153:. "Mr Christian, come here!" The story of Captain Bligh and Mr Christian is well known and ingrained into modern culture thanks to successful novels and film depictions. But are these accurate to historical events? Only superficially for the most part. The popular accounts commonly depict Christian as effectively forced into action by the incessant cruelty of a psychopathic Bligh towards the crew, but this is not borne out by the evidence—Bligh actually gave out an exceptionally low number of floggings for the time. The real captain's "violence" was one of towering rages and humiliating conversational put-downs, which along with other psychological stressors destabilised Christian to the extent that he deposed his mentor Bligh and seized the ship.
647:"Among the belongings Churchill left on the ship Bligh found a list of names that he interpreted as possible accomplices in a desertion plot—he later asserted that the names included those of Christian and Heywood." There seems to be a comma missing from between "ship" and "Bligh". Also, after the first hyphen, we say "he" which seeing as we speak of both Christian and Bligh, may add slight confusion. Suggest: "Among the belongings Churchill left on the ship was a list of names that Bligh interpreted as possible accomplices in a desertion plot—the captain later asserted that the names included those of Christian and Heywood." Or something like that.
252:"Relations between Bligh and his crew deteriorated after he began handing out increasingly harsh punishments, Christian being a particular target for verbal criticism and abuse" – the second part of this sentence doesn't quite fit with the first. "Harsh punishments" are not the same as "verbal criticism and abuse". (We might go into Pedant-overdrive while we're at it and ask what form criticism can take that is non-verbal). I'd be inclined to end the first sentence at "punishments" and roll the rest of it into the following one.
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670:"By 1 April the work was done, and on 5 April 1789" →"By 1 April the work was done, and four days later..." or "By 1 April 1789 the work was done, and four days later..." My thinking here is that it could be confused with them leaving the following year as some may think we are still in 1788. It also required me to flick back up the article to remind me what year we were in.
736:– Gents, I have now finished reading and I have no further comments. It is beautifully written, thoughtfully illustrated, very well sourced and researched and more exciting than perhaps any book or film that has come since. I can honestly say that this is the best article I have read this year, if not the last two.
339:
Yes, essentially—the
Articles of War were the regulations under which the Navy operated. The notable thing here is that rather than attempting to deal with Fryer's defiance man-to-man, Bligh pointedly made a public spectacle in front of all those Fryer outranked, knowing that Fryer could hardly then
183:
This is a very fine piece of work, and I have precious little to offer by way of suggestion. You might perhaps expand the lists of runners by putting an asterisk against the mutineers, and possibly adding another column saying where/how each crew member died, if known. There are a lot of names for
1215:"Appointment to Cook's ship, at the age of 21, was a considerable honour, although Bligh believed that his contribution was not properly acknowledged in the expedition's official account." There's considerable jumping around in time right here, and a "had been" may be justified.--
470:
In passing, there is a pub in
Cockermouth called the Fletcher Christian: it is on the left in this picture of the man who invented salad cream. I often pass it, and I shall adjourn there next month with my brother and drink a toast to the Bounty and its learned historians.
1449:
I've looked over the edits and they are fine. I'd more clearly state Bligh's success bringing breadfruit to the West Indies. There are two rather vague references to a second, successful breadfruit expedition, and you and I know what that means but the reader might
1416:
Thanks, Gary, for the Tahiti images, and apologies for the delay in acknowledgement – my email is having difficulties firing up. The pics include one of the Bounty memorial stone - could you upload this, as I think it would make a fine image for the article?
491:
I shall have to lead an excursion to
Cockermouth one day just so I can visit the Fletcher Christian—perhaps as a detour on the way up or back home when Luton play at Carlisle. Thank you for your extremely kind words and the helpful notes, Tim.
928:"There were persistent clashes with the native population, culminating in a pitched battle in which 66 islanders were killed and a large number wounded" -I think this could use some elaboration here and more detail on some of what happened.
541:"Among these was Fletcher Christian, 23 years old, from a wealthy Cumberland family descended from Manx gentry." → "Among these was the 23-year-old Fletcher Christian, who came from a wealthy Cumberland family descended from Manx gentry."?
1295:
I've attempted to rephrase to clarify that this does not extend to the time of the sexual assault scandal of 2004—"a community that over the next century became celebrated as an exemplar of
Victorian morality". Is this okay?
865:
Link and Thames added. No dates are given for the refitting work, but by inference this would be during the summer of 1787, as the ship was acquired in May and left
Deptford in October. I don't think we need more than this.
858:"Bounty was refitted under Banks's supervision at Deptford". Can you link the full Deptford Dockyard here, and add "on the River Thames", otherwise it looks like a village initially. Also what date was it refitted?
159:
and I hereby present our account of the real life incident, in my opinion a far more complex and interesting occurrence than the simplified version presented in the fictionalised accounts. All comments welcome.
935:
There's not a lot of information in the sources, except that it was the culmination of constant clashes, mainly over property and women. I've added that bit, but there are no details of the actual fighting.
368:
Hence "virtually" as opposed to "completely". The
Admiralty had Pitcairn marked incorrectly so it could not co-ordinate any search mission there. Pitcairn is hard to get to even today. —
255:
I've redrawn to "Relations between Bligh and his crew deteriorated after he began handing out increasingly harsh punishments, criticism and abuse, Christian being a particular target." —
891:
ah, you do later explain "his lieutenant's pay of four shillings a day (£70 a year) contrasted with the £500 a year he had earned as captain of
Britannia". so should be OK.
336:"he summoned the crew and read the Articles of War" – I take it this is a naval equivalent of formally reading the Riot Act, but an explanatory footnote might be helpful
218:
That apart, there are, to my mind, a few blue-links that didn't oughter be there. We are bid not to link the names of major geographic features and locations, which,
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1186:"Captain James Cook's third and final voyage (1776–80)" well, if you are inclined to be picky about things, you might note that Cook didn't make it past 1778.
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No problem, will look over your changes today when I am more awake. I sent Brian some photos I took on Tahiti, possibly he will forward them to you.--
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Do we know why
Christian lent Bligh money? Being stuck on a ship in the middle of the ocean, I can't imagine he'd need it for anything?
388:"by 1794 the six Tahitian men" – I think this is the first we've heard of there being six of them, but it reads as if we already know.
280:"Although Christian was willing..." – I'm not sure of the import of the "Although", which seems to deny a causality that I can't spot
754:
Thanks for your nitpicks and for these exceedingly generous comments. Maybe save the support for the FAC – more use there, I think?
620:
This was during the five weeks they were docked at the Cape of Good Hope. Christian probably wanted some money to spend on shore. —
442:
That really is my lot. I learned a lot from this article and am grateful to you both for a most enjoyable and intructive read. –
192:
here to avoid "giving the ending away", as it were—a more complete list along the lines you describe is at the companion article
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In the cultural legacy section, I think the
Nordhoff/Hall books did much to popularise the story even before the 1935 movie.
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for example). The inclusion of both forms right at the start, and "HMS" thereafter, was my attempt to reflect this. —
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Thank you for the offered support and the extremely kind words, Cassianto. I'm glad you enjoyed the article. —
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Thank you for the copyediting and the kind words, Dan. As always a pleasure to have contributions from you. —
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Thank you for all this help Gary. I've attempted to clarify. I hope you're well; have a great weekend. —
1154:" captain Lieutenant William Bligh, " the juxtaposition of ranks suggests that a comma might be inserted
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We say above when they leave Tahiti that there were "20 Polynesians, of whom 14 were women". —
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This seems excellent so far and I'm enjoying it more on every section, more to come.
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the reader to remember and distinguish between (Heywood and Hayward don't help!)
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Thank you for this, Wehwalt—very helpful. I'm glad you like the article. —
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FAC which I was reading at the same time. I shall support nonetheless.
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I've added a nod to these. Hopefully it fits into the prose well. —
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Always been interested in this story ... very little to comment on
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Superb account, very difficult to find anything to mention here.♦
461:
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I actually made a conscious decision to leave this information
1262:
Peckover was 39 and Lebogue was 40 (according to Wahlroos). —
308:"Adverse winds and weather" – aren't winds part of weather?
