1047:. The article has been moved twice: Raymond Wong → Wong Yuk-man → Raymond Wong Yuk-man. As I must admit, the administrator seems to be oblivious about the naming of Hong Kong people, and I just (as a nominator) got one vote, like all other proposals that I've done. As I pointed out earlier, any Hong Kong ethnically Han person wouldn't mind being called Julie or Sandy or... Raymond. Transliterating Cantonese language isn't easy, but people chose "Wong Yuk-man" instead in February 2014. However, in the recent RM, administrator agreed to add back "Raymond" without removing the Chinese name, despite one vote. I would be in favour of relisting if the declining
270:(specifically those based on if Station is part of the proper names of the subjects of the various articles. ) The close was reasonable giving the arguments presented, specifically in regards to natural vs parenthetical disambiguation. However, the issue of if "station" is part of the proper names still needs to be considered as it is a separate issue. ( Yes the cited policy does cover "station" vs "Station" issue for proper names, but doesn't seem like the RM covered those details well enough. ) Was the close discussed with the closer before bringing it here? It might be possible to ask them to clarify the close in that regard and side step this MRV.
676:
the request, and no one objected over those 5.5 days, but it does seem like it would have been helpful to ping the editors who had already expressed opinions. If a single page was involved, relisting would seem to have been an option, but moving all the pages back and reopening in this case seems like a lot of work for questionable benefit. I'd hope that a compromise position--e.g., opening a new move request to lowercase titles, and having "no consensus" default to moving the pages to lowercase titles--might be sufficient in this case.
375:. Whether this is correct or not hinges entirely on whether the word "Station" is part of the station name. It was asserted that it was, but this was not discussed in detail. The guideline is clear that if the station name is "Greenbelt" then the article should be at "Greenbelt station", but if the station name is "Greenbelt Station" then the article should also have an uppercase S. The only thing that is at present unclear is the official name of the station.
593:. The closer seems to have accurately gauged the consensus. The spirit of the guideline is that if "Station" is typically capitalized in the relevant sources, it should be capitalized on Knowledge; if not, it shouldn't be. Beyond this minor issue, it appears there's universal consensus for the changes; no sense holding them up over a minor disagreement like this.--
653:'s last edit, of 24 Dec., is the one that clued me in to the problem. It would be good to hear from him to know whether he realized that the RM he closed had been modified after most of the support votes were in for the original lowercase "station" proposal. I expect he didn't realize, since he didn't mention.
1019:
While I can see how holidays and the ongoing protest might lower participation, it has been a week but it has been a week before any discussion of the close. So even if it had been relisted for an additional week would their have been more input? 8 months is more than the enough time for consensus to
942:
Given the history with past debates for the name of this article, it should have been relisted for further discussions. The last move request lasted a month, it seems premature to close the discussion given only a week of time was allowed on the second move request, and the community consensus on the
675:
Closer comments: I am not able to be very active at the moment, so it's good that so much discussion was able to be done here; I don't mind that this wasn't discussed with me beforehand. At any rate, I do not have particularly strong feelings about this. The proposal was changed with 5.5 days left in
524:
came in late in the RM, and led to the mid-stream change of case, and was not really discussed. My point is that it needs to be discussed if that's what the midstream change relied on; and it has not been, so the RM needs to be re-opened. I think you'll find, as you have already at subsequent RMs
1124:
that the opinions expressed are independent. The IP editor's comments and opinions are welcome and appreciated. As far as George's comments, I am not wholly "oblivious about the naming of Hong Kong people," but I don't have strong feelings about this either way. I would have relisted if there were
754:
Dick, I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would have no problem decapitalizing the Ss. I'm very pleased that these moves have occurred, and the big issue has been dealt with. If this move review results in decapitalizing, fine. If it results in reversing these moves, the core of which
1155:
Also, the last discussion was longer, but went five weeks between comments, including four without comments after relisting, and then the next comment had the edit summary "it's been a month and this still isn't closed?" so it doesn't strike me as the way we should want all move discussions to
306:
There should not need to be a new RM. For the majority of the time, the proposal was to move to lowercase "station". Every participant except one saw the proposal as lowercased. Only the last one saw the uppercase. It was changed at the last second, which was both inappropriate and contrary to
176:
After all but one of the "Support" comments were in, the proposal was changed from lowercase "station" to uppercase "Station", on the basis of some pictures of signs, as opposed to any evidence from reliable sources. A good proposal got turned into a bad one, and many of us did not notice. I
207:
was inappropriate, and is contrary to the USSTATION guideline endorsed by those in the discussion. None of these stations has "Station" as a part of their proper name, and hence, none of the "stations" should be capitalised. I believe that the articles should've been moved, but that the move
245:
That is correct. The closure was simply in error, and I believe that this occurred merely as an oversight. However, I'm of the opinion that it should just go to the lowercase as a result of this move review, as that result was clear. If more deliberation is necessary, reopening it is fine.
