203:. The portal guidelines were an effort to codify common sense about portals, and we should still use common sense. It is still a matter of common sense that portals should be about broad subject areas that will attract large numbers of viewers and will attract portal maintainers. This imposes at least a three-part test for portals to satisfy common sense: (1) a broad subject area, demonstrated
982:
broad enough is demonstrated by the lack of pageviews and maintenance. Content forks are worthless, since they go out of date, preserve potentially inferior versions of article content, add pointlessly to the maintenance burden, and are vandalism magnets; therefore they should not be saved. I support
1150:
per above and for being a harmful content fork. I'm particularly troubled by the section "Administrative divisions of
Islamabad", which does not seem to be present in the parent article or any related articles. It's not a list of links so it serves no navigational purpose. It should be moved to main
827:
Like categories, portals are utility pages, whose worth consists solely in whether they add value for readers, over and above what is available in the head article and related pages. In the last 6 months, over 900 MFD discussions have deleted portals which don't add value for readers. I am sad to
1032:
The failure of this portal is wholly unsurprising. It has a population of only about one million, and in the last six months nearly every portals on a city of that size or smaller has been deleted, because they have failed to attract enough readers and editors to make a viable portal. Only much
1028:
structure of sub-pages which are not even listed on the face of the portal, and in which alternative items are displayed only by the user-hostile mechanism of purging the page to get another random selection from the undisclosed set. It would be hard to devise a more perverse way of displaying
1098:. Topic is way too narrow - a capital city of only 1m people. Portal is effectively abandoned with no willing maintainers. Portal adds nothing over the main article+navbox (the navboxes are actually very good and probably contribute to the abandonment of the portal by editors and readers).
215:
claim that a topic is broad); (2) a large number of viewers, preferably at least 100 a day, but any portal with fewer than 25 a day can be considered to have failed; (3) portal maintainers, at least two maintainers to provide backup, with a maintenance plan indicating how the portal will be
832:
find that a small number of editors clutter up MFDs with spurious requests to treat portals as if they were articles. This repeated flogging of dead horses and serving of read herrings are significant part of the factors which have soured too many portal discussions this year.
1051:
These problems are structural and long-term. No amount of enthusiasm from one inexperienced editor can override the narrowness of scope, the lack of history, the lack of a supporting WikiProject and vast gap between the fine head article and the abominably-designed portal.
472:
I'm afraid that this is a valid forum for challenging the nomination, and there is no requirement for someone who wishes to continue improving this portal to shut up and wait for a DRV. Also, although this nomination contains the usual deletionist copypasta (there's even
1047:
shows no discussion ever, just 4 notices in the 8 years since the page was created. So there is no assessment process to help identify articles which might be included in the portal, and there is no pool of editors working on
Islamabad topics who might help maintain the
1029:
information, especially when the whole preview model is now redundant to the preview-any-link facility built into the
Wikimedia software and available on every page to logged-out readers (i.e. the vast majority of ordinary readers, for whom we build Knowledge (XXG)).
786:
is ten years out of date, but I don't see anybody deleting it. Unlike this portal, it does not update automatically. And "timeless" is an absolutely valid argument: if selected articles don't need any updates for ten years, why should a lack of edits be a concern?
969:
per delete votes above, and per the fact there is no good reason to keep such a portal as this. Low page views and the condition it is in mean zero value is added by such a portal. There is no policy or guideline which suggests this portal should exist. Portals
974:, being for navigation instead, so it is improper to try to compare dilapidated and useless portals to articles and say they should just be fixed. There is no reason to think that hoped-for improvements and long-term maintenance will ever materialize anyway,
916:
states: "Editing
Knowledge (XXG) is all about making improvements, not following rules. However, WP:IAR should not be used as a reason to make unhelpful edits." how is it helpful to delete a portal that editors are willing to maintain? -
1033:
larger and more globally-significant city portals have survived. Additionally, Islamabad is a modern, planned city whose panning began only in the 1950s. Its scope is therefore much narrower than a cit whose history goes back centuries.
807:
Kusma, we keep articles even when neglected, because they are they actual content of the encyclopedia. We hope that they may be improved, but in the meantime, they are our only content on that topic.
519:
shows
Pakieditor as having made only 1,009 undeleleted edits in their 15 months on Knowledge (XXG), plus 208 deleted edits. Those edits include the creation of six portals which were later deleted:
824:
By contrast, portals contain no unique content. Their function is to navigate and/or showcase content which is hosted elsewhere on en.wp. So a portal can be deleted without any loss of content.
195:
have been downgraded to the status of an information page and we have no real portal guidelines, we should use common sense, which is discussed in
Knowledge (XXG) in the essay section
723:, no convincing rationale for deletion has been given. Selected articles are mostly timeless, don't seem to have any major problems. Pageviews are nonnegative, which is good enough. —
552:
This is a pattern of editing we have seen many time sbefoire with portals: long-term neglect, then a flurry of edits when an MFD is opened, usually followed by resumed neglect.
