Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 5

2515:. I did not participate in the earliest discussions but I found all of them deeply unconvincing, without investigating what the actual colleges used along with massive cherry-picking. "Faculty" for professors is perfectly common internationally and is not some strange American-ism. Further, while "ambiguousness" is cited, this ignores the fact that it introduces an entirely new ambiguity as has been pointed out before: "Faculty" means professors specifically, while "staff" is used more broadly to potentially mean anyone vaguely associated with the program, visiting professors, etc. For example, from Joy's links above, UBC (which does indeed have a single reference to "faculty" more as an organization, but one perfectly in keeping with this being a terminology for the professors) has 4001:(not changing vote to containerise) -- I would suggest that the first split should be to remove British Muslim and American Muslim politicians to their own categories and see what we have left. Politicians from Muslim majority countries will mostly be Muslims and should not need to be in this category, which should be limited (by a definition in a headnote) to countries where this is a minority religion, except cases like Muslim Brotherhood which is a Muslim party. If there are few cases in continental Europe we can have a European category, with the UK one as a subcat. 2244:-- European categories and those for former colonies have been renamed to reflect local usage (including cognate terms in French and Swedish). Any change needs to be dealt with on a country by country basis, with evidence of local usage. I suspect that Quebec will follow French usage, but what the rest of Canada (English-speaking) does requires evidence of local usage. Furthermore the list cited relates to Africa and Asia, not Oceania or South America (where the usage probably reflects that in Spain and Portugal, from which they were colonised. 5787:, Hungarians only made up 48% in 2001, for example; and urbanisation and other factors tend to favour a country's official or primary language in a city and its surroundings over the course of decades. I think linguistic categorisation of countries and territories should only be based on official language status to avoid endless maintenance issues and reliable sources disputes. You might want to give that nomination a look; you made or were involved with similar nominations in the past several years. Cheers, 2570:: these universities have a section called "Faculty" for professors (just as Knowledge (XXG) categories currently do), and they have a category called "Staff" for something else. I can see someone pro-move arguing that this ambiguity is less important than the ambiguity between departments and the professors meaning (which I disagree with), but to be clear, I am making my argument strictly on the sources given and on Canadian English usage. The non-equivalence of "faculty" and "staff" 2638:

University" category? These move requests have never spelled out whether they really are a scope change or not as best I can tell. (I will grant that if a scope change is really what's desired here, this will change the equation slightly, but if not, then what's the grounds for excluding such employees from "Academic Staff" when they are classed as such on official websites? For all that these people generally aren't notable anyway, of course.)

2681:"academic staff". (Many secretaries are working on (or have) advanced degrees, so I'm happy to include any notable secretaries within the scope.) Don't duplicate endless layers of heirarchy and niche titles that subsume university personnel. As a personal note, I've been active at various universities over the years, as anybody who checked my name might notice. Never as faculty, but I've more "pubs" than most full professors. 2547:

things in categorization. I don't see how it serves an average English reader well to push a categorization scheme that is so blatantly ambiguous. Granted, there could be some average English readers that will find the term 'academic staff' ambiguous as well because of the specific meaning found in parts of the US, but I think we need substantially more proof of their prevalence before prioritizing them over the others. --

