Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 13

1636:

them in order to misrepresent the situation. Your edits were *wrong*, some to a comical degree, which is absolutely understandable for someone editing outside their area of expertise, about something in a foreign country. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, thinking that you were just confused, that you somehow didn't notice the places in the articles where it was clearly stated were the people were from, but it seems I was wrong. The mistakes seem to have been purposeful (and again I have no idea why somebody would do this, I just woke up to a bunch of obviously mistaken edits and reversed them stating the reason in the edit summaries). About the nomination you're referring to, I will again say there was no clear result. There is a tree of categories, and there was no idea of what the general solution would be. A bot was put to do the job, and it resulted in a literally buggy category. I brought up the issue in the next discussion, saying a consensus on a general solution should be reached, but there wasn't enough interest. --

1218:

of Greece, it would correspond to the "demotikes enotetes" (translated as "municipal units"). This is very obvious if you're Greek, but probably quite confusing if you aren't, so I wouldn't act so confident. I'm tired of having to explain Greek geography. I don't know how I can prove this to you, you could open Google maps I guess and look at the "grey" of the city of Karditsa and compare it to the size of the regional unit. Greece is a unitary state, so we can't have the same representative standards as the USA, which is a federation, however regional units have "nomarches" (i.e. Governors). Municipal units have political representation as well, as municipalities in other countries. In 2011, in an attempt at centralisation, municipal units stopped electing mayors, but this again has to do with the country's unitary approach and isn't relevant. To use another unitary country as an example, France doesn't have a legislature for any of its departments. But again this conversation is becoming pointlessly complex. --

1459:

They are not "crossroads, neighborhoods, streets, or villages", they are usually collections of some dozen towns, one to three of them usually being relatively major, and they're the level of specification that's usually available in articles, both within and outside of Knowledge (XXG). I have chosen it mostly for this reason when studying the sources for the thousands of Greek biographies in Knowledge (XXG) to categorise them, going by Knowledge (XXG)'s spirit of being modeled on its sources. There are of course various other more "hands on" reasons for this being the case (some of which I explained in the previous discussions), but what should really matter here is that that's what the articles are doing, and the categories follow it. Wider categorisation is also anachronistic since these divisions are relatively recent (the provinces or "deme" only being formed in 2011), and I mention this since you yourself brought it up in the previous discussion.

1696:

because people seem to be keen on removing her without reason. So much that I had to provide a government document saying Vrangiana is in Acheloos. I keep saying it over and over again, but you would rather keep moving it around rather than just believe me (or at least the document I provided). Acheloos still exists of course, the name of this type of administrative division just changed in 2011. It didn't get nuked, it's still a geographical division (what we care about) and a functioning administrative division. The categories are continuously growing larger, and many that had or two members the last time we had this discussion now have reached the unofficial threshold of 5. SMALLCAT specifically says they need to not have the potential for growth. --

1597:, from which he removed 5 articles (enough for the category to be retained even if there wasn't the clear potential for growth), in order to avoid discussion. He made many mistakes, intentional or not, and when I reverted them he ignored my explanation and tried to misrepresent my corrections as vandalistic. I have no idea why he is doing this, but it is disruptive. I have made clear both in the edit summaries and in this discussion why I recreated said category, and there was no opposition to it until now. -- 2426:

used term), was caught on grainy security camera footage. In fact, I think this dispute about what to call things in which people are killed is going to encompass a lot of articles. What we can determine is someone died and the death was caused by the action of other people (although some cases even that is disputed), so killing makes sense. Homicide and murder relate more to legal culpability, and will not cover all these incidents (especially since several of them are military actions).

1392:" and read the first sentence. The short explanation is that no, it isn't "obsolete". It is a functioning "demotike enoteta", corresponding to what is usually called a "municipality" in English, but usually misleadingly translated as "municipal unit". In 2011 "deme" (misleading translation: "municipalities") were renamed into "demotikes enotetes" (misleading translation: "municipal units"). But still this wouldn't really matter, as it's used as a geographic identifier. 1464:

have 5 or more articles as members, and deleting some now will only make the structure confusing and make it harder for editors who will have to recreate the smaller ones when they reach that amount. An example of that is the category we're talking about (Argithea). In the previous discussion it was considered for merging with Acheloos because it was its only member (and deletion since Efi Thodi had be removed again), but this is not the case anymore.

