2126:. Parser functions are a great tool for producing automagic templates, which provide increased functionality and code readability. We should provide automagic templates for basic conditional behaviour, which should be used in settings where non-programmer editors are likely to need to read and understand the code without learning yet another syntax. The template will never be changed, so its effect on resources will be negligible. In any case, keep the history to preserve a record of a time when Knowledge (XXG) community showed its collective intelligence and resourcefulness and created a complete set of new useful behaviour out of almost nothing.
1191:: this template deletion discussion is currently the top item on the community portal. As such, I feel it is my duty to raise my hand and say that I have no idea what this template does. Can someone please explain it in case other clueless non-developer people are coming here? If I had just stumbled across this in some random corner of Knowledge (XXG), I'd be inclined to just mutter "not my business" and stumble on my way - but since someone put this in such a prominent place, I think we need to explain this to the
1810:, but I feel pretty comfortable using them nonetheless. I think "keep it simple" is a very good goal. Having conditionals that allow some fraction of the editors to create templates that simplify editing for others is not creating a barrier to editing, but rather is providing a valuable level of customization between "developer" and "editor". Conditionals are actually helping "keep it simple" by providing a (very minimal) macro language for extending the wiki. I think
811:(*fD is showing us what a straitjacket it is again :). Here the logical thing to do is to 1) get the word from Tim that the expression syntax is stable (we don't care about implementation but syntax is important) and then 2) migrate slowly but surely across to the new syntax (using e.g. JamesF's bot) making sure everything works as expected. So that's somewhere in between keep and delete I suppose :).
1034:-- I hate to say this, since by all accounts the new syntax is what we've been demanding. But the heavy use of this tool positively asserts its importance. By all means, deprecate its use -- as publicly as possible. Every possible place where an editor might go to learn about writing templates should have clear instructions that point out the currently accepted method
1402:
Oh, don't get me wrong: I'm not arguing that qif is better. I'm only making the point that #if is not currently working as designed and so isn't yet ready to replace qif. I think ParserFunctions is a fabulous improvement and I hope that bug gets squashed soon so we can start using it without breaking
317:
Cosmetics are only a concern in the article namespace. Ideally, no templates should be substed into the article namespace anyway. Using parser functions we can reduce these some of these ridiculous 5+ layer deep templates to a single call, and use them, as
Pathoschild puts it, practically for free. —
127:
This template should now be deprecated so that we can use the {{#if:}} syntax available in
Wikimarkup. Doing so would put considerably less strain on the servers, slightly reduce exposure to vandalism (if a rogue admin decides to crash Knowledge (XXG), he can't do it by editing a meta-template), etc.
656:
Ahem. For the record, the above statement and
Johnleemk's, "Some people appear overly attached to {{qif}}" are both completely uncalled for. The creator of this template was AzaToth... who then went and put together a MediaWiki alternative very similar to what Tim eventually installed. Other leading
1255:
and template paramaters, and template inclusion. Nothing else. The correctness of qif can be mathematically proven. Simple thing for basic logic. Some people were just surprised that these basic things can be used to create qif. qif has already been there. Because it is possible to create it. And
681:
suggest that it would be prudent to hold off on mass conversions until the 'trial period' was over, but since some users are determined to save us from the (largely fictional) evils of 'qif' that ship has sailed and we'll just have to hope that there are no further format changes to #if: or other
1019:
Then why are we bothering with a delete discussion? Templates can be migrated without a discussion to delete qif. There is also the historical compatibility issue, which is a further argument to migrate and deprecate, but KEEP. So, repeat after me, IT IS PREMATURE TO DISCUSS DELETION AT THIS
1256:
it's no virus, no hack and it does not rely on shaky features. Just for the records. Come on. Knowledge (XXG) is not a kindergarten. We also have articles about quantum physics. I'm sure nobody requests the removal of them only because they are not understood by the masses :-) --
301:
which are no longer used but in talk archives and the like. These break when qif is deleted. What should be done with them? Please note that they cannot be substed because qif cannot be substed. As a side note: a template using #if looks equally awful when substed.
