1084:"Discussions had taken place between Tayler and his superiors about disarming the three regiments of Bengal Native Infantry stationed in Dinapore, and Governor-General Charles Canning delegated responsibility for the decision to Major General George Lloyd, military commander of the Dinapore division": Sorry, but the source does not support this. The outline is supported, but not the detail - a common problem in this article. The source has (unless I've missed something on the page given): "Not a British officer, except the major-general, doubted that these Europeans could have disarmed and controlled the sepoys, had the attempt been made at the proper time. The Calcutta inhabitants had petitioned the governor-general to disarm the native regiments at Dinapoor, and the officers of the Queen's regiments at that station had all along advocated a similar measure; but General Lloyd, like many other Company's officers, was proud of the sepoys, and trusted them to the last ; and Viscount Canning placed reliance on his experience, to determine whether and when to effect this disarming. This reliance ended in unfortunate results." There is no mention here of Tayler (he is mentioned earlier on the page, but not in connection with this) or of any discussions, nor of the number of regiments, nor of them being Bengal Native Infantry, nor any delegation to Lloyd.
1017:"Although an attempt was made to smoke the men out of the house by making a large fire of furniture and chilli peppers, a last-minute shift in wind direction blew the smoke away from the house": In the source, we have "The rebels made an attempt later to smoke out the garrison, by bringing quantities of straw and bamboos, which they lighted, and into which they threw chillies (red peppers); but thanks to the kindly offices of the wind, which shifted at a crucial moment, the danger to the bungalow was averted." This may seem like nit-picking, but the source does not mention furniture, but says that straw and bamboo was used to light the fire, and then chillies were added. It does not explicitly say a large fire, and while I concede that "quantities" may mean a large number, technically (and particularly in "Victorian-Speak") this does not have to be so. I'm afraid this carelessness with the source material does not fill me with confidence if we can stretch such a simple issue; it also shows the dangers of interpreting older books.
1020:"The mutineers and rebel forces did not attempt another charge on the building, although its occupants expected an attack at any moment during the siege.": This is sourced to an issue of the London Gazette, across five pages, pp. 3418-22. The only possible mention which supports this is on p 3422. Unless I’ve missed it, although the charge is mentioned, this statement is not supported at all. Again, it could be argued that the absence of another charge in the report implies that no further one took place (although I'd be uncomfortable stretching it so far) but it does not even give the vaguest hint that another attack was expected. I would also note that this is basically a primary source as it reprints letters (I assume official reports) from commanding officers and the like (in this case, a report from Wake); these five pages are used several times and I have not attempted to verify any other statements, but the information for which they are cited looks uncontroversial and would not be a problem.
1026:"and McDonnell exposed himself to heavy fire to cut a rope that was preventing a boat from making its escape, saving the lives of 35 soldiers": The source is a little vague but supports this; however, it's not clear that he cut a rope preventing the boat making its escape; the source says he went "up to the rudder, and with considerable difficulty cut through the lashing which secured it to the side of the boat. On the lashing being cut, the boat obeyed the helm, and thus thirty-five European Soldiers escaped certain death." My reading of this would be that he cut away the rudder, but the problem here is that I'm interpreting; without more information, it is not clear what this means and we are in danger of having to interpret primary sources. Also, the source does not support he or Mangles being magistrates of friends of Wake.
1023:"During the retreat from Arrah, Ross Mangles and William Fraser McDonell (civilian magistrates, and personal friends of Wake, who had volunteered to serve with Dunbar's expedition) earned the Victoria Cross—Mangles, despite being wounded, carried a wounded soldier from the 37th Regiment of Foot for several miles while under fire": The reference supports Mangles being awarded the VC, that he volunteered to serve with Dunbar's force, and that he carried a wounded soldier from the 37th "under a murderous fire" while being wounded. However, it makes no mention of his occupation, or his friendship with Wake. And McDonell is not mentioned at all in the given source, but in the one cited next (this could be sorted by moving references around a little: make sure the reference covers all the text that it comes after).