1119:
Comment from closer. It seems like aspersions are being cast on the IP user, either for being an IP user or for some possible allegiance to George. 67.70.35.44 is a frequent enough respondent in move discussions that the IP might as well be a username; I can type the IP from memory, and
329:
into the one-week listing period. So the names that were moved to were the names listed on the proposal for a majority of the time. It's conceivable that some participants never saw this change, but I suspect that at least some had the discussion on their watchlist and were aware of it.
973:
Has this been discussed with the closer before coming here? At the time of the close it was nearly a week since any input, so not sure what a relist would do. The options in the RM were different from the previous one and had arguments for so the close seems reasonable on first glance.
177:
appreciate the closer's efforts here, but I expect that he, too was likely unaware of this change (though it is briefly mentioned in a comment); he did not mention the issue in the close. A whole raft of new RMs has now been opened, citing this as a precedent for capitalization (e.g.
550:, the idea came up two days into the one-week listing period; calling that "late" is a stretch. And while I see comments calling for further disambiguation of certain stations in the other RMs, I don't see others that focus on the capitalization. Perhaps I've overlooked those. --
943:
naming decision was established by one supporting opinion from an IP user. The same IP user also supported all other the requested moves submitted by the same proposed user recently. I think article should revert back to its previous title and relist for more discussions.
846:
validity of moves, not their substance. And in this case, there's no question that the move was completely procedurally valid. The listing occured for just over the standard period of a week and had unanimous consensus in support. Decisions are made by those who show up. –
992:
We agreed on the title in the previous move after very long debate, so this move seems very unnecessary especially with such low participation in the discussion. With the ongoing protest in Hong Kong and being a holiday month, low participation seems to be expected.
446:, per nom. The fact that whether the proposed name was capitalized or not what changed in mid-RM has confused the entire nature of the RM, and it should be delisted for a proper discussion, especially if it's being questionably cited as "precedent" for anything.
731:" pending the outcome of this review have all been closed in favor of moving to upper case, in spite of the underlying issue never having been resolved here or discussed elsewhere, and in spite of some of the "support" votes supporting lowercase and following
755:
there was definitely consensus for, I will be quite disappointed. At this point, it might make more sense to close this discussion and either work out the capitalization issue centrally or have a separate, focused RM for the
Washington Metro stations. --
80:
Given the long absence of any admin willing to close this, and the original RM closer's support for re-opening via a new discussion to decide the case question, I have gone ahead and started that. Time to put this one out of its misery –
307:
USSATION, which most users spoke in favour of. I believe this was merely an oversight on the closer's part. No one is concerned about the disambiguation problem, or the new names. The only thing disputed is the capitalisation.
476:
I think it's speculative to say that capitalization change "confused the entire nature of the RM". If capitalization were at the crux of the initial proposal, certainly that could be the case. Rather, it was primarily about
1222:
on the IP editor. If you are not going to open a sockpuppet investigation (and one is not warranted here), please restrict your comments to the changes you would like to see to the titles of the articles in question.
1020:
be reevaluated. That said in the previous discussion "Raymond Wong Yuk-man" was also brought up as an option by multiple supporters. So even taking those comments into account seems to support this latest move.
702:
So we need to get clear about whether seeing
Station capitalized on sign posts overrides the many sources such as guidebooks that use lowercase and official station name listings that don't include the word
506:
per
Secondarywaltz. This capitalization need not apply to other systems, but as long as all WMATA stations have "Station" as part of their actual name, I don't see a good reason to deviate from that. --
1125:
ongoing discussion or the consensus were unclear, but these sorts of requests as a whole have not been attracting a lot of attention, no one objected, and actually there was a measure of support for
735:. This is a mess. I presume a reopen and discussion will apply to all of them, but it's not clear where to do it or how to get some actual attention on it. Maybe back at
1137:, but at that page too objections were made evident by dueling moves after the close and the initiation of a new discussion, not by asking to have the request reopened.