936:
are still on trial (debug?) mode, so they're not completely stable, so start slowly deprecating it while keeping the template for backup purposes. I've got no objection to deleting it once it is reasonably safe to assume that any potential bugs have been quashed.
1158:. It is pretty obvious that there is no way back for Tim to remove #if. If he would remove #if why would he have created ParserFunctions then? Also the removal of #if would be fixed within 24h by the community by restoring qif (or under what name ever). --
682:
issues with it. So to sum up... this is not the 'great crusade against the promoters of QIF' that you paint it. The promoters of QIF were actively involved in testing and implementing #if: as a means of replacing QIF. We were the ones who lobbied
643:
Yes. That's so that we get an actual decision made, and that people other than those who created the template (and so would prefer to keep it, probably) get to see the discussion; the VP is useless for such things, and has been for years.
1614:
complicated, not more. The biggest reduction in complexity is that things can be done in fewer templates (since many optionals that would have formerly spawned offshoots of existing templates can now be included in the main template; see
1050:
step is to deprecate, so the problem does not grow. A trusted team should set out to migrate templates to the new syntax -- and please avoid making other "improvements" meanwhile, despite temptation. Leave a clear record.
231:. WP:AUM was said to not be deleted because it was once a policy, as policies do not get deleted (I was told). As WP:AUM was primarily created against qif, shouldn't qif be kept in the same way as historical as WP:AUM? --
242:
Pardon me for assuming bad faith, but I don't think keeping it in the template namespace would be a good idea. It wouldn't stop people from using it. I'm just barely gaining ground in the orphaning process as it is. —
113:
is not just any old template; it's one of the most commonly used templates on
Knowledge (XXG). It's effectively become a piece of Wikimarkup in itself. As such, I feel listing this on TfD would be inappropriate;
498:
problems... at least according to the lead developer and the observed reality of qif now being used vastly more than it was in the past and yet causing no trouble. Wait until the new methodology is stable and
494:
has had several features added, removed, or changed. The #if: function itself has been changed to work differently than it did originally. Further, the supposed 'server load' problems of qif simply
1042:{qif} once orphaned, replace it with an obvious colored banner box notice: Do Not Use. But retain the page itself; it's not as if it consumes resources that way. It's earned its quiet retirement.
1562:
for a whole bunch of templates which incorporate conditionals (and other calculations). I'm doing the programming, so that editors withou advanced programming knowledge don't have to. :-) --
391:; many of the developers have expressed a significant preference for the native wikimarkup syntax over the conditional metatemplates. As I understand it, the conditional metatemplates use
395:
calls to the database, which is expensive in terms of server resources. On the other hand, ParserFunctions are performed entirely by the Parser, and with cacheing they would be literally
214:
Question: how is this a fire hazard once it is deprecated and orphanned? Why can't we keep it as a historical template, duly marked as deprecated and with a thick pointer to the docu of
1369:
Comment: It's actually still buggy and breaks a number of templates that require outputting the text {{{1}}} conditionally to function. Until this is resolved, it can't replace {{
578:
784:
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immediately after that is done. All the other bizarre programming-type meta-templates should be given the same treatment as soon as the new parser functions allow. --
95:
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The MediaWiki software is a little complicated for the average user, but fortunately, most don't need to worry about it. I haven't looked at the code that supports
1020:
POINT. Contrary to what some people seem to think, the
Knowledge (XXG) servers are not going to spontaniously combust if this template isn't immediately deleted. —
2142:. However, to discourage rogue admins, establish a rule that if anyone vandalizes the template, they will be immediately blocked for a certain amount of time. --
1785:
for them to learn. Finally, see Ed's comment above; many new editors won't touch templates because most of them cover everything they want them to do already. —
283:, which was blanked and protected by you while I was in the middle of migrating hundreds of templates to the server friendlier qif. So much per the history. --
1251:
Because some people do not want to understand how qif works, doesn't mean it uses black magic. qif uses current functionality of the template system. It uses
138:, so I feel getting a broader consensus on this would be appropriate. To me, it is obvious that we now have something better, so why not officially deprecate
854:
I think this nomination is premature until Tim
Starling has completely and fully tested m:ParserFunctions so it is 100% more stable and efficient than qif.
