235:: This article was archived from FAC on 5 October with 2 supports, one weak support and no opposes. There was an outstanding image issue and a list of relatively minor issues unaddressed when the nominator apparently walked away. Has the image problem been cleared with Jappalang, who raised it? From the very few minor edits that have taken place since the archiving, it doesn't seem as though the list of points raised by Sarastro has been addressed either. Apart from a couple of tweaks, it looks as though the article stands exactly as it did when it was archived. As to
255:
takes the position that we need to answer every possible question about historical context in order to succeed at FAC, then a more general discussion about FAC standards for ship articles would be helpful. I'm wondering if we would have lost Benea as a contributor (she hasn't edited since
September) if we had had such a conversation the first time around, rather than putting the whole burden on her. At the time, I was too timid to say anything, and was thinking it was "not my job", but I should have said something. - Dank (
651:: It seems my previous comments are causing a bit of a fuss, so I apologise! As I said before, this is a really good piece of work and very enjoyable. My questions were mainly to see if any more detail was available to clarify some minor points, but if the information is not available, there is no problem at all. Several of my comments have been cleared up, these are the only ones outstanding.
743:. With this specific question; Elphinstone was promoted at some point to Post-Captain, which meant he would command a post ship that was rated, such as a frigate, and a sea officer with the rank of commander would took his place, but I don't know specifically what happened here. He's wasn't an important enough Elphinstone to warrant an entry in the Navy Biography book by James.
1163:(where it was argued that it might be beneficial for younger readers). I argued briefly against it but it seems to be a well-intentioned personal preference on the part of one editor. No particular policy was mentioned, but at the time it didn't seem worth holding a strong opinion about, as the trend seemed to be to put these conversions on many similar articles.
266:
copyright issue with an anonymous work that is pretty obviously from the early 19th century. Regarding
Sarastro's questions most seemed like minor things to me; as Dank said we can just leave those questions to this FAC review. However, one specific point; while some of Cochrane's exploits are fictionalized in the Hornblower series, its much more fiction than
1193:
I've re-lettered now, since it looks like the note is going to stay gone. I can't speak for the other reviewers, but I generally just let people argue these things for a while ... it's the only way to find out where everyone stands. I'm satisfied at this point that we don't want to give conversions
713:"...and then re-floated and sailed the four merchant vessels they had been escorting, which had run themselves aground to avoid capture, back out to sea under heavy musket fire from the beach." This seems like an afterthought. Would it be better to mention this before the capture of the French ships?
1228:
I would suggest changing "American War of
Independance" to "American Revolutionary War", which is a much more common name. I suspect that some might get confused and think it was some other war. I'm assuming here that "Revolutionary War" is also the more common name in the UK. If not, please ignore
254:
I'll leave the image issue to Kirk. On the question of
Sarastro's questions, I'd like for reviewers to make their own judgments about the relevance of those questions from the first FAC. If a reviewer says, "Yes, I'd really like to know about this and this", then we'll research it. If a reviewer
216:
Probably should address this first; Dank helped quite a bit with the copyediting of the article and volunteered to help with the nomination; Benea deserves all the credit but she hasn't been to
Knowledge (XXG) for 6 months, so I added her as a courtesy. My contributions are small but I'm sure I'll
1118:
That's fine, and I quite understand the arguments (I have done post-graduate level economics). It was not in the article originally but was included at another editor's insistence at some earlier review. My main aim to be sure is that this is something that isn't go to go back and forth one way or
1097:
and many others make the case that when you go back too far (maybe 1800-ish), there's no table you can use to give a conversion that makes any sense in today's pounds, because different things had a different value in relation to each other. So what we're doing currently at A-class is just not to
906:
The problem is that I don't want to mess with what Benea did unless we know there's a reason to mess with it, and some books are commonly known by one author. I know style manuals are generally fine with listing one author, but if this is usually the way it's done at FAC, I can make the change. -
265:
The image in question currently has a date of early 1800's, although the museum has it catalogued without a date. There's a possibility it was in a book with a better citation, and there's two or three images that could replace it at the top if we're so concerned with the outside possibility of a
1051:
Hi all, sorry to have been away. I'm back for a while now, and would be happy to use my sources, etc to bring this to a successful conclusion after the last nom petered out halfway through. As for
Fifelfoo, if this is a more general change in policy I'm happy to see the change, if not, please get
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I actually don't know whether "apparently warships attempting to attack a
British convoy" means they were apparently warships or apparently attempting to attack. I've ordered Henderson's book (Borders is going out of business and I'm getting it cheap), and I'll check this when it arrives. - Dank
891:
There's no rule that says you must do this, but it would make me oh so very peaches 'n cream happy if you would pretty pretty please change all the cites to reflect all authors, e.g. change "Adkins" to "Adkins & Adkins" or "Adkins and Adkins", ditto for "Colledge & Wardlow", "James &
1102:, which also links to a discussion at the Kenilworth Castle A-class review. It wouldn't bother me a bit to go with Fifelfoo's edit and just omit the conversion, although as Visionholder points out, if we do that, I'll have to re-number (re-letter?) the notes. - Dank (
841:
I don't blame you, I blame myself for not speaking up when I suspected Benea needed some help. On your questions, I've just bought one of the main sources (Henderson) and I'll have to wait for it to arrive; in the meantime, I'll ask for help at MILHIST. - Dank
1414:
The abbreviation "pdr" is only used twice; elsewhere it's "pounder". Any reason not to use "pounder" throughout? If it's a standard abbreviation I think it's OK but it should be defined on first use, and used more than once in the text in that
1030:
I'd really rather not oppose on grounds of original research and being incorrect in fact, which is why I quietly deleted the note using the cost of bread for wage earners in the 18th century to inflate the cost of light warship construction.
