786:- not everyone uses the framework of Knowledge (XXG)'s policies, guidelines and alphabet-soup maintenance pages in the ideal manner in which they are intended. I feel we will forever have to accept that people with problems (often genuine) will on many occasions (and in good faith, sometimes) go to ANI when they should go to WQA, AIV, UAA, RFC and what-have-you. Yes it is not ideal, and the system is often broken, failing, leaking, farting, and so forth, but I feel that ANI serves as a necessary evil in that it is a place that catches all the inappropriate problems which should be going elsewhere. Yes it is drama-full, but to be honest I think as a group we can probably handle it.
759:- But I do agree that changes should be implemented. Clerking is the best solution I've seen proposed here. As to why we keep this board... It's simple. People post requests to AN and those requests get rerouted to ANI. If this page is deleted, those requests will have nowhere to go. The need for this board is patently clear, the problem is that it isn't always used properly. Clerks could ensure that it is. --
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but I agree with comments by others that deleting the board would just cause the issues to migrate elsewhere. My preferred option would be to decentralise ANI, as I feel that most issues brought to ANI can be dealt with at other noticeboards, the remainder could go to AN, but I think that's unlikely to happen, so happy to go the route of having the board moderated. That, at a minimum, is required.
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just move to other forums, we need to, as a community, state that the abusive beheavior needs to end, and then enforce this statement with more liberal applications of topic bans from AN and AN/I. There are users that spend far too much time on those boards, and generate far too little constructive input, we just haven't had the willpower to ask them to stay away from those boards.
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elsewhere rather than alleviated if we simply deleted ANI. However, for the reasons expressed by many, including myself, the tone, usage, and functioning of both AN and ANI need substantial improvement. My !vote is to keep the page but to convene an RfC on how the noticeboard system can best be adapted to the
Knowledge (XXG) of 2012.
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long-established pages such as ANI. The more correct procedure is to suggest marking them historical. The actual edit history should be kept available to admins and non-admins alike, and the deletion log shouldn't be treated as an archive. If the page history needs to be kept (almost certainly), then
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The board serves a useful purpose, and it fulfills that purpose on a regular basis. Human tendency is to focus on the problems while ignoring the positives (I am guilty of this myself sometimes), however there are positives here. Instead of deleting the forum, in which case the abusive behavior will
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redirects there. If a few users are needed to "clerk" the board to keep things in check, then so be it. Content disputes should be redirected to DRN (as I suggested back in June), "user X did something I don't like ZOMG" threads should be closed. I don't like ANI in the state it's in at the moment,
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sockpuppet issue here. That is not clearly given as a purpose for ANI or a method of dealing with certain cases of sockpuppetry so I wasn't sure about mentioning it on ANI. Seems part of the purpose for ANI in the eyes of some is to rapidly deal with issues that other processes would deal with more
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Perhaps the purpose of ANI should be more clearly defined, because that is the main reason I think people come here. Most do not see anywhere else that their specific concern could be legitimately raised and so they come here. It is taken as a sort of "everything else" board for raising concerns in
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A good question. Partially because too often there's an unhappy party and they reopen it, with the potential for drama, and partially I guess because we don't actually have a culture there of closing dead or any other threads that aren't somehow deemed important. If we could implement clerking that
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The nomination says that "ANI is primarily used to bash other editors and complain about their actions" and that legitimate issues can be handled
Administrators' noticeboard. Fair enough. But let's say ANI is deleted. How do you know AN won't also be used to bash other editors and complain about
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I propose we put
Fluffernutter on salary so they can quit their job, and give them a button that instantly closes threads and locks them. Fluffernutter (it's NOT a sandwich), this is 24/7, of course, though on Sunday's (or another day of your choosing) you may give the button to a trusted admin of
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The
Administrators' Noticeboards are not the place to raise disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour. Reports that do not belong at these noticeboards will be closed, and discussions will need to be re-posted at an appropriate forum, including the new dispute resolution noticeboard.
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There are few issues brought up at ANI that should be handled at ANI. Most of the issues brought up here are content/conduct disputes. The few issues that should be handled here, namely complex block requests, block reviews, and legal threat reports, can all safely be moved to the
Administrators'
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I think a deletion discussion may be a blunt force tool for real changes that could be proposed and discussed elsewhere. I rather liked the ideas of clerking as mentioned on AN, and such a structure could remove a lot of the chaff. Deletion indeed would just let teh dramaz settle out in other
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For what it's worth, I'm the person whose expression of concern last night on ANI (later moved to AN) sparked this discussion. I don't believe that outright deletion of ANI is a viable option; there are legitimate purposes of the page, and even the less useful purposes would merely be driven
168:- The page hardly seems to serve a helpful purpose in Knowledge (XXG) right now. About the only helpful use I see it being used for right now is for bringing urgent matters (like compromised accounts or suicide threats) to the attention of admins. However, those could easily be taken to
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this past week over issues were the editors in question did not even try to discuss the issue with me first. Too many editors are going straight to ANI as soon as they get involved in a dispute. ANI isn't dispute resolution, yet that is precisely what it is being used as.
435:. I'm genuinely undecided about this. On the one hand it would be bold, and I do agree that much of what is brought to AN/I belongs elsewhere. OTOH I can see the logic in the points above about the dramaaahhh just being displaced. I made an alternative suggestion at
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609:. We need to address the bad behavior, not the location where the behavior happens to be occurring, if we want the behavior to actually stop. Moderation will do more for this than deleting ANI and shifting the drama that happens there to somewhere else.