420:
1415:
Nor me. But I'm not yet sure about the parser functions, some string functions would be very nice, and that would get us near server side scripting. --
1390:
1546:- Conditionals are evil, because they present a barrier to template editors who don't have advanced programming knowledge. Simple is good. --
802:
is successfully completed. As a developer myself, I worry about premature deletion of working software. Let's be guided by Tim on this one. --
1461:
Wait until the ParserFunctions are affirmed to be working fully and properly, then begin actively orphaning and list on TfD (concurrently).
2156:
1360:- it's working as designed, and it's fully documented. Alternative solutions will find their way when they are debugged and documented. --
556:); this template is of interest historically, so I strongly urge deprecating it and, once orphaned, blanking it and leaving it protected. —
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954:: NOONE IS SUGGESTING THAT THIS BE DELETED WITHOUT FIRST BEING MIGRATED TO PARSERFUNCTIONS AND THOROUGHLY ORPHANED. Go on, repeat it. -
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to the initial proposal should sufficiently establish 'support' for the idea. Contrary to various innuendos and outright insults the
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Err. The point of this discussion is to decide whether we should start replacing its use, as doing so is such a major operation.
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This MfD is putting the cart before the horse. Testing of #if should finished first, then the template should be deprecated. --
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proponents of 'qif' have been Locke Cole and myself... both of whom were also very involved in supporting the #if: replacement
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the new code is not mature or well tested enough. Even then, I see little reason to actually delete it once it is not used.
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2099:. An unusual vote I know, but this is something that should be their decision, since they know what they're talking about.
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the new code is not mature or well tested enough. Even then, I see little reason to actually delete it once it is not used
2188:
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is a very positive step forward in acknowledging this need and providing a better means to support it—and I hope that the
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NOONE IS SUGGESTING THAT THIS BE DELETED WITHOUT FIRST BEING MIGRATED TO PARSERFUNCTIONS AND THOROUGHLY ORPHANED. Done. --
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use #if ... I wouldn't think they'd want to mess up thousands of pages by not. Then again... it may be interesting.
1773:). IMO if you think conditionals are too hard for new editors, you could help expand the existing documentation for
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a
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1389:-constructs (not the template) its wikitext ouput after substitution can be messy, for an example see
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below.
2009:
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Upon completion of this MfD, and should the decision be to delete, this template should be placed in
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737:. This is a historic template and access to it should be fully preserved. I will happily help with
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to it's installation and amongst the first to start converting templates over to it. I believe my
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1840:"Machines are evil, because people who don't know how they work can't fiddle with them." Bah.
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orphanning. I trust Tim not to pull the plug on #if. #if works and it's time to use it. --
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Comment for the records: CBD is referring to the removal of the random function by Tim
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Ouch. Yes, that's entirely possible, and I imagine it was really hairy to read. :-) —
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Oh, ok. I've seen Qif being used as a switch, but I might just have a faulty memory.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Template%3AQif
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1236:#if is part of a mediawiki-extension (the software that runs Knowledge (XXG)) named
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when glitches with ParserFunctions are resolved'. I'm particularly referring to the
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the new '#if:' feature is no longer in a trial period. It has only been a week and
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No job for a fully automatic bot. Suggest using AWB instead. For example, due to a
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1174:, remove only when the other template works and other uses are orphaned properly.
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while orphaning and allow time for problems to emerge. This is not an emergency.
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potential problem. I'm happy to proffer the services of my bot to substitute it.
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That might be more convincing if some of them hadn't been removed already... --
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1323:(please scroll up). Does this replace or extend your previous decision? --
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WHO THE HELL IS NOONE AND SINCE WHEN HAS HE BEEN IN CHARGE OF WIKIPEDIA?