1279:"The gunboats were attempting to catch the Unity when Brenton took his ship through the flotilla, close enough to break many of their oars, maintaining a constant fire from his guns and with every spare member of the crew firing muskets."
195:
I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets the criteria. I was reviewing my contributions and I came across this article which I was surpised to find hadn't been promoted. I created this article a long time ago,
819:
As far as
Hornblower goes, a few of Cochranes actions were copied in the Hornblower books, but I'm afraid I don't have anything at hand to give examples and I imagine they are fictionalised enough to be irrelevant to this article.
512:
that says "5 cats and 32 dogs or five cats and thirty-two dogs" has proved to be almost impossible to follow in a consistent manner. But I believe that's the justification behind "12 merchant ships and 5 armed vessels". - Dank
1019:
Thanks kindly. Fifelfoo just removed note A in the last edit. But good news ... Benea is back, and she's fighting for the noteĀ :) This is a rather complex issue, and I'll look for some economics folks to help us out. - Dank
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803:
I feel the part about the
Intrepide is slightly too dramatic; rather than "a strange ship", why not simply say "the 6-gun privateer Interpide"? Or "a ship which emerged/turned out to be..." Feel free to disagree!
1216:
This is an extremely well written article. I have only three suggestions, and none of them is necessary for this to have my support. These are just ideas, and it's up to you whether or not you want to use them.
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was leading the first nomination but apparently it died due to neglect; the only thing I think that was holding it up before was the image, which I think is fixed. Let me know if you have any questions.
1483:
One more comment: isn't it the case that back then capturing a ship led to an award of prize money to the capturing crew? Should some mention be made of those amounts? Perhaps that's less relevant to
946:. This is an experiment to see if it makes the FAC easier to understand and navigate for the delegates, but if you don't like the effect, let me know and I'll move the comments back here.
939:
217:
have plenty before we're through the process and I believe the article is ready for promotion whether or not I get any credit for the nomination. We look forward to your comments.
1562:, and I have to say the article is overall excellent. It easily meets the FA criteria in my opinion and Cochrane's exploits in the ship make a damn good ripping yarn to boot.
417:
I looked into this & that's how the inflation template generates the number; I checked other FA articles and its the same...is that ok? I'm looking into the rest of these.
917:
Benea says on her talk page: "The references are the way I've always done them, and I'd be happy to see them left as they are, as my thoughts match your position." - Dank (
1286:
I'm sorry, we're constrained by style guidelines and style guides here that advise us not to replace the only two commas in the sentence by dashes or parentheses. - Dank (
761:"After Defender headed out to sea, Speedy ran in and anchored within 30 yards of the middle ship." Isn't this a little ... reckless?? If so, is it worth a comment?
1881:
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I'm fine with that if you want to add it, Benea. I was concerned that it would be slightly jarring to modern readers, but I often lose these battlesĀ :) - Dank (
1659:, Tony (at least, and others) has objected to them on many previous FACs, please find a way to replace them with something more visually appealing if possible.
40:
1133:
Apologies if I was brusque. Was the request at GA or MILHIST-A? If it was at MILHIST then I might go have some words on their policy pages about economics.
1713:
This seems very odd that we are actually reducing the accuracy and detail of the article based on the opinion that fractions are visually 'horrible'. The
1453:
Downman captured "a number of vessels" and "captured five privateers"; is the second just a repetition of the first? If so I would cut the first phrase.
1359:
It's Benea's call but I'm fine with it, since more readers will know the term "brig", and we try to reduce the effort needed to read the lead. - Dank (
502:
Nothing stood out when I checked - its pretty consistent about using written numbers of guns (six 12-pound guns), for example. Anything specific?
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I didn't suggest they be removed, rather rewritten without the clunky frac template, which distorts the text size. Can't you just write 21/94Ā ?