1186:. (San Diego is also the name of both city and county.) We don't categorize me as raised in the Moulin Rouge neigborhood in the city of Madison Heights in the county of Oakland in the state of Michigan, although that neighborhood has 10 times the population of Vrangiana, and the county has 10 times the population of Karditsa region. They are merely suburbs of Detroit. A US state has an elected legislature, and an independent judiciary; that is, a 5434: 4635: 3800: 502: 524: 1276:

in common the fact that the French department/Greek prefecture level is in many practical aspect the first-level administrative division both legally and culturally since these were formed in the 1790s/1830s respectively. The French and Greek regions were created much later (ca. 1970s) to aggregate lower-level divisions. There are, in this regard, comparable to the unofficial

1398:

an entirely different region, and the confusion probably arised from the first sentence saying that the person acted as Governor of Imathia. I corrected that and explained all that in the edit summary, but I will in good faith assume that this again was just missed. The (stub) article is sourced, including this detail.

1849:

Over my 40+ publications, I've had several Greek co-authors and collaborators. (All are now in the US.) After consultation, (regional unit) is not where we should upmerge. They are parallel to the old Prefectures, but in many cases are merely parts of larger metropolitan areas such as Athens. (See my

1458:

Previously we talked about downmerging, which is the only viable option in cases like this, so that no information is lost. We don't categorise people by USA states but by cities. In a similar manner, we don't categorise people in Greece by regional units but by municipalities ("demotikes enotetes").

1275:

I'm not sure how we get there, but France and Greece, as sovereign countries, are the equivalent of the US. Their first-level administrative divisions are the equivalents or US states in this regard, and the federal vs. unitary structure of government does not change that. France and Greece also have

1217:

a metropolitan area (like the Athens of Thessaloniki metropolitan areas) is ridiculous, you can ask any Greek person about it. Regional units or "nomoi" are equivalent to states. Greece has only two metropolitan areas, those of Athens and Thessaloniki, but if tried to find the equivalent in the rest

2425:

which was ruled in court to be an involuntary manaslaughter. Does that actually fall under homicide? Also, when I first saw this category, I thought this would be limited to deaths deliberately caught on intentionally made film. That killing in question (note we use killing in the title, so it is a

1878:

about it. Simple question: "Would you consider prefectures (we still call them that unofficially) to be equivalent to metropolitan areas, like Athens and Thessaloniki, or for example Rome, or wider regions, such as for example Abruzzo?". The result was, as expected, a unanimous choice of the second

1695:

What you are doing, and I really believe you are doing in good faith, is disruptive. Efi Thodi has been removed from the proper category many times. At least one of these was done by William Allen Simpson in a deliberate attempt to delete the category. I return her not because it is disruptive, but

1615:

The number of edits where I've accidentally forgotten an edit summary in 15 years is very small. That is not the case here. For previous discussions, note the "See also" in the nomination. The fact that nobody else noticed the odd "frοm" until now is an indication of hidden perfidy, not the lack of

1463:

specifically says "Small with no potential for growth", which is demonstrably not the case here. These categories are growing constantly, and if they are deleted it will only result in them being recreated shortly after, when the available articles will have grown. A lot of these categories already

1397:

As for the second person, again we have the same problem as before, as seemingly the first word was missed. The article says he is from "Petrochori, Karditsa". Petrochori is in Anatoliki Argithea. William Allen Simpson seems to not have seen that, and tried to recategorise it to Imathia. Imathia is

1094:

Karditsa is a regional unit (something like a state in the USA). Acheloos is in Karditsa. The article says she was born in the regional unit of Karditsa. It's like saying somebody born in San Diego was born in California. Since this is causing such confusion I'm going to edit it to be more specific

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we shouldn't be categorizing people on setting undefined records in something or another. Sports is rife with statistics and nearly every day someone sets a record in something. No doubt, you could add the oldest living folks as the holders of longest streak of not winning a motorcycle race, etc.