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Knowledge (XXG):Templates for deletion/Log/2006 April 18#Template:Ifdef
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as a historical template once parser functions is fully tested. –
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until the issues with the current implementation are shaken out. —
2205:
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
1290:. If we don't have any rogue admins then there isn't a problem.
835:
Ok, my answer is "yes, I would like us to start the migration."
754:(after having seen a lot of substing of qif-using-templates). --
706:
provided that the devs decide to keep ParserFunctions enabled.
1861:
once all instances have been replaced, per above discussion –
1391:
Knowledge (XXG) talk:Template substitution#Template:See_also
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Factually equally untrue as qif is the successor of deleted
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are extended somewhat—it's just a bit premature to discuss
433:, which prevents the conversion of certain templates. //
103:
First off, I need to explain why this is on MfD, not TfD.
2001:--I tend to think that if this is deleted then we just
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of course; but that is non-trivial. I suggest that the
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1227:{{#if}} does the same thing, but without black magic.
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in terms of server resources for most operations. //
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Another problem: We do have a set of once highly used
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until all uses are replaced by , as per CBDunkerson.
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for now. Yes this should absolutely be deprecated...
1877:
once most uses of {qif} have been replaced by {#if}
904:
as useless now that better options are available. --
2172:
Ermm... conditionally keep, Per King Of Hearts...--
2116:as a mnemonic alternative to #if, possibly move to
96:
Knowledge (XXG):Templates for deletion/Holding cell
39:). No further edits should be made to this page.
2215:). No further edits should be made to this page.
124:does not fit the mold of traditional templates.
2028:, to serve for another one of qif's functions.
1306:shows that all instances have been migrated to
1131:, parser functions aren't going to be removed.
1094:, and hold until all uses are fully orphaned.
270:Factually untrue - AUM predates qif by months.
189:. Obsolete, redundant, a total fire hazard. —
1600:Ignoring the fact that I support deprecating
350:. We no longer have a use for it, and it's a
8:
673:the use of #if: is Netoholic... the leading
627:Yet the discussion is under "Miscellany for
48:until testing of {{#if}} is completed, then
516:per AzaToth, if condition(s) not met, then
1211:programming functionality using some very
2114:Change to use the current syntax and keep
1332:Neither; I just like voting twice! ;-) --
686:this change. Please drop the attitude. --
171:For specific information about #if:, see
1916:until replacement is working properly. —
227:Addendum: qif was the central target of
18:Knowledge (XXG):Miscellany for deletion
1558:I take your point, but please look at
299:category:Deprecated citation templates
128:Some people appear overly attached to
7:
1610:, conditionals actually make things
1038:the interactions with substitution.
1215:features of the template syntax. —
1115:all uses with the new syntax, and
768:per Freakofnurture and JamesF. --
24:
2043:Comment: {{#switch:}} replaces {{
1968:if the replacement is working. --
1476:until testing has finished, then
798:says that the testing period for
1767:Knowledge (XXG):Qif conditionals
1082:, per CBDunkerson and xaosflux.
889:per xaosflux and CBDunkerson. —
823:See my comment to ericg, above.
1759:which handles everything those
1769:(recently updated to document
1265:Pardon me. I should have said
1:
44:The result of the debate was
916:once the testing period for
782:Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme
669:person I have seen arguing
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1070:. Meta-templates are bad.
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932:. As I understand it, the
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2194:Chat with Tdxiang on IRC!
1513:as above. Too early. --
986:Read after me: THE CABAL
873:#if is made permenant. —
415:I'm changing my vote to '
372:Template:Harvard citation
2208:Please do not modify it.
1571:And am I not surprised?
1253:m:Help:Parameter default
32:Please do not modify it.
2197:04:38, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
2167:04:17, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
2086:05:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
1848:23:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
1385:Yes, and unlike direct
81:02:36, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
1945:for the time being. --
1302:per Pcb21 Pete, until
454:if #if is here to be.