1078:"At the outbreak of the Indian Mutiny these were the only "native" troops in Shahabad district. They had been recruited entirely from Shahabad district and were loyal to the local zamindar (chieftain or landlord) Kunwar Singh": To me, this is unsupported by the source. I imagine that the part which we are citing is "And besides all this, Koer Singh, the greatest landholder (or Zemindar) of the district, who was the most influential man in the neighbourhood among the native soldiers, was strongly suspected to be plotting against the English." There is nothing else even remotely connected, but I do not feel this supports that they were the only "native" troops in the Shahabad district, or that they were from that area. I also note the different spelling of zamindar.
106:, of between 2,000 and 3,000 mutinying professional soldiers combined with an estimated 8,000 irregular combatants. This article has been copy-edited by the GOCE, and it has passed a GA review and an A-Class review from the Military History Wikiproject. I make no apologies for pushing this through because it's been a pleasure to develop this article - it made an excellent procrastination project while I was meant to be doing something else (and editing this article has led to me purchasing a very fine, 110-year-old copy of one of the books that is used as a source!). I'll be available to respond to this review over the coming weeks, and as my previous engagement with this shows (in the previous reviews) I usually respond within 24 hours. Regards
908:"The European population in Arrah spent that night at Littledale's house, and the following morning a meeting was held at the house of Herwald Wake, the magistrate of Shahabad district. During this meeting it was decided that the European women and children were to be sent by boat to Dinapore, escorted by armed members of the European male population, where they would be taken into the care of the 10th Regiment of Foot—this decision was acted upon the same day": The given reference mentions that non-officials were to make their way on boat or horseback to Dinapore, but nothing about women and children, and nothing about this meeting, or when it was acted upon.
899:"Stationed in Dinapore, 25 miles (40.2 km) away, were three regiments of Bengal Native Infantry—the 7th, 8th and 40th Regiments. They had been recruited entirely from Shahabad district and were loyal to the local zamindar (chieftain or landlord) Kunwar Singh (also known as Koor, Coer, Koer, or Kooer Sing).": The reference given for these statements supports "three regiments of native infantry" (again, not Bengal) and where they were recruited from, and their loyalty to "Goer Sing". But the regiment numbers and the variant names for Kunwar Singh (the only name given is Goer Sing) are not supported.
896:"In addition, there was a local police force and a jail holding between 400 and 500 inmates, with 150 armed prison guards. A large number of sepoys from regiments that had been disbanded had returned to their homes in Shahabad district and the population also included many retired sepoys living on their pensions." One of the three sources gives "three of four hundred prisoners", another "two or three hundred". There is nothing about disbanded regiments returning, nor retired sepoys. It does give the number of Sepoys in Arrah before the siege, a number I would have thought was important.
889:"The town of Arrah, headquarters of Shahabad district, had a population at the time that largely consisted of Bengal Native Infantry sepoys, British and European employees of the East India Company and the East Indian Railway Company, and their respective families." I can find attribution for Arrah containing Europeans and Sepoys (although not "Bengal Native Infantry"), but not that Arrah was the headquarters, nor that anyone worked for the East India Company or the East Indian Railway Company. Arguably, the references support the
750:
unfortunate problem I've encountered before while researching events during the Indian Mutiny, which I suspect is down to the general chaotic situation at the time. As for modern views, the latest work I could find that covered the siege in any detail was from 1910 - there are passing mentions (maybe a sentence long) in later works but many modern books I looked at, about Kunwar Singh for example, don't even mention the siege. I only found out about the siege myself by accident while I was correcting errors in the
902:"Singh, who was around 80Â years of age, had a number of grievances against the East India Company regarding deprivation of his lands and income, and was described as "the high-souled chief of a warlike tribe, who had been reduced to a nonentity by the yoke of a foreign invader" by George Trevelyan in his 1864 book The Competition Wallah.": The given reference supports his age, and that he was not too happy with "the yoke of a foreign invader" but does not support his specific grievances. The quotation is as given.
597:: this is a very stable, well-written, and well-sourced article on an exciting historical topic, if not a rather crucial one for British and Indian history. Your narrative style is also a pleasure to read. Bravo! My only suggestion is to directly attribute the quote in the last sentence of the "aftermath" section to the author Abhay Kumar. Generally speaking quotations should always be attributed in the text of the article, to avoid any confusion as to who is being quoted.
