Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 December 31

3519:. If in 10 years no one is discussing what it meant that there were so many people arguing against the vaccines -- and so many RS commenting on the ones who died of COVID as part of the culture of the day -- we can always adjust our coverage. Personally I think it's likely to pass the 10 year test as something that was very much commented on during the pandemic. There are conspiracy theories about antivax activists dying from COVID. There are are social influencers calling for violence against medical professionals because antivaxxers have been "murdered" in hospitals. There are lawsuits because hospitals wouldn't give ivermectin and insisted on giving remdesivir. I'm not sure how we can assume this isn't going to be commented on at length in the scholarship of 2030. 3603:. Using a category instead of a bare list is a much better option. It is good to be able to find the various people who became a victim of their own foolishness. Their deaths should not be in vain, but serve as a warning to others. The category is not for ordinary people, but for activists, so their notoriety was of their own doing. They did not act in a private manner. Knowledge is a mainstream encyclopedia, and we do not support fringe views, but support RS when they expose them, and anti-vax positions are fringe views. Keeping this hidden by not covering it helps to advance fringe views. -- 3437:(for which there is a robust category tree), and as deaths from COVID-19. The aspect that would be "shameful" in this formulation would be their anti-vaccination activism, which is going to be categorized either way. The intersection with their historically interesting cause of death is ripe to be categorized because it is an intersection that is now noted and examined in numerous high-level sources. 2975:, profiling the phenomenon of people being categorized as anti-vaccination activists who have died of COVID-19, including " website called Sorry Antivaxxer, which catalogues the covid-19 deaths of people who had publicly posted their rejection of the vaccine", as well as "the Twitter account Covidiot Deaths, the Reddit forum called the Herman Cain Award", and the criticisms these outlets have faced. 2517: 719: 700: 681: 662: 643: 624: 605: 586: 3026:, but have been informed that previous lists of COVID-19 deniers and opponents of other COVID-19 safety measures have been deleted (again, prior to the more recent coverage of the phenomenon of sources categorizing such deaths), so I want to be sure that it is on solid footing before proposing to move it to mainspace. The list and the category would serve different purposes, in my opinion. 3794:- I'm a little split on this topic, on one hand it has received a good amount of coverage, but on the other hand it does feel a bit like an attack category. If the category is kept, however, there needs to be a clear definition of what constitutes an "anti-vaccination activists". Fore examples, would politicians who opposed vaccine mandates and who died from COVID-19 such as 1405:-- That was my suggestion in the previous CFD. Baronies are (as I understand it) defunct administrative units, so that it is appropriate to parent them to a defunct county. Various Welsh categories have been messed up in a similar way by splitting the old counties into the present council areas, giving minute categories. Perhaps leave cat-redirect. 1645: 1730:

areas. Any other seconary usage is not germain to the functioning of the county. The county itself has no powers; only the Sheriff of the County, the Lord Lieutentant of the County, the Justice of the County, the Grand Jury of the County, the High Poobah of the the County has actual power. When the barony of Kilmanmangh was divided into

1426:. Most would admit, somewhat reluctantly in the case of a few editors, that the county was legally abolished as a layer of local government. Such editors have a romantic attachment to the former local government area and have been consistent in pursuing their nostalgic editing over the years. Their fallback conceit in pursuit of 1443:

has the power to magic County Dublin back into existence. The same is true for car name plates; if the "D" plate for the former county of Dublin was the arbiter, then how to explain the "W" and "WD" plates for Waterford or the "L" and "LK" plates for Limerick? As for the the GAA, it thinks that there

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I do feel there is value in having a category for logicians as such. As logic is an interdisciplinary field between the three areas of philosophy, mathematics and computer science, there will those for whom the distinction is not clear cut and for whom it is better to have a category that is broader

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That other private societies, club and administrative bodies choose to make use of areas demarkated for local government or judicial administration is just a convenient thing. They are in no way integral to what it is to be a county. The function of a county, as erected in law, is to demarcate such

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as nom. I agree that there is a problem, as there was no "Spain" before the Catholic monarchs in c.1490s. France existed as a theoretical overlordship for much of this time. Many of the "Spanish" troubadours were actually Catalan. I would suggest that someone who knows about this should create a

280:, in the category tree "French" means "from France", so the proposed rename will only create confusion and inconsistency without actually solving anything. If it would be better to categorize troubadours based on language instead of based on nationality (which I am not sure of) then it should become 1776:

Where have I said that the Irish government does not continue to use County Dublin as a geographical unit? For the purposes of elections etc, the government is free to combine as many counties or parts or counties into constituences or regions of the European Union as it wishes. Some things are not

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it's not nice to mention them. "Not nice" and "grave dancing" are not policies. Those are personal editorial opinions that often violate NPOV and NOTCENSORED. We often should do what isn't "nice" because RS have done it, and our job is to stay out of the way and document what the RS say, including

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Listing people by this intersection inevitably comes across as an attempt to mock them by juxtaposing their cause of death with their previously held beliefs. That's disparaging them, and that's true regardless of whether mocking them is wrong or not. Notability is a red herring; it's possible to

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This is demonstrably false, as a point of fact. Counties are used as geographical units for many official purposes, including land registration and vehicle registration plates. Neither of those functions are either judicial functions or local government organs (the local authorities which issue

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entity was abolished, the county remains, in some ghostly form, in the hearts and minds of all true Dubliners. This is, of course, complete tosh; a county serves no other function that to define the geographic operational remit of judicial or local government organs. Once that geograhic remit is

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True and we are still working out the best way to handle categorisation for these situations. We assume that our categories are mostly about nationality, but ethnicity, language and location all impinge. Italy didnt exist in the 12th century either. I dont see "from Italy" as an improvement.

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definitely has a long history prior to 1994, and it's quite a detailed page for that. But as a legal county, with any subdivisions, it existed only from 1994. While there can be baronies on the margins of counties that have moved from one to the other, we should roughly use the counties as they

3048:

Actually, BD2412, I hope this information is retained in some form. But I thought without a "Keep" or "No consensus" decision here in a new CFD discussion, then this page would at some point get tagged for speedy deletion, CSD G4. The only way to overturn a CFD decision, unfortunately, is a

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The creator of the nominated category (and also the nominator of the Dec9 CFD) has long pursued an agenda that "County Dublin" has been abolished, which is why they have created these absurd sub-categories. That notion of complete abolition is false: the administrative entity of

3284: 3287:. As I said in that discussion, I wouldn't want to see a cat or list unless we have an article on the topic, which we don't but I think we could. If we have an article on the topic, that demonstrates the phenomenon is notable, not just OR curration or of mere recentism. 3835:

article is a stub, and frankly I'd like to know more about the extent of their advocacy in this area, and whether it extended to denying the utility of the vaccines, or seeking to persuade people not to be vaccinated even outside of the context of vaccination mandates.

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There is no BLP problem if the relevant bio article includes RS which document it. It is "unsourced" "negative" content that would be a BLP issue. "Negative" on its own is not an issue. UNCENSORED covers this. We do not protect people beyond our PAG, just because we

1594:. Given that and the lack of a any administrative connection between the baronies and the new county of Fingal, it makes much more sense for the baronies to to be categorised by the counties of which they were administrative units. So I still support the merge. 1772:

Laurel Lodged has now posted a second verbose reply in which they have chosen to ignore the fact that the Irish government continues to use County Dublin as a geographical unit. Instead, we have been subjected to yet another of LL's verbose tilts at straw men.

3338:: this is now a significant defining factor in the history of each subject's biography, as this is a significant global concern and often brings the subject to wider public attention. It was previously argued that this category was influenced by Recentism, but 2734:

in the direction suggested. The Jungian tradition (i.e. the practice of psychology that is in the tradition of Jung) is analytical psychology. The articles in the categories display the same scope. The common name and the article name is analytical psychology.

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Just to recap, your argument is "it's ridiculous that the field is even called that"? Because to my knowledge, we go off what people call it, not whether that's actually a reasonable name. Also, it is a reasonable name if you examine the historical context.

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legally altered or indeed abolished, the county too is abolished and exists only in old land deeds and history books. The fact that some social organisations may have have decided to arrange their organisational structures to mirror the

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Those assertions are mendacious. As in other discussions of this issue, my objection is based solely on evidence of continued usage by public authorities and private bodies. At no point have I expressed a personal view, let alone any

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An "Attack page" is one that "exists primarily to disparage or threaten its subject; or biographical material that is entirely negative in tone and unsourced or poorly sourced". This is not that. The policy you are looking for is

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was surprising, because two of the three participants queried whether the category should exist at all. Yes, they did not make formal !votes ... but when nobody supported the nominator, I cannot see a positive consensus for

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starts with some bitchy snark whose only function is to smear and misrepresent other editors, raising the temperature of discussion while staying just below the threshold at which it would be clearly a personal attack:

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In short, reliable sources are both categorizing anti-vaccination activists who have died of COVID-19, and covering the phenomenon of people being categorized as anti-vaccination activists who have died of COVID-19.

