Knowledge (XXG)

:Featured article candidates/Triangulum/archive1 - Knowledge (XXG)

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1437:" (ie italicised) , at another point "...Beta, Gamma and Delta Trianguli were called "Teen Ta Tseang Keun"..." (ie. in quotation marks) but later "Johann Bayer called the constellation Triplicitas and Orbis terrarum tripertitus..." (not italicised). What is the criterion for determining the formal of proper names that are not in English? Partly I want consistency, but I also found the correct interpretation difficult at one point later on, where we have "...renaming the original Triangulum Majus." I wondered whether this meant he renamed Triangulum as Majus, or renamed Triangulum as Triangulum Majus (I assume it is the latter)? If the latter, then regardless of formatting you could solve the problem by writing "...renaming the original as Triangulum Majus." 1482:"bordered by Andromeda to the north and west, Pisces to the southwest, Aries to the south, and Perseus to the northeast." I am just wondering about consistency of treatment of the compass points. Because "southwest" and "northeast" are used (ie. you are being specific to the extent of eight directions of the compass) I did kind of feel that there was a big gap to the east and southeast, whereas all other directions are covered (the way you write about Andromeda covers northwest without a problem). Is there any reasonable solution to this, or does one just live with it? :-) 1849:: Nice article. The only problem that jumped out at me was this sentence: "It was also called Sicilia, because Ceres, patron goddess of Sicily, was claimed to have begged Jupiter that the island be placed in the heavens." Between the clauses and the subjunctive part, it gets convoluted. Maybe something more like this: "It was also called Sicilia, because the Romans believed Ceres, patron goddess of Sicily, begged Jupiter to place the island in the heavens." -- 2057:. My reading of the sitation is that the copyrightholder, who is the creator of this image, is Till Credner, as stated on the AllTheSky site. That same person has then uploaded the same image to WM Commons and released it under a CC licence. My understanding is that multiple copyrights in an image can exist and that by uploading it to WP under a CC, the copyright holder has validly placed their own image in the public domain. What am I missing? 1333:"it was presumed to be 32 in error by Baily and thus refers to 7.4 magnitude HD 10407". What?? What is 32? A star? A measurement? And when the article says "thus refers" in the present tense, does this mean this is currently considered correct? If so, how come the Flamsteed designation isn't used? Sorry, I was flummoxed by this. 1382:
to render it thus: "...Baily presumed that the coordinates were mistranscribed 32 in error by Flamsteed and in fact referred to 7.4 magnitude HD 10407." Can you check that this is still correct? However, I had a separate issue: I have no clue what 32 means: i still don't understand whether that is a
1352:
Flamsteed designated a star at a point where subsequent observations showed there was no star. Baily concluded he must have been looking at HD 10407 and mistranscribed its coordinates - so later when he looked at his records he wrote it up as in Triangulum. However, we don't know that for sure - all
1456:
Italics are used in their words-as-words and also as they are foreign terms - this has cropped up before in sections with many terms where we could feasibly pepper the whole section in italics (which might not look great style-wise...)! I guess as Triangulum (Latin) isn't, I'd then reserve it for
1457:
words in foreign scripts (in this case Greek, Arabic and Chinese) and have italicized the Chinese term. Regarding the Majus/Minus issue - none of the three stars excised were part of the pattern of the main triangle. Planted an "as" in there now.
1383:
measurement of something. I may be being boneheaded, but it just doens't look like anything I've seen... sorry if I'm being boneheaded. Oh wait, it means 32... what, arcseconds?! Maybe spell that out...
1199:
In ref 9, we're given: "pp. 301–02, 48": does this mean "pages 301, 302, and 348", or "pages 301, 302, and 348"? If the former, 348 needs to be written in full; if the latter, "48" needs to come before
315:
I'm not an astronomer, but I get the feeling "yellow-white" has some special meaning, rather than just a description of the colour. If that's the case, is there something that can be linked to?