969:
There are two minor questions left on the talk page, neither of which should hold up promotion, so I am switching to support. A fine article.
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1638:
Thanks, that's what I think too. The images were reviewed in the last FAC so I think we have the required reviews and support for promotion.
1537:
Yes, crews were awarded prize money. The awards were
Gazetted, which means they are verifiable as to having occurred, but not the amounts.
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1467:"Eyre endured a harsh time in captivity": I would prefer "Eyre endured a harsh captivity"; it's the captivity, not the time, that is harsh.
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Do we know the name of the other merchant ship attacked by the gunboats off Algeciras? It may make that part slightly easier to follow.
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I got reverted by MJRoots. Not a lot I can do about it, Sandy, as long as SHIPS editors are adamant, and MOSNUM seems to require the
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has been repeatedly raised here. Template:Inflation bares a reasonably clear warning against using CPI to inflate capital goods.
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No, we should not change the image in the infobox. It is clearly PD and there has been no challenge on Commons as to its status.
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The citation style is somewhat clunky, with so much repeat info, but I 'spose it can't be opposed because it's consistent.
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Any particular reason why the ship is described as a brig in the lead but as a brig-sloop in the first sentence of the body?
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I haven't been able to determine that other than he was promoted to Post-Captain, retired as a Post-Captain and didn't die.
614:
Thanks for your support. FYI Reviewers: I'm going to be away until Monday, so don't expect any responses until next week.
1346:. Not much to quibble at; this is a fine article (and I laughed out loud at the description of Cochrane's capture of the
1237:
British writers generally favor "American War of Independence", "American Rebellion", or "War of American Independence".
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AFAIK, they mean two different things, Nikki, just like "1 inch" and "1.00 inches" mean two different things. - Dank (
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give a converted figure for older ships (and we're flexible on what "older" means). The best link I have for you is
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I never found a secondary source which connected a Hornblower-plot point with the Speedy but we can keep an eye out.
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Maybe you could wikilink "broken up" here. It's linked in the lead, but nowhere else in the article that I noticed.
332:
Okay, Kirk describes them as gunboats, so I've reworded to "gunboats apparently attempting to attack ...". - Dank (
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with a total length of 78Ā feet 3Ā inches (23.85Ā m). She was armed with fourteen 4-pounders and twelve Ā½-pounder
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Any details of the vessels she captured while blockading Genoa on her own? Presumably they were quite small.
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1577:. I can't see any issues that would prevent promotion. Some minor filling in of details could be done from
380:(please note that I haven't looked at the previous FAC, so I don't know what issues were previously raised)
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What is "flag rank"? "closing with them"? Be sure to explain unfamiliar terms for non-specialist readers
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I fiddled with this and replaced "flag rank" with Admiral of the Fleet; I reworded "closing with them".
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Any volunteers? I haven't heard back from the NMM - should we change the image in the infobox?
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This reads a little confusing. Maybe the section about the oars could be put into parenthesis?
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I really good article. I only found one issueāthe notes run from B to E... why not A to D? ā
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I would 3 p.m. to 3:00 p.m. but it doesn't sound like there's agreement. Other than that...?
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Not really, no...what if you did the same thing but on the other side (under the infobox)?
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Fair enough for all of these, if the information is not available it's not a problem. --
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Any more details of her early career out of Humber? What kind of role did she perform?
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239:, these were cleared by Ealdgyth and have not been changed since, as far as I can see.
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Reading quickly, I didn't see any military times, everything is a.m. and p.m. - Dank (
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When Eyre took over, was he still with Sutherland while part of the siege of Bastia?
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Yup, I thought that might be the case. I've never heard it worded that way before!-
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Great to see you back, Benea. Fifelfoo has a point ... and not only about the
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I tried something different here - does this look better than the sandwich?
1194:(CPI or otherwise) to present value for older ships, castles, etc. - Dank (
459:"giving a complimentary report of Cockburn to take to Hood" - giving who?
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Knowledge (XXG):WikiProject Military history/Assessment/HMS Speedy (1782)
1052:
this sorted out at a higher level and not make this article a test case.
856:
I think I addressed most of these points...let me know what you think.
292:
I sent an e-mail about the image in question. I did find it in a book,
274:, while the Hotspur is a sloop that's about it as far as simliarity to
1337:
Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates/HMS_Speedy_(1782)/archive2
658:
I doubt there are any, but I'm working on getting a copy of Winfield.
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Chamier" and any others. Meanwhile, "Lavery" in cites but not refs.
491:"at dawn on 6 May" - could you remind the reader what year this is?
39:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
1558:. I looked at this after seeing Mike Christie's recommendation
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was so named to symbolise this new approach, and measured 207
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Why is "Tons" capitalized? Is this standard in ship articles?
