1745:
articles outside US/UK/DE would have to convert using alternate sources. My guess is that SHIPS uses measuringworth.com in order to standardize references and presentation across their articles. On the subject of measuringworth.com, the website is supported by the
Economic History Association, a serious scholarly association with a strong governing board, a few conferences, and a good (though not great) journal. I happen to be a member of the association (though not one of any consequence). They don't provide too many calculators outside of the US and the UK (China, Japan and exchange rates are included). One advantage measuringworth provides is a transparent conversion scheme. All (almost all) of their conversion pages have a short paper explaining the methodology and data sources--helpful background for a curious or adversarial reader/editor.
485:, p. 359: "Use of the hyphen is far from standardized. It is optional in most cases, a matter of taste, judgment and style sense. But the fewer hyphens the better; use them only when not using them causes confusion." Tony1 prefers no hyphen for these even in running text (last I saw at WT:MOS), and I expect "Minas Geraes-class battleships" is liable to be misread as some kind of modified "Geraes-class". There's an ongoing discussion at
1640:- this kind of detail is valuable, it is essentially editorial comment by the article author, and is much better suited to a footnote than to the main article text. The main article should avoid discussing differences between the sources editors have chosen to use, particularly if this dispute is not itself discussed in reliable sources.
1584:- they weren't really a shock to the navies themselves, were they? And what is meant by "abrupt shock"? This should be re-worded to indicate more clearly that the strength of these ships vastly exceeded those in the Argentinian and Chilean navies, or perhaps that their strength shocked the navy commands or hierarchies - or both.
1539:
assuming I have not done so already, and it doesn't look like I have. Interesting article, I enjoyed reading it. I did have one question though: in the section discussing reaction to the awarding of the battleships to the United States you have the line "The Times took a different tack...", but I can
1504:
PS Some great pics, but why so small? I boosted one from the default 220 to 240, but up to 260 would be fine for a few if they have the res. Do you really like left-siders? Also, if you have the latitude, consider placing higher rather than lower in each section (avoids white space bottom of sections
882:
Did some ces but "New
Zealand's Evening Post was more analytical in its approach to the issue." seem's to overstep into editorial statement as teh only ref is the article itself; it appears to be placed as Knowledge's endorsement of the punditry being more sensible; It may be but probably not for us
1744:
would give accurate conversions for this year, as the US has especially good price data (or good extrapolations) ranging pretty far back. Other countries (Russia & Italy come to mind) would not be conducive to a smooth conversion from an arbitrary point in the past to the present day and SHIPS
1405:
Try to shield readers from bad
English in sources, here apparently in translation from the Spanish: the body which chose the final design, said: "The reason why the United States' tender was lower than the English is that steel for construction work and armor-plating is a great deal cheaper in the
768:
I regret to say that I had not contacted any body to ascertain the identity of the artist; I made the assumption based on the numerous reorganisations the publication has gone under. I agree with
Elcobbola that the image should be moved to Knowledge unless contact was attempted with the owner of
311:
This change gets around the awkward doubling-up of "class" and "group" which mean similar but not the same things. It avoids having to link "group" to "Ship class" (which is a most specific thing, and not just a group. The word "class" can now be linked to "Ship class" which merely qualifies what
1790:
For the US (and especially the UK, as the inflation template simply pulls figures from measuringworth) the two are identical, with the only difference being auto-updating. Since the updating is yearly, I am inclined to view the choice between the two as a matter of preference and presentation.
402:
The wording that I've come to use for class articles is like this: The Océan class ironclads were a group of three wooden-hulled, armored frigates... It repeats the exact title of the article which is essential. The close conjunction of class, which should be linked, with group, isn't great, but
245:
Just got Ed's email offering me a co-nom ... I'm going to grab it for one of these 3 articles (Moreno, Rivadavia, and the class article), might as well be this one. I bought two sources, got one ILL, and have generally checked the article against the sources and done some of the writing. - Dank
815:
which states that commissioned or freelance work belongs to the artist unless otherwise agreed and that work done as a condition for employment belongs to the employer. So, without an attribution, I'm inclined to think that this is out of copyright in the UK as it was likely done by a staff
989:"Despite a British attempt to allow the Armstrong Whitworth-Vickers team to lower their price by $ 570,000," Argentine Pesos and US Dollars use the same symbol. Accordingly this article shouldn't be using an unmodified/unlinked "$ ". (Note I picked one example of the problem here)
1768:
Thanks
Protonk. I don't have a preference, Jay; if we use a static figure, we could always run a bot to update the figures in future years. I have some reservations about using a template that works for some countries but not others, but I'll use it if there's consensus. - Dank
1423:
I was always told in my college classes to start it off with an ellipsis if I was quoting from the middle of a sentence. I can change it if you would like; it's not a big deal. The four dots are done—thanks, I wasn't sure how to format it when I was copying in the quote.