981:
of much older works - the first result in that search you linked was a 2006 reprint of a 1912 book - and the single Google Books result from the 21st century from my search contains only a short mention, focusing instead on Kunwar Singh's wider activities. Therefore I'm not sure that the request for a modern history perspective is actionable (and I'm still aware that I sound like an ass, for which I can only say sorry - it's not intentional!).
968:, thanks for your time. I've now gone through the article again, moving citations to the specific statements they support where appropriate. I've also added to the Aftermath section - it did already indicate what Kunwar Singh's forces did next, so I added a little bit of further background. I must address the issue with modern sourcing, however - even in the search link you have provided, there is nothing that gives any detailed analysis.
905:"On 8 June, Arthur Littledale, a judge working in Arrah, received a letter from William Tayler, the commissioner of Patna district, warning him that an outbreak of mutiny from the Bengal Native Infantry units in Dinapore was to be expected": The given reference supports the sending of a letter on 8 June, but not who sent it, to Mr W Tayler. It mentions "an insurrection of natives" but not the Bengal Native Infantry.
928:
from 1910" and that modern books do not cover it in any detail. But the more I think about this, the less comfortable I am that we are not using ANY modern general histories. For background, if nothing else, these are surely essential, and I would imagine some of them contain something about the siege as well, even if just a sentence.
980:
only contains the image that I've used in the article's infobox, without any other information. I really don't want to sound like I'm being an ass - it's just that there's no modern writing about this subject. All the in-depth results that appear, at first glance, to be new books are in fact reprints
919:
I stopped there. It is possible that wrong page numbers have been cited, but there was enough that matches to make me think that the pages are correct. A possible problem is that some references are used to cover several sentences, and they are not strong enough to do that. Referencing smaller chunks
877:
I checked the first part of background and there is a lot of unattributed material. From a glance, this repeats in a few other places, and I get the impression that the references were added after the text was written (but I could be wrong). I think everything that is in the article can be attributed
1093:
in the sources. But the citations are not doing what they are claimed to do at the moment, and this is a big problem. It needs going through almost line by line and checking that the information in the article is definitely supported by the reference given. The nominator may want to get some help in
927:
I would imagine that a lot of the more general background, such as the information that the Bengal
Infantry were the unit involved, is available in a general history of the "Indian Mutiny". The nominator made the point above that "the latest work I could find that covered the siege in any detail was
885:
The first references cover a substantial number of sentences. But from these references, I cannot verify quite a few statements: "On 10 May 1857, a mutiny by the 3rd Bengal Light
Cavalry, a Bengal Army unit stationed in Meerut, triggered the Indian Mutiny, which quickly spread through the Bengal
872:
did a spot check above but I'd already had a quick look and found a few problems with spot checks. I think they are solvable, and as Cas didn't find any problems above, it is not throughout the whole article. All the sources are books available online, which makes checking quite easy. However...
749:
Other than the most basic details that I have already added to the article and the information about Kunwar Singh, I have been unable to find anything significant about the besiegers. Even the first-hand accounts at the time don't contain any detail such as names or precise numbers - it's an
1111:-- it's been a week since Sarastro's last posting reiterating his concerns and I haven't seen any progress; regrettably, I think we'll need to archive this to allow the nominator to make a thorough check of the referencing, after which I hope to see it renominated. Cheers,
1094:
on this one, otherwise I can see this being too big a job. I am quite happy to check again, but the more problems that we are finding, the more checking will need doing to clear this for verification. There may come a point when that is no longer worth doing in this FAC.
923:
It could be argued that some of the above information does not require a source as it is well-known. However, I did not know the information, and neither will the majority of readers. The standard of referencing at FA is such that all information like this must be
1029:
I'm also slightly concerned that we may have a touch of close paraphrasing. This is very borderline, and the only instance I've found, but I'd just feel a little happier if the structure and wording had fewer similarities to the source: Article: ...who had
911:
I also noticed, a little worryingly, that the
Sieveking book is pretty much paraphrasing large chunks of the Halls book, at least for this section. I'm not sure we should be using a source which relies so heavily on another source (which we are also
432:
The last paragraph of the "First relief attempt" section (starting "During the evening of 29 July the besieged") seems a little out of sequence chronologically, I wonder if it would work better if it and parts of the paragraph above it were swapped
935:
Following on from this, I realise that there is nothing in the
Aftermath section about later events in the Mutiny; i.e. how it ended. The general reader will very likely not know what came next, and a few sentences to tell them would be a great
1054:
with the Force ... The Force fell into an
Ambuscade on the night of the 29th of July, 1857, and, during the retreat on the next morning, Mr. Mangles, with signal gallantry and generous self-devotion, and notwithstanding that he had himself
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Presidency": Other than the month of May, the rest is not supported by the three refs given; nothing about Bengal, the date of the 10th, nothing about which units were involved, nothing about how it spread. These need attribution.