2343:). Had US usage of "faculty" been standard in Canada, this would have argued for this being established in Canadian English and thus provided a strong argument for keeping it. However, the use of "faculty" to refer to academic staff is not generally established across Canada and does not match usage in many universities, so adopting the more international "academic staff" for Canada would appear appropriate. 2527:, also listed as a "pro" British usage example, also separating out "faculty" and "staff" as not equivalent. This separation is far more impactful and important than the harmless and unlikely confusion between "Faculty" as term for a department in general, so why are we trading one unlikely confusion for a potentially major ambiguity? And I still don't see this addressed about whether these categories are 4875: 2729: 700: 2407:, and probably more (I gave up on the infinite scroll after a while). Only a few of these, by and large from the Toronto area yet not consistently among Toronto institutions, seem to be using this in a way that might potentially be confusing to some readers. Also there was a link to an Athabasca University (Alberta) document that gave a 3683:-- A person's religion is likely to be a significant factor in how they behave politically. However what we have here is a potchpotch, mixing together politicians from radical (explicitly Muslim, even Islamiscist, parties) and democratic politicians in US and UK, in countries where Islam is a minority religion. Probably 4357:. All lists that currently only have 'cities' in their titles can remain unchanged until 'places' becomes more convenient for some reason. (I only just figured this out after taking a good look at related articles and categories, and this seems to me the most reasonable, sustainable and convenient solution). Cheers, 2311:, with "Academic staff" being more internationally comprehensible than either the British English "Academics" or the American English "Faculty". My only reservation was about extending this to Canada: Looking at a sample of Canadian universities, it appears that usage of "faculty" is split between British usage ( 4022:. Several people are included in this category without their religion being mentioned in their articles, probably on the basis on their name or their family origins in a Muslim country. I have removed a few the British politicians from this category, but while the category exists it may be an unending task. 2562:

good enough for the universities in question, what's the problem with mirroring that usage here? And... the ambiguity I'm talking about is taking these Canadian universities on their own terms, not because of a "specific meaning found in parts of the US." These Canadian universities offered as evidence

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to be a scope change to expand to "staff in general", or if it means "We're calling them Academic Staff, but we really mean just faculty." (Also, I'm not seeing tons of support for a split-by-region, but I'd offer an extra-strong oppose on Canada if it matters just because the usage there is clearly

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for a variety of reasons yesterday, including the fact that demographics change constantly, and reliable sources are often hard to come by. In the case of Ukraine, it has held only one countrywide census in 2001, so what the current situation in Berehove Raion is 22 years later is anyone's guess. In

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Suppose these categories are moved (as seems likely). Can you spell out what exactly should be in these "Academic staff" categories? For example, if an otherwise notable person is given a position as a secretary or administrative assistant at a college, should they be in the "Academic Staff of XYZ

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also illustrates the international issues here, as the use of "professors" to mean academic staff in general as opposed to only the most senior rank of academic staff is also an Americanism. In Britain, for example, we have lecturers, senior lecturers, readers and professors. All are academic staff,

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which seems to be useful for an overview of formal English usage. There's examples there from Australia, India, UK, Zimbabwe, Jamaica, Kenya, Ethiopia, Canada, South Africa, Malaysia, Ireland and elsewhere, that indicate this terminology is common there. Hopefully, this is also a relevant indication

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As the links show, the use of "faculty" is a cascading tab under either "Faculty and staff" or "Academic staff", demonstrating use of the word "staff" at the institution. Faculty is not the issue. The assertion was that "academic staff" was somehow forcing "British English" upon us. To the contrary,

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is the only region which has Russian as a co-official language. Given everything that is currently going on in that country, it is not expected that the Russian language will be granted official status in any other region of Ukraine within its internationally recognised sovereign territory in the

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Per the links given above, U Victoria & UBC (and many more, I'm sure) use the term "Faculty" to mean what it has traditionally meant on Knowledge (XXG): that of professors. Ergo, this use of faculty is not an American-only usage. This seems very straightforward and important to me: if it is

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The problem is that if we find clear evidence that both the University of British Columbia and the University of Victoria use the term faculty for both organizational units and for people, then that cannot be used as an argument that we should keep using the term faculty to mean only one of these

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yesterday; so far, Marcocapelle agreed to all three proposals and nobody else has objected. But I concede the points of Laurel here and William over there that it wasn't practical for me to nom this cat for merging into a cat that doesn't exist yet, making this nom dependent on the success of the

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While the real world behavior of insurance companies is quite controversial, I don't recall the Knowledge (XXG) categorization of insurance articles being contentious so I can't think of what administrative purpose is served here. And, besides, you can still find all these same categories under