368:bug in ParserFunctions
2097:Defer to developer(s)
1908:) 2006-04-23 22:20:46
503:deprecate the old. --
370:, I couldn't convert
1720:Mtnbox start norange
2020:. We now also have
1978:Depreciate and keep
1745:as compared to the
374:from qif to #if. --
1680:Mtnbox start nopic
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914:Deprecate and Keep
704:Conditional delete
520:per CBDunkerson. —
514:Conditional delete
452:Conditional delete
1910:
1896:comment added by
1816:m:ParserFunctions
1779:m:ParserFunctions
1497:
1319:You already said
1238:m:ParserFunctions
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918:m:ParserFunctions
800:m:ParserFunctions
796:user:Tim Starling
752:blank and protect
492:m:ParserFunctions
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2140:Conditional keep
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2024:in addition to
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1650:Mtnbox coor dms
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952:Repeat after me
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934:ParserFunctions
920:is completed. —
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1808:{{CURRENTDAY}}
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1700:Mtnbox volcano
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2022:{{#switch:}}
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1892:— Preceding
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1819:
1804:{{PAGENAME}}
1782:
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1630:Mtnbox climb
1620:Mtnbox start
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1209:if-then-else
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538:Changing to
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320:Apr. 19, '06
296:
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245:Apr. 19, '06
194:
191:Apr. 18, '06
186:
168:
126:
102:
93:
87:Template:Qif
58:
49:
45:
43:
31:
28:
1982:Someguy0830
1740:Mtnbox prom
1640:Mtnbox topo
1560:my contribs
1213:black magic
1148:CBDunkerson
869:and relist
688:CBDunkerson
505:CBDunkerson
435:Pathoschild
401:Pathoschild
389:(see below)
281:template:if
2047:}}, not {{
1787:Locke Cole
1463:TimBentley
1310:format. --
1267:deep magic
1193:hoi polloi
708:Kirill Lok
677:of QIF. I
583:Locke Cole
558:Locke Cole
522:Locke Cole
426:glitch in
326:freakofnur
251:freakofnur
197:freakofnur
2080:Saxifrage
2053:Saxifrage
1898:Megan 189
1879:Lankiveil
1855:Deprecate
1833:Doug Bell
1749:template
1710:Mtnbox UK
1548:Netoholic
1521:Quidditch
1478:deprecate
1405:Saxifrage
1375:Saxifrage
1271:Saxifrage
1217:Saxifrage
1172:Deprecate
1121:The Anome
1109:Deprecate
1092:Deprecate
1068:Deprecate
1022:Doug Bell
922:Doug Bell
891:Saxifrage
780:- ditto.
729:Deprecate
576:See also:
544:John Reid
150:Johnleemk
50:Deprecate
2026:{{#if:}}
1990:contribs
1906:contribs
1894:unsigned
1820:deleting
1762:thirteen
1564:Uncle Ed
1448:TheFarix
1417:Omniplex
1395:Omniplex
1362:Omniplex
1334:Uncle Ed
1312:Uncle Ed
1269:then. —
876:xaosflux
825:James F.
804:Uncle Ed
770:Interiot
675:opponent
663:response
646:James F.
629:deletion
617:James F.
554:contribs
429:{{#if:}}
393:multiple
356:James F.
2144:King of
2101:the wub
1919:Nightst
1783:simpler
1435:Knucmo2
1350:Kotepho
1325:Ligulem
1292:Cynical
1258:Ligulem
1242:Ligulem
1229:Kaldari
1198:Johntex
1189:Comment
1160:Ligulem
1113:replace
1072:Kaldari
1053:Go slow
967:Ligulem
856:Zzyzx11
852:Neutral
756:Ligulem
750:...and
743:Ligulem
671:against
423:{{{1}}}
376:Ligulem
352:massive
310:Ligulem
304:Ligulem
285:Ligulem
233:Ligulem
220:Ligulem
59:kantari
2068:Harald
2051:}}. —
2045:switch
2033:Harald
2018:Delete
1999:Delete
1966:Delete
1875:delete
1859:delete
1747:single
1544:Delete
1466:(talk)
1431:Delete
1373:}}. —
1321:delete
1176:Stifle
1134:ed g2s
1117:delete
1096:Ral315
1044:Orphan
956:Splash
906:Jannex
902:Delete
859:(Talk)
828:(talk)
792:Delete
778:Delete
766:Delete
739:WP:AWB
649:(talk)
620:(talk)
496:aren't
417:Delete
387:Delete
359:(talk)
348:Delete
229:WP:AUM
187:Delete
2128:Zocky
1958:e Ong
1929:llion
1863:Gurch
1857:then
1842:John
1393:. --
1387:ifdef
1084:RexNL
1057:John
1048:first
1040:Blank
976:Pcb21
837:Pcb21
813:Pcb21
794:when
659:prior
633:ericg
605:ericg
488:after
338:: -->
263:: -->
209:: -->
169:Note:
55:Nacon
16:<
2105:"?!"
