821:(such as the Vatican flag and John Paul II's personal arms) using a red cord version. Despite this differentiation, right above the blazon it displays a red cord red shield version. What is up with that??? Later on the same page says the cord can be red or blue. Both of these contradict the explicit text of the blazon provided on the page. So, either both the provided blazon and Archbishop Heim are wrong or the website is wrong. This is why simply using secondary sources in this case is unacceptable. There's too many ambiguities, and going to the
879:
839:
possible proper representation of the papacy--the first time this version has ever been used is on
Knowledge (XXG) which makes me uncomfortable with its usage. I am not disputing anything of what you have said about it being proper heraldry, I am just worried that without this version having been used before it (while accurate) is still creating new work. That being said, if I am the only one still very wary about this do not let me keep this nomination held up.
34:
243:
809:. So at least one heraldry scholar of repute denounces a red shield-red cord or a no shield-red cord version of the Holy See's coat of arms and supports the idea of a red-cord Papal emblem, and thus supports the proposition that this picture is an accurate depiction of the Papal tiara/crossed keys emblem.
781:. It would simply be going to the primary source (legislation) and checking as to how far it specifies the design, whether by color picture, blazon, or whatever. If you object to going to primary sources and are insisting on reliance on secondary sources, then there is at least one herald, the late
643:
Besides, this is a fine rendition of the papal insignia as it appears on the
Vatican flag, and I don't think it should be defeated merely because it is not a proper rendition of the Holy See's coat of arms, which is not on the Vatican flag. I think a solution for the time being might be to place the
639:
Trialsanderrors, your solution (creating a version on a red shield) would work; however, the cord would need to be changed from red to gold. Otherwise, you'd not only have a coat of arms violating a fundamental heraldry rule (no color on color) but also not conforming to the blazon prescribed by law
828:
Let's not forget though, as
Gimmetrow has accurately pointed out, that this page's debate should not be about whether this picture is an accurate depiction of the coat of arms of the holy see. It should instead be whether this depiction of the tiara and keys, a traditional emblem of the Papacy used
750:
Well, the onus is on us not to commit original research. My opinion in brief: I feel very wary about creating any emblem/logo that we don't have an example to copy from because, it may be in the guidelines, it may not be. Maybe someone should e-mail the
Vatican PR and say "is this a proper version
627:
Although the
Vatican site shows both the emblem and the coat together, this isn't necessarily something to follow. The Vatican site does not distinguish the Vatican arms from the arms of the Holy See, although other authors do. Also the Vatican site shows the "coat of arms" with a red cord on a red
317:
until I can figure out what exactly this is representing. It's brilliantly done... but all of the source images are for different emblems. Nothing tells me that this SVG represents an emblem officially used by the
Vatican. If it is it will have a strong strong support. I should note that I don't
457:
In heraldry a large amount of flexibility is allowed for the artist's imagination - it's accurate if it corresponds to the blazon, which is "two keys in saltire or and argent, interlaced in the rings or, beneath a tiara argent, crowned or." How the lappets are curled, or whether the ropes pass in
838:
F l a n k e r, I'm not saying that there is a proper way and I (have come to) realize that there are many ways to represent the old, non-standardized emblems. I believe we could use any version that has previously been used in history and it would be fine. My worry is that--even if it may be a
615:
both on golden shield and neutral background). I don't have access to the actual codex (which I just added as reference), so I don't know how reliable the
Vatican website is in that regard. I'd say the best solution would be to also create a version on red shield, but sadly the creator hasn't
343:
I don't think there is license in this regard... this is not just differences in proportions.... this is differences in colors, etc. and they really need to be explained. It looks nice and they did a great job on it but it needs to represent something in reality to be used in an encyclopedic
37:
The crossed keys symbolize the keys of Simon Peter. The keys are gold and silver to represent the power of binding and loosing given to the Church. The triple crown (the tiara) represents the pope's three functions as "supreme pastor", "supreme teacher" and "supreme priest". The gold cross
597:
since the blazon in the fundamental law requires a red field and a gold cord, and this image omits both. It could be used somewhere else, though, as it's a fine rendition of the papal insignia despite it failing as the coat of arms of the Holy See and
Vatican City.
763:
There is not "a proper way" because is a very old emblem-coat of arms, so it is been represented on portals, documents, monuments, flags, and many more things, in many different shapings (like many others coats in Italy...). That's all. And it is not a big deal.