723:
Are there any modern works which give an opinion on the siege? Have views changed from the time of
Trevelyan? For instance, I find it interesting that the surviving building is now a museum to Kunwar Singh, albeit in name only.
1088:
I'm afraid my oppose stands. There are still big issues here, and the closer I look, the unhappier I am feeling with how this article has been sourced. I have no doubt that it is accurate and that all the information here is
929:
944:
for the moment, and need convincing that the article is fully sourced before I strike this. Feel free to argue or to explain if I'm being rather stupid and have missed something. Sorry to do this so late in the nomination.
439:
Generally no need to include "access dates" for documents that don't change such as books so I'd suggest removing it where you have included it in the reference section (please see the {{cite book}} template documentation
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102:. It was an eight day long siege during which 68 men, a mix of civilians and soldiers, successfully defended a two-storey, 50 by 50Â ft (15 by 15Â m) building against a force, under the command of
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539:– Thanks for writing such an enjoyable article on a topic which I read many moons ago while in school. My only quibble is that the Present day section be merged with the Aftermath.
1081:
Variant names of Kunwar Singh: three are referenced to
Sievking, which suggests that this was a rather ignorant lack of consistency, rather than he was known by different names.
932:
throws up several mentions of Arrah (I haven't checked the quality of the books, but at least one is an encyclopaedia). I think modern works are essential for context.
878:
from the sources (I recognised several incidents mentioned later in the article when I checked the references), but at the moment I don't think it quite matches up.
1014:"For their actions during the siege, Wake was made a Companion of the Order of the Bath": Source does not give reasons, merely confirms that he received the award.
693:
Since the review took place, I have removed one image and moved another from the article's body to the
Infobox. No other changes to the images have taken place.
999:: I checked the issues I had previously identified, and these seem to have been, in the main, sorted. I did some further spot-checks and found further issues.
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is that unit's proper name so that's why I went with it. It probably seems like I'm being awkward but what can I say - I'm a geek! Regards
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I believe this is your first FAC. In that case, I think all we are waiting for is a spot-check of sources. My only other queries:
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868:: I'm going to recuse as coordinator from this one because I have concerns over the sourcing. I see that
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665:. I am not sure if this is sufficient, however, and I've already added a note at WT:FAC. Regards
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In short, the referencing needs a considerable amount of work. Therefore, I'm afraid I have to
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OK, just checking as it's always better to make sure! We just need a source spot check then.
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has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see
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Thanks for that - I've followed your suggestion and replaced the parentheses. Regards
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This article concentrates mainly on the besieged. Is there anything on the besiegers?
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and yes, it's my first FAC. If I've made any mistakes feel free to point them out!
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637:: Have I missed an image review anywhere? If not, one can be requested at WT:FAC.
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This article is about the Siege of Arrah, an event that occurred during the
131:"(now 58 (Eyre's) Battery ...": MOS recommends against nested parentheses.
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141:. I've looked at the changes made since I reviewed this for A-class.
335:
GBooks links don't need accessdates and should be trimmed to ID/page
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You could perhaps replace the outer set of parentheses with dashes?
39:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
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Earwig tool reveals no issues with close paraphrase / plagiarism
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Otherwise a made a few minor (hopefully helpful) MOS tweaks
423:- this article looks quite good to me, only a few nitpicks:
310:
Be consistent in whether newspaper citations end in a period
1038:, carried a wounded soldier from the 37th Regiment of Foot
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is only a paragraph and does not include key details and
123:. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (
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If the images have not changed, that would be fine.
403:- I believe I have addressed your concerns. Regards
260:
A couple of footnotes use "pp." but should use "p."
1168:The above discussion is preserved as an archive.
1068:a wounded soldier of Her Majesty's 37th Regiment
893:having family there, but nothing more than that.
41:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates
43:. No further edits should be made to this page.
841:FN 41 - used once, material faithful to source
838:FN 24 - used once, material faithful to source
835:FN 20 - used once, material faithful to source
832:FN 8 - used twice, material faithful to source
576:- I've made the change you suggested. Regards
1174:No further edits should be made to this page.
1147:template in place on the talk page until the
1034:with Dunbar's expedition... Mangles, despite
619:I've made that change, thanks for your time!
29:The following is an archived discussion of a
8:
972:is an analysis of a Rudyard Kipling story;
18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates
494:Those changes look fine to me. Adding my
480:- I believe I have rectified things.
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209:. I went over this in detail at the
661:An image review took place during
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512:Fantastic, thanks for your time!
1070:, after binding up his wounds
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812:Earwig's copyvio is clear.
31:featured article nomination
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663:the MilHist A-Class review
360:Best is missing location.
64:) 11:14, 16 February 2017
436:Perhaps wikilink Lucknow?
224:Penny for your thoughts?
190:Penny for your thoughts?
1171:Please do not modify it.
974:this encyclopaedia entry
845:Spot check all in order
213:and was very impressed.
36:Please do not modify it.
1057:been previously wounded
1072:under a murderous fire
1052:volunteered and served
752:Bengal Native Infantry
285:FN51 should use endash
256:- spotchecks not done
211:MilHist A-class review
145:are my edits. - Dank (
930:A google books search
1050:Source: Mr. Mangles
1032:volunteered to serve
866:Comments on sourcing
997:Further spot-checks
498:now for promotion.
163:58 (Eyre's) Battery
139:standard disclaimer
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472:All fixed. Thanks
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254:Source review
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137:on prose per
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100:Indian Mutiny
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1127:Closing note
1126:
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552:
544:
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500:Anotherclown
495:
476:Anotherclown
452:Anotherclown
419:
418:
394:
253:
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147:push to talk
134:
125:push to talk
120:
119:
104:Kunwar Singh
97:
80:
49:
47:
35:
28:
970:This result
924:referenced.
920:might help.
217:HJÂ Mitchell
183:HJÂ Mitchell
1044:under fire
983:Exemplo347
960:Greetings
792:Exemplo347
756:Exemplo347
695:Exemplo347
667:Exemplo347
621:Exemplo347
578:Exemplo347
514:Exemplo347
482:Exemplo347
405:Exemplo347
399:Nikkimaria
380:Exemplo347
362:Nikkimaria
344:Exemplo347
319:Exemplo347
294:Exemplo347
269:Exemplo347
238:Exemplo347
167:Exemplo347
108:Exemplo347
83:Exemplo347
1135:WP:FAC/ar
1131:candidate
1096:Sarastro1
1091:somewhere
1001:Sarastro1
978:this book
964:Sarastro1
947:Sarastro1
891:Europeans
847:Cas Liber
814:Cas Liber
786:Sarastro1
770:Sarastro1
754:article.
745:Sarastro1
726:Sarastro1
681:Sarastro1
657:Sarastro1
639:Sarastro1
1153:Ian Rose
1129:: This
1113:Ian Rose
870:Casliber
857:contribs
824:contribs
572:Vensatry
545:Vensatry
420:Comments
121:Comments
54:Ian Rose
50:archived
1061:carried
912:using).
782:Thanks
595:Support
537:Support
496:support
433:around?
395:Thanks
207:Support
135:Support
1042:while
942:oppose
553:(talk)
378:Fixed
342:Fixed
317:Fixed
292:Fixed
267:Fixed
58:FACBot
936:help.
143:These
16:<
1157:talk
1117:talk
1100:talk
1005:talk
987:talk
951:talk
851:talk
818:talk
796:talk
774:talk
760:talk
730:talk
699:talk
685:talk
671:talk
643:talk
625:talk
582:talk
518:talk
504:talk
486:talk
456:talk
442:here
409:talk
384:talk
366:talk
348:talk
323:talk
298:talk
273:talk
242:talk
171:talk
112:talk
87:talk
62:talk
56:via
1149:bot
127:)
52:by
1159:)
1145:}}
1139:{{
1119:)
1102:)
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1007:)
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67:.
33:.
1155:(
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949:(
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541:—
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