3821:

Pyongyang", and not "in Pyongyang", so there's already a mismatch between the template and the category. --

3774: 3749: 3730: 3574: 3492: 3458: 3270: 3229: 2977: 2709: 2633: 2100: 1692: 258:

The key word here is "standing", which derives from the same root as "status". A phenomenon that can have a

2909: 1138:

Sorry, just to be clear. This category is unnecessary and pointless because you can just ask me, correct?—

696:

can those who want this kept please be specific about how this category (and its sub cats) will be used? --

3554: 3204: 3156:, a local govt area in London. However, the word "Westminster" is widely used colloqially to refer to the 2668: 2589: 2356: 2278: 2083: 1908: 1879: 1712: 1533: 1520: 1058: 868: 840: 701: 627: 569: 249: 189: 825:... while MediaWiki core developers may not use such categories, WikiProject and usercript developers do. 557: 554:

Category talk:Wikipedians#RfC: Is this category and current subcategories appropriate for Knowledge (XXG)

3871: 3647: 3619: 3375: 3347: 3161: 3096: 3068: 2926: 2866: 2838: 2461: 2437: 2409: 2254: 2226: 2005: 1977: 1795: 1767: 1585: 1557: 1469: 1437: 1268: 1162: 1040: 989: 953: 917: 806: 760: 732: 678: 610:

encyclopedic community with new tools. That being said, it should also be noted that there is a 22-0-4

529: 437: 409: 74: 3039: 1841: 326:

per nom, unless the cat can be populated with at least 5 subcats which genuinely fit. The 2 additions (

2701: 731:

seems to be fewer than a couple of dozen editors using the template (and its child cats), albeit red.

3839: 3788: 3587: 3514: 3284: 3240: 3169: 2753: 2585: 2192: 2143: 2114: 1945: 1925: 1414: 1360: 1346: 1334: 1304: 1287: 1246: 1215: 1197: 1147: 1095: 1077: 1019: 975: 939: 903: 779: 714: 335: 1729: 1456: 3667: 3395: 3153: 3119: 3025: 2897: 2373: 2173: 2057: 2025: 1815: 1616: 1482: 474: 458: 181: 94: 3220:. While it is a London Borough, it is called the City of Westminster. Conceivably, it should be 3168:

shows that the phrase is overwhelmingly used to refer to Parliament rather than to the borough. --

3770: 3280: 3225: 2973: 2801: 2782: 2734: 2705: 2651: 2597: 2387: 2335: 2321: 2096: 387: 293: 271: 154: 656: 3165: 2729:, and the event described occurred 152 years following the death of the last Ptolemaic rulers. 3870:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3618:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3550: 3473: 3346:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3327: 3200: 3067:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2837:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2664: 2408:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2352: 2274: 2225:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2079: 1976:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1904: 1875: 1766:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1708: 1556:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1516: 1054: 864: 836: 697: 623: 565: 465: 408:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

245: 185: 3646:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3374:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3095:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2865:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2436:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2253:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

2004:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1794:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1584:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

613: 436:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

73:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

3806: 3532: 3048: 3004: 2958: 2457: 1465: 1264: 750: 668: 639: 594: 365: 314: 207: 177: 1401: 2625: 1684: 1338: 1279: 1238: 1189: 1139: 1069: 1011: 967: 931: 895: 2995:

the feature is above. An article (e.g. about a region or a country) might mention which

1725: 1260: 2454:

Rename. No consensus for an upmerge; if one is needed, it can be discussed in a new CfD.

334:) are both categories by magnitude rather than by status, so I will remove them both. -- 3021: 2996: 2722: 2170: 2054: 1895: 1894:

was that communities in more than one county can have their own 'People from' category.

1845: 592:

forum shopping. A close of "relist" is one of the basic options for closing a DRV. –

91:

delete; maybe this could be re-assessed if more than one valid subcategory ever exists

2797: 2778: 2730: 2647: 2593: 2382: 2330: 2316: 1503: 383: 289: 267: 150: 3755: 3498: 3469: 3323: 2950: 580: 561: 540: 217: 828: 3044: 3000: 2992: 2954: 2726: 2577: 2134:

I oppose upmerger, because this is part of a series of similar categories under

1891:. Halleyville is a community in more than one category. An earlier CFD consensus 952:

Sure it is, it's adopting an opposing position. This category is of no value.

664: 660: 361: 310: 203: 2576:

recently created these categories to cover a specific event, the foundation of

1728:. The 14 members are all in a albums category and sufficiently categorized per 2612: 2573: 1724:. That one category should be enough to satisfy the categorization scheme per 1671: 1407:

the users who add themselves to the category will have no interest in testing.

1359:

I stand by my view of any developer who would use the category in that way. --

1211:

invite the user to visit a webpage of the developer's, which can log the data.

231: 2369: 966:

Oh, okay then, we can do that. The category isn't pointless. It has value.—

239: 235: 3640: