Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates/Józef Piłsudski

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presented to our readers on English Knowledge (XXG). Along the way, I also came to the conclusion that in the future, when and if I cast a vote in such debates, I will never personally use "per so and so" as the explanation of my position, but will explain my vote based on the subject matter, and my knowledge of it. To do otherwise would be suggesting that I didn't have my own opinion, or that I didn't have a clue about the actual subject matter at hand, or that I was just too lazy to give my own explanation. It seems odd to me that many of the earlier votes of "support" have retained their position without making any contributions or changes to the article. And not even acknowledging the many improvements and changes that have come about since the last survey. The least one could do is acknowledge is that the opposition votes catalyzed these changes to occur. I hope everyone has recently re-read through the article. I have. Granted, that has not been easy considering its length, tenditious style, and the spiderweb of "references" that one has to wade through. That was always one of my greatest objections to the article as it stands, because it gives it a ludicrous quality, and there is nothing ludicrous about this great man who did so much for Poland.

2401:, or Pilsudski referring to "Poles as a Nation of Morons", or Dmowski and Co. considering him an "alien in their midst". Relevant, factual information, that didn't fit in with the one-side portrayal that was being censored.The article could still be vastly improved, given a little more time. Is the article now better and less biased than before? Yes! Can it still be improved and made better with a little more time? Of course it could. So then, why do we have this unusual push, push, push? The article is not about to be deleted, WP is not about to cease to exist. I'm hoping that whoever feels the need for this extraordinary push to make this an FA article, is not fearful that their own questionable edits might not pass the test of time and analysis. The biggest "red flag", is this continual rush to make this an FA, with a new survey every couple of weeks. Since the debate started, this article has been vastly improved. Let the work continue. 361:

making a perfect sense for FA-noms. Several edit wars took place during the nomination and the edit wars were not over some specific phrasing, reference or an inclusion of sourced opinion but, for example, removals of whole sections diligently written by editors was attempted and various spurious reasons were cited for that. The effort to dismiss and disparage the editors who voiced their concerns reached a new height and the insistence that the article is great and those who oppose do so for the personal, POV or other bad-faithed reasons were repeatedly invoked at multiple pages. I don't see what is the point of the unprecedented immediate rerun of the nomination that exposed the article's being unready for an FA without first addressing those issues. The last nom drew plenty of bad blood. As if this was not enough and we need an urgent rehash of this dramatic process. --

996:

often-cited reason for Allied opposition is that they had intended Poland to stay within what they had determined to be its ethnographic boundaries, and this was their major problem with supporting Poland during the Polish-Soviet War. Refs later, or you-all can look it up yourselves. Also: "Piłsudski's regime marked a period of much-needed national stabilization and improvements in the situation of ethnic minorities, which formed almost a third of the Second Republic's population" and "Mainstream organizations of ethnic minorities similarly expressed their support for his policies of ethnic tolerance, though he was criticized, similarly to the communists, by Jewish (BUND), Ukrainian, German and Lithuanian

2385:

became stronger and the reasons for their reversion became less tenable, the solution by these parties was to sweep these issues under the carpet and obscure the information by allowing it to stay in links to the footnotes, rather than allowing it to be part of the article proper (with a few other manoevers). This fact should be strongly considered in deciding what to do with this new proposal, and that the former information be reinstated. Personally I like Pilsudski, and have stated so in the past. Naturally, I take issue with the fact that he was a dictator, and an opponent of democracy. He was a fish swimming in the pond of

1859:- which where split exactly to address such FA lenght objection, I can see that such articles are rarely read or edited, and hence somewhat useless. 3) The large size of the article is also a result of higher than average density of citations and variety of references. Surely you don't recommend we cut down on those? 4) Finally, in any case, splitting of sections would entitle rewritting the entire article, which would require hours more of work, new voting, rereading it by various editors who voted and so on - which I don't think is necessary. That said, I do support creation of more subarticles, and I do think that 2588:. On the basis of some quote or letter, the article on WP insists that he is a Pole. I'm not disagreeing that if that is true, then the article is correct. Yet, although we find that Pilsudski stated that he was a Lithuanian on many occasions, "poof," that argument doesn't count here. Why? To really understand Pilsudski, you have to see how his heritage played an enormous part in his psychological make up, and his role on the stage of world history. Incidentally, I'm sure you're aware that Pilsudski's mother was disinterred from Lithuania ( 641:(let's not start up with that rhetoric again). I also believe the article will be much better in another month or so when some final tweaking and improvements can be concluded. Maybe it will be done in two weeks, maybe two months. This is why I also agree with Irpen, that there is no need for an urgent rehash of the nomination. No need to rush into it. I also hope when the proper time comes to re-nominate the article, that every editor voting will come up with an explanation for their vote. Previously, this seemed to be somewhat lacking. 758:, 1996, ISBN 0-7126-7327-X, page 697. On the same page: " as soon as Poland gained its independence it began to strut around with imperial pretensions of its own. Marshal Pilsudski, the head of the Polish state and army, talked of restoring 'historic Poland' which had once stretched from the Baltic to the Black Sea. He promised to reclaim her eastern borderlands...As the Germans withdrew from the east, Polish troops marched into the borderlands..." Hope this suffices. More on request, but later. 1939:

redundant. The links themselves would not necessarily be visible to all users, and the viewable text, if I understood correctly, is not made available indefinitely - the viewable pages in one book can change with time, or google books may prevent the same users from revisiting them over and over. (In addition, they drag the text editing window to the right, which can get really annoying.) Is it possible to have them removed, or do they serve some other, not immediately apparent, purpose?

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article to say more than for editors to bicker over what is "essential" (you will note that two or three FAC applications of this article have prolonged themselves over precisely the "essential" issues to have in the article). One could move and develop elsewhere the various parts that come in addition to biographical data (even if that would arguably not be a significant reduction). Plus, there are currently many FAs who go way over the limit, and this was deemed (and, to my eyes,

414:. I agree with the decision to rerun the nomination. It is not a vote, so the numbers don't matter. All that matters is the reasons for support or objection. And the responses to objections or comments. I agree with Nihil Novi to the extent that it will be better if the objections and responses are stated simply and plainly. Follow-up discussions or editing discussions are probably better placed on the article talk page, so that the wood here can be seen for the trees. 2552:, "Lithuanian" (but is still actually a Pole)? Is there also such a thing as a Lithuanian, and also a Polish-Lithuanian-Commonwealth, "Pole"? I'm assuming that your exclamation marks are trying to state that your belief is that these type of Lithuanians deserve a special designation. Is there not a similar designation for such "Poles"? Or are Poles simply Poles, and the others, like Pilsudski who were Lithuanians, at best Polish-Lithuanian-Commonwealth "Lithuanians?" 3706:. Thankfully, it is less and less so. Without this relentless renomination of the article to become a FA and need to rush it before further improvements are made, it will be just fine. And for the record, the "many votes" it attracts seemed to have a more or less "ethnic component", than a contributory one. Finally this continual "fixing" of the article, whenever an objection is presented (rather than by a dialogue) is most troubling, because it is not a 906:, but you don't find in the lead an extensive discussion of other founding fathers or international politics. The article does not claim that "Piłsudski alone was responsible for Poland's independence", instead, like GW article, it qualifies his role with "He is considered largely responsible for Poland having regained her independence". This seems perfectly appropriate and is well-referenced. 898:, many factors contributed to Polish independence, and depending on context, various ones will be emphasized. I am not suprised that publication on Versailles notes Versailles, or that one on Polish-American relations mentions Wilson. But this article is about Piłsudski, and details on what contributed to Poland's independence belong in another article(s) - not in the lead of P. article. 3221:- it's a one-page summary, not too burdensome to read. Note the sentences "The chances of Polish independence increased radically in 1917 when the United States entered the war and two revolutions shook Russia....The Inter-Allied conference (June 1918) endorsed Polish independence, thus crowning the efforts of Dmowski, who had promoted the Polish cause in the West since 1915." 1680:) in respect to article sizes? 2) I know that there is an occasional practice of splitting someone's life into separate articles, but this is remarkably arbitrary and ghastly. Wouldn't it be safe to assume that people who worked on the article have more familiarity with what can and cannot be split into smaller articles? (In other words: Surely, one could develop 1812:, which would be a more logical division. That would allow more room for future expansion of the specific topic of his authoritarian rule, with a shorter summary of the topic in the main article. Surely a decent summary can be created for each of the long sections, something between the coverage that the lead section gives and what the subarticle would give. — 1065:. They did not want to see their traditional ally Russia weakened, but of course they coated this in more "politically correct" arguments. This should be mentioned in most publications (scholarly, not newspapers) that analyzes the issue in depth, instead of just mentioning this in passing. That said, we can just shorten this by leaving rationales in the 1772:"Life" (or, alternatively, ones on, respectively, "Childhood", "Adolescence" etc.) looks like the worst solution possible. And let me add that the solution implied is to a non-existing problem (per my previous arguments). The concern here is not to cut down articles, but to create prose that is not sectioned abruptly according to arbitrary criteria. 1074:), and French desire for weak Germany that countered it (and resulted in the Allies not doing anything for or against Poland). American Wilson, the idealist might have cared about non-realpolitk concepts like ethnic boundaries, but by the time of the PSW he was already trampled by the US isolationism, and USA expressed no interest in Międzymorze. 431:. The better choice was to give more time for improvement article and only then current problems there solved renominate again. Currently not mush is done in order to solve them, and we have quite far from consensus that info should be kept which not. Indeed, we can stuck in process of restart over and over again, not good IMO. 684:: "But suddenly with the Versailles Treaty it (Poland) found itself with a guarantee of independence and a great deal of new territory given to it by the victorious Western powers as a buffer between Germany and Russia". No credit given to Pilsudski. The US Department of State, not surprisingly, gives credit to 703:) - not currently mentioned. Minority opposition to his government is currently characterized as coming solely from extremists. How many square miles of territory did he acquire by military means that were not sanctioned by Versailles and are not part of Poland now? Etc, etc. This will take some time. 2616:

Now to the question of the "Poles being a nation of morons". That is not my opinion. That is Pilsudski's (although Prokonsul Piotrus corrected it to him calling them "idiots"). When Davies brought that into the Dmowski-Pilsudski quarrel it was to illustrate the intensity of the antagonism between the

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as time went on. Someone would make a useful edit only to have it reverted by one or two of the same people. Why because they personally didn't like it. They decided that their job was to "forge" this article according to their POV, and history and the facts be damned. As these "offensive" arguments

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into the area of Cracow in 1914 was a spectacular failure, citizens barred their doors and windows instead of showing support for Piłsudski's legioners - I have heard that event may have influenced Piłsudski's authortarian belifs. In my opinion This article should mention that event and it's possible

1953:

Google books are not very editor friendly, but they allow a user to view the selected page ASAP. True, they tend to rot - but on some random basis (I know some that have been stable for two years). As useful, they should stay - but certainly, as a very long urls they may take 1kb or more. If we cared

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While I certainly agree that subarticles should be created, 1) I don't think that length is a problem - we have many other FAs of similar length, it there is no policy or FA requirement of shorter length; in other words, it's just a personal preference which shouldn't constitute an objection 2) based

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has given us may be as close as we will get to "Piłsudski's political views." I don't think he ever published a synthesis of his views; he was a pragmatist; and he tended to keep his cards close to the vest—the result of decades of clandestine work, dogged by secret-police spies and enemies of every

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As it stands just now: "The plan (i.e. Międzymorze) met with opposition from most of the intended members—who refused to relinquish any of their hard-won independence—as well as from the Allied powers, for whom it would be too bold of a change to the existing balance of power structure." No, the most

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article - but selectively added those that support one's POV and leaving others out is a 'no-no'. PS. And certainly ethnic boundaries were the last thing on Allied minds during the PSW; it was the balance of power which made them request P. help Whites against the Bolsheviks - even through the Whites

995:

867:

From 1926 to 1930, Piłsudski relied chiefly on propaganda to weaken the influence of opposition leaders. The culmination of his dictatorial and supralegal policies came in 1930 with the imprisonment and trial of certain political opponents on the eve of the 1930 Polish legislative elections, and with

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The standard procedure is that if the nomination does not succeed the issue is shelved and the time is given to resolve whatever prevented the article from being promoted. Similarly to how failed RfA candidates have to wait rather than run an RfA after RfA until they like the result same tradition is

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Now that we near the end of this debate concerning the placing of the Pilsudski article as a FA candidate, I would like to again make a few comments. First, it was never my intention to prevent this article from attaining FA status, but only that a balanced and coherent encyclopedic article would be

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That is certainly a direction to look into, and it does look feasible. The problem in this case may be more subtle however: editors seem to have different ideas about what is essential, especially in respect to that part of the article; though I have not looked into it, it would seem that the recent

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As currently stated: "Piłsudski's regime began a period of national stabilization and improvements in the situation of ethnic minorities". This implies that the ongoing problems stemming from post-WWI territorial changes - Ukrainians seeking independence and upset about Galicia, Germans upset about

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With all respect to the Third World inhabitants, most of readers and contributors of English Knowledge (XXG) use broadband. Perhaps we could have a 'dial up' Knowledge (XXG) with tiny articles, but I prefer to have comprehensive, multimedia articles to small stubs. In any case, if an editor wants a

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Oh, verification isn't a worry to me (I know the book). I just wanted to see if Figes says anything to contradict the article's point about Pilsudski's importance to the independence of Poland. Neither quote does that: the original quote merely says what was agreed at Versailles (the article covers

263:

This unilateral decision to ignore and subvert an on going discussion and debate is extremely disturbing and insulting. A restoration of the previous votes and comments is absolutely necessary to keep the integrity of the discussion intact. I agree with Poeticbent on this one, and this "new effort"

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this article. My position regarding this article's strengths and weaknesses have been presented by me in detail on the talk pages. If you have the time (and I do mean time) you can get a very good idea of everyone's position on the archived talkpage, as well as this one. A FA on Knowledge (XXG) is

3546:

Yes, and this is the whole point being made by many, including myself, that the article needs lots more "fixing". Like you I want this article to become a FA. Virtually everyone currently supporting this nomination was satisfied with it long before so many "fixes" were implemented. Simply put, the

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Any author who goes into this at depth will notice that the situation fluctuated; Piłsudski tried to improve the situation but failed, and the deterioration accelerated after his death. In any case, this is simply not a major issue in an article about him. Second Polish Republic had many failings,

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ordered by Pilsudski. Other questionable wordings, some of which are easy to fix - "considered responsible for regaining Poland's independence" - just change to considered by many. A coin featuring his "rugged profile". Conflicts "resulted in Poland moving eastward" - passive tense. The use of the

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Novickas has a point about that paragraph. It's easy to fix, so lets take it to the talk page. On the other hand, this afternoon I was comparing the part of the article from the retirement to the end with a number of books written by non-Polish historians, and I found that to be the only paragraph

1987:

Adding a link to online page is helpful. Remember: Knowledge (XXG) is not paper. We can afford extensive and hyperlinked bibliographical information - just as paper publications often skip ISBN (which we link to online book search engines), or hyperlinks on authors or titles of notable books (for

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the article. For the rest, an article about a person is about that person's life and something else - the solution would be to turn that something else into an article, instead of making two about what is mainly the same thing. I could see separate ones on "Legacy" or "Family", but to have one on

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foundation: "In 1926 Marshal Jozef Pilsudski seized power with the help of the army. He had no anti - Jewish tendencies and refrained from using antisemitism as an instrument for furthering political and socioeconomic policies. At first, Pilsudski promised to improve the situation of the Jews but

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Newspapers are not the best of references. Lewis quote is not clear, she may as well mean ("Pilsudski... established an authoritarian regime... eventually disastrous") that Second Polish Republic ended in disaster after Nazi invasion in 1939. We have better criticism in legacy, including the well

734:: what about conflating two sentences to "a major influence on"? This doesn't contradict your Figes quote (though nor does the present wording, in my opinion, which just comes at it from another angle). Could you give the full ref for the Figes, so that one may check what he says about Pilsudski? 3547:

article needs plenty more fixing. This unusual and relentless attempt to make this a FA every few weeks, is becoming more of a game, than a serious desire to reach a consensus. Isn't better to create an article that it is the best that Knowledge (XXG) can offer to its readers? Until then, I vote

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As currently stated: "He is considered largely responsible for Poland having regained her independence in 1918". This statement is single-factorial. Yes, some people see it that way, but an encyclopedia is not in the business of attributing major historic developments to a single person. For an

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I may be nitpicking, but I fail to see how an article about someone's biography could be separated from the article on the person - the two terms are synonymous (I know stuff like that was done in the past, but I for one have always thought of it as a bad idea). In any case, it is better for an

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Mainly I'm concerned about the extremely high load time of 110 KB articles on dial-up connections, especially when trying to edit them. 10-20 seconds to load the article for editing...1 minute to load each preview...10-20 seconds to save...it kind of discourages dial-up users from contributing.

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I am always happy to address or join in ongoing discussions about what could be further improved; alas, I am not aware of any outstanding unadressed issues still at large. I am sure that as with any article on wiki discussions will continue for ever, but do note that a Featured article is not a

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Urbankowaski discusses this and argues that it was not a big failure, more of an average welcome with fewer volunteers than Piłsudski expected, but no 'empty streets' or 'barred doors'. IIRC he noted that such accounts were propagated by enemies of Piłsudski and the Legions, although there are

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A minor suggestion partly sparked by the above comments: it would seem that the google book URLs in the text would in themselves, if placed together, amount to an entire paragraph. Now, as far as i could tell, they follow precise and complete bibliographic references, which means that they are

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I should specify I took no part in authoring any section of the text - I'm just a bystander who has expressed mild objections to an earlier version of the article. At the moment, I am neither opposed nor supportive, because I think that the article needs some more work before reaching FA level

143:

The point of restarting a nomination it to clear away objections and discussions that have been resolved and are no longer relavant, and to force people to remain attentive to their comments. If you have objections from the old nom that remain pertinent, feel free to repost them (but DO NOT

3157:. The Locarno treaties as appeasement - not a universally accepted interpretation. He and some historians perceived them as such. Villified is not a neutral word. There were constitutional crises in 1990s Poland that involved widespread fears of a renewed Pilsudksi-like presidential role 1033:

Sorry, not satisfied and not done. If it goes ahead and becomes an FA, so be it; I won't have time in the upcoming days to address it further, but will continue to keep an eye on it - pls bear in mind that I don't like edit warring, so my lack of that does not constitute an endorsement.

1647:

I appreciate these technical aspects, and your bringing them to our attention. On the other hand, Piłsudski was a complex man living and acting in a complex time, and so has inevitably stirred controversy. I fear that far-reaching paring-down of the article might lead to misleading

1177:

836:

Witos's imprisonment could be mentioned; just add it in. However, the article makes it clear that Pilsudski was a dictator and anti-parliamentary. Those who think that this article paints Pilsudski as a hero might look again at its content (it records that Pilsudski was sometimes

1552:. I supported it last time and support also now. It was very good article in the previous nomination, now it is even better as concerns of various editors have been reflected. I also agree with Nihil novi. I've never seen such comprehensive article about this person nowhere. - 1179:- But I don't see the difference between what you say and what is in the article: they wanted the existing balance of power, not an expansion of Poland. I am willing to address your objections, but this seems very minor and in my opinion does not merit a change to the wording. 1830:(format problems and not just are still quite visible). I'm not sure it is not actually up to FA requirements, but I would still be polishing it if I would have a better grasp of the subject 9and, yes, part of that polish will involve condensing some parts of the text). 1735:

When a subject is complex, the article itself will have to be complex. Especially since this length was achieved after a shaky compromise, meaning that creating other articles could only lead users to contention and the article back to the drawing board for eternity.

1918:

No, I'm not talking about small stubs. I'm talking about the exact same information, perhaps more comprehensive, split into different articles with a condensed version left behind. Still, I see your point: dial-up is dying out. Thus, I'm changing to "Weak oppose".

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was not the King of Poland (lot's of the same faces from that debate are here at this one). But his ethnicity, or descent, if you prefer, remains important information and belongs in the article. And not as a footnote. If you insist on more examples let's take J.

3283:

As currently phrased: "Piłsudski was disappointed by the French and British policy of appeasement evident in those countries' signing of the Locarno Treaties." This is not a universally-acknowledged interpretation of the treaties - you could say this about the

680:. Still possible to see that it was not written by a Martian. Beginning with the lead: the statement that Pilsudski was responsible for Poland's independence. Referenced now, but still worded as though his responsibility were universally acknowledged. Quoting 3182:

the Danzig corridor, etc - went away for some unspecified period of time. Most authors treat the entire interwar period as turbulent. See Ilya Prizel, Aviel Roshvald, Roy Leslie, etc - some of these authors' viewpoints are discussed at the talk page.

1247:

I previously proposed in order to achieve NPOV a section on (Józef Piłsudski's) "Political views", more recently I proposed a section on historiography, previously there was a section on criticism, "Public Image" is another name for a name for such a

2389:, which was in vogue in that period of European history. He wasn't alone, nor was he as big a fish as some here would have liked him to be. Just the same, he did the best that he could under the circumstances, and with what he had to work with. As 2217:

confusing (contradictory) accounts of those events. If you have a ref that states that this even influenced Piłsudski, feel free to add it - although considering the lenght of the article, perhaps the FCC article would a better place for that? --

1155:

The paragraph about relations with the nationalist minorities and the Jews. I have added some material, referenced from Leslie, which balances the largely positive tone of the paragraph. I hope this addresses Novickas's objection on that point.

1886:. A 100 KB article crushes a dial-up connection, which doesn't do much for encouraging contribution. It's possible to have shorter articles that are still well-referenced. Unfortunately, previous FACs have not paid much attention to this issue. 2602:

Imagine the faces of Dmowski's nationalists when Pilsudski stated he's Lithuanian in the Polish Sejm...BTW his Polish "Lithuanianess" (sic) was one of many serious problems the nationalists had with Pilsudski and many of them hated him for

1662:

Content wouldn't be deleted, just copied to one or more subarticles and then summarized in the main article, with links to the subarticles. Surely a reasonably comprehensive summary of Józef Piłsudski could be given in less than 100 KB.

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in favor of the Featured-Article nomination. Apart from a few constructive criticisms, the bulk of the nay comments consisted of vociferous but uninformed carping and accusations which were convincingly rebutted by the nominator.

448:. I have no problems with restarting the nomination, the article has changed much during the last one, primarily due to extensive copyediting. The article is much better now than it was a month ago when the nom was submitted.-- 3692:

against Russia. Now this is why this article was delisted". Colonel Mustard, 29 May 2006. Or, "How I long for the day when his spirit finds another body - Oh Marshal Pilsudski We People of Poland love you". Anonymous, 31 Oct

721:

You may have a point that the article can be added to or reworded, but those links don't provide usable sources (a US state department website and a newspaper article). Lets break what you say down into objections and try to

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Also as I stated previously, one of my biggest problems with the article was its frequent incoherency, resulting from edits by individuals with a poor grasp of English, and its attempt to portray a controversial figure in a

3346: 2256:, kept them at arm's length. Many people were lukewarm toward the Legions, and recruiting officers found slim pickings. Which, if anything, only underlines the farsightedness and determination of Piłsudski and his men. 3343: 1591:

I disagree. Piłsudski is a central figure in a period of Polish history that could be termed "the Age of Piłsudski." This article does a unique job of bringing together the salient information on the man and the age.

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A side note: Bibliographies in Polish publications often abbreviate authors' first names, even when the authors don't do so on their title pages. Some years ago, a Polish historian expressed surprise on learning that

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expansions have attempted to cover all of what is essential in all takes on the matter, which means that they may not agree on what needs to be summarized, and that what we see before us at the moment actually is

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I don't see how the anti-democratic and dictatorial behaviour of Pilsudski could be made plainer without the article becoming biased in the opposite direction. One instinctively sides with those on the receiving

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were much less willing to recognize independence of any former Russisan Empire minorities. It was the balance of power and desire for strong Germany and Russia that kept England in the anti-Polish camp (read on

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article :) This one is above average, with discussion of Polish historiography and wealth of publications. If I had a source for non-Polish historiography, I'd have added it, but I don't recall a good analysis

1008:. Not as strong a statement as is currently written. But doesn't this all belong on the article talk page, and doesn't it all indicate serious disagreement? Also pls remove the word "dream" from the article. 2617:

two. Not out of context or gratuitously, BTW. Ditto when Davies stated that Pilsudski considered himself a Lithuanian of Polish culture. It too was to emphasize the feud between them. Pilsudski's opinion of

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What Piłsudski has been quoted as saying of Poles ("morons"), any politican has thought at times of his constituency, so it is superfluous to use such a quotation, out of context, to gratuitously insult all

1087:

Does this belong on the talk page? Perhaps, but why do you post it here? The FAC time, as evident, attracts comments from many editors who are otherwise not active in the article. We try our best to address

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op. cit. — there are many versions of formatting and writing of op. cit.: cursive and non-cursive, with space between these words and without space (op. cit./op.cit.), with periods and without (op. cit./op

599:. As before. But now much more whole-heartedly. Due to tremendous response, the article is much improved, including all sorts of details—big and small, nuts and bolts and all—taken care of. I say, enough 3213:

responsible for Poland regaining independence. Granted, his activity was only one of the resulting factors, but the article doesn't claim he was solely responsible for it - so I see no contradiction here.

3638:

Well, Piotrus, I think the biography is fine. And, you and Nihil novi have contributed significantly to the articles related to Poland. Let me ask a question: Why are Dr. Dan and M.K against the article?

691:

The statement needs to be reworded as an attribution. And we have established that he is controversial - that belongs in the lead too, but it will take a while to work out the wording and the references.

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as last time, but more strongly so, given improvements. One small point: we're told condolences were expressed by "Eastern Orthodox" and "Greek Orthodox" organisations. Could this be clarified? Does the

2069:- like before. I'm reinserting my vote, for the record. In the future though I would prefer for my vote to be respected regardless of any later administrative decision to restart a runaway discussion. -- 3688:

vote when it truly reaches that point. Soon I hope. Few will remember edits on the talk page like, "He was the greatest Pole of all time and my great grandfather was proud to serve under him in the

3314:

Some minor 1990s crises in Polish politics which made somebody compare the situation to P. times (60 years after his death and without an article on either en or pl wiki) don't seem relevant here.--

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summary. I for one see no technical problem with the length - meaning that a subarticle may actually be an even larger version of the section, and that the section is as small as it could ever get.

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or even in Polish encyclopedias. It is a superior, comprehensive, balanced, well-illustrated, eminently readable, full-length biography, distilled to the proportions of an on-line encyclopedia.

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Well, yes, but my full point is that the references accompanying them are already exact (down to page numbers), meaning that the technical aspect is covered without them having to stick around.

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political stripe. Even politicians in modern western democracies tend to be duplicitous. Don't expect complete declarations of political views from a man in his circumstances in that period.

90:

without earlier decision being reached or properly announced. In the process you wiped out contributions from reviewers who deserve an answer. How is this possible if at all, please explain? --

3154:

word "dream" to describe plans that much of the rest of the world saw as imperialism - the Polish government felt it necessary to defend itself against this charge in an "appeal to the world"

637:. I agree with Piotrus that the article is much better now than it was last month. I believe this is largely due to very specific concerns brought up dealing with a variety of issues, not ... 1889:

If detailed information is split off into subarticles, and those articles are in turn rarely read, doesn't that indicate that few people are interested in reading that information anyway? —

1333:

may have some issues, but- what's FA quality anyways? - way more attention is paid to this than to less controversial articles, this article is far above in quality. Good work, Piotrus.--

2571:

brothers was unecessary, unless it was for the benefit of others. The bottom line regarding your examples is that we have two families, one Lithuanian and the other Ukrainian who were

2849:

There are also some minor differences in referencing style, for example ISBN written with and without dashes (-); sometimes there is comma (,), sometimes semicolon (;) before ISBN.

1808:←I've been thinking about it some more, and perhaps a better solution would be to create articles based on the existing section breaks. For example, we could have an article on the 3093: 1254:

What do you think, Piotrus? Please note that these might be good suggestions even outside of being solutions to a non-NPOV but rather to improve comprehensibility and organization.

3058: 780:

Is this all that Figes mentions of Piłsudski? For the record, snippet (read: useless) view is all that Google offers for that publication, so verification requires printed copy.--

1251:

I believe Piłsudski is a hero of Poland as it's "liberator" - - that he was a great man in the eyes of many does not diminish that he was also a "fascist" in the eyes of others.

2393:

stated (with sourced information and links) and so did Davies, Pilsudski considered himself Lithuanian. This fact has been fought "tooth and nail", more because of the argument

3064:

since the 1920s had, in accordance with Pilsudkis orders, prepared offensive concepts against Weimar Germany, which was defenseless due to Versailles restrictions. What might

3146:

This article is about a dictator - you have to expect protracted discussion. Some particular points. His attitude towards minorities is currently described as favorable, but

959:- mentioned many times throughout the article - are not characterized as minority extremists, and many other factions opposed to him are mentioned (socialists, communists)... 968:

Pilsudski's approach to Polish eastern borders is discussed extensively, with at least a para dedicated to that issue at the beginning of the 'Polish-Soviet War' chapter.--

841:

to be a hero, but that is a different matter). I disliked Pilsudski after reading this article and did not admire him; the article did not strike me as glorifying him.

3151: 1535:; instead of it inserting original research and weasel words, in any sense such article can be promoted. My previuos concerns on older nom is also not resolved fully. 3178:

The article mentions (just as Snyder writes) that OUN attacks led to repressions and deterioration of the relations between Ukrainian minority and Polish government.

3120:

The article mentions P. plans for a war against Germany. Going into details of unrealized and highly speculative military plans is rather off topic in this article.--

1767:"Biography" and "life" are themselves synonymous to each other in this context, so it would not make much sense. Yes, bio and legacy are separated, but they are so 2783: 554:

Unfortunately "google hits" are not all that some make them out to be. "Malincuore" is Italian, and literally means "heartache" and more loosely, disappointing.

3931: 3348:. I would submit that the creation of a post-Soviet constitution is not minor, and that there was much more discussion of these issues in PL-language sources. 3342:("This is of immense importance because of Poland's experience with the defense council during the Pilsudski and 1980-81 martial law eras") and in these books 916:

referenced claim that Piłsudski "inevitably drawn both intense loyalty and intense vilification" - which, amusingly, we can see well in our discussions here :)

40: 3657:

Read my comment above and archived thread and oh, you also should read others comments as well, in order to find out who are unsatisfied of certain issues...

3224:

This is well referenced, and majority of sources put Piłsudski's efforts above Dmowski's - which nonetheless, together with the Versailles and its aftermath,

2684:

I don't blame you for not wanting to respond. These are thorny issues that are better handled at the article, not here. And the rest truly, is "Nothing New".

929:

controversy - is discussed in the article in its context and linked, the list of who was arrested and sentenced (or not) does not belong in P. article but in

2982:

I've corrected the "Further reading" section as far as I could. In some items, information was unclear or missing. Poles, for example, frequently list the

2613:, when they fall short of the expectations and POV of some people. Assuming of course that there is no ojection to a balanced, neutral, and unbiased article. 3334: 1702:. The "Biography" section is 82 KB, more than enough for an article of its own. One option is to copy-and-paste the biography section into a new article, 2609:' referenced information regarding this was rv'd, because it was "offensive"). I don't think Davies is offensive but I think some of his works fall into 2090:

For the same reason I supported it before. Also it seems that most all of the reasonable concerns and objections from last round have been made right.

697: 620:

One of the best articles on Knowledge (XXG), in large part due to unusual interest of different sides, which positively contributed to the contents.

3053:

as in the last round. A lot of superficial gloss and we-want-it-to-be-featured, and no improvement regarding the NPOV issues I had a quick look at.

30: 17: 3463:

No locations in references—for example, let's take two first references: no location for Plach, 2006 (Warsaw) and Drozdowski, 1995 (Athens, Ohio).

2419:

As others have pointed out, there was not necessarily an incompatibility, for persons such as Piłsudski, between considering oneself a Pole and a

524: 2592:

mentions in his biography of JP, that the Lithuanian government was very gracious and helpful in granting her son's wish to bring her remains to

3801:

I think I should stay away from this discussion. I don't have great knowledge about Polish history. I will do research before casting my vote.

2380:, and others), with comment like "it's offensive" and the like, was another reason that I objected. This activity soon began to also violate 868:

the 1934 establishment of a prison for political prisoners at Bereza Kartuska (today Biaroza), where some prisoners were brutally mistreated.

3351:

Feel free to expand articles about modern Polish political history with this information. But this is not of much relevance to P. article.--

2628:. Regarding my U.S. Senatorial run, you could also consider a run for the Sejm. Lastly, since you have a penchant for Latin, consider....." 865:. I don't know how you can draw that conclusion: it is quite clear that he was opposed by the normal democratic bodies—for example, here: 3073: 1606:

Can't you cut it down to a 50 KB summary of his life and that period of history, and move the less important details to subarticles? —

3608: 3089: 125:

How about the votes cast already and left hanging, including my own vote of support? Are they also "one click away" from this nom? --

3889:

Well, Dr. Dan, I studied the arguments on the talk page of Piłsudski. I have decided to stay away from this discussion. My vote is

3902: 3852: 3810: 3770: 3719: 3666: 3648: 3629: 3598: 3560: 3536: 3517: 3492: 3409: 3387: 3365: 3328: 3305: 3271: 3242: 3200: 3169: 3134: 3111: 3041: 3003: 2971: 2877: 2858: 2803: 2773: 2735: 2693: 2667: 2645: 2539: 2507: 2423:"Lithuanian." So there really is no need to harp on his having been a "Lithuanian." The assassinated first president of Poland, 2410: 2339: 2320: 2296: 2265: 2231: 2207: 2185: 2164: 2141: 2111: 2094: 2082: 2061: 2044: 2027: 2002: 1982: 1968: 1954:

more about technical aspects than writing good articles, we could remove them - but I'd hope our care is in the other direction.--

1948: 1923: 1913: 1893: 1877: 1839: 1816: 1781: 1762: 1745: 1722: 1693: 1667: 1657: 1642: 1632: 1610: 1601: 1582: 1561: 1544: 1509: 1496: 1450: 1422: 1385: 1359: 1341: 1323: 1284: 1265: 1234: 1206: 1188: 1165: 1148: 1125: 1102: 1043: 1017: 982: 880: 850: 821: 794: 767: 743: 712: 670: 650: 629: 612: 583: 563: 541: 479: 462: 440: 423: 404: 385: 365: 349: 323: 309: 295: 273: 246: 232: 200: 170: 153: 138: 120: 103: 76: 3155: 1026:

I can't help to note you have not addressed my or Qp10qp's replies above. Can we assume you are satisfied with our arguments? P.

2477: 1758:

article covers not only his life, but his legacy and family, so there's already a separatoin between his life and his legacy. —

1077:

Regarding analysis of the statements made by various factions after his death, this is referenced with a scholarly publication

3469:

No standardisation for locations in Ref section, sometimes written in Polish, sometimes in English language (Warsaw/Warszawa).

2764:

swimming backward and hiding under a rock, just because you couldn't answer my objections. Try to be civil and more pleasant.

1000:". Methinks the Ukrainians, Germans, and Lithuanians would disagree with this. As for the Jewish minority, read this from the 2549: 2442: 2420: 3378:

Length/access issues - I have DSL and I have problems editing this page (now 71 KB), the article itself, and its talk page.

3254:

The passively-worded phrase in question is "a series of escalating battles which resulted in the Poles advancing eastward."

2954:"—"in the work cited." Since it comes from a foreign language (Latin), in English it is generally italicized. And since " 2782:

is a comparison, not an equation, and I'd appreciate you not invoking my name again in a threatening manner with regards to

1302:"'s Featured-Article nomination. This article is one of the highlights of Knowledge (XXG). There is nothing to compare in 1809: 933:(eleven important politicians were tried, quite a few more were arrested and briefly imprisoned alongside Witos, including 1480: 1434: 1406: 2193:

If I remmember correctly both my history teachers at primary and high school mentioned that politicaly the march of the

2024: 336:

Yes to what? That they are good questions, or that, yes, "Big Brother" wants to shovel the previous discussion down the

283: 3589:

and I think it is a very good biography. However, Dr. Dan and M.K have raised some issues. Is this biography neutral?

3337: 2795: 1371:. Added a note the article in the section on names about use of Joseph by some English publications a few days back.-- 1084:

As for the Jewish minority, read the current references. I believe the article is neutral with regards to that issue.

3684:

type of article that the project can produce. This article is constantly improving, and I look forward to casting a

3522:

Thank you for fixing those issues. All comments are appreciated, but comments followed by fixes are doubly so :) --

2610: 2438: 2394: 895: 1711: 1703: 1351:

naming- why the non-english accents?- why not Pilsudski? - what is he normally referred to in english works as?--

656:"final" or "perfect" one - just one fulfilling the FA-requirements, which I sincerely believe this article does.-- 3898: 3806: 3644: 3594: 2760:

Now, now, be nice! Don't compare me to a squid. I don't want Ieoth to have to tag you. I didn't compare you to a

1856: 1005:

little was accomplished in practice although the general atmosphere with regard to the Jews showed improvement."

3689: 1883: 1699: 3451:

8. & 142. Zbigniew Wojcik, Przedmowa, in Marian Marek Drozdowski, Hanna Szwankowska, Pożegnanie Marszałka.

3280:

Locarno - extensively discussed before; the article makes it clear it was Piłsudski's POV to see them as such.

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articles from this one, but should they be developed along arbitrary lines just because the text is too big?)

3291:

And for the n-th time, this is attributed to P., referenced and rather appopriate for an article about him.--

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2. Marian Marek Drozdowski, Przedmowa, in Marian Marek Drozdowski, Hanna Szwankowska, Pożegnanie Marszałka.

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This puts a little of my objection in a nutshell, it once was a highly nationalistic POV'd boring piece of

2827:

There are some article standardisation issues in References and Further reading sections (current revision

3160:- no mention. Some issues have been addressed and the article has been improved thereby, but more remain. 2458: 2129: 1401: 1310: 166: 116: 3422:. While the article is truly impressive and well written, References and Further reading sections fails 3061: 2530:, of whom a critic remarked that seldom has a writer used so many words to convey so little substance. 2520: 2397:, than a true refutation of this fact. Let it stay on the record here. Same with his establishment of a 2040: 1920: 1890: 1813: 1759: 1719: 1664: 1639: 1607: 1579: 3586: 3472:

No standardisation for url retrieve date (Retrieved on/retrieved on/Last accessed on/last accessed on).

2798: 1755: 1715: 1707: 1465: 1299: 516: 57: 3843:

M2000, please take a good look at the talk pages (one archived) too. Might be very enlightening. Best

3055:"Relations with Weimar Germany ... Pilsudski's tenure could for the most part be described as neutral" 3894: 3802: 3766: 3746: 3640: 3590: 3405: 3037: 2999: 2967: 2731: 2663: 2535: 2503: 2261: 2137: 2075: 1653: 1628: 1597: 1492: 1446: 1418: 1319: 1280: 381: 228: 196: 131: 96: 2372:

POV type of format. The continual reversion of sourced edits (by very established historians, e.g.,

507: 3703: 3101: 3070:"in January 1933, Piłsudski is rumored to have proposed to France a preventive war against Germany" 2633: 2629: 2605:". A very pithy analysis of the facts, from Hali, and it should be incorporated into the article ( 2589: 2527: 2369: 2194: 1502: 1352: 1334: 1258: 1199: 608: 579: 291: 1006: 603:

criticism (constructive or otherwise)—let's give it a thumbs up, and appreciate a job well done.

237:

Anything posted prior to the restart is gone (out of consideration) unless the person reposts it.

3615:. I'd hope that the article would not have gotten as many supports as it has if I was mistaken.-- 3475:

No standardisation for author (or editor), written in different ways: last, first and first last.

3383: 3165: 3104: 3021: 2495: 2424: 2398: 2332: 2292: 2253: 2203: 2107: 2019: 1557: 1039: 1013: 951:

Minority opposition to his government is currently characterized as coming solely from extremists

863:

Minority opposition to his government is currently characterized as coming solely from extremists

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and not a single one of them (nor any of its achievements) should be given undue weight there.--

2575:, as was Pilsudski. And for the record no one is attempting to argue that Pilsudski was not the 3158: 1460: 1052:

Could you address our replies, so we know which of them do you find unsatisfactory, and why? P.

470:. Nomination should be restarted as the article has been improved since the last nomination. - 3848: 3715: 3622: 3556: 3529: 3358: 3321: 3298: 3264: 3235: 3193: 3127: 2769: 2689: 2641: 2568: 2466: 2406: 2224: 2157: 2057: 1995: 1961: 1906: 1870: 1852: 1378: 1227: 1141: 1095: 975: 934: 899: 787: 663: 646: 559: 534: 455: 345: 319: 305: 269: 242: 159: 149: 109: 72: 3710:

article, and needs a more balanced and neutral perspective. Hope that helps with your query.

3612: 3423: 2624:

After reading your comments on my comments, I have a better understanding of your user name,

1575: 3285: 2556: 2314: 2181: 2125: 2121: 2036: 1184: 1161: 1121: 1062: 1001: 876: 846: 817: 739: 419: 3707: 2381: 2347:- while long, the article is well-referenced, and its size should not be held against it.-- 3762: 3574: 3513: 3488: 3401: 3033: 3026: 2995: 2963: 2873: 2854: 2792: 2727: 2659: 2531: 2499: 2386: 2257: 2133: 2070: 1649: 1624: 1593: 1488: 1442: 1414: 1315: 1276: 902:"was a central, critical figure in the founding of the United States" - surely he was not 625: 377: 224: 192: 126: 91: 3219: 3251:

Rugged - fixed. "resulted in Poland moving eastward" - string not found. Dream - fixed.

3428:

_consistently formatted_ inline citations using either footnotes or Harvard referencing

3147: 2377: 1978: 1944: 1835: 1777: 1741: 1689: 1616: 1066: 700: 685: 604: 575: 287: 3340: 3662: 3379: 3161: 2606: 2597: 2487: 2390: 2373: 2329: 2288: 2199: 2103: 1553: 1540: 1501:

Sounds good, thanks, sorry for not noticing Nominator's answer in the previous FAC.--

1455: 1035: 1009: 759: 704: 681: 471: 436: 400: 3611:

quite well, and as I have argued above arguments to the contrary are a violation of

3090:

Waclaw Jedrzejewicz : The Polish Plan for a "preventive War" Against Germany in 1933

3844: 3758: 3711: 3699: 3618: 3582: 3570: 3552: 3525: 3354: 3317: 3294: 3260: 3231: 3189: 3123: 2765: 2685: 2637: 2491: 2402: 2220: 2153: 2091: 2053: 1991: 1957: 1902: 1866: 1574:—Article is excessively long; details should be branched off into subarticles, see 1374: 1271: 1223: 1137: 1091: 1071: 971: 783: 659: 642: 555: 530: 451: 341: 315: 301: 265: 238: 145: 83: 68: 2245: 395:

matter - article improvement and that presented problems on FAC should be solved.

3333:

These crises and their relation to Pilduski are mentioned in the New York Times

2892: 2515:

So why this constant dawdle, dawdle, dawdle? Our esteemed colleague's skill in

2446: 2348: 2249: 2241: 2177: 1180: 1157: 1117: 938: 937:, another Polish PM ... so what? This is article about Piłsudski, not about the 930: 926: 872: 842: 813: 735: 693: 415: 337: 279: 1081:

to analyzing those. Feel free to provide a scholarly reference to the contrary.

3509: 3484: 2899: 2869: 2850: 2787: 2625: 2600:

stated in the archives of Pilsudski's talk page (archive 2003-2006 sec. 13). "

2560: 2516: 2429: 1484: 1469: 1438: 1410: 621: 362: 2922: 2572: 2470: 1974: 1940: 1831: 1773: 1737: 1685: 2490:'s opinion of Piłsudski hardly seems germane. Probably a critical, if not 2244:, when Polish Legions cavalry officers attempted to pay a courtesy call at 527:), so I am afraid I cannot address this issue until you elaborate on it.-- 3658: 3578: 2761: 2585: 2576: 2548:

Nihil, who decides if someone is a Pole, and that if another person is a

1536: 432: 396: 519:

clearly stressd as such. I am not familiar with the meaning of the word

191:

Aren't the previous votes valid as cast, unless altered by the voters?

2918:

where Anglophones use commas (thus, "5.280,03" rather than "5,280.03").

2911: 2618: 2593: 2580: 955: 3483:

Some names are red links, some are no links. What decides about that?

812:

that), and this one merely says what happened after the independence.

2915: 2903: 2779: 2462: 2150:

I'll take a look at the source book when I am in the library again.--

3930:

Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in

2898:

Poles are often unaware that they use different standards than most

2891:

In editing this article, when I've encountered non-English-standard

2722:, you conceal the paucity of your argument with a great effusion of 2132:, also an Eastern Orthodox church, that was expressing condolences? 39:

Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in

2494:, comment of Piłsudski's could be cited regarding Dmowski. Again, 391:

It is not matter how much votes of support or oppose it have, what

3086:

prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard.

2958:" is an abbreviation, it comes with periods. And since these are 2947: 2907: 2844:

Further reading section — no periods at the end of some sentences.

2719: 3504:

All known issues mentioned by me above has been resolved. Now, I

2932:

titles—again, the exact reverse of what Anglophones generally do.

894:

the note on him being controversial to the lead a few hours ago.

3457: 2450: 1620: 3508:

for FA, per Piotrus; well written and well referenced article.

639:

because of vociferous and uninformed carping and accusations...

158:

Poeticbent, if you still Support, you can re-enter that here.

3397: 2723: 1863:

content should be added to them, not to the current article.--

1061:

The Allies cared much less about ethnic boundaries than about

2621:

and vice-versa are very germane and relevant in this article.

3607:

Having written quite a few FAs, I believe this one fulfills

3585:

are opposing the FA nomination. Interesting! I studied the

3400:? I have DSL, too, and no problem editing this article. 1245:

Previously Alleged non-NPOV - what are possible solutions?

3068:

refer to anyway, travelling to the Olympics in 1936? And

1698:

It's not a strict requirement, but it is a guideline per

3478:

No standardisation for dashes in dates (hyphen/en dash).

2526:

Our colleague's style of argument reminds me of that of

2328:(didn't change my mind). If that's not a FA, what is? -- 1615:

Are you concerned about limited space, or about limited

3209:

I am not aware of any source that argues Piłsudski was

2828: 2579:

of Poland, just as previously no one was arguing that

1532: 1528: 1524: 1368: 891: 87: 64: 505:: now it's OK, but the last section can be enlarged -- 1623:-readers' version is already in the article's lead. 515:

The sections had been merged and the main article of

108:

Comments aren't wiped out; they are one click away.

1198:

section on "historiography" per comprehensiveness?--

278:¿Qué Pasa? Has all the previous stuff gone down the 3460:, not to Watt, Richard: 144. Watt, Richard (1979). 3445:Two the same references written in different ways: 3078:"should exemplify Knowledge (XXG)'s very best work" 2312:as before, it is well written and sourced article. 573:. Are the two expressions related, and if so, how? 3150:mentions public corporal punishment of Ukrainians 3100:. When will the third FA candidacy be started? -- 696:described his regime as "ultimately disastrous" . 3924:The above discussion is preserved as an archive. 3932:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates 3057:? According to Polish historian Marian Zgorniak 2128:churches, operate in Poland? Or was it just the 756:A People's Tragedy: Russian Revolution 1891-1924 41:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates 3934:. No further edits should be made to this page. 2939:" situation is thus but the tip of the iceberg. 699:. Yo, people, he put a prime minister in jail ( 43:. No further edits should be made to this page. 2563:of course), the history lesson regarding the 1529:equaled "to moon is made out of green cheese" 1241:I'd like to see it in every article too :D... 29:The following is an archived discussion of a 8: 3098:for a preventive war against Germany in 1933 2962:words, there should be a space between them. 3753:, and you discuss irrelevant "edits on the 3466:Wrong ISBN for Dziewanowski (1969). (Fixed) 18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates 3076:, all a Featured-Article-candidate, which 144:copy-and-paste en masse from the old nom) 2287:IMHO this article meets the FA criteria. 1899:tiny summary, this is what lead is for.-- 1882:There is a guideline about article size: 3577:are supporting the FA nomination. And, 2018:- per Nihil novi, supported last time. 1523:then academic facts being described as 3074:"preventive war against germany" +1933 1672:Two questions: 1) Is there any actual 3619:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3609:Knowledge (XXG):Neutral point of view 3526:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3355:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3318:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3295:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3261:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3232:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3190:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 3124:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 2221:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 2154:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1992:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1958:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1903:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1867:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1810:Authoritarian rule of Józef Piłsudski 1706:, link to that article at the top of 1375:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1224:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1138:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 1092:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 972:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 784:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 660:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 531:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 492:, there are too short sections, such 452:Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 7: 3218:encyclopedic version see Britannica 2632:." p.s. I don't have a problem with 1851:on my experience with subarticle of 953:- I am pretty sure that Dmowski and 3675:Masterpiece, to be clear, I am not 3569:This is an interesting discussion. 2658:I stand by my previous comments. 732:considered largely responsible for 24: 3396:Are you sure the problem is with 3088:In the words of Polish historian 925:Witos imprisonment - part of the 896:As I have explained to you before 3430:. I've also noticed some issues: 1270:I suspect that the picture that 264:needs to be shelved right away. 3060:, Polish military leaders like 2478:Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church 1174:Novickas makes this objection: 3749:asked about objections to the 2550:Polish-Lithuanian-Commonwealth 2443:Lithuanian Act of Independence 2421:Polish-Lithuanian-Commonwealth 2248:, that singer of the national 1750:You could call the new branch 1: 2946:" is the abbreviation of the 1562:15:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 1545:15:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC) 1510:05:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC) 1497:15:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1451:14:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1423:13:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1386:11:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1360:11:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1342:11:36, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1324:03:34, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1285:16:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC) 1266:15:49, 27 December 2007 (UTC) 1235:02:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1207:00:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC) 1189:19:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 1166:21:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 1149:20:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 1126:19:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 1103:19:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 1044:19:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 1018:19:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 983:18:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 881:18:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 851:18:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 822:21:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 795:20:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 768:20:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 744:18:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 713:17:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 671:16:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 651:15:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 630:14:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 613:13:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 584:16:20, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 569:Sounds like a translation of 564:15:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 542:15:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 480:12:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 463:12:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 441:12:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 424:11:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 405:12:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 386:05:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 366:05:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 350:15:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 324:05:34, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 310:05:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 296:04:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 274:04:24, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 247:04:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 233:04:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 201:03:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 171:02:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC) 154:19:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 139:19:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 121:19:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 104:18:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 77:16:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC) 3903:05:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 3853:04:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 3811:02:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 3771:03:31, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 3720:01:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC) 3667:13:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3649:08:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3630:06:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3599:04:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3561:00:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3537:19:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 3518:16:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 3493:21:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 3410:18:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 3388:16:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 3366:06:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3329:18:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 3306:06:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3272:06:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3243:06:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3201:06:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 3170:16:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 3135:19:36, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 3112:09:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 3072:? With all the sources on a 3042:21:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 3004:20:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 2972:20:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 2878:16:53, 15 January 2008 (UTC) 2859:09:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 2804:21:58, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 2774:20:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 2736:16:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 2714:There is nothing to respond 2694:13:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC) 2668:23:52, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 2646:23:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 2540:20:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC) 2508:20:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC) 2411:14:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC) 2340:20:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 2321:18:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 2297:23:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC) 2266:03:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC) 2232:18:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 2208:18:11, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 2186:01:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 2165:18:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 2003:18:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC) 1924:05:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC) 1884:Knowledge (XXG):Article size 1712:Biography of Józef Piłsudski 1704:Biography of Józef Piłsudski 1700:Knowledge (XXG):Article size 1437:," likewise with the Polish 284:standard operating procedure 3338:National Defense University 3228:mentioned in the article.-- 2895:, I've tried to correct it. 2513:Further comment on comment: 2465:general, while his brother 2142:23:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 2112:21:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 2095:20:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 2083:19:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 2062:19:28, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 2052:since the last nomination. 2045:17:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 2028:16:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1983:20:49, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1969:20:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1949:20:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1914:19:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1894:19:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1878:16:21, 9 January 2008 (UTC) 1840:06:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1817:06:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1782:03:51, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1763:03:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1746:03:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1723:02:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1694:02:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1668:02:29, 7 January 2008 (UTC) 1658:11:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 1643:01:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 1633:01:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 1611:00:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC) 1602:22:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 1583:18:09, 5 January 2008 (UTC) 688:- no mention of Pilsudski. 282:? I don't get it. Is this 31:featured article nomination 3951: 3690:Polish Victory War of 1920 3082:"rumored to have proposed" 2439:State Council of Lithuania 82:This is really confusing. 3757:." Why this exercise in 2928:titles and use quotes on 2102:. I supported last time. 1857:Polish-Soviet War in 1919 1716:Józef Piłsudski#Biography 1708:Józef Piłsudski#Biography 1435:Józef (Klemens) Piłsudski 3927:Please do not modify it. 2906:, for example, they use 2427:, was a "Pole," if only 1754:if you wanted. The main 52:01:51, 21 January 2008. 36:Please do not modify it. 2786:enforcement. Thanks. 2474:Metropolitan Archbishop 1752:Life of Józef Piłsudski 1481:Józef Klemens Piłsudski 1430:Encyclopedia Britannica 1407:Józef Klemens Piłsudski 1305:Encyclopedia Britannica 931:the relevant subarticle 3613:undue weight principle 3080:, can come up with is 2130:Polish Orthodox Church 1648:oversimplifications. 1402:Encyclopedia Americana 1311:Encyclopedia Americana 1215:I'd like to see it in 1116:that didn't stand up. 754:The Figes ref is from 88:Piłsudski's nomination 3062:Gustaw Orlicz-Dreszer 2521:United States Senator 2498:, with politicians. 2198:future implications. 1710:, and then summarize 3680:purported to be the 3019:Tuchman," author of 2984:place of publication 2519:would do honor to a 2441:and a signer of the 2437:was a member of the 2435:Stanisław Narutowicz 2240:At the beginning of 1732:) the best solution. 371:The vote was nearly 3704:cult of personality 2630:ex nihilo nihil fit 2528:George Bernard Shaw 2459:Stanisław Szeptycki 2417:Comment on comment: 2370:cult of personality 2195:First Cadre Company 1988:obvious reasons).-- 1479:(1979), calls him " 1464:(1982), calls him " 1134:Which paragraph? -- 3066:"marsz na berlin"! 3022:The Guns of August 2496:par for the course 2425:Gabriel Narutowicz 2399:concentration camp 2254:Henryk Sienkiewicz 2176:As the last time-- 1533:as flowery languge 602: 517:Piłsudski (family) 3108: 2921:Similarly, Poles 2567:brothers and the 2555:Whereas granted, 2467:Andrey Sheptytsky 2453:. Similarly, in 2351:07:40, 12 January 2337: 2080: 1853:Polish-Soviet War 1475:Richard M. Watt, 935:Wojciech Korfanty 900:George Washington 600: 574: 525:neither is google 136: 101: 3942: 3929: 3627: 3625: 3534: 3532: 3363: 3361: 3326: 3324: 3303: 3301: 3288:, but not here. 3286:Munich Agreement 3269: 3267: 3240: 3238: 3198: 3196: 3132: 3130: 3109: 3106: 2336: 2333: 2317: 2229: 2227: 2162: 2160: 2126:Eastern Orthodox 2122:Church of Greece 2079: 2076: 2022: 2000: 1998: 1966: 1964: 1921:Remember the dot 1911: 1909: 1891:Remember the dot 1875: 1873: 1814:Remember the dot 1760:Remember the dot 1720:Remember the dot 1665:Remember the dot 1640:Remember the dot 1608:Remember the dot 1580:Remember the dot 1461:God's Playground 1383: 1381: 1232: 1230: 1146: 1144: 1100: 1098: 1063:balance of power 1002:Simon Wiesenthal 980: 978: 792: 790: 668: 666: 568: 539: 537: 510: 460: 458: 300:Good questions. 163: 135: 132: 113: 100: 97: 86:, you restarted 48:The article was 38: 3950: 3949: 3945: 3944: 3943: 3941: 3940: 3939: 3938: 3925: 3895:Masterpiece2000 3803:Masterpiece2000 3747:Masterpiece2000 3641:Masterpiece2000 3628: 3623: 3617: 3591:Masterpiece2000 3535: 3530: 3524: 3364: 3359: 3353: 3327: 3322: 3316: 3304: 3299: 3293: 3270: 3265: 3259: 3241: 3236: 3230: 3199: 3194: 3188: 3133: 3128: 3122: 3105: 3084:? Really, this 3025:, was a woman ( 2802: 2611:WP:IDON'TLIKEIT 2559:is a Peruvian ( 2395:WP:IDON'TLIKEIT 2387:totalitarianism 2334: 2315: 2230: 2225: 2219: 2163: 2158: 2152: 2077: 2020: 2001: 1996: 1990: 1967: 1962: 1956: 1912: 1907: 1901: 1876: 1871: 1865: 1756:Józef Piłsudski 1617:attention spans 1466:Józef Piłsudski 1384: 1379: 1373: 1300:Józef Piłsudski 1233: 1228: 1222: 1147: 1142: 1136: 1101: 1096: 1090: 981: 976: 970: 793: 788: 782: 669: 664: 658: 540: 535: 529: 508: 461: 456: 450: 161: 133: 111: 98: 63:Nom restarted ( 61: 58:Józef Piłsudski 34: 22: 21: 20: 12: 11: 5: 3948: 3946: 3937: 3936: 3921: 3920: 3919: 3918: 3917: 3916: 3915: 3914: 3913: 3912: 3911: 3910: 3909: 3908: 3907: 3906: 3905: 3870: 3869: 3868: 3867: 3866: 3865: 3864: 3863: 3862: 3861: 3860: 3859: 3858: 3857: 3856: 3855: 3826: 3825: 3824: 3823: 3822: 3821: 3820: 3819: 3818: 3817: 3816: 3815: 3814: 3813: 3786: 3785: 3784: 3783: 3782: 3781: 3780: 3779: 3778: 3777: 3776: 3775: 3774: 3773: 3731: 3730: 3729: 3728: 3727: 3726: 3725: 3724: 3723: 3722: 3695: 3694: 3670: 3669: 3652: 3651: 3633: 3632: 3616: 3602: 3601: 3544: 3543: 3542: 3541: 3540: 3539: 3523: 3499: 3498: 3497: 3496: 3479: 3476: 3473: 3470: 3467: 3464: 3461: 3454: 3453: 3452: 3449: 3433: 3432: 3415: 3414: 3413: 3412: 3391: 3390: 3375: 3374: 3373: 3372: 3371: 3370: 3369: 3368: 3352: 3315: 3312: 3311: 3310: 3309: 3308: 3292: 3278: 3277: 3276: 3275: 3274: 3258: 3249: 3248: 3247: 3246: 3245: 3229: 3207: 3206: 3205: 3204: 3203: 3187: 3173: 3172: 3148:Timothy Snyder 3140: 3139: 3138: 3137: 3121: 3115: 3114: 3047: 3046: 3045: 3044: 3009: 3008: 3007: 3006: 2977: 2976: 2975: 2974: 2940: 2933: 2919: 2896: 2889: 2883: 2882: 2881: 2880: 2863: 2862: 2845: 2842: 2834: 2833: 2819: 2818: 2817: 2816: 2815: 2814: 2813: 2812: 2811: 2810: 2809: 2808: 2807: 2806: 2790: 2747: 2746: 2745: 2744: 2743: 2742: 2741: 2740: 2739: 2738: 2703: 2702: 2701: 2700: 2699: 2698: 2697: 2696: 2675: 2674: 2673: 2672: 2671: 2670: 2651: 2650: 2649: 2648: 2622: 2614: 2598:user: Halibutt 2553: 2543: 2542: 2524: 2510: 2485: 2481: 2433:; his brother 2391:user: Halibutt 2378:Timothy Snyder 2365: 2364: 2353: 2352: 2342: 2323: 2307: 2306: 2305: 2304: 2303: 2302: 2301: 2300: 2299: 2273: 2272: 2271: 2270: 2269: 2268: 2235: 2234: 2218: 2211: 2210: 2188: 2170: 2169: 2168: 2167: 2151: 2145: 2144: 2114: 2097: 2085: 2064: 2047: 2030: 2012: 2011: 2010: 2009: 2008: 2007: 2006: 2005: 1989: 1955: 1935: 1934: 1933: 1932: 1931: 1930: 1929: 1928: 1927: 1926: 1900: 1887: 1864: 1845: 1844: 1843: 1842: 1827: 1806: 1805: 1804: 1803: 1802: 1801: 1800: 1799: 1798: 1797: 1796: 1795: 1794: 1793: 1792: 1791: 1790: 1789: 1788: 1787: 1786: 1785: 1784: 1733: 1678:recommendation 1586: 1585: 1564: 1547: 1517: 1516: 1515: 1514: 1513: 1512: 1473: 1453: 1433:lists him as " 1425: 1405:lists him as " 1391: 1390: 1389: 1388: 1372: 1363: 1362: 1345: 1344: 1327: 1326: 1292: 1291: 1290: 1289: 1288: 1287: 1255: 1252: 1249: 1242: 1238: 1237: 1221: 1210: 1209: 1192: 1191: 1171: 1170: 1169: 1168: 1152: 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3421: 3417: 3416: 3411: 3407: 3403: 3399: 3395: 3394: 3393: 3392: 3389: 3385: 3381: 3377: 3376: 3367: 3362: 3356: 3350: 3349: 3347: 3344: 3341: 3339: 3335: 3332: 3331: 3330: 3325: 3319: 3313: 3307: 3302: 3296: 3290: 3289: 3287: 3282: 3281: 3279: 3273: 3268: 3262: 3256: 3255: 3253: 3252: 3250: 3244: 3239: 3233: 3227: 3223: 3222: 3220: 3216: 3215: 3212: 3208: 3202: 3197: 3191: 3184: 3183: 3180: 3179: 3177: 3176: 3175: 3174: 3171: 3167: 3163: 3159: 3156: 3152: 3149: 3145: 3142: 3141: 3136: 3131: 3125: 3119: 3118: 3117: 3116: 3113: 3110: 3103: 3099: 3097: 3091: 3087: 3083: 3079: 3075: 3071: 3067: 3063: 3059: 3056: 3052: 3049: 3048: 3043: 3039: 3035: 3031: 3029: 3024: 3023: 3018: 3013: 3012: 3011: 3010: 3005: 3001: 2997: 2993: 2989: 2988:the publisher 2985: 2981: 2980: 2979: 2978: 2973: 2969: 2965: 2961: 2957: 2953: 2949: 2945: 2941: 2938: 2934: 2931: 2927: 2924: 2920: 2917: 2913: 2909: 2905: 2901: 2897: 2894: 2890: 2887: 2886: 2885: 2884: 2879: 2875: 2871: 2867: 2866: 2865: 2864: 2861: 2860: 2856: 2852: 2847: 2846: 2843: 2839: 2837: 2836: 2832: 2830: 2824: 2821: 2820: 2805: 2800: 2797: 2794: 2789: 2785: 2784:Digwuren case 2781: 2777: 2776: 2775: 2771: 2767: 2763: 2759: 2758: 2757: 2756: 2755: 2754: 2753: 2752: 2751: 2750: 2749: 2748: 2737: 2733: 2729: 2725: 2721: 2717: 2713: 2712: 2711: 2710: 2709: 2708: 2707: 2706: 2705: 2704: 2695: 2691: 2687: 2683: 2682: 2681: 2680: 2679: 2678: 2677: 2676: 2669: 2665: 2661: 2657: 2656: 2655: 2654: 2653: 2652: 2647: 2643: 2639: 2635: 2631: 2627: 2623: 2620: 2615: 2612: 2608: 2604: 2599: 2595: 2591: 2587: 2582: 2578: 2574: 2570: 2566: 2562: 2558: 2554: 2551: 2547: 2546: 2545: 2544: 2541: 2537: 2533: 2529: 2525: 2522: 2518: 2514: 2511: 2509: 2505: 2501: 2497: 2493: 2489: 2486: 2482: 2479: 2475: 2472: 2468: 2464: 2460: 2456: 2452: 2448: 2444: 2440: 2436: 2432: 2431: 2426: 2422: 2418: 2415: 2414: 2413: 2412: 2408: 2404: 2400: 2396: 2392: 2388: 2383: 2379: 2375: 2374:Norman Davies 2371: 2361: 2358: 2357: 2356: 2350: 2346: 2343: 2341: 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1775: 1770: 1766: 1765: 1764: 1761: 1757: 1753: 1749: 1748: 1747: 1743: 1739: 1734: 1731: 1726: 1725: 1724: 1721: 1717: 1713: 1709: 1705: 1701: 1697: 1696: 1695: 1691: 1687: 1683: 1679: 1675: 1671: 1670: 1669: 1666: 1661: 1660: 1659: 1655: 1651: 1646: 1645: 1644: 1641: 1636: 1635: 1634: 1630: 1626: 1622: 1618: 1614: 1613: 1612: 1609: 1605: 1604: 1603: 1599: 1595: 1590: 1589: 1588: 1587: 1584: 1581: 1577: 1573: 1570: 1569: 1565: 1563: 1559: 1555: 1551: 1548: 1546: 1542: 1538: 1534: 1530: 1526: 1522: 1519: 1518: 1511: 1508: 1504: 1500: 1499: 1498: 1494: 1490: 1486: 1482: 1478: 1474: 1471: 1467: 1463: 1462: 1457: 1456:Norman Davies 1454: 1452: 1448: 1444: 1440: 1436: 1432: 1431: 1426: 1424: 1420: 1416: 1412: 1408: 1404: 1403: 1399: 1395: 1394: 1393: 1392: 1387: 1382: 1376: 1370: 1369:Replied there 1367: 1366: 1365: 1364: 1361: 1358: 1354: 1350: 1347: 1346: 1343: 1340: 1336: 1332: 1329: 1328: 1325: 1321: 1317: 1313: 1312: 1307: 1306: 1301: 1297: 1294: 1293: 1286: 1282: 1278: 1273: 1269: 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