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Even if (though) the US House of Representatives, or its media coverage, has the IMHO deplorable habit of sticking an infamy stamp on the forehead of its perceived minority members regardless of their actual political positions, I don't think this is either a general practice in the rest if the

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as Hebrew-speaking (so many that there is a locally famous park overpass allowing Orthodox to walk to temple on sabbath), or Russian-speaking, or Ukrainian-speaking (I grew up walking distance from both the Ukrainian and Polish cultural centers). Over time, people assimilate, children move for

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This discussion is about the specific regions listed. The practices of other regions are out of scope. Moreover, many notable people are associated their entire lives with a university, but are not "faculty" or a "professor". Professors, lecturers, researchers, and other professionals are all

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In some of the earlier CFDs, I looked at some international colleges and found them using "faculty" in the American sense. Perhaps that usage is outweighed by other considerations, but I stand by my statement that this is not an America-only usage as can be seen from a random sampling of

1972:. Faculty is ambiguous: it may well refer to an organizational unit of a university rather than to people. On the other hand academic staff is entirely clear. So far Europe, Africa and Asia have been changed. I have now nominated all remaining countries except the United States. 4352:

for navigational reasons). Reason: 'places' is a convenient catch-all term that makes separate lists and categories for countries and cities (or other administrative units) unnecessary. Lists that have 'places' in the title often include country name changes as well, such as

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per nom, as well as for the historical precedent of deleting these type of categories for places with a population of under 50,000. In this case there are less than 1,700 residents in Barbuda, so it is unlikely such a category could be used for collaboration.

2115:-violating expansion of British English to our worldwide academic categories now expands to North America. Per the precedent at previous discussions, there is no attempt to survey what the universities in these places actually call their professors. — 2588:

I don't know why you're ignoring the fact that they also use the term academic staff in the same meaning. Also, the proposal wouldn't make it so that we call 'faculty' just 'staff', but 'academic staff', which is again what they seem to do as well.

6036:— there are Russian speakers in every region of Unraine, legacy of the Russian Empire and the USSR, who also shot people in the streets for speaking Ukrainian. A few might now have a majority after Russian revanchists have ethnically cleansed them. 3701:

Re 'significant factor': political behaviour is significantly influenced by social class, occupation, level of education, or the decade people were born in, probably at least as much as by people's religion. And we probably would not categorize by

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as trivial, too many countries have changed name at least once in their history. Besides there is an element of ambiguity, a name change often happens when something else happens too, so is it still the same country after the name change? E.g.

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I do not know whether a Filipino category would be useful. The category intersection brings up members of parties there which are "influenced by Christian democracy and Islamic democracy." I suggest allowing such party categories to remain in

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While I am opposed to these needless changes (a vast amount of work for imperceptible gain), university staff would be either academic or non-academic. So faculty = academic staff, and staff = non-academic staff. So I don't perceive a scope

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were nordic vikings and spoke an antecedent of swedish. These are slavic-language documents of their subjects. The word was the root of "slave" in nordic, germanic, and enventually English languages. Best not to confuse them

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I'm relatively new to CfD, I hadn't foreseen this problem. In recent days I've begun making some notes on which categories to nom for CfD, CfR or CfM and in what order, to prevent dependence problems like this. Unlike with

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of vernacular usage. I'm happy to see that Robminchin's analysis confirms that Canadian examples were not merely an exception. Unless someone can provide a new coherent rationale why we should keep the existing scheme,

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per nom. Although "faculty" may well be the commonest term for academic staff in North America (unlike the rest of the world), it remains ambiguous and "academic staff" is fully understood and unambiguous. --

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But I would like to see an article on minority languages in Ukraine. The Stalinist population transfers were immense. The residual native speakers, in lands that they occupied for centuries, makes to

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But I would like to see an article on minority languages in Ukraine. The Stalinist population transfers were immense. The residual native speakers, in lands that they occupied for centuries, makes to