1040:
under Christian". It's a really engaging, gripping article.
1028:. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (
1255:
Is it possible to give the ages of Peckover and Lebogue?
807:
Yes, Cass, we'll go for a walk later. No, chilly, dear!
1134:
Out of curiosity, what do contemporary documents say?--
141:
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1288:... there is a certain irony in your phrasing, beware.
587:
Third para we introduce Peckover again with "gunner".
365:"virtually inaccessible" – but they had accessed it.
567:
Because the word would not be used that way today. —
1233:I've attempted to redraw this; is it better now? —
650:I've used your suggested wording—thanks for this —
984:Thanks for these comments, small fixes all done.
199:, which is linked from the top of that section. —
1345:I think the article lives up to the subject.--
910:I imagine the meaning is pretty widely known?
712:Thank you for all of this so far Cassianto. —
70:
8:
1431:Glad to have them of use. I've uploaded it
768:Doh! Of course, I became confused with the
150:This peer review discussion has been closed.
518:Reading through now, comments to follow...
419:Have changed to "overbearing" as in lead. —
245:Prose points, of astonishing unimportance:
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673:Redrawn as you suggest—good catch —
1193:Added a footnote to clarify this —
1101:What's the whole HMS v HMAV thing?
24:
1286:didn't last into the 21st century
514:Nautical Nitpicks from Cassianto
416:"an unjust tyrant" – tautology?
564:Why are you quoting gardeners?
1:
311:Trimmed to just "weather" —
1523:
1091:stone, Venus Beach, Tahiti
1478:03:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
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835:Comments from the Doctor
823:16:28, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
803:15:51, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
785:15:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
764:14:19, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
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174:22:07, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
964:Link Portsmouth Harbour
544:Good revision; cheers —
340:refuse to co-operate. —
179:Comments from Tim riley
1507:June 2015 peer reviews
1092:
1044:are my edits. - Dank (
1036:I copyedited down to "
954:Link Tahitian language
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18:Knowledge:Peer review
839:Reading shortly...♦
28:Mutiny on the Bounty
1080:Comments by Wehwalt
1002:Thank you Doctor. —
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194:Complement of HMS
903:Link cannibalism?
142:Watch peer review
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1419:Brianboulton
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117:Article talk
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972:Dr. Blofeld
959:Retribution
843:Dr. Blofeld
362:Settlement
104:visual edit
1468:Cliftonian
1395:Cliftonian
1363:Cliftonian
1329:Cliftonian
1300:Cliftonian
1266:Cliftonian
1237:Cliftonian
1197:Cliftonian
1165:Cliftonian
1116:Cliftonian
1062:Cliftonian
1006:Cliftonian
853:Background
793:Cliftonian
716:Cliftonian
677:Cliftonian
654:Cliftonian
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571:Cliftonian
548:Cliftonian
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395:Cliftonian
372:Cliftonian
344:Cliftonian
315:Cliftonian
287:Cliftonian
259:Cliftonian
230:Cliftonian
203:Cliftonian
164:Cliftonian
812:Tim riley
777:Cassianto
741:Cassianto
699:Cassianto
523:Cassianto
476:Tim riley
447:Tim riley
283:Redrawn —
220:me judice
1501:Category
1026:Comments
1452:Wehwalt
1437:Wehwalt
1412:Wehwalt
1379:Wehwalt
1347:Wehwalt
1217:Wehwalt
1136:Wehwalt
733:Support
127:history
108:history
94:Article
36:Toolbox
1473:(talk)
1450:not.--
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1368:(talk)
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1089:Bounty
1067:(talk)
1038:Bounty
1011:(talk)
898:Mutiny
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642:Tahiti
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196:Bounty
169:(talk)
1181:Bligh
1042:These
277:Crew
249:Lead
136:Watch
16:<
1456:talk
1441:talk
1433:here
1423:talk
1391:OK —
1383:talk
1351:talk
1221:talk
1161:OK —
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1110:here
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590:OK —
536:Crew
481:talk
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226:OK —
123:edit
100:edit
1435:.--
1032:)
190:out
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78:e
71:t
64:v
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