1635:

For the 5 articles you removed from "Sourpi" there was no edit summary, and no obvious reason for their removal. Why you did that, I have no idea, but it constitutes vandalism. However the main thing I'm saying that you didn't read my edit summaries, or, as seems more likely, purposefully ignored

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for now. I have strong doubts that any of these categories will get above 5 in this decade, but I cannot fully rule it out further in the future, but there is no reason to think they will grow unless a bunch more such venues are constructed, and there are no short term plans for such large scale

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of the United States (Northeast, Midwest, South, West) for cultural purposes, although they do have administrative powers and are undeniably the first-level administrative division. The 2010 Greek reform that renamed prefectures into regional units and split them into smaller ones, in the Athens

1873:

Alright at this point I will have to bring this in. I don't know who you asked, but, apart from Athens and Thessaloniki, there are no metropolitan areas in Greece, and the prefectures/regional units are nothing close to that. Ask one of them if Achaea/Aetoloacarnania/Arcadia could be considered

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states that gender-specific categories could be implemented where gender has a specific relation to the topic, but that every gender (e.g. female) category does not need to be balanced directly against a male category, especially when historically the vast majority of people associated with a

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Regarding references: Categories are based on the content of the articles. If something is doubted, the issue should be brought up for it to be sourced or removed from the article, then the category change follows. Regardless, I have added two references regarding her place of origin, so this

1403:

Regarding Arta, as I explained in the edit summaries (apparently nobody seems to read those, but they're quite useful), there was no decision regarding what would the structure should be, only a general "merge" decision. Essentially there was no final plan on what would happen. The merge was

1378:

in general, it clearly states "Vrangiana, Karditsa". For some reason that first word was ignored. In that case, if someone were to still be confused, they could simply read my relevant edit summary (the edit referred to in the rationale) where I responded to "only reference is Karditsa" with

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even more overcategization by award. Award categories should be limited to ones like the Nobel Prize, where saying that the person received the award is going to occur in even the shortest biographical sketches you can find on the person. Instead we have some people who have over 15 award

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There is no indication that the second person resided in Imathia, since it is possible to govern from Athens. It therefore makes no sense to remove him from the category where he was born and lived and add him to the category of the province for which he was appointed Governor.

709:. We don't need any categorization by insignificant crossroads, municipalities, neighborhoods, streets, and villages. These should be grouped into larger areas, sometimes called "regional units" in templates, although that is apparently also translated as "peripheral units". 1879:

option. It's crazy I have to go so far, like the other time I had to search government documents, but I guess we're reached that place. And I'm sorry to say that, but at this point I can't even trust that what you say is true, and that you actually consulted someone. --

1850:

example above with Chicago, Detroit, and San Diego.) So our upmerge target should be the Region, not the regional "unit". We can probably delete all of the regional units as they become empty. In any case, as has been confirmed by Rathfelder, most of these have no

1379:"Vrangiana, Karditsa. Vrangiana is in Acheloos.". I don't know what else to say to explain it. It's Greek geography. Last time I provided a government document to prove Vrangiana is in Acheloos. I don't know where this tendency to deny Greek geography comes from. 1926:

The nominator requests deletion of these three. That's very clear. The two articles need to be grouped into larger areas, probably "Greece". But we won't know until we've sorted out some of these tiny ones. The nominator is not participating in the "flame

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it is often not encyclopedic to include that something was leaked - leaks are often poorly sourced and this effectively promotes illegal activity (the leaking of copyright content). I can't fathom a reason to search for leaked material using categories. ≫

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With all three groups, the award is generally mentioned in passing so it doesn't seem defining and the diverse reasons for issuing the award creates a mish-mash of articles unlikely to aid navigation. There wasn't a list so I created one right

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Michigan at 96,716 mi² is somewhat bigger than Britain at 93,628 mi², and much bigger than Greece at 50,949 mi². Many folks still think Britain is the equal of France, although it is falling into disfavor after Brexit. I'm unsure how Greece is

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unless a better name can be found - and neither of the current suggestions cuts it. Clearly not all of these are murders, and homicides are also unlawful killings (and that's not even to mention the one, um, pachydermicide(?) article).