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But I would like to see an article on minority languages in Ukraine. The Stalinist population transfers were immense. The residual native speakers, in lands that they occupied for centuries, makes to

1952: 6549: 3817: 3611: 820: 463: 2803: 1912: 1310:. As others have replied and Laurel noted, this was paired with a previous nomination. It should never have been done separately. As I wrote then, such impatience may result in no consensus. 1969: 3821: 2388: 1965: 4748: 4225: 4882: 3616: 2736: 1352: 1270: 1236: 707: 5852:

for a variety of reasons yesterday, including constantly changing demographics and the need to focus on official language status instead; you might want to take a look at it. Cheers,

5849: 5779: 2881:. Overcategorization by temporary corporate raiders (the East India Company). Much of JLP work in categories is suspect, and there's some kind of restriction on futher work here. But 1258: 980: 39: 34: 848:

Thanks. I cannot understand why English specialists don't make a deal: we use always "organizations" or always "organisations". Such spelling discussions are really waste of time

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10 years ago when I created this category, I hadn't closely read the editing guidelines and was basing my category work off of what I saw other editors doing. So, when I created

806: 6017:, has only one item. (Edit) It's the only region in Ukraine where Russian has co-official status; this number is not expected to grow, so this category is not expected to grow. 2173:? The "globalists" (Doctors of Arts) use "Academic staff", and the administration (also PhDs) who hire professors, pay salaries, and govern departments are "Academic personnel". 2619:

only call the last category (the ones who actually are professors, or "full professors" in American parlance, and hold chairs, either personal or established) "professors". --

3813: 4344:, but rename the latter "Lists of renamed places" (we should keep all the contents for which there is no separate article yet, and I strongly prefer the country structure of 3790:

which is more clearly about political orientation. For Muslims who aren't in that subcategory there is clearly an unrelated intersection between religion and occupation.

5727:, the Hungarian language has no official status in these raions or anywhere else in Ukraine, and is not spoken by a majority in any raion or other territory in Ukraine. 3908: 3829: 3787: 4777: 786: 4528:. It is fair to say that every single country probably changed name in the course of its history, as none was called the way they are now in, say, paleolithic times. 1921: 4421:

PPPS: If we decided to listify (which could still be done regardless of what we do with this category and the other categories and lists), I suggest we start with

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Granted, currently only 1 person in each of Belgian, German, Norwegian and Swedish, 2 Canadian, 3 Finnish, and 5 Australian, but these have potential to grow. –

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Apologies, this was a copy-paste error. The link now directs to the intended list with Canada, Central America and the Caribbean, Oceania and South America.

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about the name changes ever show up. Categorizing whole nations by this is not defining. Listification suggested by Nederlandse Leeuw would also be good. -

1530: 5163:(which is about demographics, not official language status). The full list of countries is: Pakistan and India. That's it. That doesn't merit a category. 3840:

it and exclude sub-cats for Muslim-majority countries (deleted at the 2007 CFD linked above by the nominator), in a similar way to the exclusions at e.g.

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for Electroengineering and computer sciences, a distinct school under an university in many parts of the world and certainly in every Slavic language.--

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Whatever the wisdom of categorizing by language in general, there's a maintenance issue with this one since there is active population displacement. -

1091: 1239:, so Laurel Lodged has a fair point. You might better wait closing the discussion here until after that other discussion on the 12th has been closed. 4659: 2384: 2285: 1095: 798: 782: 778: 329: 296: 273: 2854:). Johnpacklambert sees no need for both categories and suggests that 'Emigrants from British India' is preferable over 'British India emigrants'. 3833: 2400: 147:, trivial intersection between gender and occupation of fictional characters. Fictional male detectives is not a notable topic in its own right. 4696: 1879:. I can't imagine relisting this is going to bring about any clearer consensus, so I'm closing this as rename in line with previous discussions. 5135: 4761: 4650: 3103: 3063: 3832:. Apart from those, I would support sub-categorisation by country at least where Muslims are a minority, because there it is newsworthy, e.g. 1935: 17: 5127: 2956: 1144:

you're not in a position to keep that promise since it is dependent on the success of another nomination. There's a procedural problem here.