119: 210:"Its name is Latin for triangle, derived from its three brightest stars, which form a long and narrow triangle.": as a translation, I think "triangle" should be in quotes here. 935:"Iota Trianguli is an "attractive double star with a noticeable color contrast" whose": quotes should be attributed; is there any reason this can't be paraphrased instead? 1133:"Because of its low surface brightness, low power is required.": the meaning of this is not clear to me. Does it mean a device with a power source is required to see it? 2074:, I'm inclined to agree with Hamilton's reading of it -- let me know if you still see an issue or believe one of our regular image reviewers should opine... Cheers, 1636:
The five were not in chronological order (bar the Gk/Latin bits). I guess they could have been used concurrently. I don't have enough information to comment on that.
181:
Yet another small constellation. as well as being pretty comprehensive I've had eyes look over it to make the prose more engaging. Let me know what to fix - Cheers,
2011:
Sorry, my bad - I meant not my own work but the own work of an uploader (rather than someone getting a third party's photos off flickr or elsewhere) - Till Credner
40: 381:"Δελτωτόν/Deltoton": is this an accepted formatting? It looks weird to me. I'd write it "Deltoton (Δελτωτόν)", the way you did with "MULAPIN (𒀯𒀳)" earlier 2125: 30: 17: 1433:
I like the section on history and mythology. I have a minor format question. Currently we have at one point "The Ancient Greeks called Triangulum
2136: 714:"Later, Bayer called the constellation": at this point, Bayer has yet to have been introduced to the reader, so this is pretty jarring 554:
See I'd stick quote marks around English meanings, and I've sometimes italicized words-as-words, but I wouldn't put quote marks here
2054: 2012: 760: 1575:— why is this an alternation? If you mean "Alternatively", I can't see why that is appropriate either. Also "linked" overworked 1573:
Eratosthenes linked it with the Nile Delta. Alternately, the Roman writer Hyginus linked it to the triangular island of Sicily
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I really can't get myself to agree here, but I can't find a style guideline to back me up, so I'll just have to let this go.
618: 566: 533: 500: 467: 434: 401: 368: 335: 302: 266: 230: 192: 169: 90: 85: 2196: 2155: 2100: 2083: 2066: 2045: 2031: 2005: 1984: 1943: 1919: 1897: 1883: 1858: 1831: 1809: 1787: 1768: 1732: 1688: 1652: 1620:, but the vagueness of the dating leads me to wonder whether the any of the five names were in concurrent use (especially 1599: 1566: 1542: 1521: 1491: 1473: 1446: 1420: 1392: 1373: 1342: 1319: 1293: 1259: 1241: 1224: 1190: 1157: 1124: 1091: 1058: 1025: 992: 959: 926: 893: 856: 819: 781: 738: 705: 636: 622: 596: 570: 537: 504: 471: 438: 405: 372: 339: 306: 270: 234: 196: 173: 94: 56: 243:"triangle, derived from its three brightest stars, which form a long and narrow triangle.": delink the second "triangle" 943:
On reading I removed it and let the observations speak for themselves, though added "contrasting" to the 2nd component.
606:"triangle" (signifier = word-as-word = italicized, signified = quoted) - trigonum is signifier and hence italicized...? 1141:
means that low magnification to maximise the light coming thru the lens - can't find anything to link it to though....
77: 2050:
Hi Graham, Cas. I'm sure I've been round this loop as a reviewer of a previous GAN or FAC for another constellation,
1034:"as massive as Jupiter that takes 472 days": I can't expalin why, but I feel like "adn" would be better than "than" 140: 135: 455:
I removed it as transliterate means the word has already been written, hence no need to write the same word again.
2187:. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. 1752:
low power means larger field of view and more light comes in telescope making it easier to see (as it is large)
689:
given we've got Romanized, Latinized and color, may as well be US English - can't see any other words in it....