720:(De-indent) If the Vatican was concerned about little things like this, they'd publish an official version (probably raster) that we could faithfully vectorize. If they don't publish an official copy of the emblem, who's to say this isn't accurate?--
334:, scroll down to "Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of Vatican City". There are some differences, but I can't tell if they're relevant in Heraldry. Artists have a certain amount of license when creating their versions of coats of arms. ~
592:
in blazon) in order to comply with heraldry rules. If you note, the papal emblem (not the coat) is displayed on the
Vatican flag with the red cord, so I really have no problem with the image as displayed here. I just don't think it goes on
945:
The gold key must points to the right in the Coat of Arms of the Holy See and of the State of
Vatican City, the same for the flag. In the Coat of Arms of the popes I've noticed the different disposition but I can't explain why
947:
670:
402:
since it is not the coat (missing important elements required by heraldry conventions & Vatican law; see my note below). Maybe use it on the Pope page? Perhaps also use it to explain the differences between the two?
587:
The papal emblem is indeed used on the Holy See's coat of arms, but with two important differences. (1) It is displayed on a red shield, as gimmetrow properly acknowledged. (2) It's interlaced cord is changed to gold
172:
184:
Suspending my support for the moment, there are a number of differences between the one on the Vatican website and this one, and I'd like to see non-Wiki sourcing that establishes the accuracy of this version. ~
812:
Other secondary sources are extraordinarily ambiguous. The text of the blazon from the Holy See's own website supports a differentiation, since for the coat of arms it uses a blazon which specifically says
959:
To answer my own question: "The coat of arms of the Holy See. That of the State of Vatican City is the same except that the positions of the gold and silver keys are interchanged."
363:, if only to piss off people who hate SVG logos. One question, should the hanging tassel in the center be in front of the one going side to side? It is in the vatican's version.
640:(interlaced in the rings or). While heraldry gives artists considerable license in rendering the arms, it does not give them licence to ignore prescribed charges or tinctures.
628:
shield, and the ropes untied. The coat of arms is sufficiently confusing that the emblem just adds to the confusion, unless it were contrasted and explained very well.
1082:
673:
site says in text that the rope can be red. Also the personal coats of arms of popes usually have the rope untied, so this may be significant on the corporate arms.
607:
Sounds more like the article should be expanded or merged than that the nomination withdrawn, especially since the website uses them in conjunction (similarly, the
318:
think it's supposed to represent any of its three sources or the image trialanderror linked to... but, is this a specific pope's emblem? We just need more info.
502:
show a wide variation. If you find the image artistically deficient, that's fine, but this image seems within the range of artistic license allowed in heraldry.
1072:
931:. Looking at the official coat of arms, is the SVG not incorrect because the gold key points right instead of left, and vice versa for the silver key?
661:
I agree, I don't see a problem with this as the emblem. (Was it taken from a svg version of the flag to begin with?) Determining the accuracy of both
17:
829:
in many contexts other than the principal charge on a corporate coat of arms (flags, behind Papal personal arms, etc), is proper. I think it is.
515:
That's pretty much the answer I expected. I know there is limited freedom in rendering heraldic symbols, I just wasn't sure how much. Thanks! ~
851:
I can see the problem, but I can't see the solution. If someone can find a good image (good for all of you), I can try to make a new emblem. --
486:
It's still recognizable as a "tiara argent, crowned or." If it's the jewels, they can be found on the personal arms of quite a few popes, and
1077:
701:
I think we figured it out, but if you're able to create an svg of the coat of arms that would be much appreciated. Thanks for stopping by. ~
261:
258:
1053:
Several issues and no consensus. Please feel free to nominate this image again in future after considering the feedback. --—
1057:
1043:
1022:
1003:
985:
971:
954:
940:
923:
891:
873:
855:
846:
833:
768:
758:
745:
732:
705:
696:
679:
656:
634:
620:
602:
580:
571:
560:
551:
519:
508:
481:
464:
452:
443:
420:
407:
385:
376:
351:
338:
325:
309:
297:
265:
235:
210:
201:
189:
179:
140:
128:
116:
104:
92:
887:
Mhm, this image is already present in Commons, so I don't need to make another. You can use it instead of the one mine. --
649:
594:
529:
399:
878:
331:
825:, the primary source on what is the coat of arms and what is the emblem, would be useful to resolve the discrepancy.
