1933:'The song begins with a ten measure intro, using delayed triplets to create a sense of acceleration. Splitting the intro into three phrases, its illusion of acceleration is reinforced by a shortened third phrase which quickens the first verse's arrival, anticipating an effect McCartney uses in his late-1965 composition "We Can Work It Out".' This is not an area I know much about, so please pardon my ignorance. I know what a triplet is, but what's a delayed triplet? Having just listened to the intro, I can hear that it's in three phrases; I think we can say that more simply. And do we need both "sense of acceleration" and "illusion of acceleration" so close to each other? How about "The song begins with a ten measure intro, split into three phrases that use delayed triplets to create a sense of acceleration, reinforced by a shortened third phrase which quickens the first verse's arrival. McCartney used the effect again later that year in "We Can Work It Out".'
1960:"Like other Beatles songs, a triplet repeat signals the end of the song – though it differs in using an eight bar chorus rather than only two or four measures": this looks like a typo to me; it's not a triplet repeat -- the source is referring to the fact that the chorus line is repeated three times. I can see you're having trouble rephrasing this to avoid close paraphrasing, but as you have it you're not really representing the source accurately -- his point is that the line that is repeated is eight bars, which is "rather unprecedented" -- almost unparaphraseable, in fact. Sounds like he can't think of another case where the Beatles did this but doesn't want to go out on a limb and say so. You could say that this is rare, or unusual, or something like that.
2136:"After signing with Capitol in 1965, the progressive bluegrass band the Dillards recorded a cover of the song. Done between the British release of Help! and the North American release of Rubber Soul, the band hoped to issue the song in the US before the Beatles, though the recording went unreleased." Do we care when the Dillards signed with Capitol? The important point is the timing of the releases; if we drop the opening clause we could simplify this to "The progressive bluegrass band the Dillards recorded a cover of the song between the British release of Help! and the North American release of Rubber Soul; they had hoped to issue the song in the US before the Beatles, though the recording went unreleased."
1975:
possible. Then re-adding the source attributions in line might result in a smoother flow. Do we really need all the attributions, by the way? The reader can find out who said what by looking at the sources, so it might be better to just start with "The composition fuses several different styles and is difficult to categorise", and so on. I know nothing about
Beatles scholarship, so perhaps some of these musicologists are important to readers and should be named inline, of course.
859:. I haven't been able to get my hands on an actual original copy of the magazine, nor have I found a digitized version online, so I have not been able to supply the actual page-range of the piece. I do realize now though that I titled it incorrectly: "I Don't Like All This Dribblin' Pop-opera-jazz. I Like POP Records" was what it said on the magazine's cover, while the piece's title was "Lennon/McCartney Songalong: Who Wrote What". Also,
2020:'Opening with "I've Just Seen a Face" reinforced perceptions of the album as a folk or folk rock centred LP, causing it to be more conceptually unified while also distorting the band's late-1965 creative developments and their original artistic intentions': there are several thoughts packed into this sentence, and I think they could be organized better. How about 'Opening with "I've Just Seen a Face" gave
883:
I have to admit that I'm not super comfortable with its use as a source given that all we have access to is a plain-text archive, which doesn't identify the page. Since it's used only once and in addition to other sources making the same claim, is it necessary to keep it? (Also, letting you know that
835:
composition to determine "how much was written by who". As one of the few instances where Lennon comments on the composition of nearly every Lennon–McCartney song, it has proven to be a useful primary source for researchers; take for example historian Erin
Torkelson Weber, who uses it in her research
596:
Other than those points, the article looks good to me. I supported the first FAC, although I understood the opposition as this article has to balance out a large amount of coverage, which is understandable given the attention the
Beatles had and continue to receive. I usually work on much, much more
1974:
problem. You have done some work to vary the rhythm, but the two paragraphs together still have a listy feel. You might try writing this without any reference to which critic said what, so that you get a paragraph that simply tells the reader what these critics think, and make that as readable as
1937:
This is my very confused wording based on Riley's description. What he says is that the "rhythmic impulses of the intro are half what they are during the rest of the song", and that, rather than beginning with an established rhythm, it "glides into the swing by delaying it with triplet motion." (p.
263:
and the various authors in the first part of the sentence; in my research, I've found that the three songs being recorded on the same day is one of the most discussed aspects of its recording. Lastly, for note 8, I think it is important because it discusses how folk rock enthusiasts reacted to the
1979:
Agreed. The opening line was originally written as you suggested, but you'll see at the top of the FAC that another editor suggested I ought to include the by-line. I think I'd prefer your style/the original though, since it improves the flow of the text. I've rewritten this entire section as you
1730:
The first part of the sentence says: "This recording consists of two backing tracks: Harrison's acoustic twelve-string, probably Lennon's Framus ('Guitar I,'...)...". It took me a while to understand what this was saying. I initially thought it meant
Harrison played an acoustic twelve-string and
1667:
I've fixed this up. Here's 280: "The
Beatles returned to the studio on February 15 for six straight days of work on the new soundtrack.... Of the eleven songs taped during this week, ..." I've also added page 296 and 304–305 to the citation, since 296 says, "the Beatles rushed to the studios on
1735:
an acoustic twelve-string, and as far as I knew, Lennon's was the only acoustic twelve-string in the band's possession at that time. I actually emailed Walter
Everett a few months ago for clarification. He explained that the part of the sentence I quoted above is actually only talking about one
1672:" and pages 304–305 lay out the album's track listing, while also stating "he final contents for the British LP featured film songs on Side 1 and others on Side 2". This makes it clear that six of the seven songs recorded for the film were done during the week in mid-February '65.
259:'s other comparisons, but I find the other notes helpful. In particular, I think notes 1 and 2 detail information that a reader would end up having to research on their own if not supplied in the note, something I think is especially true of note 2. Note 4 adds to the comments of
1149:. Since there's no print version, I'm wondering if WorldCat would include an entry. I did a bit more digging and see that they actually own the publisher, Open Your Books, originally known as 44.1 Productions. I'm not sure if this makes the source self-published.
936:
The article is sourced to high-quality sources that meet the FACR criteria. During the previous FAC, the nom received the advice to tone down the number of sources, therefore I've not attempted to find additional sources that could be used or be cited.
2140:
Yes, that's fair. I presume it's relevant because it explains how the
Dillards had access to the song before the wider American audience, though the source doesn't say that outright and so would be speculation on my part. I've switched it to your
2028:
This is a rather important sentence since it's one of the things almost all sources are first to discuss when the song comes up, so I really want to get it right. I like your version a lot better, since it provides a more logical flow to the
2010:'Pollack mentions "stumbling" used in the outro, such as McCartney's added "oh!", as further contributing to the effect of falling.' Another difficult one -- I can see you're trying to avoid close paraphrasing but this is awkwardly phrased.
1246:
550:
400:
became my favorite record – I couldn't even decide which version I loved more, since 'Drive My Car' was the funniest song ever, while 'I've Just Seen a Face' was the most romantic, except almost as funny as 'Drive My
1131:
The original version was published in 2000 by 44.1 Productions in
Chesterfield, MO, while the "Remastered" edition was published in 2018 by Open Your Books in Chesterfield, MO. I've used the 2018 edition.
295:"The recording fuses country and western with several musical genres" - this reads like C&W is not itself a musical genre, so should probably be "The recording fuses country and western with several
2024:
more conceptual unity, which reinforced perceptions of it as a folk or folk rock centred LP, at the cost of distorting the band's late-1965 creative developments and their original artistic intentions'?
712:, was originally published in 1994, but I've used the third edition, published in 2007, hence "MacDonald, Ian (2007) ". Should I be using more specificity or just drop using the parameter all together?
742:, where the content changes. Off-wiki I don't remember seeing reference to the year of the first edition when subsquent editions are cited. So I would suggest dropping the parameter all together, yes.
412:" He has played the song live on several other occasions, including it in the setlist of his 1991 UK "Surprise Gigs" tour, his 2004 Summer Tour and the 2011–12 On the Run tour, and was included" =: -->
1030:
1938:
148) So not at all what I wrote. I've reworded it based off your suggestion, altering it to avoid the incorrect use of "delayed triplet" to instead write: {"The song begins with a ten
583:
The quote box in the "Release" section is rather narrow and at least in my browser, cuts into the next section. I believe it would be helpful to make it somewhat wider to avoid that.
413:" He has played the song live on several other occasions, including it in the setlist of his 1991 UK "Surprise Gigs" tour, his 2004 Summer Tour and the 2011–12 On the Run tour, and
597:
obscure songs so I have never run into this challenge myself lol. I am glad that discussions took place on the article's talk page after the first FAC. Best of luck with this FAC!
2090:
describes "Face" as "an up-tempo shuffler" made up of a "chugging, railroad rhythm" reminiscent of country & western. That's all he says about it. Richard Green's review of
549:
Although I am currently taking an extended break from
Knowledge (XXG) (for both reviews and my own projects), I still feel obligated to review this FAC since I participated in
2080:). The reviews that did appear offered little in the way of actual criticism and instead only served as track-by-track descriptions. For example, Derek Johnson's review of
906:
in 1980 where he provided the exact same information, crediting the song entirely to McCartney. That interview is much more easily referenced, so I've removed Smith 1972.
2062:"The album was similarly a commercial success and, according to Gould, served to attract folk-music enthusiasts towards pop music": what does "similarly" mean here?
2174:! I especially appreciate your thoroughness in the composition subsection, since it helped clear up some errors that slipped through early in the writing process.
1340:
1736:
guitar, and what it's saying is that
Harrison borrowed Lennon's guitar for the recording. When I reread the paragraph with that in mind, it made way more sense.
143:
96:
40:
1121:
1589:
37 Nitpicking here, but the use of « suggests » take a slight liberty with the source material, which does not seem to connect these two things this clearly.
785:
I'm already leaving this comment since I assume it may require a bit of research: do we have a page number for Smith 1972? And who is Alan Smith by the way?
1173:
That's interesting, thanks for taking a look. In that case, I think it's probably be self-published. Is it necessary to keep it or could you do without?
576:
I did it to save space in the infobox, but have used "country and western" everywhere else since that's what the sources use. Changed "&" to "and".
734:
2035:
That takes me down to the end of the "Release" section; I'm out of time for the moment but should be able to finish the review tonight or tomorrow.
2014:
It doesn't feel like that important a point, at least not as important as the other mention of "falling" in the composition section, so I've cut it.
2225:
1964:
Yes, triplets on the brain, I guess. Should be "triple" as you mention. I split this bit into two sentences. I've partially quoted Pollack instead.
30:
17:
852:
191:. Both "of" and "on" sound fine to my ear, but I'm not especially confident in these sorts of subtleties, so I've changed it per your suggestion.
732:
My understanding is that this parameter should be used for a re-publication of the same work. For instance, if Classic Books Inc. republishes
1946:
that are slower than the rest of the song to create a sense of acceleration, reinforced by a shortened third phrase which quickens the first
557:, but I have a much firmer grasp on song articles both in the FAC/FA context and Knowledge (XXG) as a whole. I hope my comments are helpful:
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1923:"McCartney was guided by the need to apply a renewed focus": is "guided" the right word here? Seems like "motivated" would be more apt.
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884:
this is the only source I have "quality" issues with at the moment, all the sources I have checked seem fine, but more on this later)
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Would you have a hyperlink establishing the existence of this version? I can't find it on my own (probably missed something).
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Maybe one question as I'm doing this: could you please explain your use of the |orig-year= parameter? I'm a little confused.
65:
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Sounds good. If only this book had gotten to FAC and its rigorous copyediting, we probably wouldn't have had this problem.
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that information. It's not the biggest loss in the world, so I'm fine with removing it as a source to avoid the headache.
1504:
23.g. Shouldn’t it be specified that Riley refers to the 1976 live album rather than Rockshow? Or am I missing something?
1395:
It seems like both are acceptable, since we have a 1976 publication date at the bottom of the page. Whatever you prefer.
2251:
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I see now that Riley isn't directly referring to either the album of the film, but instead the tour in general, so I've
1004:
link is titled incorrectly. The actual content is from vol. 2 (note the top mentions "Original text from: Keith Badman.
1370:
You didn't mention it above, but I think Castleman & Podrazik was actually published in 1976, not 1975, as per its
2077:
815:
264:
album immediately after a discussion of how the opening track reinforced perceptions of album as folk/folk rock.
385:"He judges the song the "most romantic "" - the literal most romantic song of all time? Or just by the Beatles?
122:, and most people today know it from there, but its first release in North America came as the opening track of
1325:
Womack 2009: Are we sure that Womack is the author of the discography? His name doesn’t seem to appear as such.
2066:
I think it's leftover from a previous iteration of the page when things were worded differently. Cut the word.
1300:
indicates the publisher is actually Palgrave Macmillan, an imprint of Springer Nature, so I've changed it to
152:: NFURs look good, song length is appropriate, images on Commons look good. Good luck with your nominiation!
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didn't even have the same songs – it began with 'Drive My Car' instead of 'I've Just Seen a Face.' But
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I've only linked the first instances of publishers. Should I be linking them every time where able?
841:
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I've used it to refer to the date the book was first published. For example, Ian MacDonald's book,
2229:
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I couldn't figure out how to resolve it while keeping both the quote box and the infobox, so I've
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in 2022, we would have |year=2022 and |orig-year=1748. I don't think |orig-year= is suitable for
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330:"Beginning in a minor key" - earlier you said it was in A major? Does that mean it's only
1943:
1873:
1078:
Kot 2006, regarding “Sawyers, June Skinner”. Are we sure that Skinner is the middle name?
2228:
has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see
1145:
The "Remastered" edition was released only as an e-Book, being directly sold from their
1918:
I'm copyediting a little as I read through; please revert anything you disagree with.
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Ah, good point. The table of contents doesn't list a name for the contribution either.
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1947:
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It's the only source which provides explicit dates for performances, so I've had to
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i think so, yes, as—if i'm not mistaken—consistency is more important than OVERLINK.
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is divided. Also the link seems to go to a book published by a different publisher.
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issue in the Charles River Valley Boys section. Please remove this issue. Cheers.
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215:
A lot of the notes are unnecessary in my opinion, providing unnecessary detail.
124:
105:
57:
53:
814:), a British music publication which was a much bigger deal back in the 1960s (
1869:
260:
433:"Produced by Rothchild and co-produced by Peter K. Siegel" - who's Rothchild?
199:
The composition fuses several different styles and is difficult to categorise
1731:
Lennon played a Framus. That didn't make much sense to me, since the Framus
1046:
Davies 2019: It might be useful to keep the |orig-date=2016 parameter since
616:, it's very kind of you to return from your Wiki-break for this nomination.
831:
magazine, including an extended part where he and Lennon went over every
822:
569:. I would be consistent with one way or the other to avoid any confusion.
256:
233:
To be specific: I think notes 1, 2, 4, 8, and maybe 9 are purely excess.
2147:
That's it for this pass; only a couple of minor points outstanding now.
345:, which ties in with Pollack's comparison of the intro to "Help!" I've
2076:
In short, rock music criticism didn't really exist in 1965 (refer to
39:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
201:→ "According to musicologist Alan W. Pollack, the composition ..."
118:
1146:
1950:'s arrival. McCartney used the effect again later that year in "
847:
Smith's extended interview with Lennon has been uploaded to the
760:
Ah, I see, that makes sense. I've gone ahead and removed them.
2086:
806:
1085:
The copyright page lists her as "Sawyer, June Skinner, 1957–"
1980:
suggested and I'm happy with the result. What do you think?
356:"Music critic Richie Unterberger writes the song has" =: -->
357:"Music critic Richie Unterberger writes that the song has"
1120:
Madinger & Easter 2018. Can you check the publisher?
993:
Badman 2001Â : The link goes to the Vol. 1 not the Vol. 2.
2072:
Why is there nothing on contemporary critical reception?
1092:
Lewisohn 1988: Looks like the publisher is Harmony Books
1006:
The Beatles Diary Volume 2: After The Break-Up 1970-2001
902:
It's not really necessary. Lennon had an interview with
553:. As I have said there, I have very little knowledge of
1887:
1597:
1512:
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961:
Some publishers are linked, some not. Please harmonize.
863:
on AbeBooks indicates it was issue 91 of the magazine.
346:
252:
1267:
Shef 2000. Meantion |orig-date=1981 seems appropriate.
315:""I've Just Seen a Face" is the key of A major" =: -->
392:
The former. This is what he writes: "This edition of
2100:is similarly shallow. Regarding the US release of
371:"McCartney later described the them" - "the them"?
316:""I've Just Seen a Face" is in the key of A major"
2270:The above discussion is preserved as an archive.
1454:22:09, 14 January 2022 (UTC) No issues detected.
1942:intro. Split into three phrases, the intro uses
1071:I used the 3rd edition, so I've fixed this link.
450:"writing its use of a pedal steel guitar" =: -->
116:. It first appeared in August 1965 on the album
41:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates
43:. No further edits should be made to this page.
1970:The "Genre" section suffers a little from the
465:"Kruth suggests the finished recording" =: -->
451:"writing that its use of a pedal steel guitar"
2276:No further edits should be made to this page.
2242:template in place on the talk page until the
1245:O’Grady 2008 : Farnham seems to be incorect.
29:The following is an archived discussion of a
8:
1106:Lewisohn 2000: Let’s specify |orig-date=1992
825:was published in the February 1972 issue of
671:Doing... Should be done by early next week.
466:"Kruth suggests that the finished recording"
644:this FAC for promotion based on the prose.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates
1723:22f Can you give me a quote for Harrison?
840:" (the interview is mentioned on p. 95 of
480:That's what I got on a first pass..... --
1311:Wagner 2008: Same comment as O’Grady 2008
735:An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
1515:how it's incorporated into the article.
1281:Turner 2016. Are we sure the wikilnk is
561:This is a nitpick, but the infobox uses
1413:Okay, I'll stick with the 1976 dating.
640:Thank you for addressing everything. I
341:The song begins slightly away from the
1064:Ingham 2009: Link goes to 2nd edition.
1890:the quotation into the text. Thanks.
590:I bumped up the width from 25 to 30%.
7:
1668:April 13 to recorded Lennon's 'Help!
565:while the lead and the article use
349:that part to clarify the situation.
1660:12 Can you please give me a quote?
1341:The publishing house is Greenwood.
1029:Courrier 2008: Should be 2009 per
817:). An interview he conducted with
24:
1796:Last one for the road : 124a ok.
804:Alan Smith is a former editor of
71:
104:This article is about a song by
1287:Springer Science+Business Media
1260:gives Aldershot as well. Fixed.
1057:Added orig-year and fixed link.
2116:seem to have mentioned "Face".
1:
2126:edits to initial letter-case.
1231:Miles 1998: The year is 1997.
1015:Baur 2017: Lacks a page range
654:14:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
632:13:17, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
539:16:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
243:20:49, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
225:20:43, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
166:22:20, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
144:15:55, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
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2001:12:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
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951:22:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
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879:21:32, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
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756:16:50, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
728:14:32, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
703:14:24, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
685:10:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
607:19:41, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
518:17:54, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
490:16:48, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
280:17:25, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
2237:featured article candidates
1914:Comments from Mike Christie
172:Comments from Therapyisgood
31:featured article nomination
2293:
290:Comments from ChrisTheDude
2078:this talk page discussion
187:Thanks for the comments,
2273:Please do not modify it.
844:and is cited on p. 229).
180:→ "on the December 1965"
36:Please do not modify it.
2057:Continuing the review:
1124:gives a different one.
710:Revolution in the Head
563:country & western
73:I've Just Seen a Face
662:Source review - pass
178:of the December 1965
2122:I made a couple of
1437:"Citations" section
1283:Springer Publishing
1249:gives me Aldershot.
982:All are now linked.
836:on the origins of "
812:New Musical Express
740:subsequent editions
667:Preliminary remarks
567:country and western
545:Support from Aoba47
2170:Thanks very much,
1952:We Can Work It Out
1814:Source check is a
1302:Palgrave Macmillan
1238:Nice catch. Fixed.
64:) 5 February 2022
2130:Much appreciated.
1596:Agreed. How does
956:"Sources" section
498:Thanks very much
441:Paul A. Rothchild
100:
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2232:, and leave the
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1927:Agreed. Changed.