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in Ireland is that they continue to be officially defined units although they are no longer used for many administrative purposes. On a separate point, I'm coming around to the view that the entire tree structure of

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what about the science of logic vs the philosophy of logic? Logic now isn't the thought-field of yore, since it is a field of study for information science and mathematics, instead of philosophy --

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A category like this is a big BLP red flag because it puts the claim in Wiki voice vs the voice of others. It also means we have applied the "anti-vax" label in Wiki-voice vs with attribution.

2917:. While it seems interesting to me to see, perhaps it would be better as a list. Since the other category was deleted, for this one to persist, it should be the result of another CFD discussion. 3023: 2664:

taking the name of a general proceeding as "flag name symbol" for my special branch of business is a "clever" marketing maneuver, isn't it? Nontheless I'm glad that you accept my proposal of

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Surely notability for a relationship to a limited-time movement is possible. But passing away while part of a movement will eventually (when covid is no longer hot news) become a triviality.

2937:, because circumstances have changed since the previous discussion (of which I was not aware). This is a category that is going to be recreated perennially under some variation of the name 3095:

I typically like and regularly use categories by cause of death. But we don't typically categorize people who died due to their own stupidity. Knowledge is not following the spirit of the

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It won't evaporate from having been the subject of coverage, though. In fact, there may be studies for years or decades on the effect that reporting such deaths had on vaccination rates.

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I have no objection to the alternative proposed by Laurel Lodged, and am prepared to tag all the baronies categories for renaming to "in" if anyone else indicates support for that. –

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useful cross-categorization; these people have generally received a significant amount of coverage on this topic so it's not OR. The sam reason ar Elli I dont have better words. --

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and perhaps listify, per nom. Also, it seems non-defining and petty even to make such a distinction, imho. But if folks think it's necessary, a list would be far more appropriate.

3116:- I consider that this information should be retained in some form. It is important that those stupid enough to be anti-vaxers should have the stupidity of their views exposed. 1481:

was an enclave of a county within a county. The archbishops of Dublin had jurisdiction over counties that lay partly in the modern counties of Dublin, Wicklow and Kildare. Today,

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We have a substantial number of categories applicable to people notable for their relationship to a limited-time movement. I don't think recentism is an applicable concept here.

258:, not French (or Spanish or Italian). They are defined by the language they used. The current category names are confusing. The equivalent of a troubadour writing in French is a 2524: 631: 1802: 1699: 1352: 2850: 2663:

Well, seriously, if you are doing diagnostics (in psychology just as in medicine) almost all work you do is analytical. That was my basic reason to talk of "marketing" -: -->

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is in Knowledge. It will always be in Wiki. The proposal does not propose to abolish County Dublin in law (the Oireachtas already did that job) nor in Wiki. End of strawman.

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is the only one that is correctly named. While in most cases, baronies do not straddle county bounds, in former times, they did in fact cover multiple counties. For example,

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I believe the similar lists have already been deleted several times. This does come across as grave dancing. BLP may also apply since these people are recently departed.

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In an AFD for the analogous "list of..." article, I proposed using these sorts of refs to write an article on the phenomenon (you and I each found a ref the other didn't:)

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Absolutely it is "necessarily to be used for Occitan-language troubadours only". That is how the term is used in scholarship. The way in which the category tree privileges

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is a malicious falsehood without foundation. It is well past time for LL to deist from their campaign to disrupt through a smear campaign of mendacious misrepresentation.

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The very wording of this category is inherently meant to be an attack on those people categorized. Knowledge should not have categorized worded in a way to attack people.

360:"Spanish" is not a nationality that existed during the time of the troubadours. Whatever "12th-century Spanish" means in any context, it cannot refer to a "nationality". 2893: 855:- this is a topic category, with 102 articles. A rational number is not a field; a theorem is not a field; a theory is not a field. By all means create a set subcat 3656:

That has been a problem with specific examples on that list. It does help that AVA list isn't grave dancing while this one certainly smells like grave dancing.