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the title as it is. Homicide is a narrower definition & murder even more so. This cat includes articles about lawful killings, including state executions & killings in military conflicts. It also includes accidental killings.

1718:. If 2 articles have been written since the start of Knowledge (XXG), it is unlikely that we will reach 5 articles any time soon, which means that the regional unit is a far better geographical level for a collection of biographies. 5506:

Rename to "Classical music eras" – that is the established scope of this category, but not made clear by the current name. "Classical music eras" is preferable to "Western classical music eras" due to us not using Western for the

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only one has more than 2 articles. We build categories up from the articles, not down from administrative boundaries. Karditsa is clearly an area big enough to have a reasonable number of articles. The others, apart from

1874:

anything close metropolitan areas. Because I was concerned about something like this happening, and since it's so obvious to a Greek person, but pretty hard to prove if the other party doesn't trust you, I asked a

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They are not villages they are larger units. Anyway, believe me that they do grow. We don't have to guess I see it happenning. And even if that weren't true, merging up to the regional unit is excessive.

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Being "leaked" is not a defining characteristic for an album. Prior to the move to standard worldwide release dates an album was available online prior to release due to the different in timezones. Per

1577:, attempted to delete various similar categories by removing articles from them for no reason (or factually incorrect reasons) and then tagging them as empty. He did this for these three but also for 2217:

The term killings is not the best creative term for this category and Homicides or Murders is the more used words for wikipedia categories and articles involving a killing of another human being.

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to match the article name. That may or may not be the best (although I know people who inisst Classical Music should be used for one sub-genre, and who if push came to shove would probably favor

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to match the article name. That may or may not be the best (although I know people who inisst Classical Music should be used for one sub-genre, and who if push came to shove would probably favor

1440:). The second person, as he has been governor of Imathia, he certainly belongs in that category too. Being "from" in Knowledge (XXG) categories is not limited to where people spent their youth. 998: 5441: 4642: 3807: 1905: 1901: 993: 509: 42: 37: 5389:, however that should be brought about by renaming discussion on the article, that is where we will gather the needed expertise and be able to balance the power of Commonname v. accuracy. 5260:, however that should be brought about by renaming discussion on the article, that is where we will gather the needed expertise and be able to balance the power of Commonname v. accuracy. 3508:". This is the case for businesspeople and people in health professions, also noting that we do not have any other male-only category for businessmen or health professions besides these. 3264: 2358:

Homicide is defined as "the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another". That would not apply to deaths in war (the fallen soldier) or non-humans (the elephant). So both

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While these places would have had more than five mayors in their history, most will be non-notable. No objection to recreating any if they ever get up to 5+ potential articles. -

4472:

This category contains biographical articles and individuals who set world records in motorcycling. It does not contain articles about the records themselves. I have moved it to

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Already tried that, was reverted both times. The only 2 people in these categories have no such references, so should be removed entirely, and these categories deleted as empty.

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says born and raised in California." doesn't make sense, since it isn't odd at all. The template can say "San Diego" and the article "California" with no contradiction. --

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was a Guatemalan diplomat) but both mention this award in passing so, whatever it was for, it doesn't seem defining. There wasn't a list so I created one right

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Multiple editors have tried to recategorize the articles under the parent municipality, and been reverted. Therefore, I'm proposing deletion without upmerging.

1677:

of a municipality, or small settlement, which no longer exists and of which she is the only member. This is not even where the article says she comes from.

1388:"an obsolete, no longer existing place": At first I had no idea what this was supposed to mean, but I think I understand. You probably went to the article " 4918: 4684: 21: 4262: 1404:

performed by a bot, which led to a buggy result. I changed the "o" in order not to fight with the bot. Again, everything is in those edit summaries. --

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That's why Homicides would be a perfect alternative to "killings" in this situation. And here we'll have a consensus with multiple incoming editors

1736:

Of the two articles one was written last month. I assure you that these categories are constantly growing. Last time were were discussing a merge of

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The first one has 1 entry, who was a mayor in Czechoslovakia, not in the Czech Republic. We need to be careful in how we apply this categorization.

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per Marcocapelle's suggestion. I'm somewhat surprised there's no Ker Avon article, but even if there were that would still only be three articles.