2062: 1959: 1538: 1502: 1487: 1442: 1388: 1338: 1255: 1237: 632: 592: 790:"when the constellations were established in the 1920s": is there something that could be linked to here? 1990: 1953: 2096: 2041: 2001: 1289: 2180: 1994: 280: 2192: 1893: 1854: 1804: 1782: 1561: 902:"16 Trianguli was noted by Baily to be": I'd prefer no passive here: "Baily noted 16 Trianguli was" 2129: 2151: 2079: 2058: 2021: 1974: 1939: 1909: 1873: 1821: 1758: 1722: 1678: 1642: 1589: 1534: 1511: 1483: 1463: 1438: 1410: 1384: 1363: 1334: 1309: 1214: 1180: 1147: 1114: 1081: 1048: 1015: 982: 949: 916: 883: 846: 809: 771: 728: 695: 665: 612: 560: 527: 494: 461: 428: 395: 362: 329: 296: 260: 224: 186: 163: 1505:(bearing in mind east and west are reversed!) - changed it to clarify we're not missing anything 1353:
we can be certain is that at the location marked 1 Trianguli there is no star. Make sense...?
1067:
Move link for "light years" from "Deep-sky objects" section to first mention in "Stars" section
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No, it's just a colour, though discussing colours can be a vexed topic in star observation....
828:"are defined by a polygon": I'm not familiar with the jargon, but shouldn't this be "defined 2092: 2071: 2037: 1997: 1773:
Duh... you wouldn't think that I did two years of physics as part of my chemistry degree!
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has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see
2188: 1889: 1850: 1797: 1775: 1554: 480:"then later became the Latin Deltotum": maybe better worded as " "Deltotum" in Latin ". 2184: 2147: 2088: 2075: 2017: 1970: 1935: 1905: 1869: 1817: 1754: 1718: 1674: 1638: 1585: 1507: 1459: 1406: 1359: 1305: 1210: 1176: 1143: 1110: 1077: 1044: 1011: 978: 945: 912: 879: 842: 805: 799: 767: 724: 691: 661: 608: 556: 523: 490: 457: 424: 391: 358: 325: 292: 256: 220: 182: 159: 53: 111: 1042:
the 472 days refers to the companion - I think "which" works better there anyway
414:"to the earlier Greeks": what, Greeks earlier than the Ancient Greeks themselves? 2143: 218:
yeah, I'd normally do that too, except I paused with the "for" before it...done
1583:
agreed, sloppy word now removed and "while" used instead, one "linked" removed
73: 66: 348:"a member of our Local Group.": I'm pretty sure we're supposed to avoid "our" 681:"representing honor": is this in Commonwealth or Unitedstatesian English? 1744:—Is this right? I would have thought low brightness needed higher power. 389:
I've done that for seven years, but the other way makes sense...changed
447:"transliterated into Deltoton": as above, needs quotes around "Deltaon" 1993:
it says "© all photographs taken by Till Credner, AlltheSky.com" here
1398:
Yes, that looks better. Sorry, not arcseconds as such but seconds in
1272:
Some of the infobox details don't appear to be sourced in the article
356:
not fussed either way but ok, I can see the case for this...changed
39:
Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in
1965: 2183:
nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants:
1166:
Overlinking: in "Stars", "Beta Trianguli" and "Alpha Trianguli"
1100:"and at magnitude 5.8, it is bright": the comman is unnecessary 747:"The smaller constellation was not recognised by the IAU": the 513:"Ptolemy called it as Τρίγωνον": no transliteration this time? 1952:
One hasn't been done, but there are only two - one own work (
1742:
Because of its low surface brightness, low power is required.
1284:
FNs 20, 21 and similar should use endashes in their titles.
422:
removed - not sure how that ended up there. redundant anyway
651:"(天大将军, heaven's great general)": quotes around translation 1250:. Cas Liber's dealt appropriately with all my concerns. 145: 1618:
Deltoton... Deltotum... Sicilia... Trigonon... Trigonum.