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Upmerge as anachronistic – the Baronies were created before the County, when it was part of County Dublin. The category is inconsistently named following

93:. There's agreement from multiple participants that the current categories are unsatisfactory, but near-universal consensus against the proposed solution. 460: 374:

Agree on that, it should be Aragonese or Castilian. But changing "Spanish" to "from Spain", again, does not solve anything because it means the same.

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Surely you understand that pointing out two things in conjunction can be used to make a point that would not be made if they were noted separately?

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While I disagree on the "marketing" aspect (analytical psychology is just a commonly used term), reverse merging is preferable over the status quo.

1907: 165: 156: 147: 284:. Note by the way that troubadour is an English-language and international term, not necessarily to be used for Occitan-language troubadours only. 21: 1532:

County Dublin. Thus it is not an anachronism to categorise it into County Dublin. Equally, it may also be categorised into the modern county of

1952:, which defines regions by the traditional counties. But that's a side issue to whether historic divisions should be grouped by modern county. 1470: 1295: 3233:

I tend to think that the question of whether it is or is not is a matter of the measure of coverage of that relationship in reliable sources.

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if necessary. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with a list, but "hey, look, irony got them in the end!" isn't the basis for a category.

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prefered as even if Jung himself chose the marketing name Analytical psychology the Jungian tradition wording is much more self-evident. --

2411: 1967: 1537: 1073: 840: 2563:. The merge will be in the direction nominated; the article name adds weight in that direction. I will redirect the nominated category. – 3824: 3778: 3633: 3434: 2077: 2038: 1323:, so for all but the first 15 years of its 820-year administrative existence, that barony was part of County Dublin. The baronies have 1320: 17: 3138: 3136: 1777:

germain to the functioning of the county. County Dublin, a a county, was abolished. It says as much in the debates in the Dáil. Go ask

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It is long past time that action was taken to allow these issues to be discussed without disrupted by LL's mendacious smear campaigns.

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to Category:Baronies of County Dublin, as this is anachronistic. A barony created in 1177 cannot be part of a county created in 1994.

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in literature is itself a problem. It is only magnified when you go back to the Middle Ages and nationality as we know doesn't exist.

456: 1587:: I oppose doing that as a modification of this nom, or as a replacement for this nom, because it doesn't resolve the anachronism. 169: 160: 151: 142: 241: 232: 214: 205: 196: 187: 3703:

useful cross-categorization; these people have generally received a significant amount of coverage on this topic so it's not OR.

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in scope (and even though many computer scientists that use logic would not consider themselves logicians, some certainly do).

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and the wrongdoers you have in mind are the media outlets who are reporting on the notability of this specific intersection.

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Trying to discuss these issues with Laurel Lodged is a tedious exercise in rebutting LL's snarky and fact-averse denialism.

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is the oldest county in Ireland, having been created in the 1190s. The baronies were created at around the same time; e.g.

1255:, which results in no links showing up in its navigation template. Merging was also suggested in the original discussion. – 1533: 1343:

was abolished, but "County Dublin" remains in use as a defined geographical area for many other purposes, most visibly for

281: 3827:, so we have been categorizing people as falling into that structure for some time. I would say that it applies to anyone 2691: 3870: 3851: 3811: 3786: 3769: 3750: 3733: 3716: 3685: 3665: 3651: 3627: 3595: 3578: 3557: 3528: 3504: 3484: 3466: 3452: 3424: 3401: 3376: 3355: 3330: 3313: 3296: 3271: 3248: 3228: 3214: 3194: 3177: 3161: 3125: 3108: 3087: 3060: 3041: 3012: 2998: 2928: 2865: 2784: 2744: 2718: 2703: 2677: 2654: 2636: 2618: 2575: 2479: 2461: 2443: 2418: 2378: 2340: 2323: 2307: 2294: 2262: 2222: 2147: 2130: 2113: 2095: 2063: 2052: 1971: 1941:

existed in 1898. They were administrative units, not buildings or landmarks. On the other hand, baronies do have a bare

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a county serves no other function that to define the geographic operational remit of judicial or local government organs

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per Dimadick. The parent categories already categorize people by nationality, so actual ethnicity is irrelevant here. --

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contains a large number of subcategories related to the pandemic, none of which is considered an example of Recentism.

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is really concerned with article bloat, not category definition. In any case, the COVID topic area is now 2 years old.