739:
I added a note about which rank would command a sloop such as
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Nelson Against Napoleon: From the Nile to Copenhagen 1798-1801
733:
What happened to Elphinstone; i.e. why did Dowman take over?
600:
Ok I believe I fixed all of these. Thanks for your review.
583:
Be consistent in whether you provide publisher locations.
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I figured out the number conversion and put it in a note.
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I changed it to tons - its not capitalized in the source.
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I should be around for the duration of this FAC. - Dank (
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505:"5 armed vessels". Also, use a consistent time format.
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than to the men commanding her, but I thought I'd ask.
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Featured article candidates/HMS Speedy (1782)/archive2
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873:
Everything seems good now, so switched to support. --
296:, ed. Robert Gardiner, page 77, no date or creator.
533:
Okay, but also need to look for 1 a.m. vs 1:00 a.m.
1119:the other and may lead to reviews being scuppered.
1857:The above discussion is preserved as an archive.
1835:Does anyone have a script to add nbsp's? - Dank (
508:Personally, I'm with you, Nikki ... the part of
431:Is "as of 2011" better? I'll try that. - Dank (
41:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates
1585:, but the article is ready for promotion IMHO.
270:. I think Sarastro was referring specifically
43:. No further edits should be made to this page.
1824:I'm very much with Sandy on this one. - Dank (
716:I redid this - Dank, can you check this over?
499:Be consistent in when numbers are spelled out
1863:No further edits should be made to this page.
1426:OK; I also fixed the example in the infobox.
342:Sorry, I forgot to mention I reworded this.
29:The following is an archived discussion of a
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705:"Having silenced the shore battery..." How?
1366:I thought it might be something like that.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates
942:on FAC talk, I have posted my comments to
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1880:was invoked but never defined (see the
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666:The source doesn't specify any details.
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719:Did some copyediting on this. - Dank (
385:Avoid sandwiching text between images
1698:, and carried a complement of 90 men.
483:"30 yards" - what is this in metric?
394:Under the infobox - how's that look?
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1846:Shimgray got them. Thanks! - Dank (
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1717:is simply expressed as a fraction.
1234:From our article of the same name:
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1876:Cite error: The named reference
674:It sounds like he was with Hood.
1806:There are other Royal Navies.
807:"Strange" was removed. - Dank (
1515:Note: I have supported above.
1:
938:. Switched to support. Per
783:As above, not a problem. --
278:goes. I hope this helps!
31:featured article nomination
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272:Hornblower and the Hotspur
1715:Builder's Old Measurement
1703:Got 'em, thanks. - Dank (
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1860:Please do not modify it.
36:Please do not modify it.
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647:Comments, inclined to
1419:Oops, fixed. - Dank (
1067:The incorrect use of
56:19:13, 26 March 2011
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772:Not that I can find.
268:Master and Commander
1804:British Royal Navy?
1272:Downman and Brenton
467:Petrel or Peterel?
364:, mostly on prose.
1766:template. - Dank (
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144:Citation bot
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1802:Can it say
1696:swivel guns
1335:Moved from
1093:template.
894:GlitchCraft
585:Nikkimaria
535:Nikkimaria
510:WP:ORDINAL
366:Nikkimaria
1882:help page
1579:The Times
1089:inflation
995:Comments:
940:this note
875:Sarastro1
822:Sarastro1
785:Sarastro1
687:Sarastro1
462:Reworded.
1878:Winfield
1657:horrible
1581:and the
1567:Fatuorum
1525:contribs
1502:contribs
1436:contribs
1376:contribs
1344:Comments
1242:- Dank (
1135:Fifelfoo
1100:this one
1073:Fifelfoo
1033:Fifelfoo
993:Support
979:contribs
956:contribs
936:Comments
889:Comments
470:Peterel.
378:Comments
139:Analysis
50:promoted
1810:Georgia
1789:Georgia
1735:Georgia
1663:Georgia
1626:Mjroots
1587:Mjroots
1575:Support
1564:Malleus
1556:Support
1539:Mjroots
1529:library
1506:library
1440:library
1380:library
1214:Support
1049:Comment
983:library
960:library
933:Support
649:Support
362:Support
237:sources
233:Comment
131:Toolbox
89:protect
84:history
1678:Speedy
1486:Speedy
907:Dank (
741:Speedy
597:Fixed.
494:Fixed.
486:Fixed.
276:Speedy
185:Dank (
93:delete
1808:Sandy
1787:Sandy
1733:Sandy
1719:Benea
1690:tons
1661:Sandy
1415:case.
1306:RHM22
1253:RHM22
1165:Benea
1121:Benea
1054:Benea
1008:talk
198:Benea
175:Benea
110:views
102:watch
98:links
16:<
1815:Talk
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106:logs
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76:edit
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