1406:
United States than in
England." So, do this: the body that chose the final design said the reason the American tender was lower than that of the English was that "steel for construction work and armor-plating is a great deal cheaper in the United States than in England".
711:: PD-UK-Unknown requires "reasonable enquiry". "Unlikely to have records in the publications' several reorganizations" may be true, but you have to put forth the effort to find out. What organizations were contacted? (Moving to en.wiki would resolve the issue.)
1815:, but I'm not a template guy; how do I get the current year to show up automatically in the text? (I wouldn't want to say "in current dollars", because the reader would logically assume that was "current" when I wrote it, not when they're reading it.) - Dank (
1637:
While both
Schenia and Livermore explicitly state that the commission threw out all the bids twice, neither makes it clear when this occurred. Livermore only goes into detail about one of these occasions, of which it is not clear if it is the second or third
197:
First, the competition to simply build the two ships was fiercer than a lion defending her cubs. Famous shipbuilders from five major countries vied for it, and each country's government did as much as they could to assist. Eventually a
1524:
I hate left side images. :-) I placed some lower in sections to space them out, as the sections aren't equal in length. I just increased the size of some of the images as well. Thanks for the comments, Tony; they're much appreciated!
640:
218:
125:
202:, the United States' Fore River, managed to overcome a stunning amount of obstacles to win the contracts, which engendered scathing criticism from Britain and Germany. You would think this was enough drama, right? Read on.
1791:
Since I suspect that SHIPS (like MILHIST) places a premium on standard presentation, my guess would be that a source used by the majority of their articles would be preferred, but I don't know for certain in this case.
1056:, you never know what you're going to get, I have to check the page every few months and ask when I have questions. If we were talking about a word rather than a symbol, the general principle would be
558:
As far as I'm concerned all of the class articles should have hyphens as they're all compound adjectives, which should be hyphenated, with few exceptions. But I rather like hyphens; I'm rather odd that
747:
708:
1043:
Hmm, I tend to agree with
Courcelles here, but yay for style guides. I'm fine with the note, although it could benefit from increased visibility if it was moved into the infobox...
1695:- you might want to give a bit more context here - e.g. why did Brazil sell the ship - and discuss the Argentine view that their own dreadnoughts were therefore no longer required.
194:
class did almost nothing but show the flag during their actual careers, but that isn't the interesting part (thankfully); it's what happened before they were commissioned.
1202:"the United States' Fore River"—could we avoid the ungainly possessive? Either just remove the apostrophe or "the American company Fore River". Then we get United States'
1082:"...Argentina alleged to the United States' State Department that... " Perhaps use the full name, United States Department of State to avoid that awkward 'States' State'?
992:
Should we link any ambiguous term or symbol every time it occurs in every article for the benefit of the people who don't read top to bottom? If so, we'll need to change
1097:"The two ships of the Rivadavia class were 594 feet 9 inches (181.28 m) overall and 585 feet (178 m) between perpendiculars." What is this? I'm 99% sure it is length.
1832:
I've made some of the more minor copyedits myself. Overall, a well-written and referenced article, and an interesting read. I'd like to see the issues above addressed.
216:
Really intriguing story, albeit a muddled and confusing one. Hope you enjoy your read-through; as always, any and all comments are welcomed and encouraged. The article
1167:
As usual, I don't agree with much of MOSNUM, or the (on-wiki or real-life) primacy of the U.S. Dollar, but what else is new? Nothing left wrong with this article.
95:
90:
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963:
Who is Seward W. Livermore? With him being a red-link, it would be nice to know who he is...is he a scholar, a naval
Admiral, etc? We're left with no idea.
1779:
Well, in this case it will work for all countries, since all prices are stated in one currency. You should use the function, which updates itself annually.