2288: 2256: 1494: 1027: 2073: 133: 129: 223: 178: 3741:, you should actually read the article. There is no grave dancing, and any BLP concerns have already been fixed. -- 1347:: the "D" plate covers the whole of Dublin City and and the whole of the former County Dublin. A Google search for 3712: 3383: 3343: 2857: 2755: 2585: 2567: 2389: 2214: 1570: 1389: 1382: 1259: 1149: 1104: 856: 801: 1035: 1018: 3890: 3807: 3553: 3309: 3146: 2834: 2806: 2673: 2632: 2548: 2501: 2439: 2195: 2167: 2143: 2022: 1994: 1838: 1715: 1623: 1525: 1474: 1365: 1281: 1239: 1202: 1174: 981: 953: 750: 570: 420: 78: 2915:

Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2021 August 23#Category:Anti-vaccination activists who died of COVID-19

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 February 8#Category:Defunct LGBT nightclubs in the United States

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As BHG has outlined above, a number of Irish editors have been in long-term disagreement over the status of

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As far as I can tell these are two ways of saying the same thing. Massive overlap between the categories.

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Barely used category for a highly technical definition. Both entries are already in the parent category. –

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This is entirely out of scope. Computer scientists use logic but that does not mean they are logicians.

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Computer scientists and other logic programmers are mostly NOT philosophers (except maybe as hobby). So

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The parent categories already categorize people by nationality, so actual ethnicity is irrelevant here.

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in the news to make a point indeed. But that point is going to become trivial when Covid19 fades away.

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and don't listify. Listing people by this intersection is fundamentally contrary to our policy against

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is a better merge title. No particular objection from me if consensus prefers to merge the other way.

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If we skip past LL's bilious hot air and mendacity, then we get to the core falsehood of LL's stance:

3818: 3803: 3549: 3462: 3458: 3420: 3416: 3372: 3368: 3305: 3185:, at most listify, this is typical case of recentism. Nobody will care about this in two years time. 2669: 2628: 2435: 2139: 1955: 1884: 1829: 1753: 1706: 1614: 1356: 1316: 819: 538: 502: 440: 432: 416: 1613:", then I would support the renaming provided that all 32 traditional counties remained consistent. 3729: 3339: 3267: 2970: 2767: 2401: 2091: 1959: 1453: 1436: 1303: 1138: 1056: 823: 398:

rival language based tree, while this CFD is open, with a view to the present one being deleted.

3799: 3661: 3623: 3591: 3524: 3412: 3169: 3117: 3104: 2853:, where there have been previous discussions about whether to have a list of notable examples. – 2740: 2714: 2475: 2358: 2232: 2122: 2109: 1911: 1813: 1782: 1759: 1591: 1549: 1498: 1449: 1406: 1223: 1117: 1002: 399: 336: 1097: 1355:, and if "County Dublin" is widely used by the Irish Govt, it should be usable by Knowledge. -- 3885:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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is a barony that lies partly in county Galway and partly in county Clare. So "Leitrim" is not

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

1805:, and if "County Dublin" is widely used by the Irish Govt, it should be usable by Knowledge. 1197:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

903:. One would expect mathematicians to know the difference between a set and a topic category. 745:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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being an anti-vaccination activist prior to and separate from the event of their death. The

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This is literally only one degree different from the fact that all of these subjects would

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 March 9#Category:Psychoanalytic terminology

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There are about 30 entries that are about specific fields or classes of fields, such as

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or anyone else can point to any law that says otherwise, let them show the citation.

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were later re-united. So counties can come and go at the whim of the legislature. If

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 March 9#Category:Resovia Rzeszów coaches

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 February 8#Category:History of Hanukkah

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Knowledge:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_December_9#Category:Baronies_of_Fingal

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D-plate vehicle registrations do not include an authority called "County Dublin").

3837: 3637: 3490: 3438: 3387: 3288: 3234: 3200: 3027: 3004: 2984: 2967:"What do all these stories of vaccine denial deaths do to our sense of empathy?" 2057: 1778: 1457: 781: 613:

Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 January 16#Category:Scientific laws

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Knowledge:Categories for discussion/Log/2022 February 8#Psychiatric instruments

3347: 3262:- Is, and will be, objectively notable, long after the situation concludes. - 1440: 904: 864: 519: 482: 361: 311: 263: 1928:

My instinct would be to use Dublin. In a possibly analogous edit, I recently

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was created in 1177. The baronies' administrative role was abolished by the

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their bias and "not nice"ness. Neutering the RS is a violation of NPOV. --

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