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There does need to be more moderation on the page, as it becomes a "bitch and moan" session by users, and in other cases like clockwork specific users (and I will not name names) will appear with the same complaints abotu the same issues or other users.
354:β I believe the concerns are genuine, however the problems arising from inappropriate posting at ANI are best taken up by dealing directly with those posting them - either redirecting them to the appropriate venue or applying sanctions as appropriate.
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This is all about user conduct. If prisoner after prisoner escapes from a prison, do you shut down the prison? No, you improve the safety routines. The goal to making ANI work is having routines for posting and better moderation.
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as above. People need a place to vent their frustration, unfortunately, and a Clerk and some moderation, but whatever system is used needs to become something more than just "I'm going to tell the Sysops on you!".
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575:"over issues were the editors in question did not even try to discuss the issue with me first" - it may be a good idea to close and hat all threads without diffs proving that problem was discussed and continues
1004:. As Drmies, Burpelson AFB and others point out above, what this really is is the choice whether to redirect the unending AN/I spew to WP:AN, and as a regular WP:AN visitor I have to say "no thanks" to that.
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853:- Reform needed, maybe a complete renaming that removes the "Administrators" word from the mix. But this is the centralized place for conflict resolution and abolishing it isn't going to abolish conflict.
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the articles, which in some cases distract people from the noticeboards. Seriously, the suggestions for moderation are worth exploring. Someone might create a page and see how it's received.
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about moving to a more moderated system for AN/I in which more constructive and businesslike discussion is actively encouraged. If this MfD fails I'll draft that up as a second option.
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836:. I think a lot of ANI is probably necessarily evil - and if we shut it down it will just seep elsewhere - but ANI in it's current form is unnecessarily deleterious to the community.
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662:- if the legitimate uses of ANI just migrate to AN, so will the dramafests. So deleting ANI won't accomplish anything, and just confound the different purposes of ANI and AN.
119:, several editors raised the possibility of deleting ANI. At present, ANI is primarily used to bash other editors and complain about their actions. As an example, I have been
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804:, and a whole noxious ecosystem feeding off that giant heap of crap. AN/I right now is much like the Thames in 1858. The solution then as now is to build new sewers. --
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224:. Drama junkies will just cause drama elsewhere. Deleting ANI would be akin to tossing your garbage over the fence and letting your neighbour deal with it.
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147:. We have dispute resolution processes for a reason. ANI simply adds fuel to disputes and creates excessive drama, and should therefore be deleted.
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per nom. A more decentralised approach, with different boards for different purposes, will help to reduce the drama cauldron effect. --
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I can't vote but ANI and AN is a constant source of lulz for vandals and trolls. You are feeding them by having this board around.
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Why did you have to close it? The discussion was productive and we seemed to be heading towards consensus that reform is needed.
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what ANI is being used as. There is very little brought up at ANI that shouldn't be handled elsewhere. The few things that
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a form of DR. This nomination is IMHO either based on misunderstanding of the individual purposes of those boards, or is
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If you delete ANI, editors will just go to AN and nothing will be solved. I suggest we implement clerking.
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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellaneous page below.
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950:- Deleting AN/I won't make the problems vanish, it will just redirect them to AN. Did deleting
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679:. Deleting ANI will just cause the drama to migrate. (Likely, as others have said, to AN).
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Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's
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to be handled. And the content disputes that tend to come through here can go through the
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need of administrative attention. On one occasion an admin suggested that I leave a
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Yes, but if the prisoners keep escaping, it might be better to use other prisons.
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Well, that's precisely the problem. If you only have one sewer, you get a
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your choosing (not me). Or, we give Bugs the job. (Yes, that's a threat.)
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the board. ANI has become a very toxic environment. There's a reason
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can those who !voted delete above please consider in future !voting
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are examples of past noticeboards that ended up marked historical.
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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate.
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AN and ANI have two separate and disprate purposes. ANI is
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I fully agree, ANI is not a form of DR. However, that is
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Seems reasonable. I'll notify some of the DR pages.
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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For a discussion of one possible reform, please see
493:Since this is pretty major, I tagged it as an RFC
546:Moderation might make sense, but not deletion. --
47:). No further edits should be made to this page.
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22:Knowledge (XXG):Administrators' noticeboard
131:noticeboard. Behavior disputes can be taken to
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644:, and seriously consider moderation options.
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412:should solve part of the problem at least.
397:So, why aren't these threads being closed?
958:? Leave AN/I alone, it's fine as it is. -
117:WP:AN#An overall concern about AN and ANI
832:, but for the love of all that is holy,
592:. This will just shift the mess to AN.
18:Knowledge (XXG):Miscellany for deletion
303:be handled at ANI can be resolved on
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52:The result of the discussion was
886:Keep, rename, moderate, and reform
269:. I'll AGF that it's the former. (
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956:personal attacks magically ending
906:the board, delete the trolls. --
611:A fluffernutter is a sandwich!
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987:- it's fine the way it is.
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1022:but for goodness sake,
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842:talk
830:Keep
788:S.G.
757:Keep
741:Keep
730:talk
685:talk
677:Keep
668:talk
660:Keep
642:Keep
630:talk
615:talk
607:Keep
598:talk
590:Keep
581:talk
567:talk
558:Keep
544:Keep
531:talk
512:ββββ
503:pack
480:talk
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418:talk
403:talk
336:talk
248:talk
229:lute
226:Reso
211:Wha?
199:ven
189:Keep
178:talk
135:and
115:Per
107:logs
91:talk
87:edit
818:466
710:466
263:not
222:Meh
1124:)
1110:}}
1104:{{
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388:β
381:β
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97:|
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