1706:
Changed to "were sent". A single lucky plane or torpedo could take out a battleship, then and now, so ships tended to travel in packs in wartime. - Dank (
82:
1251:
When a ship is removed from a naval register, it is "struck" or "stricken" from it. I highly doubt that a common layman would know that, hence the link.
47:
489:
over our policy (not guideline) on italics in article titles; let's see how that turns out, because italics would affect the hyphen, I think. - Dank (
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966:"Historian" wouldn't be inaccurate, but Ed has the book. I added "historian" but feel free to make it more specific if you like, Ed. - Dank (
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37:
17:
1420:
Biles quote: why start with ellipsis dots? The lower-case "i" says it, yes? After "government", put four unspaced points: "government....".
337:
Nope. No one says "The Iowa" (etc.) meaning "The group of 6 ships in the Iowa class"; it would be way too easy to confuse that with the
23:
1320:
To qualify it. Quoting it without saying who said it would make it seem like the article was promoting they were the best battleships.
1303:
810:
147:
507:-class battleships"; overall consistency may be too much to ask, but internal consistency within this article would be desirable.
1593:
Ed, wasn't the new
Argentine government more socialist than the previous one? Jay, is that what you want us to include? - Dank (
479:
I'm always up for a hyphen discussion. Main point: maintain low expectations for standardization and sense-making. Last year's
1702:- this is unclear, why would destroyers have to be sent to escort them home? They were powerful dreadnoughts in their own right.
434:-class battleships" (note the hyphen) used? If this is correct, presumably the title of this article should also have a hyphen.
370:). Would that satisfy you? I agree that it is an awkward sentence construction, but I've never really thought about it before.
341:. We don't usually use "group" though, it wouldn't bother me to use wording that we use in our other "class" articles. - Dank (
743:
359:
86:
1033:
in line with what I was expecting. MOSNUM seems not to allow what you want, but I can add a note, see if that helps. - Dank (
1220:"This move shocked the European bidders, especially in Britain" ... European bidders were resident in Britain at the time?
605:
Good to see you back in the saddle, hope you're taking the reins! (No offense to Brian or anyone else of course.) - Dank (
537:
1348:
No, because I want to keep consistency through all the large numbers, ie including 10,000 and ones I wouldn't write out.
1015:
Understood; MOSNUM is ambiguous, and either requires this or prohibits it depending on how you read it :) I've asked at
1456:
There was something above about $ being the symbol for the Argentine peso, but we decided to take out the US$ anyway.
1700:
destroyers had to be sent from Argentina to escort them home, as the Second World War had broken out during their stay.
1331:"American government"; normally "US administration" (or president's name administration), isn't it? Or "Washington's".
1565:- "massive" is usually used for something physical, and appears colloquial here. Another word would likely be better.
1281:"Rivadavia was scrapped in Italy beginning in 1959"—so it took years? Can't you say, for example, in 1959 and 1960?
1112:
Same paragraph, is there a reason why the tons are written as 30,000 but the enlisted men as 1000 without the comma?
1693:
After Brazil sold Rio de Janeiro to the Ottoman Empire, Argentina began to actively seek a buyer for their two ships
78:
71:
1687:
prompt American diplomacy granting various assurances regarding recent events between the United States and Brazil
1006:
No, but each use should be US$ . Being an Argentine topic, I would expect the bare $ sign to refer to the Peso.
363:
1298:
There was a coffee boom in Brazil around that time, which allowed for the funding of the two dreadnoughts. It's
213:
s went to Argentina rather than an enemy... which conflicted with Argentina's sudden desire to sell both ships.
1718:
In general, have you considered using Knowledge's inflation function to provides values in today's dollars?
1453:
Why is "US$ " linked? And MOSNUM says $ alone, unless there's some doubt. Who'd have suspected NZ dollars?
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1317:
Any reason "Scientific American" should be mentioned inline, when there's a ref tag a few mm to the right?
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615:
Thanks, and same sentiments as Dank. Brian did extremely well, but it's certainly nice to see you again.
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351:
I'm not sure how to respond here. Using your suggestion would indicate to readers that they are reading
1284:
Ship breaking takes a long time even today, and the sources I've used don't say when it was completed.