652:, and start working on an svg version of properly rendered arms. This would also allow the nomination to continue.
448:
I would love to support, but I think it's not accurate and it can be done a bit better (maybe a matter of taste). --
645:
62:
546:
438:
175:. Now the caption only needs wikilinks and we're done. (PS Any chance we get a version on the red shield too?) ~
1037:
689:
499:
288:
487:
608:
1030:
The accuracy issue is what is preventing this nomination from passing. IS there a solid conclusions yet?!?
685:
666:
495:
901:. I've always liked seals and coats of arms. This is crisp and clean and I love that you did it in SVG. --
662:
491:
255:
921:
741:
I don't think the good people at the Vatican are quite as web-savvy as the average Wikipedian though. ~
283:
231:
684:
Hi, I'm the author of the image (Trialsanderrors call me in my Italian thalk page). I've done it from
1001:
843:
778:
755:
742:
724:
702:
617:
577:
557:
516:
382:
348:
335:
322:
225:
207:
186:
176:
1032:
967:
936:
674:
629:
566:
532:
with the following edit summary: "the emblem was not a coat of arms and was incorrectly blazoned" (
503:
459:
372:
368:
278:
951:
888:
852:
782:
765:
693:
70:
797:
cord, not on a shield but could be on a lot of stuff like the flag of the Vatican City) and the
250:
42:
692:. If you need some corrections, please ask me and I manage to satisfy your requests. Cheers,
902:
870:
198:
89:
78:
1054:
994:
982:
840:
786:
752:
729:
721:
398:. The papal emblem looks fine and is well done. However, it does not belong on the page
345:
319:
125:
33:
1017:
963:
932:
364:
306:
1066:
542:
470:
434:
101:
273:-- Amazing. Just so much detail. This is what I call proper use of vector graphics.
830:
653:
599:
474:
417:
404:
242:
164:
157:
150:
458:
front or behind, doesn't matter. How specifically is this considered inaccurate?
576:
OK, I reinstated it then, since the press office website shows both versions. ~
565:
The "coat of arms" displays the symbol on a red shield ("gules" in the blazon).
137:
113:
381:
The one without the red shield has one, the one on the red shield has two. ~
478:
449:
477:. And I think the ropes can be done better. Otherwise a very good image. --
56:
It has a good caption, it's pleasing to the eye, and it's of high quality.
537:
429:
981:
the line thicknesses seem to vary, which looks a little off to me. —
428:
So, is this accurate? Moving to "suspended nominations" section. --
38:
surmounting the triple crowns symbolizes the crucifixion of Jesus.
48:(Not nominated) For comparison: The coat of arms of the Holy See.
807:
Heraldry in the Catholic Church: Its Origins, Customs, and Laws
344:
article.... we can't just go around changing heraldry emblems.
739:
Acta Apostolicae Sedis, Supplement, 01.02.2001, Attachment B.
1018:
877:
817:(put a gold cord between the rings) and has examples that
206:
I requested expert input from the Heraldry WikiProject. ~
1012:
533:
1013:
960:
197:
I see what you mean this one might not be accurate.
1011:per nom. Very easy to see and not complicated. --
469:The crown looks way different. It's like putting
41:
993:This one's still here? What are we waiting for?
8:
616:respondend to a request to comment here. ~
249:- great example of the proper use of SVG. —
18:Knowledge (XXG):Featured picture candidates
151:
528:This image was removed from the article
32:
1083:Featured picture nominations/March 2007
158:
556:I asked the editor to comment here. ~
165:
737:There is of course an official text:
7:
905:
819:are not the Holy See's coat of arms
1073:Ended featured picture nominations
801:(red shield, tiara, crossed keys,
24:
789:), who distinguishes between the
171:Looks better than the one on the
416:as it is now. Very well done.