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255:note 9, with
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235:Therapyisgood
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2222:Closing note
2221:
2195:
2194:
2177:
2146:
2135:
2121:
2111:
2105:
2101:
2095:
2091:
2085:
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2071:
2061:
2056:
2034:
2021:
2019:
2009:
1969:
1959:
1932:
1922:
1917:
1893:
1888:incorporated
1866:MOS:SANDWICH
1859:Drive-by CPA
1840:
1821:
1815:
1813:
1799:
1795:
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1005:
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763:
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739:
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619:
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548:
531:ChrisTheDude
526:
505:
500:ChrisTheDude
482:ChrisTheDude
415:
414:
397:
393:
331:
297:
296:
267:
198:
177:
150:Image review
149:
131:
123:
117:
103:
84:
80:
49:
47:
35:
28:
2124:MOS:CONFORM
2102:Rubber Soul
2022:Rubber Soul
1864:There is a
1837:Thank you!
1586:Gould 2007
1495:Riley 2002
1473:Spot checks
828:Hit Parader
819:John Lennon
555:the Beatles
398:Rubber Soul
394:Rubber Soul
334:in A major?
155:Sennecaster
125:Rubber Soul
106:the Beatles
2104:, neither
1972:"A said B"
261:John Kruth
2230:WP:FAC/ar
2226:candidate
2107:Billboard
2029:sentence.
1477:Doing...
1441:Doing...
861:this copy
2224:: This
2208:contribs
2157:contribs
2141:wording.
2113:Cash Box
2045:contribs
1993:contribs
1944:triplets
1783:Polack
1285:and not
1247:Worldcat
1122:Worldcat
1048:Worldcat
1031:Worldcat
842:her book
823:Yoko Ono
443:. Fixed.
347:reworded
343:home key
257:Greg Kot
208:Changed.
50:promoted
2212:library
2196:Support
2179:Tkbrett
2161:library
2049:library
1997:library
1940:measure
1895:Tkbrett
1842:Tkbrett
1822:JBchrch
1800:JBchrch
1764:JBchrch
1741:Tkbrett
1700:JBchrch
1677:Tkbrett
1628:JBchrch
1605:Tkbrett
1550:JBchrch
1520:Tkbrett
1513:changed
1500:23b ok
1498:23a ok
1481:JBchrch
1458:JBchrch
1445:JBchrch
1418:Tkbrett
1399:JBchrch
1379:Tkbrett
1346:JBchrch
1204:Tkbrett
1177:JBchrch
1154:Tkbrett
1147:website
941:JBchrch
932:Quality
911:Tkbrett
904:Playboy
888:JBchrch
868:Tkbrett
789:JBchrch
765:Tkbrett
746:JBchrch
717:Tkbrett
693:JBchrch
675:JBchrch
642:support
621:Tkbrett
612:Thanks
527:Support
507:Tkbrett
269:Tkbrett
133:Tkbrett
86:Tkbrett
2258:buidhe
1792:20r ok
1790:20m ok
1788:20g ok
1786:20b ok
1721:22d ok
1719:22b ok
1649:55 ok
1582:127 ok
1538:82 ok
1502:23c ok
1364:Fixed.
1318:Fixed.
1274:Added.
1197:remove
1113:Added.
1099:Fixed.
1039:Fixed.
1022:Fixed.
646:Aoba47
614:Aoba47
599:Aoba47
473:Fixed.
458:Fixed.
426:Fixed.
378:Fixed.
364:Fixed.
332:mostly
323:Fixed.
308:Fixed.
58:FACBot
54:Buidhe
2092:Help!
2082:Help!
1948:verse
1870:CPA-5
1653:73 ok
1651:64 ok
1647:38 ok
1580:27 ok
1578:17 ok
1576:1e ok
1574:1d ok
1572:1a ok
298:other
251:I've
119:Help!
16:<
2204:talk
2153:talk
2110:nor
2084:for
2041:talk
1989:talk
1874:talk
1828:talk
1816:pass
1806:talk
1770:talk
1706:talk
1634:talk
1598:this
1556:talk
1487:talk
1464:talk
1451:talk
1405:talk
1352:talk
1296:The
1256:The
1183:talk
1000:The
947:talk
894:talk
857:here
855:and
853:here
821:and
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