454:. Updating articles also won't magically fix the portal's problems; an actual maintenance plan that takes into account the failures of many portals may be taken to
287:
Originator edits sporadically, last July 2019. Originated 2009. Article has weird peak of 82224 accesses on 27 Feb. Articles expanded to 36 on 2 Sept 2019.
1024:
By contrast, the portal has been neglected for a decade, offers a massively narrower range of topics, and hides its very limited contents within an absurd
978:
if promised at the last minute just to stave off deletion. Simple assertions that the topic is broad enough are entirely subjective; rather, that it is
758:
undermaintained areas must be deleted. Any future maintenance plans that actually take into account the failures of many other portals may be taken to
615:
But still, a portal needs maintainers. Unless there is some group of editors who can put the time into a portal, then that portal isn't viable. --
612:. Like everyone else here, you're a volunteer. You manage your own time as you see fit, and the community is grateful for whatever you can give.
163:
remove the backlinks? I have an AWB setup which allows me to easily replace them with links to the next most specific portal(s) (in this case
94:
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see that after all that discussion, and the sustained consensus on the principle on that portals are a tool to be judged by their utility, we
783:
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847:
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580:
181:
90:
872:. As these cities contain a large share the population of the country, nothing in the city portals can be foreign to the national portal.
17:
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1004:. This is yet another failed portal on a narrow topic, which has attracted neither readers nor maintainers, and offers significantly
762:. (Though personally, I don't believe cities make good topics for a portal at all, given that nearly every city portal was deleted.)
82:
216:
maintained. Any portal that does not pass this common-sense test is not useful as a navigation tool, for showcasing, or otherwise.
546:
I also note that in the months after those narrow portals were deleted, Pakieditor's portal-space contributions were all trivial
562:
maintainers and supporting WikiProjects. In this case we have only one inexperienced editor interested in maintenance, and
532:
1037:
947:
563:
372:
Originated 2009 by sporadic editor whose last edit was July 2019. Articles tweaked but not otherwise changed since 2009.
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of the arguments for deletion, but it's not enough. If pageviews are abysmally low, then time is better spent improving
1172:
40:
798:
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130:, who only maintained it for about a month. They haven't been as active, even though they did resume editing recently.
543:. So I don't see the good faith being accompanied by the experience and good judgement needed to maintain a portal.
609:
528:
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is a reasonably well-maintained B-class article, which provides good showcasing of sub-topics through its use of
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625:
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511:'s offer. I am sure it was made in good faith, but it doesn't look to me like a remedy to this portal's neglect.
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replacement of links rather than redirection, as proposed by BrownHairedGirl, to avoid surprising our readers.
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Originated 2008 by sporadic editor who last edited July 2019. Little or no maintenance on articles since 2008.
751:
540:
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133:
Sixteen selected articles, none of which were extensively updated since 2009 outside of routine maintenance.
86:
429:- Give me some time, I'll update articles, though they don't need much maintainance due to their subject.
677:
590:
Can't give all of my time for maintaining portals and their wikiprojects, or
Knowledge (XXG) in general.
29:
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below.
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36:
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utility than the head article in respect of both the key portals functions: navigation and showcasing.
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Originated 2009 by sporadic editor. Articles have been tweaked since 2009 but not otherwise changed.
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I do not think individual cities are a broad enough subject area to deserve a portal on their own.
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
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A further problem with this portal is that it lacks an accompanying WikiProject. Yes,
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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was right about some things, including that portals need both
477:
for it), we are here to examine Portal:Islamabad rather than
549:, until they began s flurry of activity once the MFD opened.
405:- Low viewing, low number of articles, little maintenance.
222:- The table below shows that the other two city portals in
155:. I don't want in any way to prejudge the outcome ... but
1044:
1041:
550:
547:
102:
98:
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exists; but it has been tagged as inactive since 2011.
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is inactive. That's a recipe for continued failure. --
115:
Average daily pageviews in the first half of 2019 are
159:
you close this discussion as delete, please can you
750:"Timelessness" isn't a valid argument to use here.
1123:for whether a topic is broad enough for a portal.
912:- Editors here are willing to improve the portal,
43:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1175:). No further edits should be made to this page.
1021:, and excellent navigation through its navboxes.
1043:And it seems never to have really existed: the
8:
245:
209:by a breadth of articles (not only by an
167:), without creating duplicate entries. --
684:be omitted. Please provide a rationale.
126:Created in 2009 by the only maintainer,
18:Knowledge (XXG):Miscellany for deletion
533:Portal:Pakistan International Airlines
478:
450:I'm afraid your vote qualifies under
7:
1119:. Islamabad seems too narrow per my
299:Jan19-Feb19 pageviews were 74/17889.