575:
I have to disagree here—it's the difference between the
546:"it was Romanized as Trigonum": quotes around "Trigonum" 1379: 279:"with six gaining Bayer designations.": take a look at 107: 103: 99: 59: 1616:
suggests that there was a chronological name sequence
1968:. (Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported license) 587:"Trigonum", not as the thing signified by that word. 1278:
Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated
1001:"2-7 times as massive as the sun": needs an endash 2163:The above discussion is preserved as an archive. 206:Feel free to disagree with any of the following: 41:Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates 2091:, I'm satisfied with this explanation. Thanks. 1275:Be consistent in whether states are abbreviated 968:"doppler imaging": isn't "Doppler" capitalized? 120:Featured article candidates/Triangulum/archive1 43:. No further edits should be made to this page. 2169:No further edits should be made to this page. 2142:template in place on the talk page until the 2036:I can't see how this resolves the © problem. 29:The following is an archived discussion of a 8: 18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates 1552:Just a few queries, otherwise looks sound 865:"in error by Baily and thus refer": "refer 290:I do this construction alot - changed now 124: 1888:Looks good to me. Changed to support. -- 1964:), which copyright information is given 765:- spelt out and linked at first instance 1934:-- did I miss an image review? Cheers, 127: 117: 1357:Tried a rephrase - hope that helps.... 7: 1702:112 light-years from Earth. It is 24: 801:Constellation#IAU_constellations 762:International Astronomical Union 1529:That's what I thought. Thanks. 1501:Just describing what is on the 840:Yeah, I think 'as' works better 1: 2156:14:18, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 2101:14:06, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 2084:09:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 1567:15:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC) 1543:08:41, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 1522:04:09, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 1492:00:12, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 1474:03:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 1447:00:09, 13 December 2013 (UTC) 1421:04:01, 18 November 2013 (UTC) 1393:03:37, 18 November 2013 (UTC) 1374:02:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC) 1355:Will think of how to rephrase 1343:01:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC) 1320:13:05, 13 November 2013 (UTC) 1294:18:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC) 1260:23:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC) 1242:02:17, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1225:06:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1191:06:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1158:12:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1125:12:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1092:06:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1059:12:21, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 1026:06:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 993:12:30, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 960:12:35, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 927:11:02, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 894:11:26, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 857:11:25, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 820:11:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 782:06:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 739:11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 706:12:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 637:23:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC) 623:12:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC) 597:00:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC) 571:12:14, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 