5827: 5652: 4756: 1526:, who has been documented subverting prior CfD decisions by recreating categories with unusual typography. And admits the deliberate action above. 4336:

We generally do not sort by region because they are not well-defined. The Waco, Beaumont, and Lubbock categories have less than five articles.

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suburb only, does not strip them from their status as the usual reference point by which Greek topics and Greek people would be identified.

5892: 5849: 5073:. However I see this is not the established convention (in some cases there are several contenders in the family for the category name, eg 4523: 4473: 4302: 3900: 2096:, just one, two or three articles in each of these categories and they are not part of a large overall accepted sub-categorization scheme. 1277: 5700: 5688: 4202: 2082: 1299:

Sadly, while national pride is understandable, much of what you've written is incorrect. You really don't seem to have grasped the scale.

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executive (or less) in stature, with 1/10th the population. In many cases, that is why upmerging to "(municipality)" may prove too small.

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for other reasons. Whatever the result of the other discussion, there is no need to merge any content to another occupational category.

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This is a very clear violation of our rules on categorization and gender. It is historically just a little less a violation than

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and then deleting it as empty. If someone read the article's template they would understand that it doesn't say she's

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and the only user in the category I nominated is already in that category so not sure if a merge is necessary at all.

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already does exist as a parent category. I do agree though that the category I created sounds a bit awkward. I was a

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which would be kept anyway - so even after upmerging of the other subcats it remains a pretty small-sized category.

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Each State is sovereign under the US Constitution, and the equal of France. Many are quite a bit bigger than France.

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contains only one or two articles, and they are about small villages, so they are very unlikely to grow that much.

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These 2 categories have 2 articles total and I'm not sure why either of the recipients actually received the

2284: 2207: 5074: 5065:- I have always found the naming convention in the family tree very unsatisfactory. As a parent category is 3221: 1389: 1249: 1191: 324: 5492: 4049: 5923: 5856: 5731: 5573: 5119: 5086: 5016: 4864: 4823: 4495: 4355: 3951: 3565: 3513: 3308: 3272: 2788: 2647: 2393: 2338: 2308: 2292: 2260: 2218: 2101: 1913: 1816: 1771: 1723: 1616:

opposition in 2 nominations. Moreover, if there are more such cases, I'll ask that this user be suspended.

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Category grouping images by author rather than by subject. Nothing to merge as all images are also in

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 15#Category:People frοm Arta (municipality)

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2020 December 6#Category:People from Fyli (municipality)

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A US census region would be more like Greece plus all the Balkans. Greece would be a tiny fraction.

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and the rename proposal is based on the name format for the other subcategories of that category.

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The first level administrative division of Michigan is the county. There are 83 Michigan counties.

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Civil Servants & Non-Nobles: Very few of these are actually in this category but architect

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tree, but from what I can see I think that this category is applied more judicially than that.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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building projects that would make these categories needed anytime before 2033 at the earliest.

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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2400:, and I had not read the categorization guidelines. Maybe we can come up with an alternative? 2379: 2334: 2304: 2288: 2139:

Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Wow this is a lot of stuff to read. But I haven't yet seen a serious objection to merging to

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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was intended for "civil servants, non-nobles, and foreigners" and includes the following:

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 28#Category:Music catalogues

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2021 February 5#Category:Pop-folk albums

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Moreover, any persons who have no references citing where they notably lived should

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As Acheloos is in Karditsa, and it seems we agree on that, then she does belong in

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You seem to be getting it. So saying "That is odd, the article <some person: -->

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2021 January 28#Category:Cardassians

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male and female scientists don't do "science" differently, and soon to be empty.

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As the creator of that category, this has already been discussed on my talk page

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France is also the political equivalent of a US state. A French department is an

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might be better, with the sub-categories left to clarify the type of "death".

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I'm not as familiar with every state, but France has a consulate in Michigan.

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Has no references saying where he was born or lived, but in parenthesis says

2483:"killings" does not require us to sort out the legal aspects of each death. 1670: 1371: 1073: 734: 5877:

Nobles: Despite the stated intent for non-nobles, recipients also included

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