794: 6315:- there's plenty of book sources that use the term. Not sure that we need a separate article though. This can be covered adequately in the 5751: 5018: 4322: 3523: 3172:. However, there are many categories on Knowledge (XXG) that focus on women, so perhaps there should be subcategories named something like 2799: 759: 573: 2404: 4816:. I agree it is like a PERFCAT, but the objection to these is that we get too many items; something what will probably not apply here. 1908: 268: 5699: 5691: 5118: 1367: 1266: 1254: 1112: 1024: 988: 969: 774: 5993: 5985: 1926: 5160: 4354: 471: 4228:. (I do have to say many Lists in it are unsourced). But I agree the current category is grouping items that aren't specific enough. 2412: 445: 5682: 1705: 626: 6214: 5976: 5305: 5494: 5313: 4503:

of cities that have undergone name changes, while this category just contains articles about countries themselves. So if we had

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article is unsourced and a Google search of "multi-sail windmill" turns up very little. Seems to be a confusing neologism.

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This category is for traditional windmills with more than four sails. It is not for Mediterranean windmills with jib sails.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2016_August_29#Category:Jewish_American_members_of_the_United_States_Congress

3173: 1330:, I'm also trying to work bottom-up rather than top-down now; it's a better way to set precedents for future noms. Cheers, 1098:. There should be a better way to get it into Kievan Rus' culture more directly. How can that happen if this nom proceeds? 6052: 5543: 5346: 1756: 1500: 164: 127: 123: 115: 3969: 3757: 3260: 2906: 6592: 6529:

While we're past the 6 month mark for speedy deletion at the author's request, I'd still like to clean up my mistake. -

6523: 4773: 4154: 3127: 3087: 111: 6642: 6446: 6418: 6167: 6139: 5936: 5908: 5642: 5614: 5445: 5417: 5349:, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. (+ Ah now I notice the two subcategories are nominated below.) 5256: 5228: 5078: 5050: 4906: 4859: 4610: 4582: 4101: 4073: 3495: 3467: 3366: 3338: 3016: 2988: 2760: 2713: 2408: 1864: 1836: 1666: 1638: 1451: 1177: 996: 965: 926: 898: 731: 684: 406: 378: 72: 6061: 6022: 5857: 5792: 5732: 5531: 5168: 4430: 4412: 4404: 4390: 4362: 4330: 4245: 4201: 3954: 3809: 3589: 3548: 3107: 3067: 2099: 1508: 1412: 1375: 1335: 1293: 1279: 1124: 1032: 1004: 992: 6210: 4546: 3841: 2959:

has a lot of subcats (mostly small - but possibly needing populating). All the people appear to be ethnic Indians.

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There have been a number of CFD nominations for the "Knowledge (XXG) categories named after"... tree, most recently

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preferably as nom or reverse merge. British India lasted nearly 200 years so that this is not merely temporary.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_February_23#Category:Student_religious_organizations_in_Denmark

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democratic world or a desirable defining factor for politicians categorization anyway. 20:46, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

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We don't do spurious nominations like this. None were tagged. Need a separate nomination after this concludes.

4808:. The 4 people named have produced art to decorate the Capitol and should be moved to a new category. Then 6115: 5884: 5590: 5393: 4821: 4483: 4349: 4337: 4205: 4006: 3692: 3409: 3314: 3142: 2964: 2249: 1149: 1103: 1047: 354: 292: 6500: 6290: 6618: 6099: 6057: 6018: 5853: 5788: 5759: 5728: 5551: 5527: 5354: 5187: 5164: 5026: 4835: 4708: 4533: 4462: 4426: 4408: 4386: 4358: 4241: 3950: 3877: 3795: 3742: 3719: 3671: 3646: 3443: 3297: 3223: 3158: 2267: 2095: 2062: 1977: 1808: 1764: 1596: 1408: 1385: 1371: 1331: 1289: 1275: 1244: 1188: 1120: 1055: 1028: 874: 869:

per nom. We had a huge discussion about the s/z spelling, but unfortunately it did not lead to consensus.