241:
59:Articles this image appears in
1:
1033:
914:
906:
1078:Featured picture nominations
1038:
913:
799:Coat of Arms of the Holy See
650:Coat of arms of the Holy See
595:Coat of arms of the Holy See
530:Coat of arms of the Holy See
400:Coat of arms of the Holy See
1058:05:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
1099:
1044:00:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
986:09:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
955:17:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
941:09:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
924:06:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
892:17:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
874:01:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
856:15:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
847:03:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
834:17:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
815:interlaced in the rings or
769:12:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
759:09:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
646:Papal regalia and insignia
590:interlaced in the rings or
453:20:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
444:14:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
386:08:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
377:05:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
352:12:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
339:20:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
326:18:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
310:02:25, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
298:01:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
266:18:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
236:15:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
211:03:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
202:00:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
190:22:34, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
180:03:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
141:23:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
129:13:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
117:06:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
105:04:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
93:04:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
63:Papal regalia and insignia
1023:23:27, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
1004:16:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
746:19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
733:18:17, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
706:19:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
697:09:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
680:02:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
669:is a separate issue. The
657:01:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
648:, remove the emblem from
635:23:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
621:23:39, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
603:21:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
581:16:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
572:12:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
561:20:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
552:11:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
520:05:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
509:23:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
500:Image:John paul 2 coa.svg
482:21:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
465:15:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
421:03:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
408:21:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
785:(the personal herald of
488:Image:John_XXIII_coa.png
972:16:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
773:Checking into what the
609:Coat of arms of Germany
124:I like the shadowing.
883:
793:(tiara, crossed keys,
667:Image:Holysee-arms.png
496:Image:JohnPaulICOA.jpg
136:, great use of SVG. --
49:
39:
881:
805:cord). See his book
663:Image:Coa Vatican.svg
492:Image:Paul VI coa.png
47:
44:File:Holysee-arms.png
36:
882:Do you like this one
28:Emblem of the Papacy
884:
777:says would not be
751:of your emblem" --
50:
40:
970:
939:
869:Do one like this.
779:original research
550:
442:
1090:
1042:
1040:
1035:
1020:
1015:
966:
935:
918:
917:
916:
910:
909:
908:
540:
432:
296:
295:
292:
286:
281:
277:
245:
234:
169:
167:
162:
160:
155:
153:
45:
1098:
1097:
1093:
1092:
1091:
1089:
1088:
1087:
1063:
1062:
1031:
912:
904:
787:Pope John XXIII
783:Archbishop Heim
743:trialsanderrors
703:trialsanderrors
618:trialsanderrors
578:trialsanderrors
558:trialsanderrors
517:trialsanderrors
394:Partial support
383:trialsanderrors
336:trialsanderrors
293:
290:
284:
279:
275:
274:
230:
226:trialsanderrors
208:trialsanderrors
187:trialsanderrors
177:trialsanderrors
173:Vatican webpage
163:
156:
149:
43:
31:
22:
21:
20:
12:
11:
5:
1096:
1094:
1086:
1085:
1080:
1075:
1065:
1064:
1061:
1060:
1051:Not promoted
1047:
1046:
1025:
1006:
988:
976:
975:
974:
948:www.vatican.va
943:
926:
895:
894:
867:
866:
865:
864:
863:
862:
861:
860:
859:
858:
836:
826:
810:
748:
718:
717:
716:
715:
714:
713:
712:
711:
710:
709:
708:
641:
637:
625:
624:
623:
585:
584:
583:
526:
525:
524:
523:
522:
513:
512:
511:
446:
425:
424:
423:
411:
390:
389:
388:
358:
357:
356:
355:
354:
312:
300:
268:
239:
219:
218:
217:
216:
215:
214:
213:
143:
131:
119:
107:
95:
82:
81:
76:
73:
68:
65:
60:
57:
54:
30:
25:
23:
15:
14:
13:
10:
9:
6:
4:
3:
2:
1095:
1084:
1081:
1079:
1076:
1074:
1071:
1070:
1068:
1059:
1056:
1052:
1049:
1048:
1045:
1041:
1036:
1029:
1026:
1024:
1021:
1016:
1010:
1007:
1005:
1002:
1000:
998:
992:
989:
987:
984:
980:
977:
973:
969:
965:
961:
958:
957:
956:
953:
952:F l a n k e r
949:
944:
942:
938:
934:
930:
927:
925:
922:
920:
919:
900:
897:
896:
893:
890:
889:F l a n k e r
886:
885:
880:
876:
875:
872:
857:
854:
853:F l a n k e r
850:
849:
848:
845:
842:
837:
835:
832:
827:
824:
820:
816:
811:
808:
804:
800:
796:
792:
788:
784:
780:
776:
772:
771:
770:
767:
766:F l a n k e r
762:
761:
760:
757:
754:
749:
747:
744:
740:
736:
735:
734:
731:
728:
727:
723:
719:
707:
704:
700:
699:
698:
695:
694:F l a n k e r
691:
687:
683:
682:
681:
678:
677:
672:
668:
664:
660:
659:
658:
655:
651:
647:
642:
638:
636:
633:
632:
626:
622:
619:
614:
610:
606:
605:
604:
601:
596:
591:
586:
582:
579:
575:
574:
573:
570:
569:
564:
563:
562:
559:
555:
554:
553:
548:
544:
539:
535:
531:
527:
521:
518:
514:
510:
507:
506:
501:
497:
493:
489:
485:
484:
483:
480:
476:
472:
471:Pahlavi Crown
468:
467:
466:
463:
462:
456:
455:
454:
451:
447:
445:
440:
436:
431:
427:
426:
422:
419:
415:
412:
410:
409:
406:
401:
396:
395:
391:
387:
384:
380:
379:
378:
374:
370:
366:
362:
359:
353:
350:
347:
342:
341:
340:
337:
333:
329:
328:
327:
324:
321:
316:
315:Strong oppose
313:
311:
308:
304:
301:
299:
289:
287:
282:
272:
269:
267:
264:
263:
260:
257:
252:
248:
244:
240:
238:
237:
233:
232:WiiWillieWiki
227:
223:
220:
212:
209:
205:
204:
203:
200:
196:
193:
192:
191:
188:
183:
182:
181:
178:
174:
170:
168:
161:
154:
147:
144:
142:
139:
135:
132:
130:
127:
123:
120:
118:
115:
111:
108:
106:
103:
99:
96:
94:
91:
87:
84:
83:
80:
77:
74:
72:
71:F l a n k e r
69:
66:
64:
61:
58:
55:
52:
51:
46:
35:
29:
26:
19:
1050:
1027:
1008:
996:
990:
978:
928:
903:
898:
868:
822:
818:
814:
806:
802:
798:
794:
791:Papal emblem
790:
774:
738:
725:
675:
630:
612:
589:
567:
504:
475:Elizabeth II
460:
413:
397:
393:
392:
360:
314:
302:
270:
254:
251:Vanderdecken
246:
229:
224:Per nom and
221:
194:
148:
145:
133:
121:
109:
97:
85:
27:
871:Bewareofdog
644:picture on
613:Bundesadler
473:on head of
199:Bewareofdog
90:Bewareofdog
79:Bewareofdog
1067:Categories
686:this image
611:shows the
305:Per above
126:ShadowHalo
964:Pstuart84
933:Pstuart84
676:Gimmetrow
631:Gimmetrow
568:Gimmetrow
505:Gimmetrow
461:Gimmetrow
365:Night Gyr
307:Bernalj90
112:per nom.
100:per nom.
75:Nominator
1019:irohisat
929:Question
690:this one
547:contribs
439:contribs
332:this one
102:Debivort
1034:Jumping
1028:Comment
1009:Support
991:Comment
899:Support
831:Pmadrid
671:Vatican
654:Pmadrid
600:Pmadrid
418:Pmadrid
414:Support
405:Pmadrid
361:Support
303:Support
271:Support
247:Support
222:Support
195:Comment
146:Support
134:Support
122:Support
110:Support
98:support
86:Support
67:Creator
1039:cheese
979:Oppose
907:Valley
280:Eugene
138:Golbez
53:Reason
1055:Pengo
999:inger
983:Pengo
950:). --
730:oHelp
536:). --
330:It's
114:Basar
16:<
995:vlad
968:Talk
937:Talk
915:city
841:gren
823:Acta
803:gold
775:Acta
753:gren
722:Here
688:and
665:and
543:talk
534:diff
498:and
479:Arad
450:Arad
435:talk
369:talk
346:gren
320:gren
844:グレン
795:red
756:グレン
538:KFP
430:KFP
349:グレン
323:グレン
159:T10
1069::
962:-
764:--
545:|
494:,
490:,
437:|
375:)
373:Oy
294:~~
291:☺
285:2x
276:~~
253:∴
166:A8
152:E8
88:—
1014:H
997:§
946:(
911:2
726:T
588:(
549:)
541:(
441:)
433:(
371:/
367:(
262:φ
259:ξ
256:∫
228:'
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License. Additional terms may apply.