325:, you're entitled to your differing opinions, but asserting that the proposal "was changed at the last second" is demonstrably untrue. In fact, the proposal was changed
1275:
770:
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The spirit of the guideline is that if "Station" is typically capitalized in the relevant sources, it should be capitalized on
Knowledge; if not, it shouldn't be.
1051:
had not given the
British the 99-year lease of Hong Kong. I can't do anything about cultural differences between Chinese and Hong Kong and Macau cultures. --
284:
I did not discuss it with the closer, other than to notify him. I expect he'll comment here as to whether he overlooked the caps or intended it that way.
917:
181:), even though most of the support was for the lowercase station. This needs to be re-opened with attention called to the controversial capitalization.
392:
Each system should be judged on its own merits, and how stations are named in one place cannot be applied universally. The decision must be applied to
223:
This is a move review, not a place for your opinion on the renaming itself. I take it you mean the procedure was improper so it needs to be reopened?
773:, but nobody seems to care. I suppose it will take a re-opened multi-RM, which would be more sensible to start if someone would close this thing.
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1212:"someone is trying quietly make all these moves to this non-existing HK convention as that IP stalker is saying without notifying anyone"
396:
WMATA stations - and only those. Let's not drag this out because, once this party is over, there will be a lot of cleaning up to be do.
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FYI, People involved in the discussion are allowed to comment here/!vote here, but are expected to self-identify which George does "
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348:. The problem is that people who had already looked and seen no opposition to the lowercase might not have ever checked back.
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After all but one of the "Support" comments were in, the proposal was changed from lowercase "station" to uppercase "Station"
346:
After all but one of the "Support" comments were in, the proposal was changed from lowercase "station" to uppercase "Station"
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Why are there so few editors from the original discusiion here? I had trouble finding this. Should they have been notified?
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I am not personally connected to that IP person, but I knew he has been attending my proposals on Hong Kong people. --
568:. Which is true, and is the problem. Perhaps "late", a time-based term, is not a good way to describe this problem.
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so we can resolve it before the questionable result is further cited as precedents for capitalizing
Station. As
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Welcome back. Yes, that makes sense to avoid the work of moving them all again right way. In either case,
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in the previous discussion. I might also have relisted had I been asked before the article was brought to
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whether we sustain or overturn here, the result would be a new open RM discussion on that set of articles,
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You don't even want to wait for the closer to return from holiday and tell us what he thinks?
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As the person that proposed the original move, I think you have a conflict of interest here.
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I would presume they would notice via their watch list, but maybe not on
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Looking at the timestamps just seems very well coordinated, but that's just my opinion.
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485:. Even before the change, no editors were commenting on the capitalization. --
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since waiting for this to close no longer feels like it will ever converge.
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that you have opened, that multiple editors reject this premise.
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all WMATA stations have "Station" as part of their actual name
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True. That's why I was was careful and stated the problem as
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Talk:Route_772_(WMATA_station)#Requested_move_23_December_2014
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I strongly suggest you don't express such opinions as
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I've been trying to get some discussion going back at
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Talk:Greenbelt
Station#Requested move 7 February 2015
727:– the bunch of RM discussions that I had asked to "
199:– Many of the supporters based their opinion on
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842:. As a reminder, MRV is about assessing the
866:The following is an archived debate of the
268:Endorse without prejudice against future RM
208:should've been to the lowercase "station".
100:The following is an archived debate of the
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787:OK, I've started a new discussion at
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816:of the page listed in the heading.
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1133:; there is a similar problem at
1250:The above is an archive of the
1218:on the part of George and is a
812:The above is an archive of the
444:Return to RM without prejudice
373:Return to RM without prejudice
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1233:17:42, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
1206:17:27, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
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1166:06:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
1147:06:50, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
1109:18:28, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
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857:15:41, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
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191:23:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
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984:21:33, 9 December 2014 (UTC)
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801:17:14, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
783:16:37, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
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749:01:09, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
717:16:52, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
686:04:11, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
91:01:35, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
1214:, which does not appear to
663:07:01, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
645:20:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
620:17:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
606:17:00, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
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564:My original statement was
1257:Please do not modify it.
873:Please do not modify it.
819:Please do not modify it.
107:Please do not modify it.
1135:Talk:Gary Fan Kwok-wai
390:Decision was correct.