1759:
As all prices are given in (then-current) $ US, wouldn't the inflation function work for all of them?
486:
1657:
NoctureNoir only put part of the paragraph in a footnote, I really think all of it should be there.
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499:
I have no strong preference for either solution, but I see no reason why this article should use "
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No, I meant which specific government/party was in power and in cabinet, and who was the leader?
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NOTE: consequent change of number from "group of battleships" to singular "class of battleship".
461:-class battleships" gets the hyphen, but no one ever told me why article titles don't use it.
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1540:
not help but wonder if tack was supposed to be track. Otherwise it all looks good. Well done!
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1725:'s talk page asking about the relative merit of the figures used, he's an economist. - Dank (
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as such, and I copied that over to this image (as it is from the same publication). Thanks,
205:
While the ships were being built, the First World War flared up in Europe. Suddenly everyone—
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262:
1620:- these quotations should probably be paraphrased, or cited if the sources are significant.
1590:- Which cabinet? The government at the time should be described here in a couple of words.
1442:
Both addressed, the second before I came back and saw your comment. ;-) Poor word choices.
1391:
Suddenly a sterling conversion ... why? "Italy's tender was just $ 48,600 (£10,000) more".
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1359:"Still" is a bit informal here: "Still, since Europe was the traditional arms supplier"
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540:) to comment, as she (if memory serves) was the one who explained all of that to me.
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1689:- the specifics of those "assurances" and "events" would be helpful in a footnote.
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Knowledge:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Rivadavia class battleship
315:"two-ship group" is undtidy and inadequate. "numbering two ships" is better.
1721:
SHIPS people generally don't, but I don't know why. I'll leave a note on
1237:
The battleships' fate was subjected to rumors... I've changed it to "of".
24:
Knowledge:Featured article candidates/Rivadavia class battleship/archive1
1100:
If you click on the links provided, you can raise that to 100%. - Dank (
457:
I've never understood that myself, actually. I was always told that "
46:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
592:- sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool.
306:
of battleship (Spanish: acorazados), numbering two ships, etc...."
687:
Striking support; just got Ed's email offering a co-nom. - Dank (
447:
and search for "class". None of our FAs hyphenate this. - Dank (
1394:
Whoops, I was putting all of them into notes, but I missed one.
1260:
Check that, the link was wrong (Wikt has page titles in upper-
126:
Featured article candidates/Rivadavia class battleship/archive1
1618:"the most up-to-date practice", "a general machinery overhaul"
748:
File:Minas Gerais class battleship diagrams Brasseys 1923.jpg
1345:
Can you write "million" to avoid 18 zeros in that sentence?
1582:
came as an abrupt shock to the Argentine and Chilean navies
917:
I meant "analytical" as "delved into the facts and avoided
709:
File:Rivadavia class battleship diagrams Brasseys 1923.jpg
152:
930:
I removed "analytical"; see how that works, YM. - Dank (
1363:
1248:
Is there a reason that "struck" has a Wiktionary link?
358:, which isn't right. I could use the word "series" (cf
112:
108:
104:
64:
1486:
Needs unfamiliar eyes to run through the whole thing.
1184:
Can't quite see the point of linking "seeking bids".
907:
Agreed, thanks for that (and the support). - Dank (
1302:, but that's the way we did it in a previous FAC (
1843:The above discussion is preserved as an archive.
209:Britain and Germany—wanted to make sure that the
1295:Why is Sao Paulo piped to "soaring demand"????
639:Support after a thorough A-class assessment at
50:. No further edits should be made to this page.
800:I've moved it to en.wiki under the same name.
1849:No further edits should be made to this page.
1569:NocturneNoir got this one. (Thanks!) - Dank (
996:, which recommends linking sparsely. - Dank (
36:The following is an archived discussion of a
8:
1439:"much cheaper than that of Britain's"—nope.
321:Include "The" or not, as deemed appropriate.
293:of battleships (Spanish: acorazados) etc..."
1052:Yay for style guides, but MOSNUM is like a
746:), as he was the one who originally tagged
1563:which paid for a massive 1904 $ 31,250,000
131:
48:Knowledge talk:Featured article candidates
1117:WP:MOSNUM#Delimiting (grouping of digits)
838:En.wiki-hosted image resolves the issue.
261:: no dab links, no dead external links.