538:11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 505:11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 472:11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 439:11:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 406:06:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 373:06:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 340:12:21, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 307:12:35, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 271:06:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 235:06:41, 10 November 2013 (UTC) 57:10:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC) 2067:01:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC) 2052:but i can't find it just now 2046:20:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC) 2032:19:12, 8 December 2013 (UTC) 2006:17:38, 8 December 2013 (UTC) 1985:19:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC) 1944:15:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC) 1920:09:53, 4 December 2013 (UTC) 1898:23:12, 3 December 2013 (UTC) 1884:19:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC) 1859:15:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC) 1832:13:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1810:13:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1788:13:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1769:11:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1733:11:54, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1689:11:56, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1662:Latinized, honor, catalogued 1653:11:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 1610:The Ancient Greeks called... 1600:11:51, 2 December 2013 (UTC) 602:But that's what I do - e.g. 197:04:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC) 174:04:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC) 2197:00:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC) 2137:featured article candidates 1328:Comments from Hamiltonstone 659:I would here though - added 253:(dang, how'd I miss that??) 31:featured article nomination 2213: 202:Feedback from Curly Turkey 2015:his photos to wikipedia. 1958:) and one IAU starchart ( 1903:thx - much appreciated :) 2166:Please do not modify it. 1614:...Romanized as Trigonum 36:Please do not modify it. 1961:File:Triangulum IAU.svg 488:Even better - Latinized 1378:Well, sort of. 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578: 574: 573: 572: 568: 565: 562: 558: 552: 551: 550: 549: 545: 544: 539: 535: 532: 529: 525: 519: 518: 517: 516: 512: 511: 506: 502: 499: 496: 492: 486: 485: 484: 483: 479: 478: 473: 469: 466: 463: 459: 453: 452: 451: 450: 446: 445: 440: 436: 433: 430: 426: 420: 419: 418: 417: 413: 412: 407: 403: 400: 397: 393: 387: 386: 385: 384: 380: 379: 374: 370: 367: 364: 360: 354: 353: 352: 351: 347: 346: 341: 337: 334: 331: 327: 321: 320: 319: 318: 314: 313: 308: 304: 301: 298: 294: 288: 287: 286: 285: 282: 278: 277: 272: 268: 265: 262: 258: 254: 249: 248: 247: 246: 242: 241: 236: 232: 229: 226: 222: 216: 215: 214: 213: 209: 208: 207: 201: 199: 198: 194: 191: 188: 184: 176: 175: 171: 168: 165: 161: 155: 154: 147: 144: 142: 139: 137: 134: 133: 132: 131: 126: 121: 118: 116: 113: 109: 105: 101: 96: 92: 87: 83: 79: 75: 68: 65: 62: 60: 58: 55: 51: 44: 42: 37: 32: 27: 26: 19: 2179:: This is a 2176: 2165: 2162: 2122:Closing note 2121: 2051: 2024: 1977: 1931: 1930: 1912: 1876: 1845: 1843: 1842: 1824: 1796: 1792: 1774: 1761: 1741: 1725: 1703: 1699: 1697: 1681: 1661: 1645: 1625: 1621: 1617: 1613: 1609: 1592: 1572: 1553: 1551: 1530: 1528: 1514: 1466: 1434: 1413: 1366: 1354: 1312: 1265: 1264: 1252:Curly Turkey 1247: 1234:Curly Turkey 1231: 1217: 1183: 1150: 1117: 1084: 1051: 1018: 985: 952: 919: 886: 866: 849: 829: 812: 774: 748: 731: 698: 668: 629:Curly Turkey 615: 603: 589:Curly Turkey 584: 580: 576: 563: 530: 497: 464: 431: 398: 365: 332: 299: 263: 252: 227: 205: 189: 180: 166: 157: 141:Citation bot 71: 49: 47: 35: 28: 2093:Graham Colm 2038:Graham Colm 1998:Graham