18:Knowledge:Move review
1127:Raymond Wong Yuk-man
884:Raymond Wong Yuk-man
835:Raymond Wong Yuk-man
43:Move review archives
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197:Support lowercasing
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166:
159:
153:
146:
138:
130:
123:
119:
116:
115:
114:
113:
110:
108:
103:
98:
97:
92:
88:
84:
79:
75:
74:
70:
69:
68:
67:
62:
61:2014 December
59:
49:
46:
44:
41:
39:
38:2014 November
33:
32:
23:
19:
1256:
1249:
1185:
1070:
1041:Weak endorse
1040:
994:
970:
944:
941:
872:
865:
843:
839:
833:
818:
811:
737:WP:USSTATION
733:WP:USSTATION
728:
724:
723:
704:
699:
691:
590:
565:
521:
503:
450:
443:
410:
393:
389:
372:
345:
310:RGloucester
267:
249:RGloucester
211:RGloucester
201:WP:USSTATION
196:
175:
106:
99:
77:
71:
60:
48:2015 January
1252:move review
1049:Qing Empire
868:move review
814:move review
451:SMcCandlish
323:RGloucester
205:late change
102:move review
844:procedural
696:Cuchullain
649:Hm, yes.
634:Cúchullain
595:Cúchullain
483:WP:CONCISE
479:WP:NATURAL
1172:George Ho
1156:proceed.
1053:George Ho
707:at all.
377:Thryduulf
78:Withdrawn
1270:Category
1225:Dekimasu
1158:Dekimasu
1139:Dekimasu
1101:PaleAqua
1022:PaleAqua
976:PaleAqua
793:Dicklyon
775:Dicklyon
741:Dicklyon
725:Addendum
709:Dicklyon
678:Dekimasu
655:Dicklyon
612:Dicklyon
570:Dicklyon
527:Dicklyon
429:Dicklyon
350:Dicklyon
327:two days
286:Dicklyon
272:PaleAqua
225:Dicklyon
183:Dicklyon
83:Dicklyon
20: |
1197:discuss
1082:discuss
1045:has not
1006:discuss
971:Endorse
956:discuss
924:archive
903:history
840:endorse
705:station
591:Endorse
504:Endorse
411:Comment
158:archive
137:history
1191:Avatar
1076:Avatar
1000:Avatar
950:Avatar
698:says,
632:Huh?--
1131:WP:MR
1122:trust
931:watch
918:links
165:watch
152:links
51:: -->
16:<
1176:talk
1105:talk
1057:talk
1026:talk
980:talk
911:logs
895:edit
888:talk
853:talk
797:talk
779:talk
761:talk
745:talk
729:Hold
713:talk
659:talk
616:talk
574:talk
556:talk
548:Dick
531:talk
512:talk
491:talk
481:and
433:talk
419:talk
402:talk
381:talk
354:talk
336:talk
290:talk
276:talk
229:talk
187:talk
145:logs
129:edit
122:talk
87:talk
35:<
1099:".
934:) (
849:BDD
757:BDD
739:?
552:BDD
508:BDD
487:BDD
465:ⱷ≼
461:≽ⱷ҅
394:all
332:BDD
168:) (
22:Log
1272::
1229:よ!
1189:he
1178:)
1162:よ!
1143:よ!
1107:)
1074:he
1059:)
1028:)
998:he
982:)
948:he
936:RM
855:)
838:–
799:)
781:)
763:)
747:)
715:)
682:よ!
661:)
618:)
576:)
558:)
533:)
514:)
493:)
448:—
435:)
421:)
404:)
383:)
356:)
338:)
330:--
313:—
292:)
278:)
252:—
231:)
214:—
189:)
170:RM
89:)
76:–
1203:)
1201:?
1199:–
1195:(
1187:T
1174:(
1103:(
1088:)
1086:?
1084:–
1080:(
1072:T
1055:(
1024:(
1012:)
1010:?
1008:–
1004:(
996:T
978:(
962:)
960:?
958:–
954:(
946:T
938:)
927:|
921:|
915:|
907:|
899:|
891:|
886:(
851:(
795:(
777:(
759:(
743:(
711:(
657:(
641:c
638:/
614:(
602:c
599:/
572:(
554:(
529:(
510:(
489:(
463:ᴥ
459:¢
456:☏
453:☺
431:(
417:(
400:(
379:(
352:(
334:(
315:☎
288:(
274:(
254:☎
227:(
216:☎
185:(
172:)
161:|
155:|
149:|
141:|
133:|
125:|
120:(
85:(
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