48:The result of the discussion was:
1081:we doon't need city portals period.
226:do not have much better metrics.
137:Time to just delete this already.
24:
784:Nordfriesland – Dithmarschen Nord
507:I suggest caution in considering
1151:namespace and properly sourced.
123:for the parent article (.651%).
1:
1156:08:25, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
1143:05:27, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
1108:17:05, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
1091:17:50, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
1072:15:21, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
853:13:12, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
635:00:04, 11 October 2019 (UTC)
600:16:19, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
586:12:51, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
529:Portal:Transport in Pakistan
479:the failures of many portals
64:22:30, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
997:16:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
960:15:22, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
927:00:06, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
905:17:59, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
888:16:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
803:16:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
772:16:17, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
739:15:10, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
712:01:45, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
702:apply their own judgement.
694:16:17, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
665:13:13, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
491:01:45, 5 October 2019 (UTC)
468:16:17, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
439:08:05, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
415:22:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
236:22:51, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
187:21:58, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
147:19:41, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
1195:
868:all cities of Pakistan to
537:Portal:Economy of Pakistan
698:...or perhaps the closer
521:Portal:Islamic Golden Age
1165:Please do not modify it.
1038:WP:WikiProject Islamabad
948:the inactive WikiProject
938:That definitely weakens
564:WP:WikiProject Islamabad
541:Portal:Roads in Pakistan
32:Please do not modify it.
1045:history of its talkpage
421:Pakistan cities portal
119:for the portal versus
1026:Rube Goldberg machine
153:Note to closing admin
1115:selected content to
199:and in the article
944:the parent article
255:Article Page Views
111:Neglected portal.
1070:
1013:The head article
851:
633:
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525:Portal:Rawalpindi
394:
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252:Portal Page Views
242:Pakistani Portals
193:Portal Guidelines
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610:WP:NOTCOMPULSORY
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197:Use Common Sense
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78:Portal:Islamabad
70:Portal:Islamabad
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1173:deletion review
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987:-Crossroads-
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829:
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755:
752:Common sense
724:
720:
699:
681:
680:, this vote
678:WP:JUSTAVOTE
660:
656:
651:
604:Of course, @
559:
426:
402:
219:
210:
206:a posteriori
204:
201:common sense
160:
156:
152:
136:
110:
49:
47:
31:
28:
55:‑Scottywong
1083:Catfurball
1058:HairedGirl
839:HairedGirl
754:says that
621:HairedGirl
606:Pakieditor
592:Pakieditor
572:HairedGirl
509:Pakieditor
475:a template
446:Pakieditor
431:Pakieditor
191:Since the
173:HairedGirl
1169:talk page
1015:Islamabad
397:Islamabad
386:Pakistan
358:Pakistan
330:Pakistan
307:Islamabad
37:talk page
1171:or in a
1121:proposal
1067:contribs
866:Merge up
848:contribs
630:contribs
581:contribs
560:multiple
517:Wikiscan
452:WP:MERCY
278:Pakistan
267:Articles
258:Comments
224:Pakistan
212:a priori
182:contribs
39:or in a
1113:Upmerge
1048:portal.
914:WP:IAR?
335:Karachi
264:Percent
220:Comment
91:history
1148:Delete
1096:Delete
1079:Delete
1063:(talk)
1002:Delete
967:Delete
952:ToThAc
897:SD0001
893:Delete
877:bd2412
844:(talk)
779:ToThAc
764:ToThAc
760:WP:DRV
704:Certes
686:ToThAc
626:(talk)
577:(talk)
556:WP:POG
483:Certes
460:ToThAc
456:WP:DRV
403:Delete
375:244.38
363:Lahore
347:253.44
319:153.60
290:225.41
178:(talk)
139:ToThAc
50:delete
1056:Brown
837:Brown
830:still
790:Kusma
746:Kusma
726:Kusma
672:Talha
657:Talha
619:Brown
570:Brown
378:0.41%
350:0.39%
322:0.65%
302:Asia
293:0.44%
284:15328
270:Notes
261:Ratio
249:Title
171:Brown
128:Talha
99:watch
95:links
60:| ||
16:<
1153:Nemo
1104:talk
1087:talk
1006:less
993:talk
976:even
956:talk
923:talk
910:Keep
901:talk
768:talk
721:Keep
708:talk
700:will
690:talk
682:will
676:Per
652:Keep
596:talk
487:talk
464:talk
435:talk
427:Keep
411:talk
369:1955
341:2281
313:1536
232:talk
143:talk
121:1537
103:logs
87:talk
83:edit
1065:• (
980:not
946:or
940:one
846:• (
756:all
628:• (
608:.
579:• (
180:• (
161:not
1106:)
1089:)
1052:--
995:)
958:)
950:.
925:)
903:)
833:--
801:)
770:)
737:)
710:)
692:)
654:-
598:)
539:,
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