Colm 1806:talk to me? 1784:talk to me? 1563:talk to me? 877:yup - fixed 1664:—AE or BE? 1286:Nikkimaria 759:Aaah, the 604:Triangulum 281:WP:PLUSING 74:Triangulum 67:Triangulum 2189:UcuchaBot 2130:WP:FAC/ar 2126:candidate 2018:Cas Liber 1971:Cas Liber 1906:Cas Liber 1890:Coemgenus 1870:Cas Liber 1851:Coemgenus 1818:Cas Liber 1799:Jimfbleak 1777:Jimfbleak 1755:Cas Liber 1719:Cas Liber 1675:Cas Liber 1639:Cas Liber 1586:Cas Liber 1556:Jimfbleak 1508:Cas Liber 1460:Cas Liber 1407:Cas Liber 1360:Cas Liber 1306:Cas Liber 1211:Cas Liber 1177:Cas Liber 1144:Cas Liber 1111:Cas Liber 1078:Cas Liber 1045:Cas Liber 1012:Cas Liber 979:Cas Liber 946:Cas Liber 913:Cas Liber 910:activated 880:Cas Liber 843:Cas Liber 806:Cas Liber 768:Cas Liber 725:Cas Liber 692:Cas Liber 662:Cas Liber 609:Cas Liber 581:signified 577:signifier 557:Cas Liber 524:Cas Liber 491:Cas Liber 458:Cas Liber 425:Cas Liber 392:Cas Liber 359:Cas Liber 326:Cas Liber 293:Cas Liber 257:Cas Liber 221:Cas Liber 183:Cas Liber 160:Cas Liber 2185:Casliber 2148:Ian Rose 2124:: This 2076:Ian Rose 2055:found it 2028:contribs 1981:contribs 1936:Ian Rose 1916:contribs 1880:contribs 1867:ok, done 1844:Support 1828:contribs 1765:contribs 1729:contribs 1685:contribs 1649:contribs 1596:contribs 1518:contribs 1470:contribs 1435:Deltoton 1417:contribs 1370:contribs 1316:contribs 1221:contribs 1187:contribs 1174:delinked 1154:contribs 1121:contribs 1088:contribs 1055:contribs 1022:contribs 989:contribs 956:contribs 923:contribs 890:contribs 853:contribs 816:contribs 778:contribs 735:contribs 702:contribs 672:contribs 619:contribs 585:the word 579:and the 567:contribs 534:contribs 501:contribs 468:contribs 435:contribs 402:contribs 369:contribs 336:contribs 303:contribs 267:contribs 231:contribs 193:contribs 170:contribs 136:Analysis 54:Ian Rose 50:promoted 2181:WikiCup 1846:Comment 1793:Support 1716:abouted 1531:Support 1248:Support 1200:301–02. 722:tweaked 128:Toolbox 91:protect 86:history 2072:Graham 1706:double 1704:around 1700:around 1256:gobble 1238:gobble 798:yup - 633:gobble 593:gobble 95:delete 1698:4.00 1075:fixed 1009:fixed 521:added 251:done 112:views 104:watch 100:links 16:< 2193:talk 2177:Note 2152:talk 2097:talk 2080:talk 2063:talk 2042:talk 2022:talk 2002:talk 1975:talk 1966:here 1940:talk 1932:Note 1910:talk 1894:talk 1874:talk 1855:talk 1822:talk 1759:talk 1723:talk 1679:talk 1643:talk 1624:or 1590:talk 1539:talk 1512:talk 1488:talk 1464:talk 1443:talk 1411:talk 1389:talk 1364:talk 1339:talk 1310:talk 1290:talk 1215:talk 1181:talk 1148:talk 1115:talk 1108:done 1082:talk 1049:talk 1016:talk 983:talk 976:done 950:talk 917:talk 884:talk 847:talk 810:talk 772:talk 729:talk 696:talk 666:talk 613:talk 561:talk 528:talk 495:talk 462:talk 429:talk 396:talk 363:talk 330:talk 297:talk 261:talk 225:talk 187:talk 164:talk 108:logs 82:talk 78:edit 2144:bot 2089:Ian 1815:thx 1612:to 1503:map 1232:——— 749:who 52:by 2195:) 2154:) 2140:}} 2134:{{ 2099:) 2082:) 2065:) 2044:) 2030:) 2004:) 1996:. 1983:) 1942:) 1918:) 1896:) 1882:) 1857:) 1830:) 1802:- 1780:- 1767:) 1731:) 1687:) 1672:BE 1651:) 1598:) 1559:- 1541:) 1533:. 1520:) 1490:) 1472:) 1445:) 1419:) 1391:) 1372:) 1341:) 1318:) 1292:) 1258:) 1240:) 1223:) 1189:) 1156:) 1123:) 1090:) 1057:) 1024:) 991:) 958:) 925:) 892:) 869:"? 855:) 832:"? 830:as 818:) 780:) 737:) 704:) 635:) 621:) 595:) 569:) 536:) 503:) 470:) 437:) 404:) 371:) 338:) 305:) 269:) 233:) 195:) 172:) 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Index

Knowledge (XXG):Featured article candidates
featured article nomination
Knowledge (XXG) talk:Featured article candidates
Ian Rose
10:01, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Triangulum
Triangulum
edit
talk
history
protect
delete
links
watch
logs
views
Featured article candidates/Triangulum/archive1
Analysis
Citation bot
External links
Cas Liber
talk
contribs
04:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Cas Liber
talk
contribs
04:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Cas Liber

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