2071:Søby
2036:Søby
2007:gren
2003:will
1986:Talk
1943:Keep
1914:Keep
1902:talk
1887:Keep
1871:Keep
1845:Reid
1812:#if:
1612:less
1591:Toth
1511:Keep
1483:Will
1474:Keep
1453:Talk
1443:Keep
1358:Keep
1346:Keep
1308:#if:
1300:Keep
1288:Keep
1240:. --
1180:talk
1138:talk
1100:talk
1080:Keep
1060:Reid
1032:Keep
1006:Toth
979:Pete
939:Tito
930:Keep
887:Keep
867:Keep
840:Pete
816:Pete
734:Keep
732:and
667:only
601:Keep
548:talk
542:per
540:Keep
518:Keep
501:then
484:Keep
474:Toth
397:free
336:talk
330:ture
324:<
261:talk
255:ture
249:<
218:? --
207:talk
201:ture
195:<
154:Talk
46:Keep
2065:Jon
2049:qif
2030:Jon
2010:グレン
1947:Ter
1934:(?)
1826:qif
1806:or
1775:#if
1771:#if
1605:qif
1371:qif
1036:and
871:IFF
684:for
679:did
440:map
406:map
143:qif
133:qif
119:qif
108:qif
2190:贡献
2130:|
2124:}}
2121:if
2118:{{
1992:)
1988:|
1955:nc
1904:•
1829:}}
1823:{{
1793:•
1789:•
1757:}}
1751:{{
1743:}}
1737:{{
1735:,
1733:}}
1727:{{
1725:,
1723:}}
1717:{{
1715:,
1713:}}
1707:{{
1705:,
1703:}}
1697:{{
1695:,
1693:}}
1687:{{
1685:,
1683:}}
1677:{{
1675:,
1673:}}
1667:{{
1665:,
1663:}}
1657:{{
1655:,
1653:}}
1647:{{
1645:,
1643:}}
1637:{{
1635:,
1633:}}
1627:{{
1625:,
1623:}}
1617:{{
1608:}}
1602:{{
1517:WC
1495:)
1455:)
1433:--
1201:\
1195:.
1182:)
1136:•
1111:,
1102:)
943:xd
721:in
631:.
589:•
585:•
564:•
560:•
528:•
524:•
443:)
437:(/
409:)
403:(/
308:--
302:--
152:|
148:?
146:}}
140:{{
136:}}
130:{{
122:}}
116:{{
111:}}
105:{{
72:||
52:.
2185:翔
2180:鼎
2175:陈
2163:♠
2158:♣
2153:♦
2148:♥
2083:✎
2056:✎
1984:(
1951:e
1924:a
1900:(
1795:c
1791:t
1586:a
1581:z
1576:A
1573:→
1551:@
1534:✎
1529:☎
1500:T
1491:@
1487:(
1451:(
1408:✎
1378:✎
1274:✎
1220:✎
1178:(
1098:(
1001:a
996:z
991:A
988:→
894:✎
717:h
712:s
636:✈
608:✈
591:c
587:t
581:—
566:c
562:t
551:·
546:(
530:c
526:t
469:a
464:z
459:A
456:→
333:|
328:x
258:|
253:x
204:|
199:x
175:.
98:.
78:m
76:|
74:c
70:t
68:|
65:e
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