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so no information is being lost, just don't need every possible intersection with her other categories.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 13#Category:People associated with Stonehenge

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with thanks for the ping — unless somebody shows any actual work using this category that cannot use

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apart from American and British, this subcategorisation is going to lead to very tiny subcategories.

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ended with Delete, but the rest of the Jewish politicians hierarchy looks well populated. As we have

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Becomes empty if there is consensus for the nomination below. If that is not the case then merge to

4723: 4692: 6511: 5815: 5337:, has only 2 items, both of which I have just nominated for also being a SMALLCAT with only 1 item. 3513: 2297: 2138: 2116: 1996: 1778: 749: 556: 494: 449: 324:. Trivial intersection to be avoided without good reason (i.e. a separate article on the topic). 4019: 3946: 3581: 3215: 2608:"Faculty" for professors is perfectly common internationally and is not some strange American-ism. 2112: 225: 144: 6472: 6385: 6360: 6197: 6183: 6111: 5962: 5880: 5819: 5668: 5586: 5471: 5389: 5282: 5104: 4932: 4817: 4636: 4507:

to file here, then this would be an appropriate category for those lists, but it's not useful or

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 13#Category:Depictions of people on film

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_January_29#Academic_staff_in_Africa_and_Asia

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Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

4300:, poorly defined category, there are no articles about countries changing their name ...yet. 4122: 4096:

Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's

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Besides the category you created, this doesn't seem to be a common term though. We have no

5011: 4989: 4970: 4953: 4700: 4554: 4023: 3662:, a category that finds a connection between the presidents of Israel, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, 3617:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2019 August 4#Category:Politicians by religion

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subjects could identify in many ways, and often would not see a loyalty to the ruling polity

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_February_21#Category:Fictional_detectives

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four sails is a "multi-sailed windmill". The proposed rename is not an improvement, IMvHO.

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Virtually random, trivial category. "Siam" is called "Thailand", "Persia" is "Iran", etc. ―

3828:, it's useful to be able to navigate between that and other justifiable categories such as 2376: 1353:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_March_12#Category:East_Slavic_literature

1237:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_March_12#Category:East_Slavic_literature

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Oh I thought you would include this text here in the cyan box, but alright. Thanks again!

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_March_4#Category:East_Slavic_literature

981:

Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 4#Category:East Slavic literature

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These two categories seem to plainly be covering the same subject; no need to keep both.

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I don't see why a character's gender is nopt notable. It does nopt seem trivial to me.

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article that would have reliable off Knowledge (XXG) sources and ground this category

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 21#Politicians by religion

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Unique category name ("Modeling in Foo"). Redudant in Knowledge (XXG) category system

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Wondered why this "British English" falsehood is repeated, even after being debunked.

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Academic staff in Canada, Central America and the Caribbean, Oceania and South America

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intact windmills have more than 1 sail. But the category header explains the intent:

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Because many/most of them are not actually detectives, but are private investigators.

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we avoid gendered categories. This is not a special case where it should be allowed.

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Because they should be "women" and "men", but often that is not notable or defining.

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I also blindly created this one too. There was no intended purpose I had in mind.

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Knowledge (XXG):Categories_for_discussion/Log/2023_January_3#Academics_in_Europe

1796: 1534: 325: 167:? Both should be merged or neither merged. I am inclined to not merge either. -- 4478:. I note that Upper Volta, Ghana, Zaire, and a host of others do not appear. 3737:. The category should probably be kept but I agree that it looks out of place. 2324: 2196: 827:

listed these countries (using the other spelling) but did not tag the pages. –

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to solve the apparent confusion between topic category and individual people.

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