1366:, but it may be more convoluted now...
1234:Do we subject a battleship to rumours?
921:". Is there any better way to word it?
783:please ping me when this is resolved.
366:), or I could omit it all together (cf
134:
122:
277:: The introductory sentence is clumsy.
18:Knowledge:Featured article candidates
7:
1060:, which is actually policy. - Dank (
177:) 07:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC), Dank (
1647:NocturneNoir got this one. - Dank (
1377:"quick American diplomacy"—prompt?
1178:Not quite happy yet with the prose
516:I'm happy either way, Ed. - Dank (
31:
1304:Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes
1435:"They also made note of"--: -->
1:
1837:20:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
1821:23:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
1801:22:24, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
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1550:22:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
1409:Reworded using that, thanks!
1264:lower-case, apparently). See
1029:Okay, just got an answer at
1530:15:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
1519:07:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
1500:06:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
1482:06:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
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901:04:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
874:03:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
854:12:55, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
826:19:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
805:17:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
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779:05:22, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
764:00:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
569:03:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
413:03:05, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
38:featured article nomination
1866:
728:18:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
693:21:18, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
683:16:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
673:16:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
653:13:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
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611:12:20, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
601:12:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
554:06:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
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512:14:08, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
495:14:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
475:03:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
453:11:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
445:WP:SHIPS#Featured articles
439:11:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
384:03:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
347:11:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
333:11:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
266:08:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
252:21:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
240:07:52, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
183:21:16, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
79:Rivadavia class battleship
72:Rivadavia class battleship
1505:in really wide windows).
1206:in the next sentence ...
1846:Please do not modify it.
1588:The cabinet was in favor
1334:Shortened to "American"
63:03:39, 4 September 2010
43:Please do not modify it.
1380:Good suggestion, added
677:Thanks, fixed. - Dank (
503:class battleship" but "
403:unavoidable, I think.--
1150:Agreed, done. - Dank (
1085:Agreed, done. - Dank (
1191:on the subject? :-)
1135:is highly ambiguous.
1031:WT:MOSNUM#Currencies
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1805:I don't mind using
1666:NN got it. - Dank (
1131:Ref 23; location?
976:Sounds good to me.
812:. Which references
1436:"They referred to"
659:Wrong link, Dank.
296:Suggested: "(The)
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643:, per usual
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505:Minas Geraes
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482:AP Stylebook
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148:Citation bot
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1362:Copyedited
526:I've asked
219:just passed
1189:an article
1169:Courcelles
1140:Courcelles
1119:. - Dank (
1019:. - Dank (
1008:Courcelles
994:WP:Linking
732:I'll ping
647:. - Dank (
645:disclaimer
430:: Why is "
207:especially
200:dark horse
1810:inflation
1739:Inflation
1542:TomStar81
1209:Reworded
843:Эlcobbola
816:artist.--
809:See also
771:Jappalang
734:Jappalang
717:Эlcobbola
501:Rivadavia
355:Rivadavia
299:Rivadavia
285:Rivadavia
211:Rivadavia
192:Rivadavia
1556:Comments
1223:Removed
956:Comments
744:contribs
594:Ealdgyth
590:Comments
538:contribs
487:WT:TITLE
325:Amandajm
143:Analysis
61:Karanacs
57:promoted
1793:Protonk
1747:Protonk
1537:Support
1165:Support
880:Support
862:Support
787:Georgia
705:Comment
664:OCTURNE
528:Maralia
428:Comment
275:Comment
259:Comment
224:Milhist
135:Toolbox
96:protect
91:history
1834:Jayjg
1781:Jayjg
1761:Jayjg
1659:Jayjg
1638:round.
1605:Jayjg
1515:(talk)
1496:(talk)
1478:(talk)
559:way.--
509:Ucucha
436:Ucucha
302:was a
263:Ucucha
100:delete
1468:etc.
1204:again
1058:WP:UE
785:Sandy
304:class
291:group
287:class
117:views
109:watch
105:links
16:<
1797:talk
1751:talk
1546:Talk
1509:Tony
1490:Tony
1472:Tony
1364:here
1300:eggy
1115:See
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443:See
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353:ARA
339:Iowa
329:talk
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171:talk
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87:talk
83:edit
1262:and
668:OIR
59:by
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